Wake up people ! Transmutaion is not for lazy scrubs.

STEVIL

NolaArch wrote: »

@STEVIL The question I keep asking myself is, why would anyone who strictly quests be in need of the crystals in the first place? I cannot think of one reason why anyone who only runs quests would need dropped gear in ideal traits. There are perfectly viable --very viable!-- crafted sets that can be crafted in ideal traits.

What I'm asking is: Why would someone who doesn't run the content that drops crystals need crystals to re-trait an item that drops from the content where you would also receive crystals?

ETA: Before it's mentioned, sure, overland gear. But you can just buy that stuff in guild stores, or farm it solo while you quest. Rarely is it difficult to find an overland piece in an ideal trait from the many sources available in game already.

Well see this is where i simply go "what the hell?"

See, while i dont know why anyone would **need** vanilla ice cream when butter pecan exists... i do not then pose that need in the form of some question about why ice cream stores sell it.

i dont know why someone would need a red car, but that does not in anyway push into why they are made and sold to those who want them.

need is not a prerequisite for want ot enjoy and neither is you understanding why they need it.

In short, your desire for them to justify themselves is not their problem.

Artis

Mojmir wrote: »

if you can only do the quests once, wheres the problem? id be more apt to give a stone for something not repeatable than anything else.

I have no problem.It just makes no sense to say stuff like "waaa we are shut out" in this case. Because, I'm a quester, too. (If there's such a type of player). I completed all quests in 2014 and every DLC when they came out. Will I get my crystals or am I shut out of the system then? And then look, when he gets called out on being inconsistent , he pretend he wasn't addressed. But it's ok, I'll ask again.

@STEVIL you missed this comment and forgot to reply to it.

1)
i love the logic that those doing content A are not shut out they can just stop doing content A.

You are right. We can toss aside the main questline of the core game, all the zone quests, all the side quests all the other such stuff that are not "worthy" enough to need to think about traits at all and go do the dungeons that matter.

That's not that logic. You don't need to stop doing content A. You can do content A and content B.In your case it's even easier - it's the quests you are talking about. Just complete all quests and then do what gives Crystals if you can't do those activities in between.

Again - it's quests. It's not repeatable content. You do them once and that's all. The goal is to give people more reasons to do repeatable content. Which is open for you to do, too.

2) "transmute subsystem is not for you questers"

That's just you over reacting. By your logic it's also not for end-game pvers. Then who is it for? People who run pledges every day? Because you can't seriously say that 1 crystal a week for doing whatever the latest trial is is catering to anyone.

So yeah, it forces everyone to run content they don't necessarily want to run. Not just you questers. Also them fishermen, also them RPers, also them end-game PvErs, them achievement hunters, etc.

Also this last comment of yours is nonsensical.

See, while i dont know why anyone would **need** vanilla ice cream when butter pecan exists... i do not then pose that need in the form of some question about why ice cream stores sell it.

i dont know why someone would need a red car, but that does not in anyway push into why they are made and sold to those who want them.

That's NOT AT ALL what he's asking.

He's asking why you need crystals from a dungeon if any gear that doesn't drop in dungeons doesn't need to be re-traited. And participating in dungeons to get gear that needs re-trating is a waste of time and "stop doing content A" for you in order to do dungeons. Then why force yourself? Let's say crystals are given for quests. And then what? You'd need to go to a dungeon and "stop doing content A (quests)" to get gear to use crystals on. But you don't want to go? Or you don't mind? Then just go and get crystals?

See the point? It's not at all about flavors of ice-cream and colors of cars. It's more like why would you buy and make steaks if you're a vegan and won't eat them?

NolaArch

@STEVIL Again, I think you're missing the point of the system, entirely. It isn't to give people things to have just because they exist in the world (Tamriel?). The whole system is a response to people who have been grinding for ideally traited items with no luck and have specifically asked for this type of system. This provides an end. A form of a token system, if you will. Now people who weren't in need of the system to begin with aren't happy because they can't get the crystals through any means they want?

No one needs transmutation. But it's offered as a response to the endless, fruitless grind, through the channels people are already grinding and then some. All I'm hearing is complaining because you have to do something you don't want to do to get an item you probably don't even need. A specific player base asked for a specific thing for a long time. The thing is here. Targeted toward that player base. What more did they need to do? Some people are just never satisfied. That's where I simply go "what the hell?"

STEVIL

Artis wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

But it is actually a kick in the nuts to pvp players. levelling crafting is painfully slow.

Not sure what you're saying. Crafting is as painfully slow for PvE players. PvP players don't get to play victims here.

Juhasow wrote: »

If You want BiS item then You're grinding for it. If You fail to get that item there will be now always alternative option light at the end of the tunnel which was not present before. This improves itemization ibcredibly well while not making it brainlesly easy which at the end could just destroy the game.

This is excatly what I and many other people asked for. Control over RNG but without brainlesly easy items aquiring. Getting BiS items will still require effort but now You can be sure You'll get them one way or another.

Are you implying that running fungal grotto 40 or whatever times is not brainlessly easy? Cause you kinda contradict yourself.

If You think You'll get 40 keys after 40 runs then You're contradict Yourself. Bosses there will only have a chance to give You crystals. It'll be much more time consuming if You'll decide to get those crystals that way and yes I think if something is time consuming it's not brainlesly easy like for example running 5 times on fungal grotto like some people were thinking.

Are you implying that any number of runs in fungal grotto is not brainlessly easy? Just because something is time consuming it doesn't mean it's not brainlessly easy.

Also, please look up what "contradict" means, it doesn't mean what you think it means and what you said just makes no sense. In no way or form do I contradict myself in that comment.

@STEVIL you're wrong.

1)

i love the logic that those doing content A are not shut out they can just stop doing content A.

You are right. We can toss aside the main questline of the core game, all the zone quests, all the side quests all the other such stuff that are not "worthy" enough to need to think about traits at all and go do the dungeons that matter.

That's not that logic. You don't need to stop doing content A. You can do content A and content B.In your case it's even easier - it's the quests you are talking about. Just complete all quests and then do what gives Crystals if you can't do those activities in between.

Again - it's quests. It's not repeatable content. You do them once and that's all. The goal is to give people more reasons to do repeatable content. Which is open for you to do, too.

2) "transmute subsystem is not for you questers"

That's just you over reacting. By your logic it's also not for end-game pvers. Then who is it for? People who run pledges every day? Because you can't seriously say that 1 crystal a week for doing whatever the latest trial is is catering to anyone.

So yeah, it forces everyone to run content they don't necessarily want to run. Not just you questers. Also them fishermen, also them RPers, also them end-game PvErs, them achievement hunters, etc.

NolaArch wrote: »

What I'm asking is: Why would someone who doesn't run the content that drops crystals need crystals to re-trait an item that drops from the content where you would also receive crystals?

That's a good question. Again, unless you seriously mean that overland sets would be faster to transmute if you got 1 crystal per quest. But idk, 40 quests seems like a long. And again - you wouldn't be able to transmute as many things as you want in principle because there is limited amount of quests.

First thought, the "its not stopping the quests" cuz you know you can do quests when you dont want crystals and then stop doing quests to go get crystals.

yes, thats right.

just like putting it just for VMA would not mean PVPers would have to stop running PVP or trial folks would not have to stop trials... they would just have to stop those whenever they wanted crystals.

so... yes... you do have to stop quests and run the dungeons or arenas or pvp WHEN you want to get crystals.

Why? because they chose to make content A and content B not both give crystals.

As for end game pve trial folks... didn't i see leaderboards and the weekly both in the guaranteed lists?

Was that combo of possible gains above or below the entry for killng molag bal and savirning all of nirn?

Several have stated above this is in part to simply grant more reward for those already running the content they are already running... and if that is true why not apply that same thing to the main bulk of the PVE content of the game?

Folks keep running back behind the "justify why questers" (or generic "the unworthy" need it) while my point is why do you and the others need to exclude them from it so much?

Mojmir

Artis wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

if you can only do the quests once, wheres the problem? id be more apt to give a stone for something not repeatable than anything else.

I have no problem.It just makes no sense to say stuff like "waaa we are shut out" in this case. Because, I'm a quester, too. (If there's such a type of player). I completed all quests in 2014 and every DLC when they came out. Will I get my crystals or am I shut out of the system then? And then look, when he gets called out on being inconsistent , he pretend he wasn't addressed. But it's ok, I'll ask again.

@STEVIL you missed this comment and forgot to reply to it.

1)
i love the logic that those doing content A are not shut out they can just stop doing content A.

You are right. We can toss aside the main questline of the core game, all the zone quests, all the side quests all the other such stuff that are not "worthy" enough to need to think about traits at all and go do the dungeons that matter.

That's not that logic. You don't need to stop doing content A. You can do content A and content B.In your case it's even easier - it's the quests you are talking about. Just complete all quests and then do what gives Crystals if you can't do those activities in between.

Again - it's quests. It's not repeatable content. You do them once and that's all. The goal is to give people more reasons to do repeatable content. Which is open for you to do, too.

2) "transmute subsystem is not for you questers"

That's just you over reacting. By your logic it's also not for end-game pvers. Then who is it for? People who run pledges every day? Because you can't seriously say that 1 crystal a week for doing whatever the latest trial is is catering to anyone.

So yeah, it forces everyone to run content they don't necessarily want to run. Not just you questers. Also them fishermen, also them RPers, also them end-game PvErs, them achievement hunters, etc.

Also this last comment of yours is nonsensical.

See, while i dont know why anyone would **need** vanilla ice cream when butter pecan exists... i do not then pose that need in the form of some question about why ice cream stores sell it.

i dont know why someone would need a red car, but that does not in anyway push into why they are made and sold to those who want them.

That's NOT AT ALL what he's asking.

He's asking why you need crystals from a dungeon if any gear that doesn't drop in dungeons doesn't need to be re-traited. And participating in dungeons to get gear that needs re-trating is a waste of time and "stop doing content A" for you in order to do dungeons. Then why force yourself? Let's say crystals are given for quests. And then what? You'd need to go to a dungeon and "stop doing content A (quests)" to get gear to use crystals on. But you don't want to go? Or you don't mind? Then just go and get crystals?

See the point? It's not at all about flavors of ice-cream and colors of cars. It's more like why would you buy and make steaks if you're a vegan and won't eat them?

well, at least you wont eat your own profits

STEVIL

Mojmir wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

But it is actually a kick in the nuts to pvp players. levelling crafting is painfully slow.

Not sure what you're saying. Crafting is as painfully slow for PvE players. PvP players don't get to play victims here.

Juhasow wrote: »

If You want BiS item then You're grinding for it. If You fail to get that item there will be now always alternative option light at the end of the tunnel which was not present before. This improves itemization ibcredibly well while not making it brainlesly easy which at the end could just destroy the game.

This is excatly what I and many other people asked for. Control over RNG but without brainlesly easy items aquiring. Getting BiS items will still require effort but now You can be sure You'll get them one way or another.

Are you implying that running fungal grotto 40 or whatever times is not brainlessly easy? Cause you kinda contradict yourself.

If You think You'll get 40 keys after 40 runs then You're contradict Yourself. Bosses there will only have a chance to give You crystals. It'll be much more time consuming if You'll decide to get those crystals that way and yes I think if something is time consuming it's not brainlesly easy like for example running 5 times on fungal grotto like some people were thinking.

Are you implying that any number of runs in fungal grotto is not brainlessly easy? Just because something is time consuming it doesn't mean it's not brainlessly easy.

Also, please look up what "contradict" means, it doesn't mean what you think it means and what you said just makes no sense. In no way or form do I contradict myself in that comment.

@STEVIL you're wrong.

1)

i love the logic that those doing content A are not shut out they can just stop doing content A.

You are right. We can toss aside the main questline of the core game, all the zone quests, all the side quests all the other such stuff that are not "worthy" enough to need to think about traits at all and go do the dungeons that matter.

That's not that logic. You don't need to stop doing content A. You can do content A and content B.In your case it's even easier - it's the quests you are talking about. Just complete all quests and then do what gives Crystals if you can't do those activities in between.

Again - it's quests. It's not repeatable content. You do them once and that's all. The goal is to give people more reasons to do repeatable content. Which is open for you to do, too.

2) "transmute subsystem is not for you questers"

That's just you over reacting. By your logic it's also not for end-game pvers. Then who is it for? People who run pledges every day? Because you can't seriously say that 1 crystal a week for doing whatever the latest trial is is catering to anyone.

So yeah, it forces everyone to run content they don't necessarily want to run. Not just you questers. Also them fishermen, also them RPers, also them end-game PvErs, them achievement hunters, etc.

NolaArch wrote: »

What I'm asking is: Why would someone who doesn't run the content that drops crystals need crystals to re-trait an item that drops from the content where you would also receive crystals?

That's a good question. Again, unless you seriously mean that overland sets would be faster to transmute if you got 1 crystal per quest. But idk, 40 quests seems like a long. And again - you wouldn't be able to transmute as many things as you want in principle because there is limited amount of quests.

if you can only do the quests once, wheres the problem? id be more apt to give a stone for something not repeatable than anything else.

Exactly.

STEVIL

Artis wrote: »

He's asking why you need crystals from a dungeon if any gear that doesn't drop in dungeons doesn't need to be re-traited. And participating in dungeons to get gear that needs re-trating is a waste of time and "stop doing content A" for you in order to do dungeons. Then why force yourself? Let's say crystals are given for quests. And then what? You'd need to go to a dungeon and "stop doing content A (quests)" to get gear to use crystals on. But you don't want to go? Or you don't mind? Then just go and get crystals?

See the point? It's not at all about flavors of ice-cream and colors of cars. It's more like why would you buy and make steaks if you're a vegan and won't eat them?

Again, it is not a matter of "need" for any system or subsystem to be opened up to those who may want it or may benefit from it. "Enjoy" or "want" are usually sufficient. We dont cut off skyshards for "group/trial folks once they have enough skill points to unlock the skills needed for 2-3 bars of skills plus passives, right?

Also, last time i checked, every non-dungeon drop does not come in whatever traits you desire. So this myth that nothing but dungeon sets will ever be re-traited is silly.

Or... let me get this right... are you under the mistaken notion that a golden crafted staff or golden overland drop staff like say spinners or sorrow wont benefit from re-trait by keeping the same gold quality like dungeon sets will?

Consider the recent changes to traits and the shifts between say sharpened and precise and other options... you really cannot see any benefit in -re-traiting from quest crystals the gold or even purple weapons or gear?

or do you just pretend none of that applies because you just dismiss any "need" for anything for questers?

this new sus-system is NOT just about top end yields for the elite running their repeatables - or at least it does not have to be - it can apply for resources as well with the crystals and transmute being an alternative resource to re-crafting and re-farming and re-golding etc...

those running that content will have access to those resource options... but whether or not you **need** to understand why others should be allowed in that game or not, why do you **need** so badly to keep them out?

NolaArch

STEVIL wrote: »

those running that content will have access to those resource options... but whether or not you **need** to understand why others should be allowed in that game or not, why do you **need** so badly to keep them out?

To be fair, no one is keeping anyone out of anything. You --the collective you-- are choosing not to participate and then complaining about it. Not ZoS's problem. Not our problem. If you don't want to do the content, that's fair. But no one else has to justify why you're "left out." Yet here I am

Juhasow

Artis wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

But it is actually a kick in the nuts to pvp players. levelling crafting is painfully slow.

Not sure what you're saying. Crafting is as painfully slow for PvE players. PvP players don't get to play victims here.

Juhasow wrote: »

If You want BiS item then You're grinding for it. If You fail to get that item there will be now always alternative option light at the end of the tunnel which was not present before. This improves itemization ibcredibly well while not making it brainlesly easy which at the end could just destroy the game.

This is excatly what I and many other people asked for. Control over RNG but without brainlesly easy items aquiring. Getting BiS items will still require effort but now You can be sure You'll get them one way or another.

Are you implying that running fungal grotto 40 or whatever times is not brainlessly easy? Cause you kinda contradict yourself.

If You think You'll get 40 keys after 40 runs then You're contradict Yourself. Bosses there will only have a chance to give You crystals. It'll be much more time consuming if You'll decide to get those crystals that way and yes I think if something is time consuming it's not brainlesly easy like for example running 5 times on fungal grotto like some people were thinking.

Are you implying that any number of runs in fungal grotto is not brainlessly easy? Just because something is time consuming it doesn't mean it's not brainlessly easy.

Also, please look up what "contradict" means, it doesn't mean what you think it means and what you said just makes no sense. In no way or form do I contradict myself in that comment.

Well term "brainlesly easy" doesnt have to means always something You can do without sweat and non hard at all. Something time consuming isnt "brainlesly easy" even if isnt hard to do.You still need Your brain to push it one run after another and belive me after 20 runs in a row You'll understand why it isnt brainlesly easy for everyone. Also if You'll look at thread title You should understand why I am calling it not brainlesly easy. I felt little irony suggesting You think 40 vFG runs is totally not requiring brain which is imo not true which means You contradict Yourself making that irony.

lostcloud

Derra wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

A big problem with PVP in ESO is the PVE grind. Now, you might think, well, "if you don't like it, don't play." Well, that's what PVP players do.. err.. don't do.. and that's the problem. A big reason ESO PVP is so unpopular is because players would prefer to not play ESO at all than to have to grind in order to feel competitive in PVP.

A lot of PVP players I know were excited about the Transmutation system because they thought they could come back to ESO and do what they enjoy: play open world AvA.

After learning about what the Transmutation system actually is, they realized that if they come back to ESO, in order to remain competitive they will be: Grinding the same 4-12 player instances they've already done for years and are completely sick of and would rather gouge their eyes out than have to do it every day again.

Grinding in ESO is worse than it is in a lot of other games because it's insanely repetitious. Designing gameplay around grinding the same content for YEARS is very very bad IMO.

Furthermore, I will say ZOS is really dumb by trying, once again, to encourage hardcore players to use the group finder. That is a recipe to make both hardcore and casual players miserable when the group finder matches them.

100% this.

They replace grind with - grind.
What makes it worse is that it´s not even letting people grind the content they like on the char they like.

No they require you to grind pledges on as many chars as possible each and every day. Taking chances with rewards for the unworthy does not seem to come close to doing that.

Will 30 day campaign rewards atleast award you with more than one stone?

When I logged into my main character on the pts the 30 day campaign rewards were waiting for me, I had 1 greater stone and 5 lesser stones. The greater stone shattered into 40 shards, the lesser shattered into 4 shards each, I was placed around 140 in the rankings so don't know if that will affect the amount you get. With what you will pick up through rewards of the worthy, should be enough to retrait a few items, the next 30 day campaign shouldn't be too far away from ending once this dlc goes live.
So just go play the game and you will have all the shards you want but I guess too many people have the I want it now mentality. The mentality that is slowly destroying MMO's what some consider grind others do not they just have fun with friends and guild mates but that's a story for another day.

The lesser stones were called Leaders Transmutation Geode, and they stacked in your inventory not in your currency tab, right click on them to use thus shattering them into 4 shards that then appeared in your currency tab. The greater stone I cant remember its exact name as I used it to test out how transmutation worked, this also appeared in your inventory before you shatter it into 40 shards that then also appear in your currency tab.

Cryptical

I want to know one thing - how many stones do I need to grind up in order to buy the soul shriven skin off of molag?

NolaArch

Cryptical wrote: »

I want to know one thing - how many stones do I need to grind up in order to buy the soul shriven skin off of molag?

No, no. Not stones. Daedric thrones.

sevomd69

STEVIL wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

He's asking why you need crystals from a dungeon if any gear that doesn't drop in dungeons doesn't need to be re-traited. And participating in dungeons to get gear that needs re-trating is a waste of time and "stop doing content A" for you in order to do dungeons. Then why force yourself? Let's say crystals are given for quests. And then what? You'd need to go to a dungeon and "stop doing content A (quests)" to get gear to use crystals on. But you don't want to go? Or you don't mind? Then just go and get crystals?

See the point? It's not at all about flavors of ice-cream and colors of cars. It's more like why would you buy and make steaks if you're a vegan and won't eat them?

Again, it is not a matter of "need" for any system or subsystem to be opened up to those who may want it or may benefit from it. "Enjoy" or "want" are usually sufficient. We dont cut off skyshards for "group/trial folks once they have enough skill points to unlock the skills needed for 2-3 bars of skills plus passives, right?

Also, last time i checked, every non-dungeon drop does not come in whatever traits you desire. So this myth that nothing but dungeon sets will ever be re-traited is silly.

Or... let me get this right... are you under the mistaken notion that a golden crafted staff or golden overland drop staff like say spinners or sorrow wont benefit from re-trait by keeping the same gold quality like dungeon sets will?

Consider the recent changes to traits and the shifts between say sharpened and precise and other options... you really cannot see any benefit in -re-traiting from quest crystals the gold or even purple weapons or gear?

or do you just pretend none of that applies because you just dismiss any "need" for anything for questers?

this new sus-system is NOT just about top end yields for the elite running their repeatables - or at least it does not have to be - it can apply for resources as well with the crystals and transmute being an alternative resource to re-crafting and re-farming and re-golding etc...

those running that content will have access to those resource options... but whether or not you **need** to understand why others should be allowed in that game or not, why do you **need** so badly to keep them out?

Why do you say that the transmutation "subsystem" is closed off to you and I'm assuming you're also speaking for all the casual players who feel the same way...

Nothing is closed off...Nobody wants to keep you out...you just choose to close it off by not choosing to do the content, regardless of the reason... Everyone in this game has the same exact chance to drop these crystals...as long as you are willing to do the content...

To be totally honest other than the DLC dungeons...the vet dungeons are a cakewalk that don't even need a full 4 man team to steamroll it... and I am nor ever will be even close to being an "elite" player...

Artis

STEVIL wrote: »

First thought, the "its not stopping the quests" cuz you know you can do quests when you dont want crystals and then stop doing quests to go get crystals.

yes, thats right.

just like putting it just for VMA would not mean PVPers would have to stop running PVP or trial folks would not have to stop trials... they would just have to stop those whenever they wanted crystals.

so... yes... you do have to stop quests and run the dungeons or arenas or pvp WHEN you want to get crystals.

Why? because they chose to make content A and content B not both give crystals.

As for end game pve trial folks... didn't i see leaderboards and the weekly both in the guaranteed lists?

Was that combo of possible gains above or below the entry for killng molag bal and savirning all of nirn?

Several have stated above this is in part to simply grant more reward for those already running the content they are already running... and if that is true why not apply that same thing to the main bulk of the PVE content of the game?

Folks keep running back behind the "justify why questers" (or generic "the unworthy" need it) while my point is why do you and the others need to exclude them from it so much?

@STEVIL come on, are you reading what people are saying to you?

You are talking about quests. Don't stop doing them. Finish them all and then you don't have quests anymore. So after that whatever you can do will give crystals. Crystals are given in endgame repeatable content, not in quests.

Regarding endgame folks... Yes, leaderboards are there. Only ONE trial is the endgame however. Getting one crystal for being on vHOF leaderboard is hardly a lot, you know? And then no matter how much you keep spending time there - you aren't getting anything for it. Would you be okay with 1 crystal for the first quest of a week?

It's not about justifying or excluding anyone. I asked you directly - what are you gonna retrait with those crystals if you don't want to run any endgame content that already gives crystals? If you aren't doing dungeons or pvp, then you either craft or buy gear. In both cases you can choose the trait and don't need to re-trait. No one is excluding boxers from chess tournaments. They just don't want to participate, so why would they want medals from FIDE?

STEVIL wrote: »

Again, it is not a matter of "need" for any system or subsystem to be opened up to those who may want it or may benefit from it. "Enjoy" or "want" are usually sufficient. We dont cut off skyshards for "group/trial folks once they have enough skill points to unlock the skills needed for 2-3 bars of skills plus passives, right?

No, according to your logic trial folks are excluded. Because they need to stop doing content A and go collect the skyshards. If they aren't excluded, then you aren't excluded from transmutation system either.

STEVIL wrote: »

Also, last time i checked, every non-dungeon drop does not come in whatever traits you desire. So this myth that nothing but dungeon sets will ever be re-traited is silly.

None of that gear is BOP, it's all BOE so it doesn't matter in what trait it drops. You can buy it in a trait you need.

STEVIL wrote: »

Or... let me get this right... are you under the mistaken notion that a golden crafted staff or golden overland drop staff like say spinners or sorrow wont benefit from re-trait by keeping the same gold quality like dungeon sets will?

Consider the recent changes to traits and the shifts between say sharpened and precise and other options... you really cannot see any benefit in -re-traiting from quest crystals the gold or even purple weapons or gear?

or do you just pretend none of that applies because you just dismiss any "need" for anything for questers?

None of that applies, you can ALREADY buy a trait you need RIGHT NOW. TODAY. No need to wait for the next update, no need to farm crystals - EVEN if you got them for quests.

And wait, are you saying that it's okay that questers who already completed all quests would be excluded from getting crystals for quests? How rude.

STEVIL wrote: »

this new sus-system is NOT just about top end yields for the elite running their repeatables - or at least it does not have to be - it can apply for resources as well with the crystals and transmute being an alternative resource to re-crafting and re-farming and re-golding etc...

those running that content will have access to those resource options... but whether or not you **need** to understand why others should be allowed in that game or not, why do you **need** so badly to keep them out?

Yeah, no. It's not an alternative to golding and never was supposed to be that. I don't need to keep them out, no. But you are being a hypocrite. Due to the fact that there's no reason for you to need this except for your wish, you simply sound like a person who just wants an easy way to farm crystals to re-trait your trial gear. Quests are easy, trials are not. Are you saying they both should give the same rewards?

Also, how come you don't care that I"m kept out from skyshards, crafting, pvp skill lines, quest rewards, trading etc? Ohh maybe it's cause I'm not kept out and it's my choice whether to do those things or not?

Juhasow wrote: »

Well term "brainlesly easy" doesnt have to means always something You can do without sweat and non hard at all. Something time consuming isnt "brainlesly easy" even if isnt hard to do.You still need Your brain to push it one run after another and belive me after 20 runs in a row You'll understand why it isnt brainlesly easy for everyone. Also if You'll look at thread title You should understand why I am calling it not brainlesly easy. I felt little irony suggesting You think 40 vFG runs is totally not requiring brain which is imo not true which means You contradict Yourself making that irony.

So because I contradict your opinion I contradict myself? No, not how it works. DO look up what the word means. And yes it is brainlessly easy. I can run it in any condition without much effort. And also no, no one said 40 runs have to be in a row, which makes it even easier.

Wrecking_Gorilla

What makes a pledge "Vet" as to non vet? You can do a pledge in vet and only get 1 key or does it require the 2 key bonus? If it's 1 key, then isn't normal pledge the same thing. Any clarification on this?

Feanor

By the same logic you could complain about being "left out" of vMA weapons or trial gear, if you can't or won't run it.

STEVIL

sevomd69 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

He's asking why you need crystals from a dungeon if any gear that doesn't drop in dungeons doesn't need to be re-traited. And participating in dungeons to get gear that needs re-trating is a waste of time and "stop doing content A" for you in order to do dungeons. Then why force yourself? Let's say crystals are given for quests. And then what? You'd need to go to a dungeon and "stop doing content A (quests)" to get gear to use crystals on. But you don't want to go? Or you don't mind? Then just go and get crystals?

See the point? It's not at all about flavors of ice-cream and colors of cars. It's more like why would you buy and make steaks if you're a vegan and won't eat them?

Again, it is not a matter of "need" for any system or subsystem to be opened up to those who may want it or may benefit from it. "Enjoy" or "want" are usually sufficient. We dont cut off skyshards for "group/trial folks once they have enough skill points to unlock the skills needed for 2-3 bars of skills plus passives, right?

Also, last time i checked, every non-dungeon drop does not come in whatever traits you desire. So this myth that nothing but dungeon sets will ever be re-traited is silly.

Or... let me get this right... are you under the mistaken notion that a golden crafted staff or golden overland drop staff like say spinners or sorrow wont benefit from re-trait by keeping the same gold quality like dungeon sets will?

Consider the recent changes to traits and the shifts between say sharpened and precise and other options... you really cannot see any benefit in -re-traiting from quest crystals the gold or even purple weapons or gear?

or do you just pretend none of that applies because you just dismiss any "need" for anything for questers?

this new sus-system is NOT just about top end yields for the elite running their repeatables - or at least it does not have to be - it can apply for resources as well with the crystals and transmute being an alternative resource to re-crafting and re-farming and re-golding etc...

those running that content will have access to those resource options... but whether or not you **need** to understand why others should be allowed in that game or not, why do you **need** so badly to keep them out?

Why do you say that the transmutation "subsystem" is closed off to you and I'm assuming you're also speaking for all the casual players who feel the same way...

Nothing is closed off...Nobody wants to keep you out...you just choose to close it off by not choosing to do the content, regardless of the reason... Everyone in this game has the same exact chance to drop these crystals...as long as you are willing to do the content...

To be totally honest other than the DLC dungeons...the vet dungeons are a cakewalk that don't even need a full 4 man team to steamroll it... and I am nor ever will be even close to being an "elite" player...

you may not choose to acknowledge that cutting the vast majority of the main content (the vast bulk of the PVE questing) out of the fuel needed in quantity for the new sub-system that would allow them to re-trait their gear as closing it off... but many will not choose that viewpoint.

What if it were just available from PVP success? What if there were NO PVE availability or access to the crystals.

The exact same "you can just go PVP and get the crystals so everyone has the same chances?" would then be just as flawed a logic as the positions being espoused here.

it does not seem so hard to grasp that a new sub-system that can benefit the vast majority of the playerbase of any stripe should be available for the major varieties of content, all of them, not just a smaller subset of "want to be thought of as worthy" playerbase.

This move says "the questline content matters less" and while we have long seen that from certain subsections of the playerbase it really has not been so blatantly encoded by ZOS before now.

Telling crafters "just recraft your gear with the new trait and expend the new tempers while we just re-trait using shards we collect by running the same content we were running before" is a position i find very unacceptable on a personal level.

And let me be clear, i say that as someone who routinely solos undaunted pledges but who has also gone thru the full bronze silver gold content quests from back in the days on many different characters (as well as the various DLC questlines) and has a good idea of how much time and effort those different types of content require.

Finally, let me say, i have 14 max cp characters and many of them were maxed from before there were even Cp - the olde fashioned way. Right now, about half of them have not completed the silver or gold questlines and some have not even completed more than a few zones even in the bronze. heck, quite a few of the latter ones did not bother to do the molag bal main quest finales.

Why... there was no need and little to gain.

however, if transmute crystals were added, there would be qa reason and a benefit to quest those characters thru that content again and **in the process** run into others also running that content, some for the first time.

So while **technically** that content is not repeatable by the same character, it is still a long batch of content that many characters as alts may not have ever ran - partly because there was little point.

this would be a step towards changing that, making that content "more worth running" just like it is expected to do for the content it is currently branding "worthy of inclusion in the new sub-system and more efficient gearing."

Feanor

You could just have said the easiest content in the game should give crystals so you can run a dungeon maybe 5 times and have best trait gear. Because that's what your suggestion of including questing boils down to. That's not how it should work.

Juhasow

Artis wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Well term "brainlesly easy" doesnt have to means always something You can do without sweat and non hard at all. Something time consuming isnt "brainlesly easy" even if isnt hard to do.You still need Your brain to push it one run after another and belive me after 20 runs in a row You'll understand why it isnt brainlesly easy for everyone. Also if You'll look at thread title You should understand why I am calling it not brainlesly easy. I felt little irony suggesting You think 40 vFG runs is totally not requiring brain which is imo not true which means You contradict Yourself making that irony.

So because I contradict your opinion I contradict myself? No, not how it works. DO look up what the word means. And yes it is brainlessly easy. I can run it in any condition without much effort. And also no, no one said 40 runs have to be in a row, which makes it even easier.

Well that's Your opinion. My is different. I doubt that farming vFG will be new way to get these crystals like every including You was thinking , because it'll be much easier to run content that have guaranted crystals then one that have only some chance so You could run possibly 200+ vFG and not get 40 of them. If that is brainlesly easy then why anyone compialned on current form of farming which is basicly the same , RNG with a chance to get something forcing You to do some content countless times.

So by saying that imo countless vFG or any vet dung runs isnt brainlesly easy form of farming that crystals and it'll be harder then most of scrubs were thinking i contradict myself ? Maybe You should also check what that word means. Also like I said previously look at thread title to catch the context.

STEVIL

@Artis

You are talking about quests. Don't stop doing them. Finish them all and then you don't have quests anymore. So after that whatever you can do will give crystals. Crystals are given in endgame repeatable content, not in quests.

If the current system goes live as is, i do have to stop doing the bulk of the game quest content and go run the pledges and such in order to gain crystals if i want. the two do not overlap. Saying "just do one and then the other" does not change that.

If the crystals dropped just for PVP success, would you think "hey trial and pledge guys can just go to pvp so no problem" or would you wonder why that section of the playerbase which can benefit from the new sub-system was cut out?

As for the bold, that is just a restatement of the current sub-system design choice. That design choice is being questioned. So it does not defend itself unless circular reasoning is all you have.

"Regarding endgame folks... Yes, leaderboards are there. Only ONE trial is the endgame however. Getting one crystal for being on vHOF leaderboard is hardly a lot, you know? And then no matter how much you keep spending time there - you aren't getting anything for it. Would you be okay with 1 crystal for the first quest of a week?"

Not sure if you are aware but the questlines are often more time consuming than a dungeon or trial. They take up more playtime for the major ones. if i had to slate a starting point it would be something like this:
1 guaranteed crystal for finishing successfully each main zone questline - the big finale for auridon etc along with its precursors - like you saw in the silver and gold caldwell countdowns.
1 guarantied crystal for finishing the main questline.- you know saving nirn
A chance at a crystal for finishing smaller questlines such as mage's guild and fighter's guild. Say 1/4 chance you get for finishing normal content in the current "list of worthy"
Since these quests are not repeatable for a character, there do not need to be "time limits" imposed on them. Thay have a static limit.

"It's not about justifying or excluding anyone. I asked you directly - what are you gonna retrait with those crystals if you don't want to run any endgame content that already gives crystals? If you aren't doing dungeons or pvp, then you either craft or buy gear. In both cases you can choose the trait and don't need to re-trait. No one is excluding boxers from chess tournaments. They just don't want to participate, so why would they want medals from FIDE?"

But, you know, when a boxer does decide to play chess under FIDE, the already existing chess players do not get a more efficient sub-system that helps them get better pieces, right? There are no "gold" knights and special sub-systems that allow existing non-boxers to swap for gold bishops but which require boxers to spend their tempers on. The existing non-boxer has not one single in-game provided edge over the boxer chess player - he has to succeed or fail on the same terms.

this new sub-system provides another option for mostly non-questline content that has benefits that all could gain from.

And every time i see another "they dont need it " argument i have to come back to "then why is it so important they not get it?"

"None of that gear is BOP, it's all BOE so it doesn't matter in what trait it drops. You can buy it in a trait you need."


"None of that applies, you can ALREADY buy a trait you need RIGHT NOW. TODAY. No need to wait for the next update, no need to farm crystals - EVEN if you got them for quests."

.

So if it doesn't matter if questers want to use it for BOE, if questers want to use it to not have to re-spend tempers and gold, if none of that matters then why is it so important they not be allowed to gain into that sub-system in the same content that gives them BoE gear?

"And wait, are you saying that it's okay that questers who already completed all quests would be excluded from getting crystals for quests? How rude"

I am not weighing in on the grandfathering or not. ZOS tends to not grandfather things with new additions but they have i believe at one point did so with mementos. So, rude or not, they have precedent for both options and they have the quest completion data stored for each character, so they have the options to go either way.

A similar but not exactly the same "but what about before the sub-system drops" argument can be made for the content listed as "worthy". is it rude to tell someone who has run VMA 100 times already they get no crystals to reflect that achievement and have to start now at the same point as someone who has run it twice? Should certain past-achievements be recognized by awarding crystals at start, like happened with say trophies or mementos when new systems came in for those?

good question?

"Yeah, no. It's not an alternative to golding and never was supposed to be that."


huh... if i play thw "worthy" content and get crystals, i can take my existing gold gear (BOP and BOE) and re-trait them. if i don't, i cant and have to re-craft or re-farm or re-buy and then get it up to the quality.

That really sounds like an alternative to re-golding a item you got to get another trait.

or are you confused and think when you re-trait a item its quality resets to normal?

or are you just irked that an actual "benefit" that applies to BOE and Crafted shows up the flaws in the "no need" argument?


" I don't need to keep them out, no. "


Well, if you don't **need** to keep them out them i suppose you are arguing in favor of the current proposal maybe because you just **want** to keep them out so why should your *want* but not *need* stop others from having the content they play be more enjoyable?

See, one of these *wants* does not affect the other side at all and one of these *wants* leaves a large swath of content players in the lurch... so why choose to argue for the one that impacts others? if i get a crystal for finishing off molag bal, that does not sneak in and take a crystal from you? Really, all those crystals you get from the "worthy" content are safe... we questers wont be pickpocketing them from you?

"But you are being a hypocrite. Due to the fact that there's no reason for you to need this except for your wish, you simply sound like a person who just wants an easy way to farm crystals to re-trait your trial gear. Quests are easy, trials are not. Are you saying they both should give the same rewards?"

You *need* to look up hypocrite. i am not establishing *need* as a prerequisite for being included in content. You are the one trying to use *need* for this piece of content and then defining your own criteria for need as if your values apply universally. If questers get crystals for major questing and questers use them on the same BOE gear you can as a "worthy" content runner, that does not affect you, does it? So why keep them out?

"Also, how come you don't care that I"m kept out from skyshards, crafting, pvp skill lines, quest rewards, trading etc? Ohh maybe it's cause I'm not kept out and it's my choice whether to do those things or not?"

I am not trying to cure ever issue someone might imagine with the game at once, just stop a new sub-system that is useful and beneficial to a large section of the player base, if not quite all of them, from cutting out a large chunk of that base from the **consumable fuel** it needs to run.

but case-by case

SKYSHARDS provide no benefit in and of themselves - they provide skill points. Skills points can be gained from the contents included in "the worthy" whether by dint of levels or completion rewards. Without the **fuel** a quester cannot re-trait an existing item and can only acquire a new weapon and then raise its quality.

Crafting/PVP skills - Every skill line in the game has certain aspects which feed their advancement and unlock their options. The difference here is the consumable fuel needed to feed this new benefit is what is being locked down, preventing any substantive use. i can advance my pvp skill lines to like 2 or is it 3 now, been too long, by just doing the "training quest" and get several pvp skills unlocked that i can then advance while questing.

Quest rewards: ??? ??? ??? Not sure what quest rewards you refer to but it seems some folks feel the gear gained from questing is available at every store for pennies? Seems to me that if you were fine with that as the "unworthy" alternative to crystals you would be fine with that for your end as well. And again, we are talking about here a reward that once gained you always have wheras for crystals we are talking about consumable fuel needed to drive the subsystem. its literally the difference between one time permanent reward and an ongoing consumable. its "give a fish" vs "teach to fish" at its finest.

Trading: i have no idea how you think you are cut out by trading if questers get a shot at crystals from their content? Whether or not you can trade is more an issue of the BOP vs BOE choices made by ZOS. if you think i am somehow by asking for questers to get a shot at shards in their content making a case **for* *BOP* or *more BOP* then your logic is... astonishing.

there are tons of other things i am not trying to address/prevent/solve with my objection to this "worthy" vs "unworthy" content branding in this new subsystem... I am not trying to solve the concerns some have with bows, the concerns some have with shield stacking, the concerns some have with nightblade viability in certain content, the concerns some have with oblivion damage in pvp... etc...

So, maybe those should be other threads? Oh wait... many are.

STEVIL

Feanor wrote: »

You could just have said the easiest content in the game should give crystals so you can run a dungeon maybe 5 times and have best trait gear. Because that's what your suggestion of including questing boils down to. That's not how it should work.

In my experience soloing dungeons for gear sets and such, running a dungeon "maybe 5 times" and getting the set pieces you need excluding traits is not the norm. i have run city of ash a lot and i dont think i have an inferno staff of any trait.

So, unless there is something in the current proposal for transmute that changes the drop rates for weapons and gear itself OR there is something in my proposal to expand the shard drop rate that does similar, then i suspect that your "maybe 5 times" is just made up crap?

Am i wrong?

Is it possible to get the right pieces in maybe 5 runs? Sure. just like its possible to get the best traits in those same 5 runs.

But i dont see that being argued by you are a reason to not have those runs gain crystals?

Am i wrong?

Sounds like more "worthy vs unworthy" positioning to me.

Feanor

If you're farming for gear solo you're doing it wrong. Get 3 others and farm for an hour or two, exchange the pieces and you'll have your full set. If you're lucky even in good traits.

STEVIL

Feanor wrote: »

If you're farming for gear solo you're doing it wrong. Get 3 others and farm for an hour or two, exchange the pieces and you'll have your full set. If you're lucky even in good traits.

So now its even solo who dont deserve it?

So sad that everybody doesn't play the same way you prefer.

Feanor

I don't say they deserve it or not. It's about deliberate choices.

theamazingx

You have to either be playing at a very low level or in the process of leveling for crystals to be out of your reach in the current state of the pts. At that point, an hour of active effort will improve your performance exponentially more than any transmutation crystal will. By the time you reach the point that crystal farming would ever be more effective than just trying to get better on your end, you'll be able to complete the content you currently feel excluded from.

STEVIL

Feanor wrote: »

I don't say they deserve it or not. It's about deliberate choices.

yes and the choice to exclude so much of the playable content from the new sub-system which can be of benefit to them is a bad choice.

At least to me it is and to some others.

Why should the choice be made to cut all that questing content playtime out of the re-trait system when pieces and sets with traits are gained as rewards during that content play?

have you not ever noticed that some pieces of quest reward gear - uniquely named gear - drop in sub-optimal traits? IIRC the harpy feather piece from alikir always drops in ornate. What about the Baryu's named weapon that drops in Deshaan iirc? Might not be correct but i seem to recall its trait being locked. Same for a named shield in Rift.

Why should all those rewards, unique rewards, have the content they were earned in exclude them from re-trait?

But lets be really clear here for the "not worthy" crowd or for the "should not be included - too easy" crowd or the "put in some effort" crowd.

my proposal would give a single crystal for each main zone major line completed (finale plus pre-cursors)so that means finishing all 15 main zones, the main questline and each DLC zone main line would earn you between 20-30 crystals.

nobody seems to be arguing that finishing a vet dungeon with a group of four is not easy or takes more than 30m tops. So for four folks to gain 40 crystals each is like 20 hours of playtime for each of them and is not hard.

Compare that to the time involved in doing all that content i just listed - much much longer than 20 hours for one person to get between 20-30.

So, lets stop pretnending this is about "ewasy" vs "hard" or "effort" vs "not effort" - its just about what content gets in the new sub-game and what content does not.

And i have yet to hear any good reason for excluding so much playtime content from the new sub-system that can affect and enable changing rewards that otherwise cannot be changed.

Why should i have to go into a four man dungeon to get the crystals needed to change the unique named item i got from main line questing play?

STEVIL

Feanor wrote: »

I don't say they deserve it or not. It's about deliberate choices.

Well you did say something about how th e easiest content should not get it, so sounds like a worthy vs unworthy position...

or

if it is just about making folks choose by cutting out some content... would you be equally fine if crystals only dropped from overland quests and daily delves and those who did not run that content had to make a "deliberate choice" to stop running trial and go run that in order to get the fuel for their re-trait desires?

i doubt it.

But you can prove me wrong.

Feanor

Your proposal wouldn't alleviate that. If you don't gain 40 crystals by questing, why bothering with it? And if you do gain a meaningful amount, why bothering with harder content? I can rush the quest content with no problem and finish a zone main quest line in less than an hour probably. Should I be rewarded with a meaningful amount of crystals for that?

theamazingx

STEVIL wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I don't say they deserve it or not. It's about deliberate choices.

Well you did say something about how th e easiest content should not get it, so sounds like a worthy vs unworthy position...

or

if it is just about making folks choose by cutting out some content... would you be equally fine if crystals only dropped from overland quests and daily delves and those who did not run that content had to make a "deliberate choice" to stop running trial and go run that in order to get the fuel for their re-trait desires?

i doubt it.

But you can prove me wrong.

What is it you actually feel like you're missing out on? Transmutation isn't content, it's an rng cap designed to only be viable for use with gear like vma weapons and monster sets. It's not about who deserves it, it's about who can actually use it. They clearly have no intention to be reducing grinds like divines bsw or leviathan or something. Having them drop in normals or quests would throw a wrench in their efforts to balance the drop rate to that effect, and for what? So that questers and normal dungeon runners can get a minor increase to an aspect of the game they claim not to care about?

STEVIL

Feanor wrote: »

Your proposal wouldn't alleviate that. If you don't gain 40 crystals by questing, why bothering with it? And if you do gain a meaningful amount, why bothering with harder content? I can rush the quest content with no problem and finish a zone main quest line in less than an hour probably. Should I be rewarded with a meaningful amount of crystals for that?

Ok so if you run that quest line in an hour of play with no real chance of failure and deserve no crystals for it... how many crystals should i get for me and four buddies running a vet pledge with mostly equal assured chance of success in half that time?

If you dont gain 40 crystals by dungeoning... blah blah.

My suggestion is the reward for spending 30m on a vet pledge (daily) and the one-time rewards for finishing a full zone main questline - which you claim to be probably an hour or less - be the same per individual.

So, please, line up all your "it will break this or that" counters for getting the same reward in twice the time as your counters to adding questing one-time rewards.

you would think i am suggesting the crystals fall like rain.

Somehow taking twice the time to get crystals thru questing will stop folks from running pledges.

Really?

last time i checked, they run pledges now with no crystals.

and again with the "harder content".

They reward four man vet dungeon runs with crystal per person.

nobody here is arguing that is anything like difficult threshold... are you?