Wake up people ! Transmutaion is not for lazy scrubs.

Mojmir · September 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

@STEVIL, your posts are well-thought even if sometimes lengthy.

That said, I still can't buy in on quests rewarding crystals.

I would be willing to compromise on crystal(s) being rewarded for completing a full zone quest line ... but that would still be a one-time event.

My proposal was in fact one crystal for each full zone quest line including the precursors -remember the old Caldwell 5-7 quests per zone check off?)

Also that ending molog balh finale which requires its precursors.

May have been chance for mages and fighters finale.

All told between 20 to 30 crystals for someone finishing every zone main quest on a character.

Not even enough for one retrait, lol, come on people throw this guy an agree

MLGProPlayer · September 2017

laced wrote: »

Why does this remind me of the vendors they put in SWTOR?

I mean, literally the same move, just different name.

Btw, @ZOS_GinaBruno - Everyone hated that system, and still hates that system.

Some people will complain just for the sake of complaining.

We've been asking for a token system for years. And now that we get one, some people are still unhappy.

MLGProPlayer · September 2017

theamazingx wrote: »

I honestly can't understand why players focusing on content where traits don't matter in the slightest are demanding the ability the grind out better traits slightly faster.

Entitlement. People want everything without having to work for it.

STEVIL · September 2017

Mojmir wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

@STEVIL, your posts are well-thought even if sometimes lengthy.

That said, I still can't buy in on quests rewarding crystals.

I would be willing to compromise on crystal(s) being rewarded for completing a full zone quest line ... but that would still be a one-time event.

My proposal was in fact one crystal for each full zone quest line including the precursors -remember the old Caldwell 5-7 quests per zone check off?)

Also that ending molog balh finale which requires its precursors.

May have been chance for mages and fighters finale.

All told between 20 to 30 crystals for someone finishing every zone main quest on a character.

Not even enough for one retrait, lol, come on people throw this guy an agree

yep, i set my sights on some truly game breaking make-it-rain- crystal showers...

Artis · September 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

Telling crafters "just recraft your gear with the new trait and expend the new tempers while we just re-trait using shards we collect by running the same content we were running before" is a position i find very unacceptable on a personal level.

What's the problem with that? That's equal treatment. Are you against equality and equal treatment? "We" need to run content again to get new crystals we didn't have before. Crafters will use "new" tempers that they got doing the same content they were doing before that always gave them tempers. It's even easier for crafters - they can recraft their gear already without waiting for the update.

STEVIL wrote: »

And let me be clear, i say that as someone who routinely solos undaunted pledges ...

...Why... there was no need and little to gain.

however, if transmute crystals were added, there would be qa reason and a benefit to quest those characters thru that content again and **in the process** run into others also running that content, some for the first time.

So while **technically** that content is not repeatable by the same character, it is still a long batch of content that many characters as alts may not have ever ran - partly because there was little point.

Ah so I was right. You don't argue in good faith and don't support questers. You just want an even easier way to get crystals to update your endgame gear that you got by completing veteran content solo.

Juhasow wrote: »

If that is brainlesly easy then why anyone compialned on current form of farming which is basicly the same , RNG with a chance to get something forcing You to do some content countless times.

Because it's boring.

Juhasow wrote: »

So by saying that imo countless vFG or any vet dung runs isnt brainlesly easy form of farming that crystals and it'll be harder then most of scrubs were thinking i contradict myself ? Maybe You should also check what that word means. Also like I said previously look at thread title to catch the context.

No, I shouldn't check what it means. vFG is brainlessly easy regardless of your opinion.

STEVIL wrote: »

If the current system goes live as is, i do have to stop doing the bulk of the game quest content and go run the pledges and such in order to gain crystals if i want. the two do not overlap. Saying "just do one and then the other" does not change that.

If the crystals dropped just for PVP success, would you think "hey trial and pledge guys can just go to pvp so no problem" or would you wonder why that section of the playerbase which can benefit from the new sub-system was cut out?

Just like I have to stop doing the bulk of the game content I want to do and:
-fish if I want fish and perfect roe;
-collect skyshards if I want skillpoints;
-PvP if I want skills that are in pvp skill lines;
etc.

Am I cut out of those things? According to your logic I am, but I'm not. It's up to me and it's my choice what content to do. Different content gives different rewards.

That's how it works. If you want something - you do what gives it to you. Grow up already.

STEVIL wrote: »

Not sure if you are aware but the questlines are often more time consuming than a dungeon or trial. They take up more playtime for the major ones. if i had to slate a starting point it would be something like this:
1 guaranteed crystal for finishing successfully each main zone questline - the big finale for auridon etc along with its precursors - like you saw in the silver and gold caldwell countdowns.
1 guarantied crystal for finishing the main questline.- you know saving nirn
A chance at a crystal for finishing smaller questlines such as mage's guild and fighter's guild. Say 1/4 chance you get for finishing normal content in the current "list of worthy"
Since these quests are not repeatable for a character, there do not need to be "time limits" imposed on them. Thay have a static limit.

Not sure if you're aware, but this is false. vHoF is much much more consuming for any group who is just starting progressing there. And it's not just about time, it's also about effort. You know what else is time consuming? Fishing. You hardy deserve anything more than what you're already getting for just pressing one button. Same with quests. Quests require nothing but time.

STEVIL wrote: »

But, you know, when a boxer does decide to play chess under FIDE, the already existing chess players do not get a more efficient sub-system that helps them get better pieces, right? There are no "gold" knights and special sub-systems that allow existing non-boxers to swap for gold bishops but which require boxers to spend their tempers on. The existing non-boxer has not one single in-game provided edge over the boxer chess player - he has to succeed or fail on the same terms.

this new sub-system provides another option for mostly non-questline content that has benefits that all could gain from.

And every time i see another "they dont need it " argument i have to come back to "then why is it so important they not get it?"

Absolutely, no more efficient sub system. You want chess medals? You go play chess. Can play in a tournament A or tournament B - but it has to be a tournament that gives chess medals. Boxers don't get to receive chess medals if they keep boxing.

Similarly, questers don't get to receive crystals that are rewards for end-game content for end-game players. Period. Want crystals? Play content that gives crystals. If anything, crystals are more expensive than gold tempers - it takes longer to get 40 crystals than to get 8 tempers (or to get gold to buy 8 tempers, rather).

STEVIL wrote: »

So if it doesn't matter if questers want to use it for BOE, if questers want to use it to not have to re-spend tempers and gold, if none of that matters then why is it so important they not be allowed to gain into that sub-system in the same content that gives them BoE gear?

They ARE ALLOWED to gain into that sub-system. Also, why ask for a more expensive and time consuming option anyway? But yeah. EVERYONE IS ALLOWED to get crystals. Stop lying. The sources of crystals are known - go and get them. Or why are end-game trial players are not allowed to gain into crafting system? Why am I not allowed to get pledge rewards as an end-game player who runs vhof?

THat's what you're saying. It makes no sense.

STEVIL wrote: »

I am not weighing in on the grandfathering or not. ZOS tends to not grandfather things with new additions but they have i believe at one point did so with mementos. So, rude or not, they have precedent for both options and they have the quest completion data stored for each character, so they have the options to go either way.

A similar but not exactly the same "but what about before the sub-system drops" argument can be made for the content listed as "worthy". is it rude to tell someone who has run VMA 100 times already they get no crystals to reflect that achievement and have to start now at the same point as someone who has run it twice? Should certain past-achievements be recognized by awarding crystals at start, like happened with say trophies or mementos when new systems came in for those?

good question?

No, not good. Ridiculous , just like the one I asked. The whole point of me asking was to show that it's ridiculous and won't be done. But the difference between your question and mine is that I can go and complete vMA one more time even if I completed it before. I can't complete quests I already completed.

STEVIL wrote: »

huh... if i play thw "worthy" content and get crystals, i can take my existing gold gear (BOP and BOE) and re-trait them. if i don't, i cant and have to re-craft or re-farm or re-buy and then get it up to the quality.

That really sounds like an alternative to re-golding a item you got to get another trait.

or are you confused and think when you re-trait a item its quality resets to normal?

or are you just irked that an actual "benefit" that applies to BOE and Crafted shows up the flaws in the "no need" argument?

I suppose you CAN. But why would you do it if you somehow can get the right trait without retraiting? Golding it is cheaper than retraiting. Getting 40 crystals from dungeons/trials takes much longer than getting gold tempers. Simple example: you need to do 40 trial runs to get 40 crystals.1 run gives you 12-15 undaunted plunder worth 1k each to a vendor. On PC NA tempering alloy is around 8k, dreugh wax is around 4k, so is rosin. To upgrade an item you need 8 tempers. Let's take alloys as the most expensive ones: 8*8=64k gold needed. 64/15 =4.2 ; 64/12=5.3. So you need not more than 5-6 trial runs to gold a metal item (5 runs of vHOF or vMOL, 6 runs of another trial) or 3-4 runs to upgrade cloth/leather.

That is MUCH LESS than 40 runs. In fact, retraiting ONE item with crystals is equivalent to golding 6-8 items! And that's the worst case scenario = you decided to farm gold directly in trials. There are better ways.

You don't see the point or what? The system is for players who can't get that one trait they need so that they can retrait any trait of that item. It is cheaper to gold other items.

It's not an alternative to golding a new item. It CAN be used as an alternative, but isn't meant to be that. It's like, idk , bicycle is an alternative to a car or an airplane. I guess you could use to get from point A to point B, but why? It's designed to travel in certain conditions, not to cover long distances. But yes you can travel 1000 miles on it. Doesn't mean it's an alternative.

STEVIL wrote: »

Well, if you don't **need** to keep them out them i suppose you are arguing in favor of the current proposal maybe because you just **want** to keep them out so why should your *want* but not *need* stop others from having the content they play be more enjoyable?

See, one of these *wants* does not affect the other side at all and one of these *wants* leaves a large swath of content players in the lurch... so why choose to argue for the one that impacts others? if i get a crystal for finishing off molag bal, that does not sneak in and take a crystal from you? Really, all those crystals you get from the "worthy" content are safe... we questers wont be pickpocketing them from you?

No, I don't want to keep anyone out. No one is kept out, in fact, which is what I'm trying to show. If you get a crystal for molag bal , yes it does take a crystal from me in the sense that the difference of the number of crystals you and I have decreased. However, I can't get that same crystal that you got, because I already killed molag bal and can't repeat that quest. And I would love to get a crystal for something as dumb easy as doing a quest. Yet, I need to complete a vet trial AND be good enough to get on leaderboards, while you can just get it for a quest. Why would you want to do something as unfair as that?

STEVIL wrote: »

You *need* to look up hypocrite. i am not establishing *need* as a prerequisite for being included in content. You are the one trying to use *need* for this piece of content and then defining your own criteria for need as if your values apply universally. If questers get crystals for major questing and questers use them on the same BOE gear you can as a "worthy" content runner, that does not affect you, does it? So why keep them out?

No I don't. I know what it means and I know one when I see one. You are a hypocrite because you don't care that I'm excluded for content but insist on getting special treatment just for yourself. And no, I don't care about keeping them out. I am showing you that they in fact are not kept out. Not more than I'm kept out of content I choose not to do.

STEVIL wrote: »

SKYSHARDS provide no benefit in and of themselves - they provide skill points. Skills points can be gained from the contents included in "the worthy" whether by dint of levels or completion rewards. Without the **fuel** a quester cannot re-trait an existing item and can only acquire a new weapon and then raise its quality.

Skyshards aren't provided by "the worthy" content. Skill points are given for the dungeon quests, but that's not enough skill points and anyway we were talking about the end-game content, which most dungeons are not - they are too easy to be referred to as end-game "worthy" content. To get skill points I want, I need to stop doing content I'm doing and go get my skill points. A quester who doesn't do content giving BOP gear can get a gear with the trait he wants without retraiting. Or he can do content that gives crystals just like I'd need to do activities that give skill points.

STEVIL wrote: »

Crafting/PVP skills - Every skill line in the game has certain aspects which feed their advancement and unlock their options. The difference here is the consumable fuel needed to feed this new benefit is what is being locked down, preventing any substantive use. i can advance my pvp skill lines to like 2 or is it 3 now, been too long, by just doing the "training quest" and get several pvp skills unlocked that i can then advance while questing.

No, the training quest does't give you several pvp skills. Only the first one. If I need to do pvp to unlock more skills or if I need to craft to get crafted gear - am I locked out? No,I'm not. Similarly, you aren't locked out of that fuel- you can do content that gives it. Or, by your logic, if you are locked out, then I am locked out, too. Yet, you are okay with me being locked out and are looking for excuses not to count it as being locked - that's hypocritical.

STEVIL wrote: »

Quest rewards: ??? ??? ??? Not sure what quest rewards you refer to but it seems some folks feel the gear gained from questing is available at every store for pennies? Seems to me that if you were fine with that as the "unworthy" alternative to crystals you would be fine with that for your end as well. And again, we are talking about here a reward that once gained you always have wheras for crystals we are talking about consumable fuel needed to drive the subsystem. its literally the difference between one time permanent reward and an ongoing consumable. its "give a fish" vs "teach to fish" at its finest.

Using your logic - you don't need to be sure or know what rewards I refer to. I just want them for doing the content I'm doing. Maybe I want that crystal that transforms me into a goblin or skeleton, or maybe I want the Scarlet Judge costume, or maybe I want that infused war maiden staff given for one of the quests. So you are fine that I can buy it for gold? I'm not locked out in that case? Then you aren't locked out either. You can buy gold tempers for gold, or farm raw mats and refine them. And there you go, can get all your BOE gear in whichever trait you want. It doesn't matter if reward is gained once or it's a fuel. You HAVE an alternative already. I don't. If I want that scarlet judge costume, then I HAVE to do quests.

What about AP or Tel Var - that fuel that is needed to buy stuff in Cyrodiil or IC? Turns out I can't get that fuel doing the content I want. Can you tell ZOS I'm locked out, too?

Or can you create a thread asking to give the Scarlet Judge costume for trials or pvp and not just for quests? Because I haven't seen any threads where you're asking to give quest rewards for other content, but you want the rewards from other content to be given for quests? That's hypocrisy right there.

And let's not forget, that - as you are pointing out - it's an ongoing consumable. In that case, again, giving it for one-time content is not doing anything. Would you be happy if you just got 1 for saving nirn? When you need 40 for just 1 item. Or what if you get X for all quests, but ran out of quests and want to retrait something else. What are you gonna say then? You will have no choice but play the repeatable content anyway. Or look at it from another angle. ZOS wants more people playing group content, so they give more rewards for that type of content. Because why even talk about crystals. What about undaunted keys? How come I can only get it for pledges? Like, if I want a monster set - why should I stop doing quests ("my content")? No, let's ask ZOS to give monster sets for quests.

STEVIL wrote: »

Trading: i have no idea how you think you are cut out by trading if questers get a shot at crystals from their content? Whether or not you can trade is more an issue of the BOP vs BOE choices made by ZOS. if you think i am somehow by asking for questers to get a shot at shards in their content making a case **for* *BOP* or *more BOP* then your logic is... astonishing.

And I have no idea how you think you are cut out of crystals. This argument has nothing to do with BOP. It's to show that to get benefits of trading - I need to join a trading guild and spend time trading, instead of doing "my" content. Similarly, questers can stop doing "their" content if they want something that's rewarded by other activities.

Or you gotta admit that I'm locked out of skill points and new motifs because I don't pickpocket.

P.S. I don't care either way if crystals are given for quests. But I call out illogical arguments and hypocrisy when I see them. And I will insist on two things: 1) Questers aren't locked out of the system. 2) If they are , then it's hypocritical to say that end-gamers aren't locked out of quest rewards, skyshards etc. and it's hypocritical to only ask to fix what benefits you but be okay that other keep being locked out of rewards that aren't a part of their content.

DPShiro · September 2017

Artis wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Telling crafters "just recraft your gear with the new trait and expend the new tempers while we just re-trait using shards we collect by running the same content we were running before" is a position i find very unacceptable on a personal level.

What's the problem with that? That's equal treatment. Are you against equality and equal treatment? "We" need to run content again to get new crystals we didn't have before. Crafters will use "new" tempers that they got doing the same content they were doing before that always gave them tempers. It's even easier for crafters - they can recraft their gear already without waiting for the update.

STEVIL wrote: »

And let me be clear, i say that as someone who routinely solos undaunted pledges ...

...Why... there was no need and little to gain.

however, if transmute crystals were added, there would be qa reason and a benefit to quest those characters thru that content again and **in the process** run into others also running that content, some for the first time.

So while **technically** that content is not repeatable by the same character, it is still a long batch of content that many characters as alts may not have ever ran - partly because there was little point.

Ah so I was right. You don't argue in good faith and don't support questers. You just want an even easier way to get crystals to update your endgame gear that you got by completing veteran content solo.

Juhasow wrote: »

If that is brainlesly easy then why anyone compialned on current form of farming which is basicly the same , RNG with a chance to get something forcing You to do some content countless times.

Because it's boring.

Juhasow wrote: »

So by saying that imo countless vFG or any vet dung runs isnt brainlesly easy form of farming that crystals and it'll be harder then most of scrubs were thinking i contradict myself ? Maybe You should also check what that word means. Also like I said previously look at thread title to catch the context.

No, I shouldn't check what it means. vFG is brainlessly easy regardless of your opinion.

STEVIL wrote: »

If the current system goes live as is, i do have to stop doing the bulk of the game quest content and go run the pledges and such in order to gain crystals if i want. the two do not overlap. Saying "just do one and then the other" does not change that.

If the crystals dropped just for PVP success, would you think "hey trial and pledge guys can just go to pvp so no problem" or would you wonder why that section of the playerbase which can benefit from the new sub-system was cut out?

Just like I have to stop doing the bulk of the game content I want to do and:
-fish if I want fish and perfect roe;
-collect skyshards if I want skillpoints;
-PvP if I want skills that are in pvp skill lines;
etc.

Am I cut out of those things? According to your logic I am, but I'm not. It's up to me and it's my choice what content to do. Different content gives different rewards.

That's how it works. If you want something - you do what gives it to you. Grow up already.

STEVIL wrote: »

Not sure if you are aware but the questlines are often more time consuming than a dungeon or trial. They take up more playtime for the major ones. if i had to slate a starting point it would be something like this:
1 guaranteed crystal for finishing successfully each main zone questline - the big finale for auridon etc along with its precursors - like you saw in the silver and gold caldwell countdowns.
1 guarantied crystal for finishing the main questline.- you know saving nirn
A chance at a crystal for finishing smaller questlines such as mage's guild and fighter's guild. Say 1/4 chance you get for finishing normal content in the current "list of worthy"
Since these quests are not repeatable for a character, there do not need to be "time limits" imposed on them. Thay have a static limit.

Not sure if you're aware, but this is false. vHoF is much much more consuming for any group who is just starting progressing there. And it's not just about time, it's also about effort. You know what else is time consuming? Fishing. You hardy deserve anything more than what you're already getting for just pressing one button. Same with quests. Quests require nothing but time.

STEVIL wrote: »

But, you know, when a boxer does decide to play chess under FIDE, the already existing chess players do not get a more efficient sub-system that helps them get better pieces, right? There are no "gold" knights and special sub-systems that allow existing non-boxers to swap for gold bishops but which require boxers to spend their tempers on. The existing non-boxer has not one single in-game provided edge over the boxer chess player - he has to succeed or fail on the same terms.

this new sub-system provides another option for mostly non-questline content that has benefits that all could gain from.

And every time i see another "they dont need it " argument i have to come back to "then why is it so important they not get it?"

Absolutely, no more efficient sub system. You want chess medals? You go play chess. Can play in a tournament A or tournament B - but it has to be a tournament that gives chess medals. Boxers don't get to receive chess medals if they keep boxing.

Similarly, questers don't get to receive crystals that are rewards for end-game content for end-game players. Period. Want crystals? Play content that gives crystals. If anything, crystals are more expensive than gold tempers - it takes longer to get 40 crystals than to get 8 tempers (or to get gold to buy 8 tempers, rather).

STEVIL wrote: »

So if it doesn't matter if questers want to use it for BOE, if questers want to use it to not have to re-spend tempers and gold, if none of that matters then why is it so important they not be allowed to gain into that sub-system in the same content that gives them BoE gear?

They ARE ALLOWED to gain into that sub-system. Also, why ask for a more expensive and time consuming option anyway? But yeah. EVERYONE IS ALLOWED to get crystals. Stop lying. The sources of crystals are known - go and get them. Or why are end-game trial players are not allowed to gain into crafting system? Why am I not allowed to get pledge rewards as an end-game player who runs vhof?

THat's what you're saying. It makes no sense.

STEVIL wrote: »

I am not weighing in on the grandfathering or not. ZOS tends to not grandfather things with new additions but they have i believe at one point did so with mementos. So, rude or not, they have precedent for both options and they have the quest completion data stored for each character, so they have the options to go either way.

A similar but not exactly the same "but what about before the sub-system drops" argument can be made for the content listed as "worthy". is it rude to tell someone who has run VMA 100 times already they get no crystals to reflect that achievement and have to start now at the same point as someone who has run it twice? Should certain past-achievements be recognized by awarding crystals at start, like happened with say trophies or mementos when new systems came in for those?

good question?

No, not good. Ridiculous , just like the one I asked. The whole point of me asking was to show that it's ridiculous and won't be done. But the difference between your question and mine is that I can go and complete vMA one more time even if I completed it before. I can't complete quests I already completed.

STEVIL wrote: »

huh... if i play thw "worthy" content and get crystals, i can take my existing gold gear (BOP and BOE) and re-trait them. if i don't, i cant and have to re-craft or re-farm or re-buy and then get it up to the quality.

That really sounds like an alternative to re-golding a item you got to get another trait.

or are you confused and think when you re-trait a item its quality resets to normal?

or are you just irked that an actual "benefit" that applies to BOE and Crafted shows up the flaws in the "no need" argument?

I suppose you CAN. But why would you do it if you somehow can get the right trait without retraiting? Golding it is cheaper than retraiting. Getting 40 crystals from dungeons/trials takes much longer than getting gold tempers. Simple example: you need to do 40 trial runs to get 40 crystals.1 run gives you 12-15 undaunted plunder worth 1k each to a vendor. On PC NA tempering alloy is around 8k, dreugh wax is around 4k, so is rosin. To upgrade an item you need 8 tempers. Let's take alloys as the most expensive ones: 8*8=64k gold needed. 64/15 =4.2 ; 64/12=5.3. So you need not more than 5-6 trial runs to gold a metal item (5 runs of vHOF or vMOL, 6 runs of another trial) or 3-4 runs to upgrade cloth/leather.

That is MUCH LESS than 40 runs. In fact, retraiting ONE item with crystals is equivalent to golding 6-8 items! And that's the worst case scenario = you decided to farm gold directly in trials. There are better ways.

You don't see the point or what? The system is for players who can't get that one trait they need so that they can retrait any trait of that item. It is cheaper to gold other items.

It's not an alternative to golding a new item. It CAN be used as an alternative, but isn't meant to be that. It's like, idk , bicycle is an alternative to a car or an airplane. I guess you could use to get from point A to point B, but why? It's designed to travel in certain conditions, not to cover long distances. But yes you can travel 1000 miles on it. Doesn't mean it's an alternative.

STEVIL wrote: »

Well, if you don't **need** to keep them out them i suppose you are arguing in favor of the current proposal maybe because you just **want** to keep them out so why should your *want* but not *need* stop others from having the content they play be more enjoyable?

See, one of these *wants* does not affect the other side at all and one of these *wants* leaves a large swath of content players in the lurch... so why choose to argue for the one that impacts others? if i get a crystal for finishing off molag bal, that does not sneak in and take a crystal from you? Really, all those crystals you get from the "worthy" content are safe... we questers wont be pickpocketing them from you?

No, I don't want to keep anyone out. No one is kept out, in fact, which is what I'm trying to show. If you get a crystal for molag bal , yes it does take a crystal from me in the sense that the difference of the number of crystals you and I have decreased. However, I can't get that same crystal that you got, because I already killed molag bal and can't repeat that quest. And I would love to get a crystal for something as dumb easy as doing a quest. Yet, I need to complete a vet trial AND be good enough to get on leaderboards, while you can just get it for a quest. Why would you want to do something as unfair as that?

STEVIL wrote: »

You *need* to look up hypocrite. i am not establishing *need* as a prerequisite for being included in content. You are the one trying to use *need* for this piece of content and then defining your own criteria for need as if your values apply universally. If questers get crystals for major questing and questers use them on the same BOE gear you can as a "worthy" content runner, that does not affect you, does it? So why keep them out?

No I don't. I know what it means and I know one when I see one. You are a hypocrite because you don't care that I'm excluded for content but insist on getting special treatment just for yourself. And no, I don't care about keeping them out. I am showing you that they in fact are not kept out. Not more than I'm kept out of content I choose not to do.

STEVIL wrote: »

SKYSHARDS provide no benefit in and of themselves - they provide skill points. Skills points can be gained from the contents included in "the worthy" whether by dint of levels or completion rewards. Without the **fuel** a quester cannot re-trait an existing item and can only acquire a new weapon and then raise its quality.

Skyshards aren't provided by "the worthy" content. Skill points are given for the dungeon quests, but that's not enough skill points and anyway we were talking about the end-game content, which most dungeons are not - they are too easy to be referred to as end-game "worthy" content. To get skill points I want, I need to stop doing content I'm doing and go get my skill points. A quester who doesn't do content giving BOP gear can get a gear with the trait he wants without retraiting. Or he can do content that gives crystals just like I'd need to do activities that give skill points.

STEVIL wrote: »

Crafting/PVP skills - Every skill line in the game has certain aspects which feed their advancement and unlock their options. The difference here is the consumable fuel needed to feed this new benefit is what is being locked down, preventing any substantive use. i can advance my pvp skill lines to like 2 or is it 3 now, been too long, by just doing the "training quest" and get several pvp skills unlocked that i can then advance while questing.

No, the training quest does't give you several pvp skills. Only the first one. If I need to do pvp to unlock more skills or if I need to craft to get crafted gear - am I locked out? No,I'm not. Similarly, you aren't locked out of that fuel- you can do content that gives it. Or, by your logic, if you are locked out, then I am locked out, too. Yet, you are okay with me being locked out and are looking for excuses not to count it as being locked - that's hypocritical.

STEVIL wrote: »

Quest rewards: ??? ??? ??? Not sure what quest rewards you refer to but it seems some folks feel the gear gained from questing is available at every store for pennies? Seems to me that if you were fine with that as the "unworthy" alternative to crystals you would be fine with that for your end as well. And again, we are talking about here a reward that once gained you always have wheras for crystals we are talking about consumable fuel needed to drive the subsystem. its literally the difference between one time permanent reward and an ongoing consumable. its "give a fish" vs "teach to fish" at its finest.

Using your logic - you don't need to be sure or know what rewards I refer to. I just want them for doing the content I'm doing. Maybe I want that crystal that transforms me into a goblin or skeleton, or maybe I want the Scarlet Judge costume, or maybe I want that infused war maiden staff given for one of the quests. So you are fine that I can buy it for gold? I'm not locked out in that case? Then you aren't locked out either. You can buy gold tempers for gold, or farm raw mats and refine them. And there you go, can get all your BOE gear in whichever trait you want. It doesn't matter if reward is gained once or it's a fuel. You HAVE an alternative already. I don't. If I want that scarlet judge costume, then I HAVE to do quests.

What about AP or Tel Var - that fuel that is needed to buy stuff in Cyrodiil or IC? Turns out I can't get that fuel doing the content I want. Can you tell ZOS I'm locked out, too?

Or can you create a thread asking to give the Scarlet Judge costume for trials or pvp and not just for quests? Because I haven't seen any threads where you're asking to give quest rewards for other content, but you want the rewards from other content to be given for quests? That's hypocrisy right there.

And let's not forget, that - as you are pointing out - it's an ongoing consumable. In that case, again, giving it for one-time content is not doing anything. Would you be happy if you just got 1 for saving nirn? When you need 40 for just 1 item. Or what if you get X for all quests, but ran out of quests and want to retrait something else. What are you gonna say then? You will have no choice but play the repeatable content anyway. Or look at it from another angle. ZOS wants more people playing group content, so they give more rewards for that type of content. Because why even talk about crystals. What about undaunted keys? How come I can only get it for pledges? Like, if I want a monster set - why should I stop doing quests ("my content")? No, let's ask ZOS to give monster sets for quests.

STEVIL wrote: »

Trading: i have no idea how you think you are cut out by trading if questers get a shot at crystals from their content? Whether or not you can trade is more an issue of the BOP vs BOE choices made by ZOS. if you think i am somehow by asking for questers to get a shot at shards in their content making a case **for* *BOP* or *more BOP* then your logic is... astonishing.

And I have no idea how you think you are cut out of crystals. This argument has nothing to do with BOP. It's to show that to get benefits of trading - I need to join a trading guild and spend time trading, instead of doing "my" content. Similarly, questers can stop doing "their" content if they want something that's rewarded by other activities.

Or you gotta admit that I'm locked out of skill points and new motifs because I don't pickpocket.

P.S. I don't care either way if crystals are given for quests. But I call out illogical arguments and hypocrisy when I see them. And I will insist on two things: 1) Questers aren't locked out of the system. 2) If they are , then it's hypocritical to say that end-gamers aren't locked out of quest rewards, skyshards etc. and it's hypocritical to only ask to fix what benefits you but be okay that other keep being locked out of rewards that aren't a part of their content.

This is probably the best post/reply I've ever read on this forum.

STEVIL · September 2017

@Artis

"Ah so I was right. You don't argue in good faith and don't support questers. You just want an even easier way to get crystals to update your endgame gear that you got by completing veteran content solo."

Ok so posturing about not arguing in good faith and not blah blah falls flat when you intentionally throw together disparate sections froma post, cutting out intervening sections to try and fabricate a connection and conclusion. there was a lot of text between that "why sentence and that next section that you chose to cut out that helped establish the content.

But as for your conclusion, even in the section you did cite, it was about reasons to run the questing content on alts, something that has diminished a lot in the last year or so.

So to then jump to a conclusion that its not about questing content is absurd.

besides, again, it is quicker to get crystals from vet dungeons than to run thru the whole of a zone's questline, so an argument that my asking for personal gain blah blah a slower way to "get more crystals" fails a big logic test. i do have characters who can do the main quests and it would be good to have a reason to do them again.

i think the last six i leveled to max maybe finished three zones to get to 50.

next logic fail...

"Similarly, questers don't get to receive crystals that are rewards for end-game content for end-game players. Period. Want crystals? Play content that gives crystals."

The issue being questioned is should this be the case - that these crystals are "rewards for in-game content" as opposed to rewards on a broader scale.. so just repeating the "this is how it works so thats how it is" refrain does not cut it.

And remember, normal content such as dungeons bosses also are listed there.

"No, I don't want to keep anyone out. No one is kept out, in fact, which is what I'm trying to show. If you get a crystal for molag bal , yes it does take a crystal from me in the sense that the difference of the number of crystals you and I have decreased. However, I can't get that same crystal that you got, because I already killed molag bal and can't repeat that quest. And I would love to get a crystal for something as dumb easy as doing a quest. Yet, I need to complete a vet trial AND be good enough to get on leaderboards, while you can just get it for a quest. Why would you want to do something as unfair as that?"

You have a very unusual concept of what it means to have something taken from you. this is not a zero sum game. you and i can both gain crystals. if you think everyone else getting a crystal when they run any of the content that gives out crystals is taking them from you, you must have real anxiety when you consider how many other people play this game.

And in the second part there you drive right back to the worthy argument. others shouldn't get crystals for doing content you dont approve of... and then in that very first sentence you so clearly proclaim its not about keeping anyone out. And again you pretend its very hard to get crystals by the content they provide - which is absurd.. four man group vet pledge is easy and quicker than a zones main questline all the way thru. neither tough unless you find a way to make it so. Your vet pledge group would get their four crystals in 30m say and according to some it might take as little as an hour for a quester to get one.

if thats unfair, its the hour vs 30m for the same one crystal per person.

You seem to have this big hangup on "worthy content" vs "unworthy content" and making sure the players of the latter dont get the stuff you want kept to yourself. That seems where you hang your "fair" on.

me? I dont think my gameplay preferences are any more "righteous" and deserving of reward than other folks and I put a value of the real resource people commit to this game - time. So, yeah, it seems quite fair to me for those investing a lot of time in finishing major questlines to get included in the new subsystem that can aide their rewards for that content.

So to me "fair" is I play the content i want and you play the content i want and the new subsystem that can help the rewards we get from either type of content is tied into both of our preferences, not just yours.

next topic...
"No, the training quest does't give you several pvp skills. Only the first one."
Its in both the skill lines right, so more than one?

next topic
"Using your logic - you don't need to be sure or know what rewards I refer to."

if you pay attention and try to honestly reflect the discussion you know that i dont need to know what rewards you prefer in order to approve of your getting them. but the reference was to the vague reference you made to unnamed quest rewards and in order to discuss or consider them here, we do need to know what you were referring to.

again you conflate one point into another.

But,. i don't argue to cut out you from rewards just because i think they are not worthy.

Finally we have this imaginative re-telling
"P.S. I don't care either way if crystals are given for quests. But I call out illogical arguments and hypocrisy when I see them. And I will insist on two things: 1) Questers aren't locked out of the system. 2) If they are , then it's hypocritical to say that end-gamers aren't locked out of quest rewards, skyshards etc. and it's hypocritical to only ask to fix what benefits you but be okay that other keep being locked out of rewards that aren't a part of their content."

yes but if we are to believe this then why all that stuff you posted about unfair and too easy? that seems to not fit your refined definition of what you were talking about at all but it sure played a large role in your posts?

Revvisionist history much?

So no matter how much re-imagining of this or that you want to keep going with i still say the design decision to exclude the bulk of the main questing content from earning the fuel of the re-trait sub-system that can benefit the rewards that content drops is a very very bad idea and should be changed.

Artis · September 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

@Artis

But as for your conclusion, even in the section you did cite, it was about reasons to run the questing content on alts, something that has diminished a lot in the last year or so.

So to then jump to a conclusion that its not about questing content is absurd.

besides, again, it is quicker to get crystals from vet dungeons than to run thru the whole of a zone's questline, so an argument that my asking for personal gain blah blah a slower way to "get more crystals" fails a big logic test. i do have characters who can do the main quests and it would be good to have a reason to do them again.

i think the last six i leveled to max maybe finished three zones to get to 50.

I only cite sections that have any argument, not completely irrelevant - that would take even more time. Reasons to run questing on any character is fun. if it's not fun and you don't enjoy the story - then don't run quests. They are one-shot content. They are made for those who wants to understand how the world works a little better.

No, that's not necessarily quicker. Besides, in dungeons you can be unlucky to get a bad group or spend a lot of time waiting for a group. In quests - no. You need to go afk to die or fail. Without reading dialogues quests are nothing more than running around and pressing 2 buttons. Dumb easy and fast.

STEVIL wrote: »

next logic fail...

To have a "next" something, first there has to be a first something. Which is not the case here. My logic is flawless, and you probably don't understand what logic fail means or at least how it looks. So before insulting people who spent years in academia, maybe you might wanna make sure you know what you are talking about next time.

STEVIL wrote: »

The issue being questioned is should this be the case - that these crystals are "rewards for in-game content" as opposed to rewards on a broader scale.. so just repeating the "this is how it works so thats how it is" refrain does not cut it.

And remember, normal content such as dungeons bosses also are listed there.

Yes it should. Your question is answered. Next.

Yeah, I agree normal dungeons giving them is pretty dumb with how easy they are, however, it is consistent with the whole point of the system, which is being able to get that one trait of a BOP item that just won't drop. So people who care for that BOP gear can get some crystals regardless of where they are in their progression now - veterans or just beginners running normals.

But again, ZOS wants people to get out and see dungeons and other group content, so even if normals are easy - they are group content so ZOS gives some crystals there. But don't forget, that you only have "a chance of obtaining" them there, so it makes sense - you get more if you run vet content. And of course things can always be changed in the future.

STEVIL wrote: »

You have a very unusual concept of what it means to have something taken from you. this is not a zero sum game. you and i can both gain crystals. if you think everyone else getting a crystal when they run any of the content that gives out crystals is taking them from you, you must have real anxiety when you consider how many other people play this game.

And in the second part there you drive right back to the worthy argument. others shouldn't get crystals for doing content you dont approve of... and then in that very first sentence you so clearly proclaim its not about keeping anyone out. And again you pretend its very hard to get crystals by the content they provide - which is absurd.. four man group vet pledge is easy and quicker than a zones main questline all the way thru. neither tough unless you find a way to make it so. Your vet pledge group would get their four crystals in 30m say and according to some it might take as little as an hour for a quester to get one.

if thats unfair, its the hour vs 30m for the same one crystal per person.

You seem to have this big hangup on "worthy content" vs "unworthy content" and making sure the players of the latter dont get the stuff you want kept to yourself. That seems where you hang your "fair" on.

me? I dont think my gameplay preferences are any more "righteous" and deserving of reward than other folks and I put a value of the real resource people commit to this game - time. So, yeah, it seems quite fair to me for those investing a lot of time in finishing major questlines to get included in the new subsystem that can aide their rewards for that content.

So to me "fair" is I play the content i want and you play the content i want and the new subsystem that can help the rewards we get from either type of content is tied into both of our preferences, not just yours.

It's a very usual concept. Saying that us getting rewards proportional to the effort we put in is fair - that's not unusual.

Time is not equivalent to effort. 1H spent doing quests didn't require any effort. 30 mins in a dungeon was only 30 mins because there was enough DPS, no one screwed up etc. There are chances that a group will wipe,etc. But I do agree with what you said in general. 1h vs 30 mins is unfair. Just not comparing quests to vet pledges. Comparing trials to vet pledges! Trials should give much more crystals.

Time? It's your choice to spend 1 hour doing 1 quest. No quest is that long. If you care about completion only you can just click through dialogues, not read optional dialogues and run between objectives very fast. And you should understand that time put into a dungeon run is not just time it took to run. It's also time it took to get a group together, it's time it took to learn how to play and maybe to meet people who are also good and will run with you, etc.

If you only measure things by time, can I get crystals for hanging out in the zone chat chatting? Can I get crystals for fishing? Can I get crystals for beating on a target dummy? For moving furniture in my house for hours?

STEVIL wrote: »

"No, the training quest does't give you several pvp skills. Only the first one."
Its in both the skill lines right, so more than one?

Ouch, you're one of those. Yeah, obviously the first one in each skill line. Yes more than one, no, not one of them is a good one. Stam is locked out of vigor and caltrops according to your logic.

STEVIL wrote: »

if you pay attention and try to honestly reflect the discussion you know that i dont need to know what rewards you prefer in order to approve of your getting them. but the reference was to the vague reference you made to unnamed quest rewards and in order to discuss or consider them here, we do need to know what you were referring to.

Ah ok, you wanted to know what rewards I was talking about and I answered that anyway. You however still didn't answer what gear you were going to retrait.

STEVIL wrote: »

yes but if we are to believe this then why all that stuff you posted about unfair and too easy? that seems to not fit your refined definition of what you were talking about at all but it sure played a large role in your posts?

Because that's meant to show you that you're asking to hand out stuff that other people have to put more effort to obtain.

You forgot to comment on much more important parts, such as showing mathematically that it's faster to get gold to regold an item than to retrait it. You also forgot to address more examples of people being locked out of something.

I get it you understood that you aren't excluded or cut out?

STEVIL wrote: »

So no matter how much re-imagining of this or that you want to keep going with i still say the design decision to exclude the bulk of the main questing content from earning the fuel of the re-trait sub-system that can benefit the rewards that content drops is a very very bad idea and should be changed.

Ah nvm, still this nonsense. Guess if logic doesn't work, we should try sarcasm and making fun of your claims? Something like

Oh, so the design decision to exclude PvPers from earning the fuel of the crafting/golding sub-system that can benefit the reward that their content drops and can allow them to buy potions and such is a very very bad idea and should be changed.

That's the type of nonsense you are saying. Let's give AP to everyone who wants it. Let's give AP and crystals for fishing. Or wait? Help me, your fellow quester, to get AP without stopping doing my content. I wanna do quests but get AP for that, can I?

And yet, you are okay with me HAVING TO DO quests to get that Scarlet Judge costume. Still no comment about it? No idea what re-imagining you are talking about. There's nothing of a sort, there's just calling your hypocrisy out. I don't recall you applying your argument the other way around and giving me non-quest options of getting quest rewards.

Or can I get that costume for just keeping pvping or doing trials? And can I have vvardenfell motifs without doing dailies or pickpocketing? Or am I locked out and it's okay?

And finally, you are not excluded from anything. Stop repeating this non sense. It is your choice to do the content that gives certain rewards or not to do it.

Dymence · September 2017

Vet trials should have a 100% droprate on them.

Why should Vet undaunted pledges have a 100% droprate but Trials only drop it once a week from the weekly quest? For a much harder activity? Seems backwards.

Taleof2Cities · September 2017

Dymence wrote: »

Vet trials should have a 100% droprate on them.

Why should Vet undaunted pledges have a 100% droprate but Trials only drop it once a week from the weekly quest? For a much harder activity? Seems backwards.

A simple search in the forums will yield the answer for you ...

bebynnag · September 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

puffytheslayer wrote: »

when you see a post

i dont do vet content & i dont do PvP how am i supposed to get the crystals

if you dont do vet content OR PvP you dont need the bloody crystals

you do not need best in slot for standing by a wayshirine gossiping! FML

Since those already running vet content, trials, pvp have been doing so for abc long already and likely will continue for the next 4-5 weeks without crystals, obviously they don't **need** the crystals either... they just want them.

**need** is not the threshold for getting included in a part of the game that can help you enjoy it more.

Well, it usually isn't until say someone wants something kept away from others.

just thinking out loud... wonder if the six figure prices on well traited staves of necropotence (to name one of several) has anything to do with some folks being hellbent on keeping questers from getting into the re-trait game?

i keep trying to find who would be hurt if they were included... is this six figure payday a "victim" if questers get the re-trait? Re-traited cant be sold but if questers can re-trait thats one potential customer gone.

one day @STEVIL i really hope you will learn to read someones post before posting a sanctamonius rant at them

for the record im not a farmer/seller, i farm my own gear not that it matters

there is a huge diffrence in difficulty between banished cells 1 on vet (which i can solo) and a vet trial. sure i dont NEED bis armour/weapons to farm banished cells but i need them if im going to improve my DPS enough to do a vet trial as a DD instead of as a tank/healer

Destruent · September 2017

Dymence wrote: »

Vet trials should have a 100% droprate on them.

Why should Vet undaunted pledges have a 100% droprate but Trials only drop it once a week from the weekly quest? For a much harder activity? Seems backwards.

@Dymence there's no 100% droprate in Dungeons, you have a Chance of getting one stone when you complete a dungeon, trial or get reward of the worthy.

STEVIL · September 2017

puffytheslayer wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

puffytheslayer wrote: »

when you see a post

i dont do vet content & i dont do PvP how am i supposed to get the crystals

if you dont do vet content OR PvP you dont need the bloody crystals

you do not need best in slot for standing by a wayshirine gossiping! FML

Since those already running vet content, trials, pvp have been doing so for abc long already and likely will continue for the next 4-5 weeks without crystals, obviously they don't **need** the crystals either... they just want them.

**need** is not the threshold for getting included in a part of the game that can help you enjoy it more.

Well, it usually isn't until say someone wants something kept away from others.

just thinking out loud... wonder if the six figure prices on well traited staves of necropotence (to name one of several) has anything to do with some folks being hellbent on keeping questers from getting into the re-trait game?

i keep trying to find who would be hurt if they were included... is this six figure payday a "victim" if questers get the re-trait? Re-traited cant be sold but if questers can re-trait thats one potential customer gone.

one day @STEVIL i really hope you will learn to read someones post before posting a sanctamonius rant at them

for the record im not a farmer/seller, i farm my own gear not that it matters

there is a huge diffrence in difficulty between banished cells 1 on vet (which i can solo) and a vet trial. sure i dont NEED bis armour/weapons to farm banished cells but i need them if im going to improve my DPS enough to do a vet trial as a DD instead of as a tank/healer

Whether or not you personally are a seller is not an issue I have not got any stake in but thanks for sharing.

My,pondering still stands tho - are the 6 figure sell prices perhaps the first identified victims if quarters can re-trait with crystal from questing.

But on another point - you and art is keep wanting to fret and fuss over how many crystal vet trial give vs the vet pledges or whatever. I am not taking a side either way on that but it should be clear I am not one of the "zoos made it this way so should not change" so if you can make the argument that one each is not sufficient for the investment, go for it.

My focus remains on the bigger pile of those who spend much more time questing thru the bulk of the content.

Juhasow · September 2017

Dymence wrote: »

Vet trials should have a 100% droprate on them.

Why should Vet undaunted pledges have a 100% droprate but Trials only drop it once a week from the weekly quest? For a much harder activity? Seems backwards.

@Dymence from dungeons You have 100% to get crystals from daily pledges and 1st random dungeon reward each day from trials it's weekly quest reward but we know there is option to get multiple crystals from different activities so it's possible You'll get multiple amount of crystals for weekly trial quest and 1 crystal for each dungeon related activity.

Same on bosses. It can be chance to get 1 crystal from veteran dungeon bosses and 2-3 crystals from veteran trial bosses. We'll see how things will go.

STEVIL · September 2017

@Artis

The difference with say you wanting a scarlet costume for the trial or arena and quarters wanting some crystals for finishing zone main quests are:

First, of course some of that content **does** provide things like that. Isn't there a skin for Maw? I am not asking for there to be no rewards separated by content just not the crystal fuel for the new sub-system and for a specific reason.

The reason is the second point, one I mentioned often enough already. The crystals directly apply to and can benefit the rewards given in questing. The main questioned in each zone drop set pieces and frequently uniquely named set pieces in scrappy or sub-optimal traits.

A different costume/skin gained in a trial or arena won't help your maelstrom staff or other piece. But a crystal can definitely help the Naryu weapons or that shield from the Rift.

As for AP vs Gold for PVP, obviously when they instituted PVP they made a choice to give PVP players an alternate currency unique to them instead of gold. That AP currency provides purchasing for stuff at various rates and its utility has been expanded over the years.

Maybe you have a beef with that and want to argue that instead of AP they should get gold... If so, feel free to start that thread.

But its not really relevant here to the where do crystal come from because of one simple fact...

Crystals are being ADDED.

There is not a PVP for AP currency or PVE for gold currency offset being put in place here. There is no trade off. There is no off-setting option being added.

The value of running several types of content is being raised and the bulk and backbone of the content in the game is being left out of the new additional reward with no commensurate gains.

You rail on about "effort" vs "reward" but the addition of crystals to you preferred content to defend do not get any up-tick in difficulty for gaining the new reward.

As for whether or not you want some rewards for chatting with your buds over supper about tomorrows dungeon rub or whatever, you can take up that cause yourself. Its not a cause I am engaging in.

Oh and somewhere you made some reference to what items I plan on retraining? Like anyone else, whatever I see a need to. Right now, I have the traits I want on my gear and have ZERO plans to go grinding for a better traits this or that of things I have.

So for me personally, the crystals would likely be used on new items gained going forward.

Not that that particularly matters but you had a question so... there you go.

Oh... And if you think trials are not giving enough crystals, by all means post that as feedback on its on. My primary reference point of concern is the investment in questing vs the investment in pledges and the relative gains cuz that content difficulty is more widely comparable IMO.

Whether leaderboards get more than vet pledges, I will leave for others to raise.

STEVIL · September 2017

@Artis

Pulling this one out for separate attention since its not really related to the topic but you made a point of it...

"To have a "next" something, first there has to be a first something. Which is not the case here. My logic is flawless, and you probably don't understand what logic fail means or at least how it looks. So before insulting people who spent years in academia, maybe you might wanna make sure you know what you are talking about next time."

Well i cannot speak to your "years of academia" but if nowhere in your YoA they taught you that falsely representing the premises for an argument would fail you in a logical presentation of an argument, you should perhaps seek a refund for those yars - or your parents if they paid for them.

For me in the classes i took on logic, one of the key aspects was whether or not the premises were sound when looking at the overall success or failure of an argument. One can apply sound logic to a flawed , incomplete or even falsified premise set and fail to reach a correct conclusion, after all.

But again thats neither here no there for the discussion at hand but needed to be responded to.

If you see pointing out your splicing together of disparate statements to frame them as if connected as insulting, that is telling.

Feanor · September 2017

This thread: STEVIL vs. the forum. Need more popcorn.

STEVIL · September 2017

Feanor wrote: »

This thread: STEVIL vs. the forum. Need more popcorn.

Well you might see the posters here as "the forum" but i see just s subset, a vocal minority, but i can see why they might want to think they are the hands and not the fingers.

but the loud few arguing against including the numerous many is not a new thing , here or elsewhere.

Arwaut · September 2017

A bit offtopic, but I couldn't get the information anywhere, does transmuting bind the item to your account?
Or will it still be tradeable, maybe someone testet this on PTS allready?

Thank you

STEVIL · September 2017

Arwaut wrote: »

A bit offtopic, but I couldn't get the information anywhere, does transmuting bind the item to your account?
Or will it still be tradeable, maybe someone testet this on PTS allready?

Thank you

currently transmute binds the item.
so no trading or selling transmuted items that i know of unless some work-around using bankers and group trading can be worked out..

theamazingx · September 2017

Related headlines you'll never see -

Ice Cream distributor to offer free waffle cone for repeated purchases; Salad enthusiasts outraged, feel "left out"

Guitar Center to offer free string replacement for repeated purchases; Drummers outraged, feel "left out"

Local car dealership to offer free oil changes after purchase; Cyclists outraged, feel "left out"

Feanor · September 2017

I'd go with the free string replacement in a heartbeat!

STEVIL · September 2017

theamazingx wrote: »

Related headlines you'll never see -

Ice Cream distributor to offer free waffle cone for repeated purchases; Salad enthusiasts outraged, feel "left out"

Guitar Center to offer free string replacement for repeated purchases; Drummers outraged, feel "left out"

Local car dealership to offer free oil changes after purchase; Cyclists outraged, feel "left out"

Exactly, since salads dont usually include ice cream, drums strings and cyclist need oil changes.

not sure what this has to do with traits and re-traits which do apply to questing rewards though.

Can you elaborate perhaps?

DPShiro · September 2017

A salad is as useful on a ice cream that a specific trait is in solo content.
For overland and quests you can literally do everything naked, with only spamming one skill. No skill or gear needed, certainly not a specific trait.

theamazingx · September 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

theamazingx wrote: »

Related headlines you'll never see -

Ice Cream distributor to offer free waffle cone for repeated purchases; Salad enthusiasts outraged, feel "left out"

Guitar Center to offer free string replacement for repeated purchases; Drummers outraged, feel "left out"

Local car dealership to offer free oil changes after purchase; Cyclists outraged, feel "left out"

Exactly, since salads dont usually include ice cream, drums strings and cyclist need oil changes.

not sure what this has to do with traits and re-traits which do apply to questing rewards though.

Can you elaborate perhaps?

Sure, you could eat a salad out of a waffle cone, tie on your cymbals with a guitar string, or grease your gears with motoroil, but it's about as helpful as having perfect traits to clear quests or normal dungeons. There's no one out there min-maxing their toon to turn 4 second fights into 3.8 second fights, that's just silly. And anyone that thinks transmutation is what will get them to the level of vet dungeons is kidding themselves. It's the same reason purple jewelry doesn't drop in normal.

I'm gonna back up and try to give a big picture here. Questing and overland content provide a great casual vehicle for players that are in it for the narrative, same with normal dungeons. Right now, it's indisputable that the game is set up quite well for that portion of the playerbase. A progression based player will go through that content, then move on the higher level group content like vet dungeons, pvp, etc. They apply what they learned, get stronger, then start looking at the nitty gritty details like traits. I understand that these two types of players don't like to acknowledge each other, but they're going to have to if they want the game to survive. Narrative focused players shouldn't ignore the importance of a sensible and functional progression system anymore than progression players should ignore the importance of the depth and detail of the game's lore and environments.

Storymaster · September 2017

@Juhasow

Absolutely agree with the title of this thread.

Many alchemists have historically died trying to transmute lead into gold, going back to transmutation's origins in Ancient Arabia. However, wise men learned from the sacrifice of their fallen brethren and paved the way for mathematics and modern medicine.

Izaki · September 2017

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

No matter the definition, it simply makes no sense to get riled up about the transmutation system if you don't need perfect traits in the first place. The differences between traits show mostly on weapons and not on armour and affect only the top end game when you try for score runs or HM achievements. Whether you do 15k or 17k in Fungal Grotto is inconsequential.

I guess thats the problem most "casual" players dont get.
Lets make a simple Example here:

Casual Player Stam DK: 5x TFS 5x HR 2x Mephala all Divine, Weapons Ifused and Sharp and he does ~15-20k DPS
Casual Player Stam DK: 5x TFS 5x HR 2x Mephala all in Various Traits, Weapons Ifused and Sharp and he'll deal probably 13-18k DPS

So your Perfect Traits give you ~2k DPS

If you compare this to a "elitist" player the difference would be more arround 5k since he's better in his Rotation, Boss mechanics ect.

Overall you can say the Transmutationsystem is more directed towards the Endagme community, where the Perfect Traits gets used more efficiently.

An Elitist can't consider himself an elitist unless he's pullling at least 20k more than the numbers you've described.

rhapsodious · September 2017

Izaki wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

No matter the definition, it simply makes no sense to get riled up about the transmutation system if you don't need perfect traits in the first place. The differences between traits show mostly on weapons and not on armour and affect only the top end game when you try for score runs or HM achievements. Whether you do 15k or 17k in Fungal Grotto is inconsequential.

I guess thats the problem most "casual" players dont get.
Lets make a simple Example here:

Casual Player Stam DK: 5x TFS 5x HR 2x Mephala all Divine, Weapons Ifused and Sharp and he does ~15-20k DPS
Casual Player Stam DK: 5x TFS 5x HR 2x Mephala all in Various Traits, Weapons Ifused and Sharp and he'll deal probably 13-18k DPS

So your Perfect Traits give you ~2k DPS

If you compare this to a "elitist" player the difference would be more arround 5k since he's better in his Rotation, Boss mechanics ect.

Overall you can say the Transmutationsystem is more directed towards the Endagme community, where the Perfect Traits gets used more efficiently.

An Elitist can't consider himself an elitist unless he's pullling at least 20k more than the numbers you've described.

He means the difference between traits is greater at higher levels of play, e.g. the difference in a 10% boost to your DPS when you're pulling 10k vs when you're pulling 30. So in other words, the higher level content you're playing, the more traits matter.

STEVIL · September 2017

theamazingx wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

theamazingx wrote: »

Related headlines you'll never see -

Ice Cream distributor to offer free waffle cone for repeated purchases; Salad enthusiasts outraged, feel "left out"

Guitar Center to offer free string replacement for repeated purchases; Drummers outraged, feel "left out"

Local car dealership to offer free oil changes after purchase; Cyclists outraged, feel "left out"

Exactly, since salads dont usually include ice cream, drums strings and cyclist need oil changes.

not sure what this has to do with traits and re-traits which do apply to questing rewards though.

Can you elaborate perhaps?

Sure, you could eat a salad out of a waffle cone, tie on your cymbals with a guitar string, or grease your gears with motoroil, but it's about as helpful as having perfect traits to clear quests or normal dungeons. There's no one out there min-maxing their toon to turn 4 second fights into 3.8 second fights, that's just silly. And anyone that thinks transmutation is what will get them to the level of vet dungeons is kidding themselves. It's the same reason purple jewelry doesn't drop in normal.

I'm gonna back up and try to give a big picture here. Questing and overland content provide a great casual vehicle for players that are in it for the narrative, same with normal dungeons. Right now, it's indisputable that the game is set up quite well for that portion of the playerbase. A progression based player will go through that content, then move on the higher level group content like vet dungeons, pvp, etc. They apply what they learned, get stronger, then start looking at the nitty gritty details like traits. I understand that these two types of players don't like to acknowledge each other, but they're going to have to if they want the game to survive. Narrative focused players shouldn't ignore the importance of a sensible and functional progression system anymore than progression players should ignore the importance of the depth and detail of the game's lore and environments.

Re your perception about how limited the types of players are in this game... all i can say is you really do not know everyone who plays this game and what they value - especially the ones you do not share the values with.

Old guys buy hot red sports cars and drive them at the speed limit.

guitar enthusiasts buy old or classic guitars or extensive sound systems even though they will never play well enough for it to matter. home chefs buy expensive knives and rare cookery even tho they will not see a bit of difference from it in their cooking.

The first guy i spoke to outside of this forum about this is a friend of mine. he seconds a guild, runs weekly vet dungeon runs for them sometimes group world boss runs etc and they have players of all levels and shapes. When he heard the questing content would not provide the crystals the first thing he said is "thats crazy. most people want to retrait stuff. hope they change it."

he does not agree with you about whether or not the main quest content should contain access to crystals or that no players running those want to re-trait their drops.

now that is anecdotal, but when we see folks speaking as decisively about nobody "minmaxing their tunes" for doing questing content, i know that is wrong.

but the key still becomes, if questing the main quests to completion did give crystals (to the tune of one per zone say and one for the main quest for say 22ish total) that would not hurt one of the players running the "more worthy" content one bit as far as i can tell, though it might harsh the mellow of the guy who thinks questers getting stuff takes away from him? No rule change or rule stasis is ever going to solve that perspective.

I know friends with powerful PCs they will never come close to using half the capability of but they are happy with having the good stuff.

Good thing they did not have to clear their purchases thru this "need or none" mindset - well at least when it comes to others.

Dymence · September 2017

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Vet trials should have a 100% droprate on them.

Why should Vet undaunted pledges have a 100% droprate but Trials only drop it once a week from the weekly quest? For a much harder activity? Seems backwards.

A simple search in the forums will yield the answer for you ...

Please enlighten me.

Juhasow wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Vet trials should have a 100% droprate on them.

Why should Vet undaunted pledges have a 100% droprate but Trials only drop it once a week from the weekly quest? For a much harder activity? Seems backwards.

@Dymence from dungeons You have 100% to get crystals from daily pledges and 1st random dungeon reward each day from trials it's weekly quest reward but we know there is option to get multiple crystals from different activities so it's possible You'll get multiple amount of crystals for weekly trial quest and 1 crystal for each dungeon related activity.

Same on bosses. It can be chance to get 1 crystal from veteran dungeon bosses and 2-3 crystals from veteran trial bosses. We'll see how things will go.

What I mean is that, even though you only get them guaranteed from pledges, pledges are still daily and there are 3 of them. The only trial related quest is a weekly.