Heavy at our already took a big Nerf, its far from OP now. Just stack pen and they melt

a game with api holes convoys of trucks drive through ....armour...*cough...

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Heavy armor is grossly overpowered compared to medium. It sustains just as good thanks to the rapid mending resource bonus, it has access to shuffle like medium and it can provide you with a bunch of damage thanks to an array of offensive heavy armor sets.

Fighting some of these characters becomes impossible when they're dealing more damage than you, sustain better by abusing a resource mechanic and can take 3 times more punishment before going down.

If anyone over there cares about PVP balance, I propose the following;

- Consider tuning down offensive heavy armor sets, there should be no reason for me to run heavy armor and have more damage overall than in medium.
- Restrict armor actives to their armor tree, 5+ pieces required to use that active ability. No more shuffle on heavy armor, in fact, major evasion in heavy armor probably shouldn't be allowed at all.
- Remove the resource sustain from rapid mending, in what world does it make sense to wield a two handed massive weapon in FULL heavy armor and actually replenish your resources at an increased rate? If you were worried about pve tanks not sustaining as well, don't - they sustain perfectly fine in dungeons, and the ones that don't, need to work on their builds a bit.

If you want to see more balanced pvp gameplay in ESO, you really need to look into this heavy armor meta, it will only get worse in time.

Oh and btw since I'm here, get rid of those proc sets, no one asked for them, no one competent likes them, having your armor do damage for you is incredibly stupid. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to miss the good old 1.5 pvp days too.

Have a good day.

In what world do you live in that you think Heavy has more sustain then Medium and more damage?

In a world where more experienced players than you play.

You wanna compare knowledge of the game with me?

Let's put out the simple facts for you mate.

Currently the two classes that are going to utilize heavy armor in PVP are dragon knights and Templars.

Dragon knights will utilize it because they get bloody stamina/magicka back from using ultimates and stamina back from casting earthen heart line. This is the only reason they generally are able to run something like 5 heavy. That magicka version of it simply runs it because it relies heavily on dots and blocking as they don't have freakin cloak or hardened ward to pick up the slack.

What about Templars? You can get away with using 5 heavy on a stamina Templar but since the resource nerf it's simply not viable hence why most of them you see will run something like 2 heavy with 5 medium to take advantage of ravager. Again they're rolling around in 5 medium for a reason. Magicka Templars esp healers will roll around in heavy armor but they're running heavy sustain through their skills and not heavy armor itself.

You don't see sorcs nor nightblades generally run heavy armor. They have zero need to; so when you say something like the heavy armor meta... I laugh at the sheer stupidity of it because the two most played pvp classes don't run heavy armor.

So step the hell off chump change.

Solariken wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Heavy armor is grossly overpowered compared to medium. It sustains just as good thanks to the rapid mending resource bonus, it has access to shuffle like medium and it can provide you with a bunch of damage thanks to an array of offensive heavy armor sets.

Fighting some of these characters becomes impossible when they're dealing more damage than you, sustain better by abusing a resource mechanic and can take 3 times more punishment before going down.

If anyone over there cares about PVP balance, I propose the following;

- Consider tuning down offensive heavy armor sets, there should be no reason for me to run heavy armor and have more damage overall than in medium.
- Restrict armor actives to their armor tree, 5+ pieces required to use that active ability. No more shuffle on heavy armor, in fact, major evasion in heavy armor probably shouldn't be allowed at all.
- Remove the resource sustain from rapid mending, in what world does it make sense to wield a two handed massive weapon in FULL heavy armor and actually replenish your resources at an increased rate? If you were worried about pve tanks not sustaining as well, don't - they sustain perfectly fine in dungeons, and the ones that don't, need to work on their builds a bit.

If you want to see more balanced pvp gameplay in ESO, you really need to look into this heavy armor meta, it will only get worse in time.

Oh and btw since I'm here, get rid of those proc sets, no one asked for them, no one competent likes them, having your armor do damage for you is incredibly stupid. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to miss the good old 1.5 pvp days too.

Have a good day.

In what world do you live in that you think Heavy has more sustain then Medium and more damage?

See Ravager, Seventh Legion, et al.

See above.

No, I don't want to compare knowledge with you, I want to compare experience which you obviously do not have. Players like you can go around throwing numbers left and right, but as soon as they fail to demonstrate any practical experience in terms of theorycrafting or gameplay, it stops being relevant in my opinion.

Let me educate you a bit. I've played medium and heavy on all classes except Warden and I can confirm from experience that in a fight between two equally skilled (and geared) opponents, heavy is going to win every single time no discussion about it which is something that doesn't (and shouldn't) make sense at all from a logical perspective.

If you don't want to listen to me, listen to some other players who's opinions I respect and value, having seen them play the game and be very successful at it.

@Ragnaroek93 @Murador178 @Blobsky @Dillpat @Aelakhaii_De_Mythos @Derra @DeHei and more but this will do.

kaithuzar wrote: »

Heavy armor isn't exactly giving you a ton of damage, nor is it giving a ton of sustain like black rose use to. IMO I feel like what the OP is frustrated with is that his opponents can create a clever alchemist build with heavy armor & wreck him within that small potion duration.

Nice try, but wrong on so many levels.

Heavy does give you more damage as demonstrated in a few examples above, mage doesn't 'get rekt' by clever alchemist (not that I can recall at least), mage simply notices the imbalance of heavy vs medium and thinks it's *** because mage also wants to play a rogue character in pvp like decimus but is forced into heavy armor every single time and he thinks this is wrong and unfair to many players that ARE running such builds in PVP and are getting packed left and right in medium because they simply cannot compete, with a play style they do not enjoy playing themselves (thank you Decimus, very well put).

So next time you show up to speculate as to why someone is opening a thread about anything, perhaps you should ask before putting out ridiculous conclusions.

As for alchemist, that set is not even that good compared to ravager, seventh and even fury. We're talking Cyrodiil here of course, in 1v1 it can be very strong but still nothing better than the previous ones.

It´s not easy to generalize heavy being better than medium anymore.

To give an example of what i think about both armor weights i´ll stick to my main class (which is sorc):
Heavy compares to medium like a necropotence pet dueling build compares to an amberplasm willpower maelstrom open world build.
One works well for controlled situations whereas the other works better when utilizing terrain, kiting and killing scrubs.

This gets amplified further by certain classes being better in medium while other are better in heavy (generally immobile healing oriented favors heavy).

The only statement i vehemently disagree with is nightblade being bad in heavyarmor. Both specs for NB, stamina and magica work marvelous in heavy.
I´d go as far as stating the only reason heavy stamblade didn´t catch fire is because of proccsets being almost exclusively medium and eternal hunt offering insane synergy to dodge + cloak evasive playstyle.

I don´t generally disagree generally with medium needing a buff but i think giving medium the same 1v1 potential heavy has while maintaining it´s undeniable mobility advantage over heavy for open world combat would be undesireable from a balancing perspective (what would be the incentive to run heavy on stamina builds in that case).

The easist solution would be a passiv, that reduce incoming damage for arround 25%, but reducing also the damageoutput for 50% while wearing 5+ pieces heavy armor. This passiv for the other what gives spell- & weapondamage!

Problem solved!

I personally think, that some heavy armorset like seventh legion, revegar or fury need a 5th setpiecenerf. Medium armor need more damage mitigation to make it optional in PvP..

Xsorus wrote: »

Currently the two classes that are going to utilize heavy armor in PVP are dragon knights and Templars.

Most mDKs have gone to light and magplars seem to be moving in that direction as well. With sets like impregnable and wizard's riposte, the extra mitigation from heavy isn't nearly as attractive as it was compared to extra penetration and cost reduction.

The only acceptable changes would increase TTK

Any advocated changes that decrease TTK must be completely disregarded.

Someone always wants to complain about the armor set that they're not wearing.

Light and Medium armor wearers hate heavy armor if they get a damage bonus... so they scream to take away the damage.

Then, if a heavy armor wearer uses sets that makes them really, really hard to kill... they scream about "unkillable" cancer builds.

So what do you want? Heavy armor builds to have no damage and to die easily??? FFS.

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Heavy armor is grossly overpowered compared to medium. It sustains just as good thanks to the rapid mending resource bonus, it has access to shuffle like medium and it can provide you with a bunch of damage thanks to an array of offensive heavy armor sets.

Fighting some of these characters becomes impossible when they're dealing more damage than you, sustain better by abusing a resource mechanic and can take 3 times more punishment before going down.

If anyone over there cares about PVP balance, I propose the following;

- Consider tuning down offensive heavy armor sets, there should be no reason for me to run heavy armor and have more damage overall than in medium.
- Restrict armor actives to their armor tree, 5+ pieces required to use that active ability. No more shuffle on heavy armor, in fact, major evasion in heavy armor probably shouldn't be allowed at all.
- Remove the resource sustain from rapid mending, in what world does it make sense to wield a two handed massive weapon in FULL heavy armor and actually replenish your resources at an increased rate? If you were worried about pve tanks not sustaining as well, don't - they sustain perfectly fine in dungeons, and the ones that don't, need to work on their builds a bit.

If you want to see more balanced pvp gameplay in ESO, you really need to look into this heavy armor meta, it will only get worse in time.

Oh and btw since I'm here, get rid of those proc sets, no one asked for them, no one competent likes them, having your armor do damage for you is incredibly stupid. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to miss the good old 1.5 pvp days too.

Have a good day.

In what world do you live in that you think Heavy has more sustain then Medium and more damage?

In a world where more experienced players than you play.

You wanna compare knowledge of the game with me?

Let's put out the simple facts for you mate.

Currently the two classes that are going to utilize heavy armor in PVP are dragon knights and Templars.

Dragon knights will utilize it because they get bloody stamina/magicka back from using ultimates and stamina back from casting earthen heart line. This is the only reason they generally are able to run something like 5 heavy. That magicka version of it simply runs it because it relies heavily on dots and blocking as they don't have freakin cloak or hardened ward to pick up the slack.

What about Templars? You can get away with using 5 heavy on a stamina Templar but since the resource nerf it's simply not viable hence why most of them you see will run something like 2 heavy with 5 medium to take advantage of ravager. Again they're rolling around in 5 medium for a reason. Magicka Templars esp healers will roll around in heavy armor but they're running heavy sustain through their skills and not heavy armor itself.

You don't see sorcs nor nightblades generally run heavy armor. They have zero need to; so when you say something like the heavy armor meta... I laugh at the sheer stupidity of it because the two most played pvp classes don't run heavy armor.

So step the hell off chump change.

Solariken wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Heavy armor is grossly overpowered compared to medium. It sustains just as good thanks to the rapid mending resource bonus, it has access to shuffle like medium and it can provide you with a bunch of damage thanks to an array of offensive heavy armor sets.

Fighting some of these characters becomes impossible when they're dealing more damage than you, sustain better by abusing a resource mechanic and can take 3 times more punishment before going down.

If anyone over there cares about PVP balance, I propose the following;

- Consider tuning down offensive heavy armor sets, there should be no reason for me to run heavy armor and have more damage overall than in medium.
- Restrict armor actives to their armor tree, 5+ pieces required to use that active ability. No more shuffle on heavy armor, in fact, major evasion in heavy armor probably shouldn't be allowed at all.
- Remove the resource sustain from rapid mending, in what world does it make sense to wield a two handed massive weapon in FULL heavy armor and actually replenish your resources at an increased rate? If you were worried about pve tanks not sustaining as well, don't - they sustain perfectly fine in dungeons, and the ones that don't, need to work on their builds a bit.

If you want to see more balanced pvp gameplay in ESO, you really need to look into this heavy armor meta, it will only get worse in time.

Oh and btw since I'm here, get rid of those proc sets, no one asked for them, no one competent likes them, having your armor do damage for you is incredibly stupid. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to miss the good old 1.5 pvp days too.

Have a good day.

In what world do you live in that you think Heavy has more sustain then Medium and more damage?

See Ravager, Seventh Legion, et al.

See above.

Nearly all staminaguys, who play very successful in PvP, wear heavy armor. Only nightblades can compensate the less damage mitigation from medium armor with cloak. In PvE its not a problem.. there its all fine.

Against me or other is wearing medium armor for a duell something like suicid! Heavy armor is stronger for passiva and in sets you can choose.

For magickaplayer you can go more damage like me with light armor. If you want to stay tankier is heavy armor also a solution.
BUT not only templar and DKs can successful use it. Its just wrong. If you want a meleerangebuild you should only prefer heavy armor, but others are possible too.

Only medium armor get too much damage in fight and should get buffed for damage mitigation or something, what makes it more optional like light armor for magickaplayer.

jaburns wrote: »

Someone always wants to complain about the armor set that they're not wearing.

Light and Medium armor wearers hate heavy armor if they get a damage bonus... so they scream to take away the damage.

Then, if a heavy armor wearer uses sets that makes them really, really hard to kill... they scream about "unkillable" cancer builds.

So what do you want? Heavy armor builds to have no damage and to die easily??? FFS.

Some of us play all three and various classes, and we would like to see a little better balance because it makes the process of choosing which armor to use more interesting and more fun coming up with build ideas. If the choice is too easy, this is boring.

In my case, I was thrilled that heavy armor finally became viable last year, because since launch it had been trash, less tanky than light armor, less damage and crap sustain. However, it became too easy of a choice because the sustain was excellent, damage output excellent while still being close to phys/spell resistance cap.

It was similar situation with update 1.6 (jan 2015), when finally medium armor became viable, but it was a bit overpowered because you could roll dodge permanently and nirnhoned trait was too strong.

The devs have been working for a long time to balance these three armor categories based on player feedback and testing. I don't envy them because this is not simple, and the pendulum swings a bit this way and that.

There is certainly a role for extreme tank builds in pvp who get decent sustain from Constitution when they are getting attacked but don't do much damage. And for squishy players with incredibly high burst damage, and then everybody else in between.

Destruent wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

The easist solution would be a passiv, that reduce incoming damage for arround 25%, but reducing also the damageoutput for 50% while wearing 5+ pieces heavy armor. This passiv for the other what gives spell- & weapondamage!

Problem solved!

I personally think, that some heavy armorset like seventh legion, revegar or fury need a 5th setpiecenerf. Medium armor need more damage mitigation to make it optional in PvP..

This....heavy should be all about mitigating damage and selfhealing to stay alive....but definetely NOT about killing enemys fast. If you can outsustain them fine, but killing should never be the primary goal of a heavy-armor specc nor should it be possible to create such a build...

light armor: magicka-damage, healing, shielding
medium: stam-damage + healing, evasion, movement
heavy: dmg-reduction, selfsustain, selfhealing

i never understood why they gave dmg-passives and sets to heavy armor

For the damage argument... If we just take a look at the skill lines and, for the sake of this argument, ignore sets for a moment (because you said it's about passives):

Heavy armor gives you 200 weapon/spell damage for 5 seconds after being hit 20 times. There is a restriction.

Medium armor gives you 12% more weapon damage constantly, no restriction. Means at exactly 1663 weapon damage the damage passives get even. From here on agility outperforms wrath.
And this doesn't even takes the bonus crit chance into calculation.

Light armor gives 4884 spell penetration. I can't tell exactly how much more damage this is but it should be something around 7-7,5% if you're not overpenetrating or hitting magickal shields? How much % damage increase gives the 200 dmg from wrath? I can't tell how to calculate this but we should definitely keep this in mind when we talk about how OP the HA damage passive is.
Also the 2191 crit chance aren't even calculated in there, again.


So I think it's save to say that the damage passives from light and medium by far outperform the HA dmg passive.

But, and this is a big but, this get's put into perspective when you take set boni into account. Looking at you, ravager, 7th legion, etc. So maybe there lies the issue rather than into HA passives alone.

I might be in the minority here, but for me the idea of heavy armor as a big thing in pvp kind of coincides with my perception of how it should be. Historically, 15th century battles saw use of full plate and big two-handed weapons to cut through, with fencing techniques for smaller weapons aimed at weak spots in armor. Of course, we are not in Renaissance here, but the inspiration comes from the times past. I also like to see the roots of TES thinking in the universality of heavy.

Not to mention that a blanket nerf to heavy will result in even more empowering of magsorcs, a very strong category already.

What should be probably introduced is mixed armor categories (e.g. 3 medium 3 heavy) with its own unique bonuses, like some added damage but also some received healing, a good compromise for a category of builds.

jaburns wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

jaburns wrote: »

Someone always wants to complain about the armor set that they're not wearing.

Light and Medium armor wearers hate heavy armor if they get a damage bonus... so they scream to take away the damage.

Then, if a heavy armor wearer uses sets that makes them really, really hard to kill... they scream about "unkillable" cancer builds.

So what do you want? Heavy armor builds to have no damage and to die easily??? FFS.

I complain about heavy armor and have a heavy armor stamina nightblade as my current main, heavy armor stamina dk being the main prior to morrowind. Most of the people in this thread played/play heavy armor. It's called being aware and not a sheep. Also called not shooting myself in the leg. Are people not allowed to point out the fact that heavy armor is just plain broken unless they actually play with it?

And to actually respond to your seemingly troll reply, yes. Heavy armor should do very little damage and only be able to tank/sustain with the help of a group. Tanks should not be able to deal damage period, let alone be able to 1 shot burst people while at 30k resists.

I'm sorry- did you just say "Tanks should not be able to do damage period..."? And you want them to only be able to tank/sustain with a group? So... you effectively want them completely out of PVP. Who would even play a tank? You can't actually taunt someone in PVP- so that's out. That would leave healers and damage dealers for PVP. Tanks would run around the AvA zone completely being ignored. Or do you think that a tank's utility in PVP would be to hang out with the group and spam Talons and Warhorn so everyone else can enjoy actually PVPing? That sounds like fun.

So what you're saying is that it's totally fine for a tank to sustain perfectly well, dish out even more damage than medium and on top be 3 times harder to take down with boosted resistances and healing? Might as well rename medium armor into 'gankers put points here' and call it a day.