PVP - Any plans on balancing heavy armor finally?

olsborg

DDuke wrote: »

I, for instance, have mained "rogue" characters in pretty much every (MMO)RPG I've played - if you slap on heavy armor & S&B, you're not playing a rogue character, you're playing a "tank" character and that entirely changes how you play (and enjoy/don't enjoy) the game.

@DDuke This is so true for me too. When I create a character, I have an idea in mind, who he is and how I want to play it, theres a certain amount of immersion there, im far from a roleplayer and enjoy pvp-only in this game, but I have to enjoy the character first, then how its played and then hows its performing, in that order.

DeHei

nCats wrote: »

The "dish out even more damage than medium" quote needs precision. You cannot avoid the fact that 12% damage bonus is there; saying that a fury+auto+wd sets build has more weapon damage is a fallacy as there are options for medium to get a lot of damage as well, and it scales even better with +12%. Plus the crit chance difference cannot be denied and many people deem that important, even with all the Impen gear around.

The ground problem is not which armortype is possible to deal more damage.
There are some HA sets, that give an extreme weapondamageboost, that you can stack it as more in fight as with medium armor. The bigger problem i see, you get unhandable damage while wearing medium armor. In HA you dont get much pressure like that. Just hold vigor on cooldown and all is fine. You dont need to dodge or doing anything else to survive and can make pressure in same time. This is what nearly everybody says just in common duells. How you could use medium armor then in Cyrodiil? Only with a glasscanon build its useful.
Light armor will never have this problem, because you have much more survivalbility options.

Waffennacht

olsborg wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I, for instance, have mained "rogue" characters in pretty much every (MMO)RPG I've played - if you slap on heavy armor & S&B, you're not playing a rogue character, you're playing a "tank" character and that entirely changes how you play (and enjoy/don't enjoy) the game.

@DDuke This is so true for me too. When I create a character, I have an idea in mind, who he is and how I want to play it, theres a certain amount of immersion there, im far from a roleplayer and enjoy pvp-only in this game, but I have to enjoy the character first, then how its played and then hows its performing, in that order.

At which point my mind goes, "no matter how much you love your bow wizard, he will always suck"

There are limitations to "play as you want"

You have the options, just because you don't want to use them doesn't mean they don't exist

DDuke

Waffennacht wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I, for instance, have mained "rogue" characters in pretty much every (MMO)RPG I've played - if you slap on heavy armor & S&B, you're not playing a rogue character, you're playing a "tank" character and that entirely changes how you play (and enjoy/don't enjoy) the game.

@DDuke This is so true for me too. When I create a character, I have an idea in mind, who he is and how I want to play it, theres a certain amount of immersion there, im far from a roleplayer and enjoy pvp-only in this game, but I have to enjoy the character first, then how its played and then hows its performing, in that order.

At which point my mind goes, "no matter how much you love your bow wizard, he will always suck"

There are limitations to "play as you want"

You have the options, just because you don't want to use them doesn't mean they don't exist

Oh, I don't think anyone harbors any ideas about playing a "bow wizard", that isn't really a standard in any (MMO)RPG I'm aware of (do let me know if there's a "bow wizard" as a class/archetype in any - I'm genuinely intrigued now lol)

The leather-wearing "rogue" character however is an entirely different matter - you'd be hard-pressed to find a game marketing itself as RPG that doesn't allow you to viably play one.

Other popular archetypes pretty much every (MMO)RPG has: fighter/warrior, mage/sorcerer/wizard, hunter/ranger, priest, paladin/cleric

...and then you've got archetypes most (MMO)RPGs have: summoner/necromancer, shaman, druid, monk etc.


In ESO, the problem is that you can't viably play a "rogue" type character and you're instead forced into another archetype (tank/warrior) that plays in an entirely different manner and isn't thus enjoyable to people who like playing rogues in (MMO)RPGs.


This is actually what I think is the biggest problem in the game: the lack of build diversity.
Not in terms of builds specifically as there is a decent number of gear options, but more like lack of different playstyles.

Very few of the archetypes I listed above are actually playable in ESO - good luck playing a "hunter" or "ranger" type character for example, it's even less viable than the "rogue".

olsborg

Waffennacht wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I, for instance, have mained "rogue" characters in pretty much every (MMO)RPG I've played - if you slap on heavy armor & S&B, you're not playing a rogue character, you're playing a "tank" character and that entirely changes how you play (and enjoy/don't enjoy) the game.

@DDuke This is so true for me too. When I create a character, I have an idea in mind, who he is and how I want to play it, theres a certain amount of immersion there, im far from a roleplayer and enjoy pvp-only in this game, but I have to enjoy the character first, then how its played and then hows its performing, in that order.

At which point my mind goes, "no matter how much you love your bow wizard, he will always suck"

There are limitations to "play as you want"

You have the options, just because you don't want to use them doesn't mean they don't exist

There are limitations to "play as you want", ofc. But your example as "bow wizard" is quite extreme, and im sure you did that just to prove your point, however, a medium/leather armor wearing character with roguetype acrobatics etc isnt/shouldnt be pushing the limits to "play as you want" imo, however its underperforming and then some if you compare it to heavy armor builds in this game(pvp)

olsborg

There are many threads about this very issue these days, here are 2 other ones with many good suggestions/discussions on how to improve on the balance.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/359700/issues-with-medium-armor-how-to-fix-it/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/364381/medium-armor-in-pvp-needs-a-buff/p1

Ragnaroek93

In my opinion the main problem isn't heavy armor, it is that you can stack so much tankiness while maintaining so much damage. I wouldn't rate heavy armor as totally overpowered (it's a bit too strong in my opinion tho), it's just that you can push builds into such an extreme these days. Sustaining in heavy armor with heavy attacks allows you to stack insane amounts of damage which boost healing and also help a lot to pressure the opponent so that he/she can't fight back.

On top of that you can just go vampire and stick to stage 3 and getting access to the (in my opinion) strongest passive in this game. I've tested against friend (who played a heavy armor nb which is still the "squishiest" class lol...) and at low health my Surprise Attack did crit for 2,1k with a 10k tooltip and 80% critical damage modifier, that's just stupid (for the same reason I think that sorc or necroblade is too strong - it's not the class itself, it's this stupid vampire passive which synergizes far too well with tanky or shield builds).

Subversus

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

In my opinion the main problem isn't heavy armor, it is that you can stack so much tankiness while maintaining so much damage. I wouldn't rate heavy armor as totally overpowered (it's a bit too strong in my opinion tho), it's just that you can push builds into such an extreme these days. Sustaining in heavy armor with heavy attacks allows you to stack insane amounts of damage which boost healing and also help a lot to pressure the opponent so that he/she can't fight back.

On top of that you can just go vampire and stick to stage 3 and getting access to the (in my opinion) strongest passive in this game. I've tested against friend (who played a heavy armor nb which is still the "squishiest" class lol...) and at low health my Surprise Attack did crit for 2,1k with a 10k tooltip and 80% critical damage modifier, that's just stupid (for the same reason I think that sorc or necroblade is too strong - it's not the class itself, it's this stupid vampire passive which synergizes far too well with tanky or shield builds).

Good points, I actually agree with you on this. Heavy armor is not overpowered on its own, alright, but combined with passives like undeath and sets that give insane damage, with super good sustain and healing from the heavy armor passives it becomes op. I guess nerfing heavy armor in pvp would be easier than say nerfing 638 amounts of sets and/or doing one of their derp blanket nerfs that just ends up *** everyone instead...

Joy_Division

Is this generally a heavy armor problem, or the "berserker" armors that allow players to get so much weapon damage just by getting hit?

Will a stamplar do better in a something like Black Rose than Hunding's?

I ask because there aren't any "berserker" sets for magicka. In Homestead, I thought Rattlecage was very good on a magplar/DK - better than light - but after Morrowind, I do not think that is the case anymore,

LegendaryMage

Joy_Division wrote: »

Is this generally a heavy armor problem, or the "berserker" armors that allow players to get so much weapon damage just by getting hit?

Will a stamplar do better in a something like Black Rose than Hunding's?

I ask because there aren't any "berserker" sets for magicka. In Homestead, I thought Rattlecage was very good on a magplar/DK - better than light - but after Morrowind, I do not think that is the case anymore,

I would say yes, the berserker playstyle is a bit out of control, just seventh + wrath is over 700 wpn dmg guaranteed (you're bound to get hit in pvp) and that is a tiny little example of how something that's supposed to be tanky (and maybe even sustainable as per other poster's agreements) isn't just that, but much more. Let's not forget the fact that weapon damage influences healing too so the quickest way towards more efficiency, is to simply stack an offensive stat, kinda like what sorcs are doing with max magicka and shield(s).

Now, for me personally, I have voiced my opinion a few times and I'll repeat. At the minimum, heavy armor should not have access to major evasion (now all you rogue chars think about this for a moment ) and it should not provide 25% more resource return on heavy attacks. Now, the reason why this 25% stat return (constitution and other passives, even wrath, is balanced I'd say) is problematic, is because it allows for build possibilities that are very highly inflated due to alternate sustain methods. In other words, certain strong builds only exist because a player is not forced to build for a bit more regen, but instead is just bumping up their heavy attack return and stacking full damage in heavy.

Now, I'm sorry if some knights out there are getting offended when I (and others) say that a full heavy armor shouldn't dish out top damage (anyone who doesn't know how to do this hasn't fought other players that do) but should instead be a bit more balanced.

I do agree that medium armor needs a buff, but before anyone dives in and starts changing stuff around, as I said before, my simple suggestion is to just do this:

- Rapid mending 10% healing taken, no extra stamina on heavy attacks.
- No shuffle or major evasion for heavy armor users, this should only be available to 'rogues' or ones in medium.

Is any of these two suggestions unreasonable in any way?

p.s. I use heavy armor as much as anyone, all my stam chars are in 5 heavy and 2 med, while in reality it should be in reverse, 5 med and 2 heavy.

edit

nCats wrote: »

The "dish out even more damage than medium" quote needs precision. You cannot avoid the fact that 12% damage bonus is there; saying that a fury+auto+wd sets build has more weapon damage is a fallacy as there are options for medium to get a lot of damage as well, and it scales even better with +12%. Plus the crit chance difference cannot be denied and many people deem that important, even with all the Impen gear around.

Um, the line is so blurred nowadays that it doesn't matter anymore. In theory heavy armor shouldn't come close to medium armor damage output, but thanks to a bunch of offensive sets nowadays, theory doesn't matter at all anymore.

So what happens is that you get a bit of unbalanced passives with a bit of unbalanced stats and synergies (combos) and all of a sudden you have the whole new 'meta' that isn't very enjoyable for a lot of PVP'ers.

So perhaps I didn't express myself 100% accurately in the first post. It's not that heavy armor's passives are 10 times better than med's, it's that the overall combos and overall effectiveness is so much higher in heavy.

I don't know if this is the case, but it really seems to me that we players are often playing a different game. Perhaps it's just the metas between the platforms and mega servers that are different.

On PC EU if you go stam, you go heavy. If you go med as a guest from another megaserver, you're in for a surprise. I don't know who exactly it was, but someone from NA recently (or not so recently) visited PC EU and was shocked at how the meta is different and more messed up on EU, with no chance of dealing with it unless you go the same route.

Brutusmax1mus

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

-Try blocking their heavy attack and hit them with cost increases, root them is often as possible
-I agree with shuffle restrictions. But I am not a fan of its rng as is

There's no blocking heavy attack spam, stamina drain is huge nowadays. The mechanic looks 'nice' on paper but is utterly abused in practice where you do 1-2 skills into a heavy attack (get that stamina back), 1-2 skills into another heavy attack until you wear your opponent down.

I tested with my stamina templar in med and heavy. There is no comparison, heavy is just 3 times better and it doesn't make any sense since heavy should be for tanking and absorbing damage, not dps.

In fact, if you want to sustain well in heavy, you build around rapid mending stam return. Bump it up another 10% in the cps, now you got 35% more resources on heavy attacks and you're rivaling medium sustain easily, plus heavy attacks deal some damage too, it's not like they're completely useless.

Are you not heavy attacking too? Also, dodge 1 heavy and back out of the other and you have severely hit thier sustain.

Get off the "heavy is for tanking " mindset. If you can't fight someone in heavy you're either not exploiting weaknesses, not using your tools, or are built in a way that you can't fight against heavy armor. All 3 are l2p issues that are easy to overcome.

I actually seek out heavy armor users on one of my medium builds bc it is most effective vs them.

Heavy bow, psn injection, gap closer, light attack, spammable, ultimate execute. Practice that and you'll start doing better too.

Medium needs a very slight buff, should be tied to self preservation. Like, 2/4 % damage reduction after a dodge roll for x seconds.

LegendaryMage

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

-Try blocking their heavy attack and hit them with cost increases, root them is often as possible
-I agree with shuffle restrictions. But I am not a fan of its rng as is

There's no blocking heavy attack spam, stamina drain is huge nowadays. The mechanic looks 'nice' on paper but is utterly abused in practice where you do 1-2 skills into a heavy attack (get that stamina back), 1-2 skills into another heavy attack until you wear your opponent down.

I tested with my stamina templar in med and heavy. There is no comparison, heavy is just 3 times better and it doesn't make any sense since heavy should be for tanking and absorbing damage, not dps.

In fact, if you want to sustain well in heavy, you build around rapid mending stam return. Bump it up another 10% in the cps, now you got 35% more resources on heavy attacks and you're rivaling medium sustain easily, plus heavy attacks deal some damage too, it's not like they're completely useless.

Are you not heavy attacking too? Also, dodge 1 heavy and back out of the other and you have severely hit thier sustain.

Get off the "heavy is for tanking " mindset. If you can't fight someone in heavy you're either not exploiting weaknesses, not using your tools, or are built in a way that you can't fight against heavy armor. All 3 are l2p issues that are easy to overcome.

I actually seek out heavy armor users on one of my medium builds bc it is most effective vs them.

Heavy bow, psn injection, gap closer, light attack, spammable, ultimate execute. Practice that and you'll start doing better too.

Medium needs a very slight buff, should be tied to self preservation. Like, 2/4 % damage reduction after a dodge roll for x seconds.

Sorry bud but I don't think I need fighting lessons from you, even though your intentions are good.

Waffennacht

I notice very few mention heavy magicka, and I keep seeing Stam based heavy sets being talked about. I'd sure hate to have my heavy mag nerfed cuz of these Stam sets

Xsorus

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Heavy armor is grossly overpowered compared to medium. It sustains just as good thanks to the rapid mending resource bonus, it has access to shuffle like medium and it can provide you with a bunch of damage thanks to an array of offensive heavy armor sets.

Fighting some of these characters becomes impossible when they're dealing more damage than you, sustain better by abusing a resource mechanic and can take 3 times more punishment before going down.

If anyone over there cares about PVP balance, I propose the following;

- Consider tuning down offensive heavy armor sets, there should be no reason for me to run heavy armor and have more damage overall than in medium.
- Restrict armor actives to their armor tree, 5+ pieces required to use that active ability. No more shuffle on heavy armor, in fact, major evasion in heavy armor probably shouldn't be allowed at all.
- Remove the resource sustain from rapid mending, in what world does it make sense to wield a two handed massive weapon in FULL heavy armor and actually replenish your resources at an increased rate? If you were worried about pve tanks not sustaining as well, don't - they sustain perfectly fine in dungeons, and the ones that don't, need to work on their builds a bit.

If you want to see more balanced pvp gameplay in ESO, you really need to look into this heavy armor meta, it will only get worse in time.

Oh and btw since I'm here, get rid of those proc sets, no one asked for them, no one competent likes them, having your armor do damage for you is incredibly stupid. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to miss the good old 1.5 pvp days too.

Have a good day.

In what world do you live in that you think Heavy has more sustain then Medium and more damage?

In a world where more experienced players than you play.

You wanna compare knowledge of the game with me?

Let's put out the simple facts for you mate.

Currently the two classes that are going to utilize heavy armor in PVP are dragon knights and Templars.

Dragon knights will utilize it because they get bloody stamina/magicka back from using ultimates and stamina back from casting earthen heart line. This is the only reason they generally are able to run something like 5 heavy. That magicka version of it simply runs it because it relies heavily on dots and blocking as they don't have freakin cloak or hardened ward to pick up the slack.

What about Templars? You can get away with using 5 heavy on a stamina Templar but since the resource nerf it's simply not viable hence why most of them you see will run something like 2 heavy with 5 medium to take advantage of ravager. Again they're rolling around in 5 medium for a reason. Magicka Templars esp healers will roll around in heavy armor but they're running heavy sustain through their skills and not heavy armor itself.

You don't see sorcs nor nightblades generally run heavy armor. They have zero need to; so when you say something like the heavy armor meta... I laugh at the sheer stupidity of it because the two most played pvp classes don't run heavy armor.

So step the hell off chump change.

Solariken wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Heavy armor is grossly overpowered compared to medium. It sustains just as good thanks to the rapid mending resource bonus, it has access to shuffle like medium and it can provide you with a bunch of damage thanks to an array of offensive heavy armor sets.

Fighting some of these characters becomes impossible when they're dealing more damage than you, sustain better by abusing a resource mechanic and can take 3 times more punishment before going down.

If anyone over there cares about PVP balance, I propose the following;

- Consider tuning down offensive heavy armor sets, there should be no reason for me to run heavy armor and have more damage overall than in medium.
- Restrict armor actives to their armor tree, 5+ pieces required to use that active ability. No more shuffle on heavy armor, in fact, major evasion in heavy armor probably shouldn't be allowed at all.
- Remove the resource sustain from rapid mending, in what world does it make sense to wield a two handed massive weapon in FULL heavy armor and actually replenish your resources at an increased rate? If you were worried about pve tanks not sustaining as well, don't - they sustain perfectly fine in dungeons, and the ones that don't, need to work on their builds a bit.

If you want to see more balanced pvp gameplay in ESO, you really need to look into this heavy armor meta, it will only get worse in time.

Oh and btw since I'm here, get rid of those proc sets, no one asked for them, no one competent likes them, having your armor do damage for you is incredibly stupid. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to miss the good old 1.5 pvp days too.

Have a good day.

In what world do you live in that you think Heavy has more sustain then Medium and more damage?

See Ravager, Seventh Legion, et al.

See above.

No, I don't want to compare knowledge with you, I want to compare experience which you obviously do not have. Players like you can go around throwing numbers left and right, but as soon as they fail to demonstrate any practical experience in terms of theorycrafting or gameplay, it stops being relevant in my opinion.

Let me educate you a bit. I've played medium and heavy on all classes except Warden and I can confirm from experience that in a fight between two equally skilled (and geared) opponents, heavy is going to win every single time no discussion about it which is something that doesn't (and shouldn't) make sense at all from a logical perspective.

If you don't want to listen to me, listen to some other players who's opinions I respect and value, having seen them play the game and be very successful at it.

@Ragnaroek93 @Murador178 @Blobsky @Dillpat @Aelakhaii_De_Mythos @Derra @DeHei and more but this will do.

kaithuzar wrote: »

Heavy armor isn't exactly giving you a ton of damage, nor is it giving a ton of sustain like black rose use to. IMO I feel like what the OP is frustrated with is that his opponents can create a clever alchemist build with heavy armor & wreck him within that small potion duration.

Nice try, but wrong on so many levels.

Heavy does give you more damage as demonstrated in a few examples above, mage doesn't 'get rekt' by clever alchemist (not that I can recall at least), mage simply notices the imbalance of heavy vs medium and thinks it's *** because mage also wants to play a rogue character in pvp like decimus but is forced into heavy armor every single time and he thinks this is wrong and unfair to many players that ARE running such builds in PVP and are getting packed left and right in medium because they simply cannot compete, with a play style they do not enjoy playing themselves (thank you Decimus, very well put).

So next time you show up to speculate as to why someone is opening a thread about anything, perhaps you should ask before putting out ridiculous conclusions.

As for alchemist, that set is not even that good compared to ravager, seventh and even fury. We're talking Cyrodiil here of course, in 1v1 it can be very strong but still nothing better than the previous ones.

Rofl, I play every single Stamina/Magicka class in the game currently; I can back up everything I say with a youtube page of my doing exactly that. I've played Stamina DK before you ever even thought it was an idea.... But lets focus on you; since you seem to be incapable of expanding on your thoughts.

I told you exactly what classes will run what; and your own Build page will back me up on it

http://www.legendarymage.com/eso-builds-stamina-templar-pvp-dps-build-morrowind-elder-scrolls-online/#.WZjdSlMrLcs

This is your Stamina Templar pvp build; If Heavy armor is so overpowered...Why aren't you running full heavy mate?

Why is your Sorc not running Full Heavy?

Why is your stamina DK not running full heavy

http://www.legendarymage.com/eso-builds-stamina-dragonknight-pvp-dps-build-morrowind-elder-scrolls-online/#.WZjdllMrLcs

But hey, maybe you only run medium because you like hard mode *grin*

Xsorus

DeHei wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Heavy armor is grossly overpowered compared to medium. It sustains just as good thanks to the rapid mending resource bonus, it has access to shuffle like medium and it can provide you with a bunch of damage thanks to an array of offensive heavy armor sets.

Fighting some of these characters becomes impossible when they're dealing more damage than you, sustain better by abusing a resource mechanic and can take 3 times more punishment before going down.

If anyone over there cares about PVP balance, I propose the following;

- Consider tuning down offensive heavy armor sets, there should be no reason for me to run heavy armor and have more damage overall than in medium.
- Restrict armor actives to their armor tree, 5+ pieces required to use that active ability. No more shuffle on heavy armor, in fact, major evasion in heavy armor probably shouldn't be allowed at all.
- Remove the resource sustain from rapid mending, in what world does it make sense to wield a two handed massive weapon in FULL heavy armor and actually replenish your resources at an increased rate? If you were worried about pve tanks not sustaining as well, don't - they sustain perfectly fine in dungeons, and the ones that don't, need to work on their builds a bit.

If you want to see more balanced pvp gameplay in ESO, you really need to look into this heavy armor meta, it will only get worse in time.

Oh and btw since I'm here, get rid of those proc sets, no one asked for them, no one competent likes them, having your armor do damage for you is incredibly stupid. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to miss the good old 1.5 pvp days too.

Have a good day.

In what world do you live in that you think Heavy has more sustain then Medium and more damage?

In a world where more experienced players than you play.

You wanna compare knowledge of the game with me?

Let's put out the simple facts for you mate.

Currently the two classes that are going to utilize heavy armor in PVP are dragon knights and Templars.

Dragon knights will utilize it because they get bloody stamina/magicka back from using ultimates and stamina back from casting earthen heart line. This is the only reason they generally are able to run something like 5 heavy. That magicka version of it simply runs it because it relies heavily on dots and blocking as they don't have freakin cloak or hardened ward to pick up the slack.

What about Templars? You can get away with using 5 heavy on a stamina Templar but since the resource nerf it's simply not viable hence why most of them you see will run something like 2 heavy with 5 medium to take advantage of ravager. Again they're rolling around in 5 medium for a reason. Magicka Templars esp healers will roll around in heavy armor but they're running heavy sustain through their skills and not heavy armor itself.

You don't see sorcs nor nightblades generally run heavy armor. They have zero need to; so when you say something like the heavy armor meta... I laugh at the sheer stupidity of it because the two most played pvp classes don't run heavy armor.

So step the hell off chump change.

Solariken wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Heavy armor is grossly overpowered compared to medium. It sustains just as good thanks to the rapid mending resource bonus, it has access to shuffle like medium and it can provide you with a bunch of damage thanks to an array of offensive heavy armor sets.

Fighting some of these characters becomes impossible when they're dealing more damage than you, sustain better by abusing a resource mechanic and can take 3 times more punishment before going down.

If anyone over there cares about PVP balance, I propose the following;

- Consider tuning down offensive heavy armor sets, there should be no reason for me to run heavy armor and have more damage overall than in medium.
- Restrict armor actives to their armor tree, 5+ pieces required to use that active ability. No more shuffle on heavy armor, in fact, major evasion in heavy armor probably shouldn't be allowed at all.
- Remove the resource sustain from rapid mending, in what world does it make sense to wield a two handed massive weapon in FULL heavy armor and actually replenish your resources at an increased rate? If you were worried about pve tanks not sustaining as well, don't - they sustain perfectly fine in dungeons, and the ones that don't, need to work on their builds a bit.

If you want to see more balanced pvp gameplay in ESO, you really need to look into this heavy armor meta, it will only get worse in time.

Oh and btw since I'm here, get rid of those proc sets, no one asked for them, no one competent likes them, having your armor do damage for you is incredibly stupid. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to miss the good old 1.5 pvp days too.

Have a good day.

In what world do you live in that you think Heavy has more sustain then Medium and more damage?

See Ravager, Seventh Legion, et al.

See above.

Nearly all staminaguys, who play very successful in PvP, wear heavy armor. Only nightblades can compensate the less damage mitigation from medium armor with cloak. In PvE its not a problem.. there its all fine.

Against me or other is wearing medium armor for a duell something like suicid! Heavy armor is stronger for passiva and in sets you can choose.

For magickaplayer you can go more damage like me with light armor. If you want to stay tankier is heavy armor also a solution.
BUT not only templar and DKs can successful use it. Its just wrong. If you want a meleerangebuild you should only prefer heavy armor, but others are possible too.

Only medium armor get too much damage in fight and should get buffed for damage mitigation or something, what makes it more optional like light armor for magickaplayer.

Point out all the non DK's currently running in Heavy Armor in PVP that are successful. By all means link them...

Go on, i'll wait.

You don't see them. There is a reason for this....It was common before the cost reduction patch; but even ZOS's own numbers pointed out it simply wasn't the most used setup..

Xsorus

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

-Try blocking their heavy attack and hit them with cost increases, root them is often as possible
-I agree with shuffle restrictions. But I am not a fan of its rng as is

There's no blocking heavy attack spam, stamina drain is huge nowadays. The mechanic looks 'nice' on paper but is utterly abused in practice where you do 1-2 skills into a heavy attack (get that stamina back), 1-2 skills into another heavy attack until you wear your opponent down.

I tested with my stamina templar in med and heavy. There is no comparison, heavy is just 3 times better and it doesn't make any sense since heavy should be for tanking and absorbing damage, not dps.

In fact, if you want to sustain well in heavy, you build around rapid mending stam return. Bump it up another 10% in the cps, now you got 35% more resources on heavy attacks and you're rivaling medium sustain easily, plus heavy attacks deal some damage too, it's not like they're completely useless.

Are you not heavy attacking too? Also, dodge 1 heavy and back out of the other and you have severely hit thier sustain.

Get off the "heavy is for tanking " mindset. If you can't fight someone in heavy you're either not exploiting weaknesses, not using your tools, or are built in a way that you can't fight against heavy armor. All 3 are l2p issues that are easy to overcome.

I actually seek out heavy armor users on one of my medium builds bc it is most effective vs them.

Heavy bow, psn injection, gap closer, light attack, spammable, ultimate execute. Practice that and you'll start doing better too.

Medium needs a very slight buff, should be tied to self preservation. Like, 2/4 % damage reduction after a dodge roll for x seconds.

Sorry bud but I don't think I need fighting lessons from you, even though your intentions are good.

But I think you do; you seem to be having trouble with Heavy Attacks which don't return resources if you block or dodge them.

Again, you very own web page links your builds; and I quote

"Medium armor stamina templar pvp build is back, with a lot of damage and mobility, updated for the Morrowind patch. Very fun to play in both big battles and groups, but it works very good in duels too."

Xsorus

NBrookus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Currently the two classes that are going to utilize heavy armor in PVP are dragon knights and Templars.

Most mDKs have gone to light and magplars seem to be moving in that direction as well. With sets like impregnable and wizard's riposte, the extra mitigation from heavy isn't nearly as attractive as it was compared to extra penetration and cost reduction.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of MDK's in Light now a days; But Magplars for example i run 5 light myself.

I see zero reason to run something like Heavy on a Magicka Nightblade with wizards/trans being so common.

Even look at my Medium armor stamina sorc; there is zero reason for me to run heavy. I'll take Mobility any day of the week over some extra resist in PvP.

LegendaryMage

@Xsorus stop spamming the thread with your nonsense please.

edorfeus

Are you guys crazy or something? I've used various heavy sets mentioned above for Cyrodil pvp. You may bee right about heavy being good in duels, but in open world PVP it's not as much good as you all say at all. Sustain isn't as good as you say, not nearly. After morrowind there's nearly no sustain on stam if you're not readguard.
Damage bonus from wrath passive? You kidding? You get into 1vx situation, you're down in no time, especially when there's 2 or more templars on you, not to mention NBs. You won't even have time to CC break before you die from ambush/jabs/jesusbeam spam, which means you won't event live long enough to get to full wrath stacks. You can block, yes, but then your stam is down in no time as well, and then you're just dead meat for them anyway. You guys should go and try this all on practice, not just blablablabing about passives theoretically.

Brutusmax1mus

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

-Try blocking their heavy attack and hit them with cost increases, root them is often as possible
-I agree with shuffle restrictions. But I am not a fan of its rng as is

There's no blocking heavy attack spam, stamina drain is huge nowadays. The mechanic looks 'nice' on paper but is utterly abused in practice where you do 1-2 skills into a heavy attack (get that stamina back), 1-2 skills into another heavy attack until you wear your opponent down.

I tested with my stamina templar in med and heavy. There is no comparison, heavy is just 3 times better and it doesn't make any sense since heavy should be for tanking and absorbing damage, not dps.

In fact, if you want to sustain well in heavy, you build around rapid mending stam return. Bump it up another 10% in the cps, now you got 35% more resources on heavy attacks and you're rivaling medium sustain easily, plus heavy attacks deal some damage too, it's not like they're completely useless.

Are you not heavy attacking too? Also, dodge 1 heavy and back out of the other and you have severely hit thier sustain.

Get off the "heavy is for tanking " mindset. If you can't fight someone in heavy you're either not exploiting weaknesses, not using your tools, or are built in a way that you can't fight against heavy armor. All 3 are l2p issues that are easy to overcome.

I actually seek out heavy armor users on one of my medium builds bc it is most effective vs them.

Heavy bow, psn injection, gap closer, light attack, spammable, ultimate execute. Practice that and you'll start doing better too.

Medium needs a very slight buff, should be tied to self preservation. Like, 2/4 % damage reduction after a dodge roll for x seconds.

Sorry bud but I don't think I need fighting lessons from you, even though your intentions are good.

Just trying to help. My stamplar wears bone pirate, spriggans, blood spawn. I'm only having issues vs certain players, not Any 1 build.

nCats

edorfeus wrote: »

Are you guys crazy or something? I've used various heavy sets mentioned above for Cyrodil pvp. You may bee right about heavy being good in duels, but in open world PVP it's not as much good as you all say at all. Sustain isn't as good as you say, not nearly. After morrowind there's nearly no sustain on stam if you're not readguard.
Damage bonus from wrath passive? You kidding? You get into 1vx situation, you're down in no time, especially when there's 2 or more templars on you, not to mention NBs. You won't even have time to CC break before you die from ambush/jabs/jesusbeam spam, which means you won't event live long enough to get to full wrath stacks. You can block, yes, but then your stam is down in no time as well, and then you're just dead meat for them anyway. You guys should go and try this all on practice, not just blablablabing about passives theoretically.

Yes that's how I feel roughly speaking. Heavy is good in duels, and that's how it feels for me it should be. But if you are playing a mobile character in heavy, wrath is then useless and resources are lower than in medium (you are not constantly proccing constitution, and the costs are much higher). Which is why I'd be interested in seeing 3 heavy 3 medium armor set category: I switch from med to heavy and vice versa, since I play a 2h/bow stamdk. Safe a few exceptions, you're damned in either of those setups open world, and you have to sacrifice in either.

Given everyone mentions Fury and Ravager, the solution seems to be toning down those sets a little bit like with BSW. I would also attempt to give the med armour the light armor treatment, that is +penetration instead of +damage, as it is actually much more powerful especially after the whole pen nerf.

To the OP: disregarding the fact that I don't agree with what you're offering, it does not seem useful to offer changes and write posts with words like ``it is stupid'' etc, to be honest. The devs have enough aggressive bashing to ignore one more such post. And my problem with PC EU is zerging and the dishonourable attitudes of folks there, which is to be fair can be regulated by the community itself.

NBrookus

Xsorus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Currently the two classes that are going to utilize heavy armor in PVP are dragon knights and Templars.

Most mDKs have gone to light and magplars seem to be moving in that direction as well. With sets like impregnable and wizard's riposte, the extra mitigation from heavy isn't nearly as attractive as it was compared to extra penetration and cost reduction.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of MDK's in Light now a days; But Magplars for example i run 5 light myself.

The mag DKs I all talk to are either running light, or planning to when they next update their build. But then tend to invest heavily in block cost reduction... because we're still low mobility. Post-fight whisper chats most people tend assume I'm I heavy, when I'm actually not. If you are EU the culture may be different?

I agree with @Joy_Division that this firstly is an itemization problem with sets like Fury and Seventh Legion, particularly on stamDK. The wrath passive doesn't help.

Xsorus

NBrookus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Currently the two classes that are going to utilize heavy armor in PVP are dragon knights and Templars.

Most mDKs have gone to light and magplars seem to be moving in that direction as well. With sets like impregnable and wizard's riposte, the extra mitigation from heavy isn't nearly as attractive as it was compared to extra penetration and cost reduction.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of MDK's in Light now a days; But Magplars for example i run 5 light myself.

The mag DKs I all talk to are either running light, or planning to when they next update their build. But then tend to invest heavily in block cost reduction... because we're still low mobility. Post-fight whisper chats most people tend assume I'm I heavy, when I'm actually not. If you are EU the culture may be different?

I agree with @Joy_Division that this firstly is an itemization problem with sets like Fury and Seventh Legion, particularly on stamDK. The wrath passive doesn't help.

It's possible; I mean I run light on my Templar so I could see some burning/wizard combos on them I guess. DKs in general always feel like a stand your ground type class so things like fury and seventh fit well with them. That's their niche in that regard, they're not teleporting away or cloaking away constantly but taking a beating and growing stronger as they go.

Warden kinda stepping in their department though with their ult so who knows.

DeHei

Xsorus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Currently the two classes that are going to utilize heavy armor in PVP are dragon knights and Templars.

Most mDKs have gone to light and magplars seem to be moving in that direction as well. With sets like impregnable and wizard's riposte, the extra mitigation from heavy isn't nearly as attractive as it was compared to extra penetration and cost reduction.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of MDK's in Light now a days; But Magplars for example i run 5 light myself.

The mag DKs I all talk to are either running light, or planning to when they next update their build. But then tend to invest heavily in block cost reduction... because we're still low mobility. Post-fight whisper chats most people tend assume I'm I heavy, when I'm actually not. If you are EU the culture may be different?

I agree with @Joy_Division that this firstly is an itemization problem with sets like Fury and Seventh Legion, particularly on stamDK. The wrath passive doesn't help.

It's possible; I mean I run light on my Templar so I could see some burning/wizard combos on them I guess. DKs in general always feel like a stand your ground type class so things like fury and seventh fit well with them. That's their niche in that regard, they're not teleporting away or cloaking away constantly but taking a beating and growing stronger as they go.

Warden kinda stepping in their department though with their ult so who knows.

I give you an update how wizard work actually. This 15% are much lesser because of addictive damage reduction effects. We have 50% less damage in PvP. Then damage mitigation with resistances and some other effects. If we think about 20k resistances and maybe only 5k penetration, we reduce the damage again more. Maybe a target get only 25% of the damage, you 15% effect on the enemy will only give a 3,25% damage reduction in total to you.. its maybe possible to feel that, but i think its not possible.

Other options like dodge give allways 15% dodgechance and this effect is much better with the knowledge you got now. Sure there are many skills and attacks now, which hit allways, but you will feel 15% dodge nearly 400% higher then this effect from wizard reposte!

Xsorus

DeHei wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Currently the two classes that are going to utilize heavy armor in PVP are dragon knights and Templars.

Most mDKs have gone to light and magplars seem to be moving in that direction as well. With sets like impregnable and wizard's riposte, the extra mitigation from heavy isn't nearly as attractive as it was compared to extra penetration and cost reduction.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of MDK's in Light now a days; But Magplars for example i run 5 light myself.

The mag DKs I all talk to are either running light, or planning to when they next update their build. But then tend to invest heavily in block cost reduction... because we're still low mobility. Post-fight whisper chats most people tend assume I'm I heavy, when I'm actually not. If you are EU the culture may be different?

I agree with @Joy_Division that this firstly is an itemization problem with sets like Fury and Seventh Legion, particularly on stamDK. The wrath passive doesn't help.

It's possible; I mean I run light on my Templar so I could see some burning/wizard combos on them I guess. DKs in general always feel like a stand your ground type class so things like fury and seventh fit well with them. That's their niche in that regard, they're not teleporting away or cloaking away constantly but taking a beating and growing stronger as they go.

Warden kinda stepping in their department though with their ult so who knows.

I give you an update how wizard work actually. This 15% are much lesser because of addictive damage reduction effects. We have 50% less damage in PvP. Then damage mitigation with resistances and some other effects. If we think about 20k resistances and maybe only 5k penetration, we reduce the damage again more. Maybe a target get only 25% of the damage, you 15% effect on the enemy will only give a 3,25% damage reduction in total to you.. its maybe possible to feel that, but i think its not possible.

Other options like dodge give allways 15% dodgechance and this effect is much better with the knowledge you got now. Sure there are many skills and attacks now, which hit allways, but you will feel 15% dodge nearly 400% higher then this effect from wizard reposte!

I run Wizards on my Templar, its noticable when you run full light armor it seems. When you combine it with something like transmutation its really tanky even in light.

I've not tried Wizards with Heavy yet so can't tell ya how that works. I do know Impregnable on Stamina Medium armor is pretty silly in terms of taking damage.

Cyrediath

You guys keep saying heavy armor op but if zos nerf heavy even a bit heavy magicka builds will be dead. no sustain. no resource from heavy attack etc.. constitiuon giving 500 mag stamina every 4 seconds. ewuals 125 per second. its nothing...

DDuke

Cyrediath wrote: »

You guys keep saying heavy armor op but if zos nerf heavy even a bit heavy magicka builds will be dead. no sustain. no resource from heavy attack etc.. constitiuon giving 500 mag stamina every 4 seconds. ewuals 125 per second. its nothing...

I think people forget that heavy armor magicka builds were perfectly viable before ZOS even buffed heavy armor.
I bet I could still make a top tier magicka templar with heavy armor if that still interested me.

A lot of people underestimate the power of mitigation, especially when combined with strong heals (Rapid Mending passive helps a lot).

Also, Constitution is 540 magicka/stamina every 4 seconds with 5 heavy armor pieces - this equals to 270 magicka and stamina regen.

In order to get the equal of 270 magicka/stamina regen from Windwalker/Recovery medium/light passives (with 5 medium or 5 light pieces for comparison's sake), you'd need to have 1350 base stamina regen.

This means atleast 2x regen bonuses from gear and regen food/drink - so you're already giving up damage just to get even with one half of the "regen".


So no, Constitution is not "nothing", Constitution is insane when you put things into perspective and compare it to other armor types.

Brutusmax1mus

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

You guys keep saying heavy armor op but if zos nerf heavy even a bit heavy magicka builds will be dead. no sustain. no resource from heavy attack etc.. constitiuon giving 500 mag stamina every 4 seconds. ewuals 125 per second. its nothing...

I think people forget that heavy armor magicka builds were perfectly viable before ZOS even buffed heavy armor.
I bet I could still make a top tier magicka templar with heavy armor if that still interested me.

A lot of people underestimate the power of mitigation, especially when combined with strong heals (Rapid Mending passive helps a lot).

Also, Constitution is 540 magicka/stamina every 4 seconds with 5 heavy armor pieces - this equals to 270 magicka and stamina regen.

In order to get the equal of 270 magicka/stamina regen from Windwalker/Recovery medium/light passives (with 5 medium or 5 light pieces for comparison's sake), you'd need to have 1350 base stamina regen.

This means atleast 2x regen bonuses from gear and regen food/drink - so you're already giving up damage just to get even with one half of the "regen".


So no, Constitution is not "nothing", Constitution is insane when you put things into perspective and compare it to other armor types.

Exactly, also constitution is not effected by siphoner cp.

Mineria

DDuke wrote: »

Oh, I don't think anyone harbors any ideas about playing a "bow wizard", that isn't really a standard in any (MMO)RPG I'm aware of (do let me know if there's a "bow wizard" as a class/archetype in any - I'm genuinely intrigued now lol)

I think the D&D universe had them for quite some time, also why you can play as Arcane Archer in DDO.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Why do some people insist in lies? No, HA doesn't give you neither more damage nor more sustain than the other two options.
Just by the fact you people feel you have to LIE in order to try to make your point is already a hint for ZOS not to listen to you.

It's not a lie true heavy attacks don't do more damage in heavy armor. But heavy armor let's you heavy attack more (taking less damage while channeling the attack.
Heavy Attacks do return more resources with Rapid Mending 25% bonus to resource return it's impossible to say heavy attack is not better with heavy armor.

Even without Constitution which will proc when you are hit channeling your heavy attack that gives more resources back. You can still hit high recovery on Heavy easy so you can have nearly the same recovery with more resistance and more effective heavy attacks.