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We need incentives to bring regular players back into Cyrodiil, and to attract non-PvPers to try PvP
-
Lieblingsjunge✭✭✭✭✭
✭Can they just listen to OP already.
Ignorance is the greatest weapon of tyranny.
PC - EU.
Lieblingsjunge(AD) - Racechanged Argonian :< | AR 50 - No double AP or Bleakers involved |
Sits-On-Cacti(DC) - Problem?
Fail-With-Tail(AD) - Healing Springs-spammer :<
Tiny Liebs(EP) - Very Tiny. Also heals.
Lieblingsmädchen(DC) - Magplar is love.
The Dominàtrix(AD) - Chains, whip, whip, whip.
Fluffy Furball Kitten(DC) - Kittycat, meow.
Your Face(EP) - People make bad jokes about my name =(
Liebs-With-Trees(AD) - Male argo with a big tail :>
Officer/Sandwitch of Zerg Squad
My title: The Maneater, Destroyer of Maneuvers, Bane of Potatoes, she who devours them, The Black Hole, the humorless, first of her name.0 -
manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Also, more than you would thing, there are plenty of us that fight for the pride of winning the campaign by outmaneuvering the other alliances on a large scale over 30 days. We're easy to miss in zone chat if a player is focused on themselves and not the alliance.
Yeah, I should know.NightbladeMechanics wrote: »At this point, it has to be new.
Just adding resources won't change much because they are the same mechanic, 2 years old. Needed to be in the game 2 yrs ago.
Content is king.
It's a sound and enlightened attitude -- merging PvE and PvP, making Cyrodiil the high end zone where the two fight together over something they both want.
But yea, I need something new too. Not necessarily a new map, though. A new dynamic and new gameplay patterns in Cyro would be enough to keep me engaged.
What could change in Cyro to make you want to come back and play hardcore like you did in the old days? Anything? I don't see ZOS developing any brand new map the same size as Cyro, nor do I see just a new map creating long term enthusiasm for PvP.
@Satiar what about you? What could ZOS do that would bring back our enthusiasm for Cyro, if anything?
Not much to do there. Vehemence is retiring from ESO and so am I. Only real way we'd come back is if the game was a thriving pvp haven, without performance issues that plagued it for years. As is it just doesn't work right and pretty much all the old competitors are gone with naught to replace them.
Steve,
You know my feelings towards VE very well already.
I will say I am going to miss the challenge of dealing with them.
Competitors thrive when there's challenge and sport on the other side.
Now DC's just going to be a chore to deal with, not a challenge.
Good luck to you and Kirsi and Kirin.
I still think us rerolling caused more bad feelings than if we'd just been a native DC guild, but overall I doubt most ppl even know we were EP these days. ''Tis all ancient history.
My only real sadness is that DC never developed more guilds during our tenure. We really hoped that our presence would inspire more guilds to climb the ranks as it were, but it's mostly in the same spot we found it. That's prob more on ZoS than anything else tho.
Are we playing on the same mega server? DC by far has had the largest amount of organized guilds for a long time, and that is still true today.- Mojican6 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Also, more than you would thing, there are plenty of us that fight for the pride of winning the campaign by outmaneuvering the other alliances on a large scale over 30 days. We're easy to miss in zone chat if a player is focused on themselves and not the alliance.
Yeah, I should know.NightbladeMechanics wrote: »At this point, it has to be new.
Just adding resources won't change much because they are the same mechanic, 2 years old. Needed to be in the game 2 yrs ago.
Content is king.
It's a sound and enlightened attitude -- merging PvE and PvP, making Cyrodiil the high end zone where the two fight together over something they both want.
But yea, I need something new too. Not necessarily a new map, though. A new dynamic and new gameplay patterns in Cyro would be enough to keep me engaged.
What could change in Cyro to make you want to come back and play hardcore like you did in the old days? Anything? I don't see ZOS developing any brand new map the same size as Cyro, nor do I see just a new map creating long term enthusiasm for PvP.
@Satiar what about you? What could ZOS do that would bring back our enthusiasm for Cyro, if anything?
Not much to do there. Vehemence is retiring from ESO and so am I. Only real way we'd come back is if the game was a thriving pvp haven, without performance issues that plagued it for years. As is it just doesn't work right and pretty much all the old competitors are gone with naught to replace them.
Steve,
You know my feelings towards VE very well already.
I will say I am going to miss the challenge of dealing with them.
Competitors thrive when there's challenge and sport on the other side.
Now DC's just going to be a chore to deal with, not a challenge.
Good luck to you and Kirsi and Kirin.
I still think us rerolling caused more bad feelings than if we'd just been a native DC guild, but overall I doubt most ppl even know we were EP these days. ''Tis all ancient history.
My only real sadness is that DC never developed more guilds during our tenure. We really hoped that our presence would inspire more guilds to climb the ranks as it were, but it's mostly in the same spot we found it. That's prob more on ZoS than anything else tho.
Are we playing on the same mega server? DC by far has had the largest amount of organized guilds for a long time, and that is still true today.
Do me a favour and list the organized guilds present when we rolled to DC and the organized guilds active now.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost2 -
Agrippa_Invisus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I agree with some of the other posts. Pvp and pve both have potential to be toxic. I think the biggest thing is who you play with. Teabaging doesn't bother me as much as people just telling someone they can't do something without offering help or even advice. I've left a lot more trial guilds then I have pvp guilds simply because most trial guilds become ________(fill in the blank with any word probably not allowed on the forums) after a while even ones started as "teaching" guilds. I think it more depends on what you enjoy your naturally going to be more numb to the bad parts of that then the bad parts of something you don't enjoy as much. And personally I see the worst part of pvp is how many people are scared to die or be "exposed" like you aren't good if you get killed. I die a lot and kill a lot doesn't affect me, either way I'm going to wake up the next morning and go back to work and come home and do it again. My advice is do what you enjoy doing, if you want more people in pvp then talk to people, help them get into pvp because I have only stayed playing this game because of the people I play with
No one should fear dying in PVP.
I mean, OH NOEZ MAH PIXELZ.
The only penalty is forced respawn, and sometimes some travel depending on whether a nearby spawn point is available.
There's a reason the Outpost lanes are the most busy areas of the map. People can just mindlessly respawn and run towards the fight over and over.Agrippa Invisus / Indominus / Inprimis / Inviolatus
DragonKnight / Templar / Warden / Sorcerer - Vagabond
Once a General, now a Citizen
Former Emperor of Bloodthorn and Vivec
For Sweetrolls! FOR FIMIAN!2 -
manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Also, more than you would thing, there are plenty of us that fight for the pride of winning the campaign by outmaneuvering the other alliances on a large scale over 30 days. We're easy to miss in zone chat if a player is focused on themselves and not the alliance.
Yeah, I should know.NightbladeMechanics wrote: »At this point, it has to be new.
Just adding resources won't change much because they are the same mechanic, 2 years old. Needed to be in the game 2 yrs ago.
Content is king.
It's a sound and enlightened attitude -- merging PvE and PvP, making Cyrodiil the high end zone where the two fight together over something they both want.
But yea, I need something new too. Not necessarily a new map, though. A new dynamic and new gameplay patterns in Cyro would be enough to keep me engaged.
What could change in Cyro to make you want to come back and play hardcore like you did in the old days? Anything? I don't see ZOS developing any brand new map the same size as Cyro, nor do I see just a new map creating long term enthusiasm for PvP.
@Satiar what about you? What could ZOS do that would bring back our enthusiasm for Cyro, if anything?
Not much to do there. Vehemence is retiring from ESO and so am I. Only real way we'd come back is if the game was a thriving pvp haven, without performance issues that plagued it for years. As is it just doesn't work right and pretty much all the old competitors are gone with naught to replace them.
Steve,
You know my feelings towards VE very well already.
I will say I am going to miss the challenge of dealing with them.
Competitors thrive when there's challenge and sport on the other side.
Now DC's just going to be a chore to deal with, not a challenge.
Good luck to you and Kirsi and Kirin.
I still think us rerolling caused more bad feelings than if we'd just been a native DC guild, but overall I doubt most ppl even know we were EP these days. ''Tis all ancient history.
My only real sadness is that DC never developed more guilds during our tenure. We really hoped that our presence would inspire more guilds to climb the ranks as it were, but it's mostly in the same spot we found it. That's prob more on ZoS than anything else tho.
Are we playing on the same mega server? DC by far has had the largest amount of organized guilds for a long time, and that is still true today.
Do me a favour and list the organized guilds present when we rolled to DC and the organized guilds active now.
Isn't that your buddy crispy's job not mine? I don't keep a list of all the dc guilds (or really care), but I can tell you I have already seen 4 different groups of DC with 12 or more people this morning.- Mojican3 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Also, more than you would thing, there are plenty of us that fight for the pride of winning the campaign by outmaneuvering the other alliances on a large scale over 30 days. We're easy to miss in zone chat if a player is focused on themselves and not the alliance.
Yeah, I should know.NightbladeMechanics wrote: »At this point, it has to be new.
Just adding resources won't change much because they are the same mechanic, 2 years old. Needed to be in the game 2 yrs ago.
Content is king.
It's a sound and enlightened attitude -- merging PvE and PvP, making Cyrodiil the high end zone where the two fight together over something they both want.
But yea, I need something new too. Not necessarily a new map, though. A new dynamic and new gameplay patterns in Cyro would be enough to keep me engaged.
What could change in Cyro to make you want to come back and play hardcore like you did in the old days? Anything? I don't see ZOS developing any brand new map the same size as Cyro, nor do I see just a new map creating long term enthusiasm for PvP.
@Satiar what about you? What could ZOS do that would bring back our enthusiasm for Cyro, if anything?
Not much to do there. Vehemence is retiring from ESO and so am I. Only real way we'd come back is if the game was a thriving pvp haven, without performance issues that plagued it for years. As is it just doesn't work right and pretty much all the old competitors are gone with naught to replace them.
Steve,
You know my feelings towards VE very well already.
I will say I am going to miss the challenge of dealing with them.
Competitors thrive when there's challenge and sport on the other side.
Now DC's just going to be a chore to deal with, not a challenge.
Good luck to you and Kirsi and Kirin.
I still think us rerolling caused more bad feelings than if we'd just been a native DC guild, but overall I doubt most ppl even know we were EP these days. ''Tis all ancient history.
My only real sadness is that DC never developed more guilds during our tenure. We really hoped that our presence would inspire more guilds to climb the ranks as it were, but it's mostly in the same spot we found it. That's prob more on ZoS than anything else tho.
Are we playing on the same mega server? DC by far has had the largest amount of organized guilds for a long time, and that is still true today.
Do me a favour and list the organized guilds present when we rolled to DC and the organized guilds active now.
Isn't that your buddy crispy's job not mine? I don't keep a list of all the dc guilds (or really care), but I can tell you I have already seen 4 different groups of DC with 12 or more people this morning.
If you wanna throw out facts you should be able to back it up.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost2 -
manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Also, more than you would thing, there are plenty of us that fight for the pride of winning the campaign by outmaneuvering the other alliances on a large scale over 30 days. We're easy to miss in zone chat if a player is focused on themselves and not the alliance.
Yeah, I should know.NightbladeMechanics wrote: »At this point, it has to be new.
Just adding resources won't change much because they are the same mechanic, 2 years old. Needed to be in the game 2 yrs ago.
Content is king.
It's a sound and enlightened attitude -- merging PvE and PvP, making Cyrodiil the high end zone where the two fight together over something they both want.
But yea, I need something new too. Not necessarily a new map, though. A new dynamic and new gameplay patterns in Cyro would be enough to keep me engaged.
What could change in Cyro to make you want to come back and play hardcore like you did in the old days? Anything? I don't see ZOS developing any brand new map the same size as Cyro, nor do I see just a new map creating long term enthusiasm for PvP.
@Satiar what about you? What could ZOS do that would bring back our enthusiasm for Cyro, if anything?
Not much to do there. Vehemence is retiring from ESO and so am I. Only real way we'd come back is if the game was a thriving pvp haven, without performance issues that plagued it for years. As is it just doesn't work right and pretty much all the old competitors are gone with naught to replace them.
Steve,
You know my feelings towards VE very well already.
I will say I am going to miss the challenge of dealing with them.
Competitors thrive when there's challenge and sport on the other side.
Now DC's just going to be a chore to deal with, not a challenge.
Good luck to you and Kirsi and Kirin.
I still think us rerolling caused more bad feelings than if we'd just been a native DC guild, but overall I doubt most ppl even know we were EP these days. ''Tis all ancient history.
My only real sadness is that DC never developed more guilds during our tenure. We really hoped that our presence would inspire more guilds to climb the ranks as it were, but it's mostly in the same spot we found it. That's prob more on ZoS than anything else tho.
Are we playing on the same mega server? DC by far has had the largest amount of organized guilds for a long time, and that is still true today.
Do me a favour and list the organized guilds present when we rolled to DC and the organized guilds active now.
Isn't that your buddy crispy's job not mine? I don't keep a list of all the dc guilds (or really care), but I can tell you I have already seen 4 different groups of DC with 12 or more people this morning.
If you wanna throw out facts you should be able to back it up.
What I said is fairly common knowledge to anyone who keep their eyes open while pvping. Thought you had common knowledge. My bad forgive me.- Mojican1 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Also, more than you would thing, there are plenty of us that fight for the pride of winning the campaign by outmaneuvering the other alliances on a large scale over 30 days. We're easy to miss in zone chat if a player is focused on themselves and not the alliance.
Yeah, I should know.NightbladeMechanics wrote: »At this point, it has to be new.
Just adding resources won't change much because they are the same mechanic, 2 years old. Needed to be in the game 2 yrs ago.
Content is king.
It's a sound and enlightened attitude -- merging PvE and PvP, making Cyrodiil the high end zone where the two fight together over something they both want.
But yea, I need something new too. Not necessarily a new map, though. A new dynamic and new gameplay patterns in Cyro would be enough to keep me engaged.
What could change in Cyro to make you want to come back and play hardcore like you did in the old days? Anything? I don't see ZOS developing any brand new map the same size as Cyro, nor do I see just a new map creating long term enthusiasm for PvP.
@Satiar what about you? What could ZOS do that would bring back our enthusiasm for Cyro, if anything?
Not much to do there. Vehemence is retiring from ESO and so am I. Only real way we'd come back is if the game was a thriving pvp haven, without performance issues that plagued it for years. As is it just doesn't work right and pretty much all the old competitors are gone with naught to replace them.
Steve,
You know my feelings towards VE very well already.
I will say I am going to miss the challenge of dealing with them.
Competitors thrive when there's challenge and sport on the other side.
Now DC's just going to be a chore to deal with, not a challenge.
Good luck to you and Kirsi and Kirin.
I still think us rerolling caused more bad feelings than if we'd just been a native DC guild, but overall I doubt most ppl even know we were EP these days. ''Tis all ancient history.
My only real sadness is that DC never developed more guilds during our tenure. We really hoped that our presence would inspire more guilds to climb the ranks as it were, but it's mostly in the same spot we found it. That's prob more on ZoS than anything else tho.
Are we playing on the same mega server? DC by far has had the largest amount of organized guilds for a long time, and that is still true today.
Do me a favour and list the organized guilds present when we rolled to DC and the organized guilds active now.
Isn't that your buddy crispy's job not mine? I don't keep a list of all the dc guilds (or really care), but I can tell you I have already seen 4 different groups of DC with 12 or more people this morning.
If you wanna throw out facts you should be able to back it up.
What I said is fairly common knowledge to anyone who keep their eyes open while pvping. Thought you had common knowledge. My bad forgive me.
Common knowledge appears to be wrong in this instance. There was a period of time when DC had the upper hand in organized guilds but those days are long past.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost0 -
FloppyTouch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I'm a pvp player mainly and I stop after the event from going to hard, many days with out sleep. I agree with ur points. When I came back pvp felt dead and I stopped logging in as much.
What really killed it for me is friends are leaving for other games mainly D2 and lack of reasons to play.
What will bring me back to pvp more idk rewards are not it I play to kill players not AP not rewards of the worthy. Maybe just make is fun again take away lag and fix the issues that pushed people away. Plenty of forum post about the issues of pvp fix this and it can be fun again. Also nerf sorc XDDD1 -
GloryClass RepresentativeAt this point I'd take anything that would lead to a more consistent, healthy playerbase for PvP.
I like Kena's suggestions, and many of the suggestions that have been made in the thread.mDK will rise again.
Rebuild Necromancer pet AI.
@Glorious since I have too many characters to list
Ádamant
Strongly against Faction Lock2 -
Mazbt✭✭✭✭PVP looks pretty active to me. It needs quality of life improvements but if you pay attention to zone chat and the amount of large groups running amok then you can tell there is still a lot of people that are passionate about eso pvp (outside of the ocassional chat troll)Mazari the Resurrected (AD)- PVP stamplar main
Maz the Druid - PVP group stam warden
- many others
____________
Fantasia0 -
HoloYoitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Jeez Moji, your passive aggressiveness is reaching Steve levels. Next you just need to Ambush someone 18 times.2 -
SmellyUnlimited✭✭✭✭I definitely do not agree about handing out Master or Maelstrom weapons though. Those are events that a player should have to contend with; not simply get handed what might have taken quite a few hours worth of Maelstrom grinding to obtain.
Maelstrom especially, completion shows (at least to a good degree) that someone knows how to play their class, and has used the wealth of tools available to earn their success. I've been doing Cyrodil off and on from my wee early levels to when I hit V16, and saw 75% of the fights in the game devolve into mass Zerg v Zerg. No measure at all as toa person's ability; sheer numbers are the name of the game (and being only EP, we NEVER had the numbers).
Show me a PvP event that requires even a sliver of the skill required to do well in VMA, and I might well backtrack on offering those as rewards. Never seen it, though.DO. NOT. WIPE. (in game OR out!)0 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SmellyUnlimited wrote: »I definitely do not agree about handing out Master or Maelstrom weapons though. Those are events that a player should have to contend with; not simply get handed what might have taken quite a few hours worth of Maelstrom grinding to obtain.
Master weapons were originally AvA rewards too. Until ESO 2.1, included in gold AvA rewards were Master weapons and Trial sets. When the level cap was increased to v16, they were removed as those items were not immediately updated to V16 but were never replaced by comparable items.
So why were AvA players worthy of those items then and not now? How is earning AP any less valid that being carried through vDSA or Trials?
I consider PVE in ESO ezmode. Even vMA isn't that difficult anymore. At least in PVP there is an opportunity for great challenges. Because PVE is so easy, does that make its players undeserving of rewards?
A lot of players lack perspective because AvA has taken a back seat for so long. When ESO was introduced, AvA was as relevant in ESO as PVE. Its players are not second class citizens. We deserve robust rewards too.
A big reason PVP focused players quit ESO and never return is because of the PVE item grind. Players into open world AvA PVP probably don't want to spend dozens or hundreds of hours grinding 4-12 player PVE instances to remain competitive. To better retain players, change the itemization dynamics so PVP players can progress their characters by doing what they enjoy: PVP.
Edited by zyk on September 12, 2017 9:13PM4 -
NightbladeMechanics✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SmellyUnlimited wrote: »I definitely do not agree about handing out Master or Maelstrom weapons though. Those are events that a player should have to contend with; not simply get handed what might have taken quite a few hours worth of Maelstrom grinding to obtain.
Maelstrom especially, completion shows (at least to a good degree) that someone knows how to play their class, and has used the wealth of tools available to earn their success. I've been doing Cyrodil off and on from my wee early levels to when I hit V16, and saw 75% of the fights in the game devolve into mass Zerg v Zerg. No measure at all as toa person's ability; sheer numbers are the name of the game (and being only EP, we NEVER had the numbers).
Show me a PvP event that requires even a sliver of the skill required to do well in VMA, and I might well backtrack on offering those as rewards. Never seen it, though.
vMA is essentially a series of long, choreographed 1vXs. You are alone and outnumbered, solely responsible for all of the damage to get kills as well as all of your own survivability. However, vMA is repetitive where no two Cyrodiil encounters will ever be exactly the same. vMA is a good indicator is PvP skill, but solo outnumbered open world PvP will always be more demanding of skill than vMA.
In fact, when recruiting for my guild during Orsinium and Thieves Guild patches, back when vMA was unlearned by most people and hadn't been nerfed so much, I paid great attention to Flawless Conquerors in Cyrodiil and recruited a couple who eventually became excellent PvPers. Back then, to perform well in vMA was to have the skills necessary and the potential to perform well in PvP, even if you hadn't accumulated PvP experience yet.
It would be extremely difficult for ZOS to implement some PvP reward for individual skill, though. First, they'd have to come up with a way to detect it... Leaderboards reward time played, BGs don't put you under the same pressure as Cyrodiil scenarios, duels are mere 1v1s... You could add some carefully crafted and extremely difficult achievements , completion of which would only feasibly occur in 1vX scenarios. End game trials use this approach to reward the best trial groups. The issue is that achievements do not reward ongoing performance. We wouldn't want PvP rewards to have a finite end, as PvP has no finite end.
Then you risk offending all the snowflakes who think zerging from one keep to the next is skillful. ZOS will and does listen to them, and implementing anything explicitly branded as rewarding individual skill or self-improvement in PvP risks being branded as elitist and toxic as opposed to ambitious and revered.
TLDR: I agree that trial gear shouldn't be handed out to everyone who plays long enough, but going down the path of rewarding skill is a very delicate situation. Also vMA has never been and is by no means the pinnacle of individual skill in this game. lolKena
Legion XIII
Excellence without elitism
Premier small scale PvP
Legend
NA/PC's original dueling and PvP community guild
Now NA/PC's dueling, BGs, small scale, GvG, and general PvP community. We float just under 500 members. Mail me in game for an invite.
Apex Predator.
Here's a great thread collecting community ideas for PvP updates.
[MEGATHREAD] Feedback Threads for Class Reps
Class Representative Feedback Discords:Nightblade Discussion:
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NightbladeMechanics✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Also, more than you would thing, there are plenty of us that fight for the pride of winning the campaign by outmaneuvering the other alliances on a large scale over 30 days. We're easy to miss in zone chat if a player is focused on themselves and not the alliance.
Yeah, I should know.NightbladeMechanics wrote: »At this point, it has to be new.
Just adding resources won't change much because they are the same mechanic, 2 years old. Needed to be in the game 2 yrs ago.
Content is king.
It's a sound and enlightened attitude -- merging PvE and PvP, making Cyrodiil the high end zone where the two fight together over something they both want.
But yea, I need something new too. Not necessarily a new map, though. A new dynamic and new gameplay patterns in Cyro would be enough to keep me engaged.
What could change in Cyro to make you want to come back and play hardcore like you did in the old days? Anything? I don't see ZOS developing any brand new map the same size as Cyro, nor do I see just a new map creating long term enthusiasm for PvP.
@Satiar what about you? What could ZOS do that would bring back our enthusiasm for Cyro, if anything?
Not much to do there. Vehemence is retiring from ESO and so am I. Only real way we'd come back is if the game was a thriving pvp haven, without performance issues that plagued it for years. As is it just doesn't work right and pretty much all the old competitors are gone with naught to replace them.
Steve,
You know my feelings towards VE very well already.
I will say I am going to miss the challenge of dealing with them.
Competitors thrive when there's challenge and sport on the other side.
Now DC's just going to be a chore to deal with, not a challenge.
Good luck to you and Kirsi and Kirin.
I still think us rerolling caused more bad feelings than if we'd just been a native DC guild, but overall I doubt most ppl even know we were EP these days. ''Tis all ancient history.
My only real sadness is that DC never developed more guilds during our tenure. We really hoped that our presence would inspire more guilds to climb the ranks as it were, but it's mostly in the same spot we found it. That's prob more on ZoS than anything else tho.
Are we playing on the same mega server? DC by far has had the largest amount of organized guilds for a long time, and that is still true today.
Do me a favour and list the organized guilds present when we rolled to DC and the organized guilds active now.
Isn't that your buddy crispy's job not mine? I don't keep a list of all the dc guilds (or really care), but I can tell you I have already seen 4 different groups of DC with 12 or more people this morning.
If you wanna throw out facts you should be able to back it up.
What I said is fairly common knowledge to anyone who keep their eyes open while pvping. Thought you had common knowledge. My bad forgive me.
Common knowledge appears to be wrong in this instance. There was a period of time when DC had the upper hand in organized guilds but those days are long past.
I don't think he was talking about having the upper hand necessarily. You said you are sad that DC did not develop more guilds during VE's tenure here. Moji said that DC has had a greater number of organized guilds than the other factions for a while.
When did guilds like Legions of Mordor, CN, Blood of Daggerfall, LoD, LoDG, PB, Requiem, and all those other zone chat guilds form, and how many guilds did DC have running during mid-1.6 exactly? I only started PvPing shortly after VE rerolled to DC, so my history is fuzzy. I don't remember seeing those names back then, though, and I haven't seen nearly as many names rolling on other factions. Not that I pay particularly close attention to guilds, so I'm asking.Kena
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CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SmellyUnlimited wrote: »I definitely do not agree about handing out Master or Maelstrom weapons though. Those are events that a player should have to contend with; not simply get handed what might have taken quite a few hours worth of Maelstrom grinding to obtain.
Maelstrom especially, completion shows (at least to a good degree) that someone knows how to play their class, and has used the wealth of tools available to earn their success. I've been doing Cyrodil off and on from my wee early levels to when I hit V16, and saw 75% of the fights in the game devolve into mass Zerg v Zerg. No measure at all as toa person's ability; sheer numbers are the name of the game (and being only EP, we NEVER had the numbers).
Show me a PvP event that requires even a sliver of the skill required to do well in VMA, and I might well backtrack on offering those as rewards. Never seen it, though.
I agree regarding Maelstrom weapons, but Master stuff used to drop as campaign rewards in the first place. I think some kind of reward of this tier should drop in cyrodiil, but the criteria for getting one should be more than just AP farmed. Some of the most prolific AP gainers are also some of the worst PvPers I've ever seen.
It's an interesting point you make regarding vMA though. For all the flak it gets, the initial runs of that trial are an excellent test of mechanics and self survivability. It makes you apply a lot of the same core mechanics that PvP requires. As such, it's actually an excellent barometer for PvP viability. Discussed this with a few friends before and it's consistently seemed to hold true. If you can complete vMA, you can be a good PvPer. If you cannot clear vMA, you'll never break through a certain tier of performance.
I say all this, to suggest as per the broader topic, if we couldn't use this same concept of 'simulated' PvP dynamics in PvE to create a training grounds of some sorts where aspiring PvPers could practice their skills in a comfortable setting. I feel like one of the biggest obstacle for new players is getting acclimated to how PvP works in the first place before being thrown to the Lions' maw. How many people step into Cyrodiil wide eyed, get ohko'd, and then never come back? To this end, Zenimax can do a much better job of teaching new players very simple and basic, yet essential concepts such as the importance of timely CC breaks or setting up burst combos.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NightbladeMechanics wrote: »PeaNutShotz wrote: »Vdsa weapons should be put back into the end of the campaign rewards for the top tier pvpers. I miss my master weapons. As for them being vMA weapons no. Those should only be earned thru vMA. Now people are gonna say why one and not the other. Well strictly on one reason. We got master weapons before and should receive them again for top tier pvpers. Now I would change on how it works tho.
You could only get them on the 30 day campaigns cuz right now pc na doesn't have the pvp population to keep 7 campaigns open.
Fix the lag
Double the AP from keep defenses. I so miss those chalamo ticks
Fix the FPS issues we've been having for 2 yrs
Last but not least. Rework the RotW like Agrippa mentioned in his post and so many positive comments to make RotW better.
Do that and I can see new player joining and old players coming back.
If they reintroduce Master weapons, then they need to rework 2h and destro staves, and potentially others. I'm not thinking through all of them right now.
Although "because they used to" is not logical justification for reintroducing them to the rewards. ZOS removed them "because all trial gear should be exclusive to trial completions." That's a sound principle, and is consistent with making trial gear BoP. In order to have them reintroduced, you'll have to argue on a new principle.
Lag and fps issues are likely out of ZOS' control, seeing as they haven't been fixed yet.
I can get behind defensive tick buffs, but honestly I'd like to see a more extensive rework of PvP rewards, including AP.
Speaking of which, they need to close some campaigns for sure, but I would also like to see incentives to play in all of the campaigns, not just your home campaign. Do away with guest campaigns already, and let us play in all of them. I'd like for end of campaign rewards reworked more than RftW, and awarded for every campaign in which you earn some fraction of your total AP during the period. Perhaps 15% of your total AP if there are three campaigns on the server. You might even do away with home campaigns altogether and let us hold leaderboard positions in all campaigns at once. World's first emperor in two simultaneous campaigns inc?
@NightbladeMechanics
Did Zos state they removed the Master weapons from end of Campaign rewards because they wanted them locked behind trial content?
I do recall master weapons were entirely outdated for about a year since they were v14 max. At the time trials still had BoE gear dropping in them. It would make sense and I had expected Zos did not want such a weapon able to drop at v16 in the campaign rewards when it only dropped at v14 in the content that introduced them.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I do think if the new CC weapons are anywhere near best in slot for some builds in pvp there should be an alternate method of attaining them in pvp.
Maelstrom- and Masterweapons i could get behind being pve locked. If bis weapons become 12man vet trial locked it´s gonna create problems of being geargated for pvp.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 504 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NightbladeMechanics wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Also, more than you would thing, there are plenty of us that fight for the pride of winning the campaign by outmaneuvering the other alliances on a large scale over 30 days. We're easy to miss in zone chat if a player is focused on themselves and not the alliance.
Yeah, I should know.NightbladeMechanics wrote: »At this point, it has to be new.
Just adding resources won't change much because they are the same mechanic, 2 years old. Needed to be in the game 2 yrs ago.
Content is king.
It's a sound and enlightened attitude -- merging PvE and PvP, making Cyrodiil the high end zone where the two fight together over something they both want.
But yea, I need something new too. Not necessarily a new map, though. A new dynamic and new gameplay patterns in Cyro would be enough to keep me engaged.
What could change in Cyro to make you want to come back and play hardcore like you did in the old days? Anything? I don't see ZOS developing any brand new map the same size as Cyro, nor do I see just a new map creating long term enthusiasm for PvP.
@Satiar what about you? What could ZOS do that would bring back our enthusiasm for Cyro, if anything?
Not much to do there. Vehemence is retiring from ESO and so am I. Only real way we'd come back is if the game was a thriving pvp haven, without performance issues that plagued it for years. As is it just doesn't work right and pretty much all the old competitors are gone with naught to replace them.
Steve,
You know my feelings towards VE very well already.
I will say I am going to miss the challenge of dealing with them.
Competitors thrive when there's challenge and sport on the other side.
Now DC's just going to be a chore to deal with, not a challenge.
Good luck to you and Kirsi and Kirin.
I still think us rerolling caused more bad feelings than if we'd just been a native DC guild, but overall I doubt most ppl even know we were EP these days. ''Tis all ancient history.
My only real sadness is that DC never developed more guilds during our tenure. We really hoped that our presence would inspire more guilds to climb the ranks as it were, but it's mostly in the same spot we found it. That's prob more on ZoS than anything else tho.
Are we playing on the same mega server? DC by far has had the largest amount of organized guilds for a long time, and that is still true today.
Do me a favour and list the organized guilds present when we rolled to DC and the organized guilds active now.
Isn't that your buddy crispy's job not mine? I don't keep a list of all the dc guilds (or really care), but I can tell you I have already seen 4 different groups of DC with 12 or more people this morning.
If you wanna throw out facts you should be able to back it up.
What I said is fairly common knowledge to anyone who keep their eyes open while pvping. Thought you had common knowledge. My bad forgive me.
Common knowledge appears to be wrong in this instance. There was a period of time when DC had the upper hand in organized guilds but those days are long past.
I don't think he was talking about having the upper hand necessarily. You said you are sad that DC did not develop more guilds during VE's tenure here. Moji said that DC has had a greater number of organized guilds than the other factions for a while.
When did guilds like Legions of Mordor, CN, Blood of Daggerfall, LoD, LoDG, PB, Requiem, and all those other zone chat guilds form, and how many guilds did DC have running during mid-1.6 exactly? I only started PvPing shortly after VE rerolled to DC, so my history is fuzzy. I don't remember seeing those names back then, though, and I haven't seen nearly as many names rolling on other factions. Not that I pay particularly close attention to guilds, so I'm asking.
@NightbladeMechanics
So. When we arrived on DC there were plenty of guilds but the trouble was with quality. One of my early memories of being on DC was Ash getting UA and riding over with Bulb and 5-6 others. We found 40+ DC huddled in the inner while 8-9 Havoc members ran in circles around the outer wall melting anyone who got near with dets. It wasn't a matter of cowardice, it was simply ppl were tired of running into Havoc and getting smashed over and over. There just weren't active groups capable of going toe to toe. One of our biggest initial focuses was training. We wanted to develop DC guilds who could fight back.
This failed for a variety of reasons. Unhappily much of the blame can probably fall on Bulb and I, we had a very straightforward "this is what you have to do and if you don't like it too bad" approach which did not go over well. But we also had ppl who did listen who found that required gear specs, bar layouts and raid comp was too hardcore for what they wanted, and some who just straight disagreed with us.
So today when we leave it feels about the same as when we came. There are no new elite DC squads. Many of the same groups are still running, some have improved some have regressed. But we didn't leave anyone behind capable of walking up to Drac/Inv/etc and engaging them without greatly outnumbering them.
During the last few months of playing the guilds I regularly saw play on a weekly basis was BoD, Shadowgrabber and Pug Guild. BoD rarely gets full raids and the other two are pick up groups....
But this is mostly "State of the Game". I look back to before VE rerolled. EP with Havoc, IR/Nexus, VE, GoS and a bunch of pick up groups/casual raids. I don't think we'll ever get back to that. And for that to even happen the board was so tilted in favor of EP it was nearly game killing.
So that's what I meant. There's always some pug raids or raid guilds but from a competitive standpoint you need a decent spread of high end guilds to fight other high end guilds. I'd hoped that having a top-tier raid guild would inspire others to get there just as Bulbasir was inspired to form the raiding arm of VE by playing with DIE. But for whatever reason, this did not happen. The last guild that managed to go from free AP to threat was PM, who found a niche during the Destro/rememberence age (very similar to CN finding their groove with Steel Tornado and Barrier). But it was on EP which already had a wealth of top end guilds and shortly thereafter seems to have lost many of its leads and much of its core.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost3 -
doslekis✭✭✭@NightbladeMechanics
What about the fact that you need different gear for pvp? I know we can't homogenize all encounters so 1 set of gear fits every situation, but new players come to pvp and die near instantly because they're not running impen, enough sustain, whatever.
Perhaps a vendor that allows you to "borrow" blue gear while in cyrodiil. You hop in cyro and go to vendor X and get your impen gear in a small selection of sets for stam/mag/tanks. This gear can't be re-enchanted, traded, upgraded, modified in any way, or used outside.
GW2 had a similar feature where you could create a PVP only character which would be max level when created, and you could choose decent gear to use to get the hang of it
I don't normally use daggers, but when I do, I choose dos Lekis.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So that's what I meant. There's always some pug raids or raid guilds but from a competitive standpoint you need a decent spread of high end guilds to fight other high end guilds. I'd hoped that having a top-tier raid guild would inspire others to get there just as Bulbasir was inspired to form the raiding arm of VE by playing with DIE. But for whatever reason, this did not happen. The last guild that managed to go from free AP to threat was PM, who found a niche during the Destro/rememberence age (very similar to CN finding their groove with Steel Tornado and Barrier). But it was on EP which already had a wealth of top end guilds and shortly thereafter seems to have lost many of its leads and much of its core.
And that´s why needing 12 to 16 people to even start having a competetive roster (and then have them all online at the same time) is in my opinion not desireable for a game.
It´s too much to organise for a relatively large part of the playerbase and thus excluding them from ever being competetive for extended periods of time.
Usually if the leader burns out the groups cease to exist.
It´s one of the reasons why over time games reduced their raidsizes, groupsizes etc.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So that's what I meant. There's always some pug raids or raid guilds but from a competitive standpoint you need a decent spread of high end guilds to fight other high end guilds. I'd hoped that having a top-tier raid guild would inspire others to get there just as Bulbasir was inspired to form the raiding arm of VE by playing with DIE. But for whatever reason, this did not happen. The last guild that managed to go from free AP to threat was PM, who found a niche during the Destro/rememberence age (very similar to CN finding their groove with Steel Tornado and Barrier). But it was on EP which already had a wealth of top end guilds and shortly thereafter seems to have lost many of its leads and much of its core.
And that´s why needing 12 to 16 people to even start having a competetive roster (and then have them all online at the same time) is in my opinion not desireable for a game.
It´s too much to organise for a relatively large part of the playerbase and thus excluding them from ever being competetive for extended periods of time.
Usually if the leader burns out the groups cease to exist.
It´s one of the reasons why over time games reduced their raidsizes, groupsizes etc.
Big numbers work but there need to be systems to promote long-term play and competition. Victories need to have consequences.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost0 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think downsizing makes a lot of sense in the current state of the game. While there are faction stacks, 16-24 player groups haven't been nearly as common as they were, so I think 8-12 player groups can be highly effective in many scenarios. No, they won't take on 60 like a well-oiled uberblob can, but I think they can be difference makers and win a lot of fights.
The best argument I can make to not run 24 is the per-faction population cap. I believe it is generally estimated to be approximately 150 which makes a 24 player group approximately 16% of a faction's population. That's pretty significant and goes a long way towards concentrating fights in only a few locations -- especially when it might take 40 randoms to wipe an elite group.Edited by zyk on September 14, 2017 8:14PM0 -
Agrippa_Invisus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think downsizing makes a lot of sense in the current state of the game. While there are faction stacks, 16-24 player groups haven't been nearly as common as they were, so I think 8-12 player groups can be highly effective in many scenarios. No, they won't take on 60 like a well-oiled uberblob can, but I think they can be difference makers and win a lot of fights.
The best argument I can make to not run 24 is the per-faction population cap. I believe it is generally estimated to be approximately 150 which makes a 24 player group approximately 16% of a faction's population. That's pretty significant and goes a long way towards concentrating fights in only a few locations -- especially when it might take 40 randoms to wipe an elite group.
IMO, the group size should never, ever have been allowed to be greater than what the PVE content allows - 12.
Universal group sizes also allows for easier transition between the two activities. A 20 man PVP raid can't convert easily into two 12 man raids for PVE content, but a 12 man can just step out without re-organization and switch between the two with ease.Agrippa Invisus / Indominus / Inprimis / Inviolatus
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Former Emperor of Bloodthorn and Vivec
For Sweetrolls! FOR FIMIAN!2 -
Elong✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Add gold mats to vendors for 100k AP each, perhaps purchasable after a certain alliance rank or after a given daily quest is completed.
Alternatively, Grand Warlord Sorcalin could sent us some--or have a chance to-- in the rewards for the worthy once we reach First Seargant G1.
You don't want to nuke the economy, but handing out useful rewards like that, tied to real, authentic participation would help.
Even AP doesn't cut it. AP doesn't bring life to the map. Imagine: in the middle of the 3 trikeeps there's a resource rich area. Tons of flowers, or tons of mining. Imagine crafting/trade guilds setting up shop there, enemy guilds making raids on the area. You could get an entire pve/pvp ecosystem there, guilds raiding or providing protection, trade guilds forming alliances with pvp guide for protection or to obtain resources.... just one half-baked idea but still! It can't just be AP, it was never enough. Not to create an interconnected pvp community.
A baggage train that moves across Cyrodiil at random times? That would be fantastic.0 -
NightbladeMechanics✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »I think downsizing makes a lot of sense in the current state of the game. While there are faction stacks, 16-24 player groups haven't been nearly as common as they were, so I think 8-12 player groups can be highly effective in many scenarios. No, they won't take on 60 like a well-oiled uberblob can, but I think they can be difference makers and win a lot of fights.
The best argument I can make to not run 24 is the per-faction population cap. I believe it is generally estimated to be approximately 150 which makes a 24 player group approximately 16% of a faction's population. That's pretty significant and goes a long way towards concentrating fights in only a few locations -- especially when it might take 40 randoms to wipe an elite group.
IMO, the group size should never, ever have been allowed to be greater than what the PVE content allows - 12.
Universal group sizes also allows for easier transition between the two activities. A 20 man PVP raid can't convert easily into two 12 man raids for PVE content, but a 12 man can just step out without re-organization and switch between the two with ease.
I'm all for consistency, but I stick by my worry stated when discussing reducing group sizes earlier (I think it was in this thread):
Organized large groups provide a check on massive, groupless faction stacks.
Those massive, groupless faction stacks already crowd at one or two fights on the emp ring as is.
Therefore, reducing the max group size without introducing significant objectives or rewards for spreading out will simply incentivize faction stacking even further, as nothing will be able to stop the tides of bodies except larger tides of bodies.
This means a net decrease in variety of PvP experiences for everyone, which could lead to even more bleeding of the population than we are already seeing.
Imo it all goes back to positive incentives to make people want to move to other places on the map, the goal being to increase variety of experiences, which leads to excitement. People love the VASTNESS of Cyrodiil and the diversity of its landscapes. People WANT to fight all over the map, but there usually aren't fights anywhere out of the emp lanes. Getting people out there could mean a rework of emperorship to reduce the allure of emp keeps, a rework of transit or respawning to reduce travel times to outer keeps, some fun new shinies to chase in the outskirts of the map, a rework of AP ticks or campaign scoring, etc etc. I do not, however, believe simply saying, "ok, no more big groups" would miraculously spread people out and make more people want to play PvP.Kena
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Vilestride✭✭✭✭✭NightbladeMechanics wrote: »Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »I think downsizing makes a lot of sense in the current state of the game. While there are faction stacks, 16-24 player groups haven't been nearly as common as they were, so I think 8-12 player groups can be highly effective in many scenarios. No, they won't take on 60 like a well-oiled uberblob can, but I think they can be difference makers and win a lot of fights.
The best argument I can make to not run 24 is the per-faction population cap. I believe it is generally estimated to be approximately 150 which makes a 24 player group approximately 16% of a faction's population. That's pretty significant and goes a long way towards concentrating fights in only a few locations -- especially when it might take 40 randoms to wipe an elite group.
IMO, the group size should never, ever have been allowed to be greater than what the PVE content allows - 12.
Universal group sizes also allows for easier transition between the two activities. A 20 man PVP raid can't convert easily into two 12 man raids for PVE content, but a 12 man can just step out without re-organization and switch between the two with ease.
I'm all for consistency, but I stick by my worry stated when discussing reducing group sizes earlier (I think it was in this thread):
Organized large groups provide a check on massive, groupless faction stacks.
Those massive, groupless faction stacks already crowd at one or two fights on the emp ring as is.
Therefore, reducing the max group size without introducing significant objectives or rewards for spreading out will simply incentivize faction stacking even further, as nothing will be able to stop the tides of bodies except larger tides of bodies.
This means a net decrease in variety of PvP experiences for everyone, which could lead to even more bleeding of the population than we are already seeing.
Imo it all goes back to positive incentives to make people want to move to other places on the map, the goal being to increase variety of experiences, which leads to excitement. People love the VASTNESS of Cyrodiil and the diversity of its landscapes. People WANT to fight all over the map, but there usually aren't fights anywhere out of the emp lanes. Getting people out there could mean a rework of emperorship to reduce the allure of emp keeps, a rework of transit or respawning to reduce travel times to outer keeps, some fun new shinies to chase in the outskirts of the map, a rework of AP ticks or campaign scoring, etc etc. I do not, however, believe simply saying, "ok, no more big groups" would miraculously spread people out and make more people want to play PvP.
would it be too drastic to reconsider the positioning the current keeps so that the lanes of transit were not so direct? So for example if BRK was positioned more to the east so the transit lines were more equal. So now it would be as quick a ride from BRK to drake or BRK to Farragut as it is from BRK to arrius. This would break own the conventionally popular travel routes and encourage fights on the roads between all 3 keeps rather than just 1.
This is just one example and I'm not saying its necessarily a good one, but just pointing out how even the intelligent re-positioning of even just the current keeps could result in more, and different fights than we see day to day as it is.1 -
magicsprout✭✭✭Its all about the lag for me. Love a bit of pvp occasionally but large groups equal boot to dash and running solo equals little ap1