theamazingx wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I don't say they deserve it or not. It's about deliberate choices.

Well you did say something about how th e easiest content should not get it, so sounds like a worthy vs unworthy position...

or

if it is just about making folks choose by cutting out some content... would you be equally fine if crystals only dropped from overland quests and daily delves and those who did not run that content had to make a "deliberate choice" to stop running trial and go run that in order to get the fuel for their re-trait desires?

i doubt it.

But you can prove me wrong.

What is it you actually feel like you're missing out on? Transmutation isn't content, it's an rng cap designed to only be viable for use with gear like vma weapons and monster sets. It's not about who deserves it, it's about who can actually use it. They clearly have no intention to be reducing grinds like divines bsw or leviathan or something. Having them drop in normals or quests would throw a wrench in their efforts to balance the drop rate to that effect, and for what? So that questers and normal dungeon runners can get a minor increase to an aspect of the game they claim not to care about?

Transmutation is a sub-system that allows you to change the traits on gear you already have and keep its quality and all other aspects.

That is what is being left out for all those running many more hours on the quests.

It does not matter whether that gear is crafted, dropped trash, dropped sets, dropped unique named items or dungeon sets or trial sets or arena sets.

IMO that sub-system should not limit its core fuel expendable to only a small portion of the content which drops only a few of the items it applies to.

Would you be fine if it only dropped crystals from PVP?
or only dropped from overland quests and daily delves?

Would you think it wise if most of the sources of BoP gear did not drop crystals and you had to go elsewhere to get it?

Well, none of those unique quest rewards or BOE drops are in this mix of places to get fuel.

So why the confusion that there is not all happy happy joy joy at leaving them out?

STEVIL wrote: »

theamazingx wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I don't say they deserve it or not. It's about deliberate choices.

Well you did say something about how th e easiest content should not get it, so sounds like a worthy vs unworthy position...

or

if it is just about making folks choose by cutting out some content... would you be equally fine if crystals only dropped from overland quests and daily delves and those who did not run that content had to make a "deliberate choice" to stop running trial and go run that in order to get the fuel for their re-trait desires?

i doubt it.

But you can prove me wrong.

What is it you actually feel like you're missing out on? Transmutation isn't content, it's an rng cap designed to only be viable for use with gear like vma weapons and monster sets. It's not about who deserves it, it's about who can actually use it. They clearly have no intention to be reducing grinds like divines bsw or leviathan or something. Having them drop in normals or quests would throw a wrench in their efforts to balance the drop rate to that effect, and for what? So that questers and normal dungeon runners can get a minor increase to an aspect of the game they claim not to care about?

Transmutation is a sub-system that allows you to change the traits on gear you already have and keep its quality and all other aspects.

That is what is being left out for all those running many more hours on the quests.

It does not matter whether that gear is crafted, dropped trash, dropped sets, dropped unique named items or dungeon sets or trial sets or arena sets.

IMO that sub-system should not limit its core fuel expendable to only a small portion of the content which drops only a few of the items it applies to.

Would you be fine if it only dropped crystals from PVP?
or only dropped from overland quests and daily delves?

Would you think it wise if most of the sources of BoP gear did not drop crystals and you had to go elsewhere to get it?

Well, none of those unique quest rewards or BOE drops are in this mix of places to get fuel.

So why the confusion that there is not all happy happy joy joy at leaving them out?

Crystals drop from pvp and vet content because they do not contribute in any meaningful way to playstyles that do not include pvp or vet content. That's it. It's that simple. There is literally no reason that someone performing at the level of overland quests and normal dungeons should be looking at traits as the avenue for improving their characters performance, and no reason that those who don't care about their character's performance to care about crystals.

Mojmir wrote: »

agree,and to add, you get one nirnhoned piece of gear at the end of craglorn questline

theamazingx wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Your proposal wouldn't alleviate that. If you don't gain 40 crystals by questing, why bothering with it? And if you do gain a meaningful amount, why bothering with harder content? I can rush the quest content with no problem and finish a zone main quest line in less than an hour probably. Should I be rewarded with a meaningful amount of crystals for that?

Ok so if you run that quest line in an hour of play with no real chance of failure and deserve no crystals for it... how many crystals should i get for me and four buddies running a vet pledge with mostly equal assured chance of success in half that time?

If you dont gain 40 crystals by dungeoning... blah blah.

My suggestion is the reward for spending 30m on a vet pledge (daily) and the one-time rewards for finishing a full zone main questline - which you claim to be probably an hour or less - be the same per individual.

So, please, line up all your "it will break this or that" counters for getting the same reward in twice the time as your counters to adding questing one-time rewards.

you would think i am suggesting the crystals fall like rain.

Somehow taking twice the time to get crystals thru questing will stop folks from running pledges.

Really?

last time i checked, they run pledges now with no crystals.

and again with the "harder content".

They reward four man vet dungeon runs with crystal per person.

nobody here is arguing that is anything like difficult threshold... are you?

It's partially because it's not relevant. Questing shouldn't grant a min-maxing material any more than trials should grant AP. I could go run vma and clear in under an hour, that doesn't mean a quest line of the same length should give me powerful weapons. A difficulty threshold is part of it, because the bar is so incredibly low in this game, and the game has suffered in the long run because of it.

last quest in craglorn rewards nirnhoned item for research,this as at one time the only way to get it for research

"ZoS did something silly in the past" is not an argument for anything.

Mojmir wrote: »

theamazingx wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

agree,and to add, you get one nirnhoned piece of gear at the end of craglorn questline

theamazingx wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Your proposal wouldn't alleviate that. If you don't gain 40 crystals by questing, why bothering with it? And if you do gain a meaningful amount, why bothering with harder content? I can rush the quest content with no problem and finish a zone main quest line in less than an hour probably. Should I be rewarded with a meaningful amount of crystals for that?

Ok so if you run that quest line in an hour of play with no real chance of failure and deserve no crystals for it... how many crystals should i get for me and four buddies running a vet pledge with mostly equal assured chance of success in half that time?

If you dont gain 40 crystals by dungeoning... blah blah.

My suggestion is the reward for spending 30m on a vet pledge (daily) and the one-time rewards for finishing a full zone main questline - which you claim to be probably an hour or less - be the same per individual.

So, please, line up all your "it will break this or that" counters for getting the same reward in twice the time as your counters to adding questing one-time rewards.

you would think i am suggesting the crystals fall like rain.

Somehow taking twice the time to get crystals thru questing will stop folks from running pledges.

Really?

last time i checked, they run pledges now with no crystals.

and again with the "harder content".

They reward four man vet dungeon runs with crystal per person.

nobody here is arguing that is anything like difficult threshold... are you?

It's partially because it's not relevant. Questing shouldn't grant a min-maxing material any more than trials should grant AP. I could go run vma and clear in under an hour, that doesn't mean a quest line of the same length should give me powerful weapons. A difficulty threshold is part of it, because the bar is so incredibly low in this game, and the game has suffered in the long run because of it.

last quest in craglorn rewards nirnhoned item for research,this as at one time the only way to get it for research

"ZoS did something silly in the past" is not an argument for anything.

isnt that what the argument in this discussion is about?

If the question is "should zos make the same mistake twice, but this time at a larger scale", I'm gonna go with a hard 'no'.

@theamazingx says

It's partially because it's not relevant. Questing shouldn't grant a min-maxing material any more than trials should grant AP. I could go run vma and clear in under an hour, that doesn't mean a quest line of the same length should give me powerful weapons. A difficulty threshold is part of it, because the bar is so incredibly low in this game, and the game has suffered in the long run because of it.

and

Crystals drop from pvp and vet content because they do not contribute in any meaningful way to playstyles that do not include pvp or vet content. That's it. It's that simple. There is literally no reason that someone performing at the level of overland quests and normal dungeons should be looking at traits as the avenue for improving their characters performance, and no reason that those who don't care about their character's performance to care about crystals.

and

I honestly can't understand why players focusing on content where traits don't matter in the slightest are demanding the ability the grind out better traits slightly faster.

See, the difference between you and me is i don't feel i am so entitled as to put myself ina place where if i do not undertsnad or share other people's preferences or likes that i am of a mind to say "dont let them have it."

Just because i do not understand why some folks like PVP, i don't feel any inclusion of PVP has to be justified to me.

if we take you at your word, these crystals will have no impact on the performance of those running quests content... and that means they wont hurt you and the other vet-content runners at all. if every quester gets a sharpened overland staff, instead of a precise or a powered or infused or charged whatever is the best for their role/play that wont mean they can jump up and steal your leaderboard scores or smite you in PVP.

On the other hand, even though you may not be able to understand why, for some being able to re-trait the overland stuff will make things more enjoyable. I for one might well be wearing that unique named harpy feather set shirt on one of my characters if it could be changed from ORNATE. there are other numerous examples but that one i was actually anxious to go complete the quest once it became a set piece but just not gonna wear an ornate.

You make noises about all the suffering in the game because of the game being easier than you like, but guess what, limiting trait crystals, that does not make anything harder than it is now, right? You are not raising the difficulty. Not one piece of content is suddenly tougher or not depending on whether or not killing molag bal earns you one crystal.

So it really comes off as more like "spite" or "screw them casual" than an actual concern over whether or not the game is hard enough.

and all in all, it doesn't matter whether or not you share their goals, these questers, when it comes to whether or not they can get similar gains added to their preferred content as you hope to get to yours.

you may see a four man vet dungeon as some high holy threshold of worthy... but not all that many seem to be willing to stand on that hill.

this game is fed and maintained by players playing the game, whether or not that is players spending 30m in a four man vet pledge or a player spending hours on a full zone quest. Obviously we will not agree on whether or not the latter deserve a place in this new sub-system that can help them. But i think i can say with reasonable chance of accuracy - if all the current "running main quests content" and future "running the main quests content" folks walked away, you and your vet pledges and trials... y'all might well not have a thriving game for long.

So, yeah, this whole "only for the worthy" bit... not a good long term strategy,

Mojmir wrote: »

theamazingx wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

theamazingx wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

theamazingx wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

agree,and to add, you get one nirnhoned piece of gear at the end of craglorn questline

theamazingx wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Your proposal wouldn't alleviate that. If you don't gain 40 crystals by questing, why bothering with it? And if you do gain a meaningful amount, why bothering with harder content? I can rush the quest content with no problem and finish a zone main quest line in less than an hour probably. Should I be rewarded with a meaningful amount of crystals for that?

Ok so if you run that quest line in an hour of play with no real chance of failure and deserve no crystals for it... how many crystals should i get for me and four buddies running a vet pledge with mostly equal assured chance of success in half that time?

If you dont gain 40 crystals by dungeoning... blah blah.

My suggestion is the reward for spending 30m on a vet pledge (daily) and the one-time rewards for finishing a full zone main questline - which you claim to be probably an hour or less - be the same per individual.

So, please, line up all your "it will break this or that" counters for getting the same reward in twice the time as your counters to adding questing one-time rewards.

you would think i am suggesting the crystals fall like rain.

Somehow taking twice the time to get crystals thru questing will stop folks from running pledges.

Really?

last time i checked, they run pledges now with no crystals.

and again with the "harder content".

They reward four man vet dungeon runs with crystal per person.

nobody here is arguing that is anything like difficult threshold... are you?

It's partially because it's not relevant. Questing shouldn't grant a min-maxing material any more than trials should grant AP. I could go run vma and clear in under an hour, that doesn't mean a quest line of the same length should give me powerful weapons. A difficulty threshold is part of it, because the bar is so incredibly low in this game, and the game has suffered in the long run because of it.

last quest in craglorn rewards nirnhoned item for research,this as at one time the only way to get it for research

"ZoS did something silly in the past" is not an argument for anything.

isnt that what the argument in this discussion is about?

If the question is "should zos make the same mistake twice, but this time at a larger scale", I'm gonna go with a hard 'no'.

exactly, so fix the mistake like before and open it up to be attained by all playstyles. they made it easily attainable with their favorite RNG through farming mats.

You keep avoiding the point, though. They're not relevant to all playstyles. Traits are just background noise to anyone that doesn't actively seek to improve their performance. And if players below a vet dungeon level want to get better, they should be focusing on much bigger aspects like overall build and rotation, not get distracted by another grind. Tell me, are you actually a quester that likes having perfect traits, or are you arguing for the sake of theoretical players that might fall in that category?

I'm arguing for what's fair for everyone, Is that so wrong?

Given nobody can point to a single victim if quester content granted a similar number of crystals... i don't see it that wrong.5

@STEVIL
Players will almost always take the path of least resistance. If there's a significantly easier way to get crystals doing one thing over another, more players will be drawn to doing that for efficiency's sake. So either you award crystals for non-repeatable quest content, which will be a finite number and not even worth the dev team's time to add, or you tie them to repeatable quests like world boss dailies, which would then become the dominant way people would farm the crystals. So your suggestion is DOA. I think you know there is no chance ZOS would actually implement this suggestion but are just arguing out of a sense of stubborn entitlement. Sorry if that's hard to hear, but you've been thoughtfully responded to multiple times and just seem unwilling to listen.

The mechanism available to players seeking the perfect overland piece is: gold (i.e. buy the item from a guild store)

The mechanism available to players seeking the perfect crafted piece is: crafting it yourself or having someone craft it for you

The mechanism available to players seeking the perfect dungeon piece is: transmutation crystals

So the only people who REQUIRE TCs to beat RNG are dungeon runners.

It's really not complicated.

dpencil1 wrote: »

@STEVIL
Players will almost always take the path of least resistance. If there's a significantly easier way to get crystals doing one thing over another, more players will be drawn to doing that for efficiency's sake. So either you award crystals for non-repeatable quest content, which will be a finite number and not even worth the dev team's time to add, or you tie them to repeatable quests like world boss dailies, which would then become the dominant way people would farm the crystals. So your suggestion is DOA. I think you know there is no chance ZOS would actually implement this suggestion but are just arguing out of a sense of stubborn entitlement. Sorry if that's hard to hear, but you've been thoughtfully responded to multiple times and just seem unwilling to listen.

The mechanism available to players seeking the perfect overland piece is: gold (i.e. buy the item from a guild store)

The mechanism available to players seeking the perfect crafted piece is: crafting it yourself or having someone craft it for you

The mechanism available to players seeking the perfect dungeon piece is: transmutation crystals

So the only people who REQUIRE TCs to beat RNG are dungeon runners.

It's really not complicated.

Your imaginings on what i am thinking are amusing but, to me, my way of thinking, the inclusion of normal content in the list of ways to gather crystals says your assessment of the ZOS will or wont is flawed.

Also, your seemingly simple and all-inclusive list is flawed, likely deliberately so that it looks conclusive.

crafted can also be sold and you will find many such items in most of the better traders. that gives crafted pieces both gold and crafting as vehicles.

Similarly, the crystals all transmutation of all three... not just the dungeon sets. So, your dungeon runner can use them to transmute the mothers sorrw if it gets into his desired or the others too. The transmute also keeps the quality making it better than buying new or re-crafting.

So it is not some simple "each type has a way" being discussed but as stated much more of a which players have which ways to change their stuff without needing to re-gold.

i know some would like to pretend its about items, one kind this, the other kind that, because if it can be masked as "differences in items" the reality that it is really about excluding players who like certain content can be swept aside, sleight of hand, pay no attention to the prejudice behind the curtain.

STEVIL wrote: »

dpencil1 wrote: »

@STEVIL
Players will almost always take the path of least resistance. If there's a significantly easier way to get crystals doing one thing over another, more players will be drawn to doing that for efficiency's sake. So either you award crystals for non-repeatable quest content, which will be a finite number and not even worth the dev team's time to add, or you tie them to repeatable quests like world boss dailies, which would then become the dominant way people would farm the crystals. So your suggestion is DOA. I think you know there is no chance ZOS would actually implement this suggestion but are just arguing out of a sense of stubborn entitlement. Sorry if that's hard to hear, but you've been thoughtfully responded to multiple times and just seem unwilling to listen.

The mechanism available to players seeking the perfect overland piece is: gold (i.e. buy the item from a guild store)

The mechanism available to players seeking the perfect crafted piece is: crafting it yourself or having someone craft it for you

The mechanism available to players seeking the perfect dungeon piece is: transmutation crystals

So the only people who REQUIRE TCs to beat RNG are dungeon runners.

It's really not complicated.

Your imaginings on what i am thinking are amusing but, to me, my way of thinking, the inclusion of normal content in the list of ways to gather crystals says your assessment of the ZOS will or wont is flawed.

Also, your seemingly simple and all-inclusive list is flawed, likely deliberately so that it looks conclusive.

crafted can also be sold and you will find many such items in most of the better traders. that gives crafted pieces both gold and crafting as vehicles.

Similarly, the crystals all transmutation of all three... not just the dungeon sets. So, your dungeon runner can use them to transmute the mothers sorrw if it gets into his desired or the others too. The transmute also keeps the quality making it better than buying new or re-crafting.

So it is not some simple "each type has a way" being discussed but as stated much more of a which players have which ways to change their stuff without needing to re-gold.

i know some would like to pretend its about items, one kind this, the other kind that, because if it can be masked as "differences in items" the reality that it is really about excluding players who like certain content can be swept aside, sleight of hand, pay no attention to the prejudice behind the curtain.

Your argument is solely based on inclusion. You want everyone included in some way in order to get a crystal. Guess what, only the people who give a *** about these crystals will get them by doing what is out there.

When I played soccer in highschool I was good so I never came off the field. There was a kid who wasn't good, barely worked hard in practice, and didn't get much time on the field during games. The kid knew he sucked and didn't try to get better because he just wanted to be on the team with his friends and hangout. His Dad would constantly complain about the coach not playing his son. You remind me of that dad.

PocketAces13xb wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

dpencil1 wrote: »

@STEVIL
Players will almost always take the path of least resistance. If there's a significantly easier way to get crystals doing one thing over another, more players will be drawn to doing that for efficiency's sake. So either you award crystals for non-repeatable quest content, which will be a finite number and not even worth the dev team's time to add, or you tie them to repeatable quests like world boss dailies, which would then become the dominant way people would farm the crystals. So your suggestion is DOA. I think you know there is no chance ZOS would actually implement this suggestion but are just arguing out of a sense of stubborn entitlement. Sorry if that's hard to hear, but you've been thoughtfully responded to multiple times and just seem unwilling to listen.

The mechanism available to players seeking the perfect overland piece is: gold (i.e. buy the item from a guild store)

The mechanism available to players seeking the perfect crafted piece is: crafting it yourself or having someone craft it for you

The mechanism available to players seeking the perfect dungeon piece is: transmutation crystals

So the only people who REQUIRE TCs to beat RNG are dungeon runners.

It's really not complicated.

Your imaginings on what i am thinking are amusing but, to me, my way of thinking, the inclusion of normal content in the list of ways to gather crystals says your assessment of the ZOS will or wont is flawed.

Also, your seemingly simple and all-inclusive list is flawed, likely deliberately so that it looks conclusive.

crafted can also be sold and you will find many such items in most of the better traders. that gives crafted pieces both gold and crafting as vehicles.

Similarly, the crystals all transmutation of all three... not just the dungeon sets. So, your dungeon runner can use them to transmute the mothers sorrw if it gets into his desired or the others too. The transmute also keeps the quality making it better than buying new or re-crafting.

So it is not some simple "each type has a way" being discussed but as stated much more of a which players have which ways to change their stuff without needing to re-gold.

i know some would like to pretend its about items, one kind this, the other kind that, because if it can be masked as "differences in items" the reality that it is really about excluding players who like certain content can be swept aside, sleight of hand, pay no attention to the prejudice behind the curtain.

Your argument is solely based on inclusion. You want everyone included in some way in order to get a crystal. Guess what, only the people who give a *** about these crystals will get them by doing what is out there.

When I played soccer in highschool I was good so I never came off the field. There was a kid who wasn't good, barely worked hard in practice, and didn't get much time on the field during games. The kid knew he sucked and didn't try to get better because he just wanted to be on the team with his friends and hangout. His Dad would constantly complain about the coach not playing his son. You remind me of that dad.

Regardless of your soccer dad issues, what you say is wrong. It is just wrong.

If I am soloing a pledge dungeon and I kill the final boss and a crystal drops, there won't be a "do you give a crap" prompt. There will be a crystal or not if I run the content regardless of crystal desire.

And yes, I do believe that the largest block of pcs content should be included in the new subsystem in no small part because it provides rewardsincluding unique rewards that can be served by inclusion.

Building a new subsystem and cutting out the bulk of your playtime content that can benefit from the subsystem is unfathomable.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

@STEVIL, your posts are well-thought even if sometimes lengthy.

That said, I still can't buy in on quests rewarding crystals.

I would be willing to compromise on crystal(s) being rewarded for completing a full zone quest line ... but that would still be a one-time event.

My proposal was in fact one crystal for each full zone quest line including the precursors -remember the old Caldwell 5-7 quests per zone check off?)

Also that ending molog balh finale which requires its precursors.

May have been chance for mages and fighters finale.

All told between 20 to 30 crystals for someone finishing every zone main quest on a character.