PVP - Any plans on balancing heavy armor finally?

Chilly-McFreeze

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

You guys keep saying heavy armor op but if zos nerf heavy even a bit heavy magicka builds will be dead. no sustain. no resource from heavy attack etc.. constitiuon giving 500 mag stamina every 4 seconds. ewuals 125 per second. its nothing...

I think people forget that heavy armor magicka builds were perfectly viable before ZOS even buffed heavy armor.
I bet I could still make a top tier magicka templar with heavy armor if that still interested me.

A lot of people underestimate the power of mitigation, especially when combined with strong heals (Rapid Mending passive helps a lot).

Also, Constitution is 540 magicka/stamina every 4 seconds with 5 heavy armor pieces - this equals to 270 magicka and stamina regen.

In order to get the equal of 270 magicka/stamina regen from Windwalker/Recovery medium/light passives (with 5 medium or 5 light pieces for comparison's sake), you'd need to have 1350 base stamina regen.

This means atleast 2x regen bonuses from gear and regen food/drink - so you're already giving up damage just to get even with one half of the "regen".


So no, Constitution is not "nothing", Constitution is insane when you put things into perspective and compare it to other armor types.

So the issue of this thread now isn't the "horrendious op" damage bonus from wrath anymore but the resource return and the mitigation? What exactly should heavy armor do? I always read opinions like "it should outlast but deal less damage". And that is what it does. Wrath pales in comparison to LA penetration + crit and to MA weapon dmg boost + crit.

HA does not even grant cost reduction. But it "outlasts" via resource return + mitigation.

Just some numbers on mitigation, legendary level. Only the armor passives activated, no additional set boni or whatsoever. Numbers taken from UESP build editor.

7 Light: 10.042 spell (15%) 7.501 phys (11%)
5 L/ 1M/ 1H: 11.656 spell (18%) 9.841 phys (15%) (chest heavy, legs medium)

7 Medium: 11.199 in both (17%)
5/1/1: 12.354 spell (19%), 11.991 phys (18%) (chest heavy, waist light)

7 Heavy: 17.431 in both (26%)
5/1/1: 16.210 spell (24%), 15.847 phys (24%) (hand medium, waist light)

So, assuming one runs 5/1/1, the difference between 5 light and 5 heavy is 4554 spell resistance and 6.006 physical resistance. But that all doesn't matter when light armors main defense is up: magickal wards. No resistances get taken into account, be it physical, spell or critical. Problem here is that wards tend to drop at critical moments.

Between 5/1/1 medium and heavy lies 3856 spell and physical resistance. But also 20% dodge roll costs. Having in mind that a dodge roll completely negates 100% damage and effects from dodged skills it's more usefull than 5-6% mitigation. Obvious issue here is that some devs thought it would be a good idea to have increasing numbers of hardcounters to dodge rolling.

Since you sacrifice 20-28% recovery, 10-14% cost reduction, 2191 spell crit chance or 1640-2.296 phys crit chance, , 4884 penetration or 12% weapon dmg + 20-24% dodge roll cost decrease + 15-21% sprint speed when chosing heavy over light / medium I think it's fair to have 5-15% more mitigation, 8% better healing and unshrinkable resource return.

I think it's rather clear that the devs headed into "outlasting" with heavy and damage with the others. So again, problem are not the passives but the sets. At least it seems so when you look at ravager, 7th legion and so on. They fill the hole the passives intentionaly left - damage.
But strangely enough this argument gets not taken into account when talking about defensive light armor sets like wizards reposte etc. that fills the hole in LA passives - dmg reduction.

Mojomonkeyman

I think the pvp modes (cyro, bg, dueling) have become too different to go with easy solutions.

I play only BGs atm and heavy is for sure not overperforming in that setting. I'd say it even is close to being a liability for everything but a few niche setups in BGs. Honestly, couldnt tell you a single heavy armor build out of my head that I consider dangerous in BGs (even impreg sturdy DKs are better off in light). The odd annoying heavy heal templar you will meet, but you can kill them rather easy (compared to cp cyro) and those aren't the builds you guys complain about.

From what I'm hearing and reading most of the complaints about heavy these days come from the duelist corner of pvp, and some forever medium armor enthusiasts. As much as I can sympathize with wanting to have a viable chance of taking a direct fight med vs heavy, I wouldn't welcome any change that makes heavy armor less desirable other environments than it already is.

I think armor balance is really good in battlegrounds, with heavy armor even being the first candidate for a buff.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

@tplink3r1 where are the lies? I have 5k weapon damage, 30k resists with bloodspawn proc, 2.1k stam recovery and 37k max stam on my HEAVY stamblade. Give me ONE medium armor setup that can achieve that.
Edit: oh yeah 28k health as well.

If you are absolutely clueless about the matter at hand please gtfo, you obviously are not playing in a tier high enough to be able to have any say in things like these.

Why do i have to show you a build with X resist? I attacked these two lies, not the fact you can have high resistance with HA.

''Fighting some of these characters becomes impossible when they're dealing more damage than you, sustain better by abusing a resource mechanic"

Just stop and admit you were wrong or lying. I won't waste more time with dishonest people.

You should put a build with that fight resistance and health cause you make medium builds with damage and stamina just a high but you would be a glass cannon. With the extra health and resistance you're a reinforced steel cannon.

So many here don't know how to play heavy so they are saying it's lies. You can't play your mDK in heavy the same as you did in light but you can play it with better results. If you go from medium DPS to Heavy armor DPS heavy attacks will need to be used more and you don't really need to block and roll as much.

Just cause you didn't change up your fighting style doesn't mean you can't outperform in heavy armor it just mean you changed but did not adjust.

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos

Tbh i am not a competent player anymore but i can say this much atleast:

There are pve, cyro, 1v1, "smallscale," bg - cp and non cp variants. How can zos EVER manage to balance sets, armor types, class skills, poisons etc in this type of environment?

Zos made this themselves, it has gone 3 years now... It will never be even remotely balanced cause the environment is just too varying.


I dont mean to sound all negative here but... you know... i really look at the issue this way.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

I run MA. I think heavy is fine. Things I would like to see change would be this:

Armor specific abilities will only work if you are wearing at least 5 pieces of that armor type.

Medium armor depends a lot of dodge rolling to avoid damage. As many have said, more and more we see powerful AoEs being used and dodging isn't up to par. I say dodge should dodge a single target attack completely like it currently does, and offer 50% damage reduction if dodging an AoE attack. You still take some damage but not the full force of it. Medium armor fixed.

A little more on the wild side, with 5 or more pieces of medium armor there is a 15% chance to not get dodge roll fatigue after a dodge roll....that could replace wind walkers current form.

pieratsos

Xsorus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Currently the two classes that are going to utilize heavy armor in PVP are dragon knights and Templars.

Most mDKs have gone to light and magplars seem to be moving in that direction as well. With sets like impregnable and wizard's riposte, the extra mitigation from heavy isn't nearly as attractive as it was compared to extra penetration and cost reduction.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of MDK's in Light now a days; But Magplars for example i run 5 light myself.

I see zero reason to run something like Heavy on a Magicka Nightblade with wizards/trans being so common.

Even look at my Medium armor stamina sorc; there is zero reason for me to run heavy. I'll take Mobility any day of the week over some extra resist in PvP.

Its funny cause ur medium armor stamsorc is closer to the heavy playstyle than medium. Snb, very tanky with impreg, block capabilities, low regen for the standards of medium armor, relatively high hp, no streak, relying on procs to deal dmg. And definitely not mobile. You dont even have major expedition.

Sorry but when someone looks at the video of ur sorc, wonders why you are in medium armor and not in heavy. Not the other way around. You are playing a worse version of what fengrush ran in the beginning of morrowind (heavy armor) in terms of playstyle and sets. Same dmg, same sustain. The only difference is that he was way way more tanky, and probably even more mobile with streak.

The whole point of people talking about the viability of medium armor here is to play like an actual medium armor build. Not a heavy armor build in medium. When you bring ur stamsorc as an example then you've essentially lost the debate cause you are doing exactly that.

Xsorus

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Currently the two classes that are going to utilize heavy armor in PVP are dragon knights and Templars.

Most mDKs have gone to light and magplars seem to be moving in that direction as well. With sets like impregnable and wizard's riposte, the extra mitigation from heavy isn't nearly as attractive as it was compared to extra penetration and cost reduction.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of MDK's in Light now a days; But Magplars for example i run 5 light myself.

I see zero reason to run something like Heavy on a Magicka Nightblade with wizards/trans being so common.

Even look at my Medium armor stamina sorc; there is zero reason for me to run heavy. I'll take Mobility any day of the week over some extra resist in PvP.

Its funny cause ur medium armor stamsorc is closer to the heavy playstyle than medium. Snb, very tanky with impreg, block capabilities, low regen for the standards of medium armor, relatively high hp, no streak, relying on procs to deal dmg. And definitely not mobile. You dont even have major expedition.

Sorry but when someone looks at the video of ur sorc, wonders why you are in medium armor and not in heavy. Not the other way around. You are playing a worse version of what fengrush ran in the beginning of morrowind in terms of playstyle and sets. Same dmg, same sustain. The only difference is that he was way way more tanky, and probably even more mobile with streak.

The whole point of people talking about the viability of medium armor here is to play like an actual medium armor build. Not a heavy armor build in medium. When you bring ur stamsorc as an example then you've essentially lost the debate cause you are doing exactly that.

I'm playing a stam sorc who's an orc in full well fitted medium armor and you think I'm not mobile? I mean if I need speed I'll pop one of my speed pots but I don't need it usually. I would run bolt escape but I don't have the bloody room on my bar to do it. I was thinking of trying overload and running it on a bar like that but until I need it I'm not sure.

Also since the nerf to viper one of the sets I'm looking at is coward set.

Anyway saying that setup isn't mobile is simply false.

Also i rarely block with the setup. I do it when I eat something that's undodgable but it's a dodge setup not a block setup.

I would also never choose heavy over the setup I'm currently running as it's way way better then 5 heavy.

I'm simply running a build similar to what I ran on my stamina dk from the beginning of the game, 1hd shield and full medium.

Emma_Overload

If they truly want "balance" heavy armor, they sould give 8% increased damage shield size in addition to the 8% increased healing received. That way Sorcs could enjoy at least SOME synergy.

Drakkdjinn

What? This thread is still going on?

It's obvious: Heavy is fine; buff medium. Lets not overthink it y'all.

/thread

pieratsos

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Currently the two classes that are going to utilize heavy armor in PVP are dragon knights and Templars.

Most mDKs have gone to light and magplars seem to be moving in that direction as well. With sets like impregnable and wizard's riposte, the extra mitigation from heavy isn't nearly as attractive as it was compared to extra penetration and cost reduction.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of MDK's in Light now a days; But Magplars for example i run 5 light myself.

I see zero reason to run something like Heavy on a Magicka Nightblade with wizards/trans being so common.

Even look at my Medium armor stamina sorc; there is zero reason for me to run heavy. I'll take Mobility any day of the week over some extra resist in PvP.

Its funny cause ur medium armor stamsorc is closer to the heavy playstyle than medium. Snb, very tanky with impreg, block capabilities, low regen for the standards of medium armor, relatively high hp, no streak, relying on procs to deal dmg. And definitely not mobile. You dont even have major expedition.

Sorry but when someone looks at the video of ur sorc, wonders why you are in medium armor and not in heavy. Not the other way around. You are playing a worse version of what fengrush ran in the beginning of morrowind in terms of playstyle and sets. Same dmg, same sustain. The only difference is that he was way way more tanky, and probably even more mobile with streak.

The whole point of people talking about the viability of medium armor here is to play like an actual medium armor build. Not a heavy armor build in medium. When you bring ur stamsorc as an example then you've essentially lost the debate cause you are doing exactly that.

I'm playing a stam sorc who's an orc in full well fitted medium armor and you think I'm not mobile? I mean if I need speed I'll pop one of my speed pots but I don't need it usually. I would run bolt escape but I don't have the bloody room on my bar to do it. I was thinking of trying overload and running it on a bar like that but until I need it I'm not sure.

Also since the nerf to viper one of the sets I'm looking at is coward set.

Anyway saying that setup isn't mobile is simply false.

Also i rarely block with the setup. I do it when I eat something that's undodgable but it's a dodge setup not a block setup.

I would also never choose heavy over the setup I'm currently running as it's way way better then 5 heavy.

I'm simply running a build similar to what I ran on my stamina dk from the beginning of the game, 1hd shield and full medium.

Im not bashing ur build or anything like that. Im just telling you what ur video shows. You are not playing an actual medium armor build. Its a heavy armor proc build in medium. Your setup can be mobile. But for the standards of stam sorcs is not. When you hear orc medium armor stamsorc the first thing that comes to ur mind is the fastest build in the game. Not a snb, tanky build spamming ransack and completely relying on procs to kill people. That essentially beats the whole purpose of medium armor.

And yes heavy would work better. Your regen isnt high, ur crit is wasted cause you are just using procs and u are not taking advantage of the mobility of ur class or the medium armor passives. Heavy would just be better.

Xsorus

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Currently the two classes that are going to utilize heavy armor in PVP are dragon knights and Templars.

Most mDKs have gone to light and magplars seem to be moving in that direction as well. With sets like impregnable and wizard's riposte, the extra mitigation from heavy isn't nearly as attractive as it was compared to extra penetration and cost reduction.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of MDK's in Light now a days; But Magplars for example i run 5 light myself.

I see zero reason to run something like Heavy on a Magicka Nightblade with wizards/trans being so common.

Even look at my Medium armor stamina sorc; there is zero reason for me to run heavy. I'll take Mobility any day of the week over some extra resist in PvP.

Its funny cause ur medium armor stamsorc is closer to the heavy playstyle than medium. Snb, very tanky with impreg, block capabilities, low regen for the standards of medium armor, relatively high hp, no streak, relying on procs to deal dmg. And definitely not mobile. You dont even have major expedition.

Sorry but when someone looks at the video of ur sorc, wonders why you are in medium armor and not in heavy. Not the other way around. You are playing a worse version of what fengrush ran in the beginning of morrowind in terms of playstyle and sets. Same dmg, same sustain. The only difference is that he was way way more tanky, and probably even more mobile with streak.

The whole point of people talking about the viability of medium armor here is to play like an actual medium armor build. Not a heavy armor build in medium. When you bring ur stamsorc as an example then you've essentially lost the debate cause you are doing exactly that.

I'm playing a stam sorc who's an orc in full well fitted medium armor and you think I'm not mobile? I mean if I need speed I'll pop one of my speed pots but I don't need it usually. I would run bolt escape but I don't have the bloody room on my bar to do it. I was thinking of trying overload and running it on a bar like that but until I need it I'm not sure.

Also since the nerf to viper one of the sets I'm looking at is coward set.

Anyway saying that setup isn't mobile is simply false.

Also i rarely block with the setup. I do it when I eat something that's undodgable but it's a dodge setup not a block setup.

I would also never choose heavy over the setup I'm currently running as it's way way better then 5 heavy.

I'm simply running a build similar to what I ran on my stamina dk from the beginning of the game, 1hd shield and full medium.

Im just telling you what ur video shows. You are not playing an actual medium armor build. Its a heavy armor proc build in medium. Your setup can be mobile. But for the standards of stam sorcs is not. When you hear orc medium armor stamsorc the first thing that comes to ur mind is the fastest build in the game. Not a snb, tanky build spamming ransack and completely relying on procs to kill people.

So what you're saying it Nightblades who ran Viper/Selenes/Red Mountain were running a Heavy Armor proc build?

Please point out what procs i'm using that come from Heavy armor.

Zero; 1hd/shield is not part of Heavy Armor...I ran Medium Armor 1hd/shield for YEARS and I personally think it works really well on stamina sorc.

Viper isn't heavy armor; Nothing in the build is related to a heavy armor setup.

Now that doesn't mean i've not built myself to be tanky. I most certainly have... But its a combination of things.

As for the first thing that comes to your mind is the fastest build in the game? Yea, they can be extremely fast if you go completely all out on it. I didn't go that route...I'm extremely fast....But i've chosen to incorporate other things into the build to suit my needs.

*edit*

My regen is 1700ish. (just looked at my video and that's old setup. I had 800ish regen there but swapped it up because i figured Dark Deal would work better in some fights but was running low in some)

and crit is never wasted; it increases my healing capability and my damage.

I rely heavily on sprint to run away; and i rely heavily on dodge rolling; Heavy would not suit me better.

pieratsos

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Currently the two classes that are going to utilize heavy armor in PVP are dragon knights and Templars.

Most mDKs have gone to light and magplars seem to be moving in that direction as well. With sets like impregnable and wizard's riposte, the extra mitigation from heavy isn't nearly as attractive as it was compared to extra penetration and cost reduction.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of MDK's in Light now a days; But Magplars for example i run 5 light myself.

I see zero reason to run something like Heavy on a Magicka Nightblade with wizards/trans being so common.

Even look at my Medium armor stamina sorc; there is zero reason for me to run heavy. I'll take Mobility any day of the week over some extra resist in PvP.

Its funny cause ur medium armor stamsorc is closer to the heavy playstyle than medium. Snb, very tanky with impreg, block capabilities, low regen for the standards of medium armor, relatively high hp, no streak, relying on procs to deal dmg. And definitely not mobile. You dont even have major expedition.

Sorry but when someone looks at the video of ur sorc, wonders why you are in medium armor and not in heavy. Not the other way around. You are playing a worse version of what fengrush ran in the beginning of morrowind in terms of playstyle and sets. Same dmg, same sustain. The only difference is that he was way way more tanky, and probably even more mobile with streak.

The whole point of people talking about the viability of medium armor here is to play like an actual medium armor build. Not a heavy armor build in medium. When you bring ur stamsorc as an example then you've essentially lost the debate cause you are doing exactly that.

I'm playing a stam sorc who's an orc in full well fitted medium armor and you think I'm not mobile? I mean if I need speed I'll pop one of my speed pots but I don't need it usually. I would run bolt escape but I don't have the bloody room on my bar to do it. I was thinking of trying overload and running it on a bar like that but until I need it I'm not sure.

Also since the nerf to viper one of the sets I'm looking at is coward set.

Anyway saying that setup isn't mobile is simply false.

Also i rarely block with the setup. I do it when I eat something that's undodgable but it's a dodge setup not a block setup.

I would also never choose heavy over the setup I'm currently running as it's way way better then 5 heavy.

I'm simply running a build similar to what I ran on my stamina dk from the beginning of the game, 1hd shield and full medium.

Im just telling you what ur video shows. You are not playing an actual medium armor build. Its a heavy armor proc build in medium. Your setup can be mobile. But for the standards of stam sorcs is not. When you hear orc medium armor stamsorc the first thing that comes to ur mind is the fastest build in the game. Not a snb, tanky build spamming ransack and completely relying on procs to kill people.

So what you're saying it Nightblades who ran Viper/Selenes/Red Mountain were running a Heavy Armor proc build?

Please point out what procs i'm using that come from Heavy armor.

Zero; 1hd/shield is not part of Heavy Armor...I ran Medium Armor 1hd/shield for YEARS and I personally think it works really well on stamina sorc.

Viper isn't heavy armor; Nothing in the build is related to a heavy armor setup.

Now that doesn't mean i've not built myself to be tanky. I most certainly have... But its a combination of things.

As for the first thing that comes to your mind is the fastest build in the game? Yea, they can be extremely fast if you go completely all out on it. I didn't go that route...I'm extremely fast....But i've chosen to incorporate other things into the build to suit my needs.

The common NB proctards you were seeing, is viper, selene, eternal hunt. They were the most squishy builds in the game. Their self heals suck *** and they completely relied on speed and dodging dmg to survive and they had 3k regen. They were relying on procs for killing people but they were still using a full rotation burst rotation and if u take away their procs and replace it with something else they'll still deal a very high burst and maintain the exact same playstyle. You wont. Sorry but spamming ransack without procs wont burst anyone down.

You see, you chose to incorporate other things into ur build at the expense of mobility. They cant. They are the definition of medium armor builds. Eternal hunt, squishy, mobile, dodgy jump in ur face burst leave. Medium armor builds cant give up mobility unless you fundamentally change the playstyle by getting snb. Thats why 2h/bow is prety much the go to medium armor setup. 2h gives u the burst, bow gives you the dodge and mobility.

I am not defending NB proctards. They are the most skilless build this game has ever seen. But there is no doubt that their playstyle is the definition of medium and its not even close to ur build.

Heavy would suit u better. You put on snb u gain block capabilities that works better with heavy and shut down a part of medium. Whether you choose to use utilize that is a different story but there is no doubt that it works better on heavy. Snb isnt built for burst which is essential of medium. You can burst tho because of procs not because of medium. Crits are wasted. They only thing they are usefull is heals but then again heavy would be even better in that department so whats the point. Heavy would also give you magicka sustain for streak (mobility). You are already somewhat relying on dark deal for sustain which synergizes far better with heavy. Medium is all about regen.

What im trying to say is that ur build no matter how good it is, its not a natural medium armor build. Its built around certain mechanics and sets unrelated to medium armor to get that feeling of medium armor.

Xsorus

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Currently the two classes that are going to utilize heavy armor in PVP are dragon knights and Templars.

Most mDKs have gone to light and magplars seem to be moving in that direction as well. With sets like impregnable and wizard's riposte, the extra mitigation from heavy isn't nearly as attractive as it was compared to extra penetration and cost reduction.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of MDK's in Light now a days; But Magplars for example i run 5 light myself.

I see zero reason to run something like Heavy on a Magicka Nightblade with wizards/trans being so common.

Even look at my Medium armor stamina sorc; there is zero reason for me to run heavy. I'll take Mobility any day of the week over some extra resist in PvP.

Its funny cause ur medium armor stamsorc is closer to the heavy playstyle than medium. Snb, very tanky with impreg, block capabilities, low regen for the standards of medium armor, relatively high hp, no streak, relying on procs to deal dmg. And definitely not mobile. You dont even have major expedition.

Sorry but when someone looks at the video of ur sorc, wonders why you are in medium armor and not in heavy. Not the other way around. You are playing a worse version of what fengrush ran in the beginning of morrowind in terms of playstyle and sets. Same dmg, same sustain. The only difference is that he was way way more tanky, and probably even more mobile with streak.

The whole point of people talking about the viability of medium armor here is to play like an actual medium armor build. Not a heavy armor build in medium. When you bring ur stamsorc as an example then you've essentially lost the debate cause you are doing exactly that.

I'm playing a stam sorc who's an orc in full well fitted medium armor and you think I'm not mobile? I mean if I need speed I'll pop one of my speed pots but I don't need it usually. I would run bolt escape but I don't have the bloody room on my bar to do it. I was thinking of trying overload and running it on a bar like that but until I need it I'm not sure.

Also since the nerf to viper one of the sets I'm looking at is coward set.

Anyway saying that setup isn't mobile is simply false.

Also i rarely block with the setup. I do it when I eat something that's undodgable but it's a dodge setup not a block setup.

I would also never choose heavy over the setup I'm currently running as it's way way better then 5 heavy.

I'm simply running a build similar to what I ran on my stamina dk from the beginning of the game, 1hd shield and full medium.

Im just telling you what ur video shows. You are not playing an actual medium armor build. Its a heavy armor proc build in medium. Your setup can be mobile. But for the standards of stam sorcs is not. When you hear orc medium armor stamsorc the first thing that comes to ur mind is the fastest build in the game. Not a snb, tanky build spamming ransack and completely relying on procs to kill people.

So what you're saying it Nightblades who ran Viper/Selenes/Red Mountain were running a Heavy Armor proc build?

Please point out what procs i'm using that come from Heavy armor.

Zero; 1hd/shield is not part of Heavy Armor...I ran Medium Armor 1hd/shield for YEARS and I personally think it works really well on stamina sorc.

Viper isn't heavy armor; Nothing in the build is related to a heavy armor setup.

Now that doesn't mean i've not built myself to be tanky. I most certainly have... But its a combination of things.

As for the first thing that comes to your mind is the fastest build in the game? Yea, they can be extremely fast if you go completely all out on it. I didn't go that route...I'm extremely fast....But i've chosen to incorporate other things into the build to suit my needs.

The common NB proctards you were seeing, is viper, selene, eternal hunt. They were the most squishy builds in the game. Their self heals suck *** and they completely relied on speed and dodging dmg to survive and they had 3k regen. They were relying on procs for killing people but they were still using a full rotation burst rotation and if u take away their procs and replace it with something else they'll still deal a very high burst and maintain the exact same playstyle. You wont. Sorry but spamming ransack without procs wont burst anyone down.

You see, you chose to incorporate other things into ur build at the expense of mobility. They cant. They are the definition of medium armor builds. Eternal hunt, squishy, mobile, dodgy jump in ur face burst leave. Medium armor builds cant give up mobility unless you fundamentally change the playstyle by getting snb. Thats why 2h/bow is prety much the go to medium armor setup. 2h gives u the burst, bow gives you the dodge and mobility.

I run DW/2hander on stamina nb. i didn't run eternal hunt....I was running Bone Pirate/Viper/Selenes.

And the self healing on Nb Proctards wasn't ***...Rally/Vigor is extremely good healing... Esp when you have high crit/and decent weapon damage (I was sitting around 3k or so)...Now I had the advantage of Bloodthirst also so that's a bit extra healing on me but bow wasn't bad.

You also say I won't do very high burst? You do know that Ransack/Bash/Light attack is pretty much a staple on 1hd/shield burst for a very long time before Procs came into effect. The only proc i'd be losing is going to be Viper but i could make up for it by simply swapping out Tremors for Selenes on my setup. I could also swap viper out with eternal hunt (which isn't a bad idea but i wanna try cowards first).

now with that out of the way, Do you think they're more mobile then me? I run faster then them i can do it longer then them, and I can dodge roll more then them. they have access to bow speed but I can simply use Speed pot...So explain what mobility i'm giving up right now vs the standard nb proctard builds you ran across...

I feel like you have a very narrow view of what a "medium" armor build should be.

in closing i'm going to leave you with this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4T7jSMuYv4

1:47 mins in, watch this duel.....This was a setup that relied on Blocking/Dodging/Shield Stacking (via undaunted bastion) on a full medium armor setup using 1hd/shield and bow and extremely high overcapped Stamina recovery during soft cap area (like 180ish back then)

Don't assume a medium armor build should be something or a setup can't do something else.

*edit*

You keep saying I have no mobility only I do; and that I should switch to heavy that would not only reduce my mobility but also my damage all because you think 1hd shield should be more with heavy armor (which ignores all the magicka light armor dks with 1hd shield)

I'd be far easier to kill if I swapped on a heavy armor setup. I know this because I've ran black rose and fury with this setup before medium impregnable.

I don't utilize block with this built, I don't utilize streak with this build. I could drop something off my bars maybe and put streak on there. But at this point it's not needed from what I've played. If it becomes an issue I will.

My damage comes from proc yes, but I can run Selenes to make up for any difference after the nerfs. Only reason I didn't do it with this build previous is I just got done playing that exact setup on a stamina nb and wanted to do tremors instead.

pieratsos

@Xsorus
The proctards you were seeing had most definitely shite healing. They had less than 30k stamina and very low weapon dmg to be able to achieve high regen. They didnt need the wpn dmg because of procs and built in burst to the stamblade toolkit. Stamblades always had the worst healing. That was never their defence. And even if they had a good amount of self healing they were still the most squishy builds in the game. They cant take a hit like you can. Do not compare them to ur build. They are designed not to take a hit. Not just their builds or medium armor. Their whole class is designed around dodging dmg.

There is a difference between burst and sustained dmg. Light attack, ranscak, bash existed before but it wasnt for huge burst. And at the current state of the game u are most definitely not going to burst anyone down with that. There is no comparison between that and a dizzying swing combo or NB combo.

You can get more mobility than them because u are a stam sorc. Not because u built for it. You didnt. You actually disregarded a part of the mobility ur class gives you by not putting streak on ur bar. Even heavy armor sorcs have super high mobility. NBs fully utilize the strengths of medium armor. You dont. I dont have a very narrow mind of what medium armor means. Im just looking at facts. SnB have passives that work better with heavy. Not with medium. Period. Thats not a debate. You are not utilizing the regen medium passives either. You are free to get away with 1700 regen because of dark deal and if u dont roll you can still take a hit because of impreg. Which you can use because ur dmg is taken care with procs and because of the fact that u can run low regen with dark deal. They stack 3k regen cause they f*cking need it. They cant take a hit.

You are the narrow minded here that cant see that ur medium armor build is a result of certain mechanics and sets unrelated to medium.

And do not compare black rose, fury with ur build. That two entirely different playstyles. Fury gives a fuckton of weapon dmg. You dont need that because of procs. There is no comparison. Thats what procs do. They negate the need of weapon dmg because they do the dmg for you. And they do it with burst which is even better. Impreg vs black rose its common sense which has the highest survivability. Try ur build in heavy. Or just watch fengrush. He did it for you.

And lol at ur example with the video. You just showed a fight from a time when the game was fundamentally different with different mechanics to prove ur point. Thats like making a hybrid build now and saying its viable because back in the day it was viable. Do you know how stupid that sounds?

DDuke

I wish they made medium armor synergize better with S&B, but as it stands the stam regen from medium and blocking from S&B don't really get along.

But that's just my opinion - I currently have no interest whatsoever to test/play these tank builds.

What I can say though, just based on common sense and dueling spot observations, is that a good heavy armor stam build is going to beat a medium one 100% of time - whether that medium build is running S&B or not doesn't matter.


Also, I vehemently disagree with the notion that Vigor and/or Rally are "extremely good healing", especially in medium armor.

Vigor heals you for 1,5k on average per second on a high damage setup in medium armor.

You get roughly +18 health/second for every 100 weapon damage (or 1k stamina).


This is pathetic - one of the weakest scaling abilities in the game.

For comparison's sake, adding 1k magicka increases dmg shield strength (Dampen Magic/Hardened Ward) by 480 - you instantly get over five times the value that Vigor generates over 5 seconds.


You need heavy armor (and/or S&B) and the accompanying mitigation and increased healing to have any chance of outhealing damage.

This is the problem of having most abilities in the game as undodgeables and pairing that liability with weak heals.


So I see two options: either they buff dodge roll and make it useful again, or they buff Vigor in a way that doesn't make it overpowered for heavy armor, which can actually use it efficiently.

Xsorus

pieratsos wrote: »

@Xsorus
The proctards you were seeing had most definitely shite healing. They had less than 30k stamina and very low weapon dmg to be able to achieve high regen. They didnt need the wpn dmg because of procs and built in burst to the stamblade toolkit. Stamblades always had the worst healing. That was never their defence. And even if they had a good amount of self healing they were still the most squishy builds in the game. They cant take a hit like you can. Do not compare them to ur build. They are designed not to take a hit. Not just their builds or medium armor. Their whole class is designed around dodging dmg.

There is a difference between burst and sustained dmg. Light attack, ranscak, bash existed before but it wasnt for huge burst. And at the current state of the game u are most definitely not going to burst anyone down with that. There is no comparison between that and a dizzying swing combo or NB combo.

You can get more mobility than them because u are a stam sorc. Not because u built for it. You didnt. You actually disregarded a part of the mobility ur class gives you by not putting streak on ur bar. Even heavy armor sorcs have super high mobility. NBs fully utilize the strengths of medium armor. You dont. I dont have a very narrow mind of what medium armor means. Im just looking at facts. SnB have passives that work better with heavy. Not with medium. Period. Thats not a debate. You are not utilizing the regen medium passives either. You are free to get away with 1700 regen because of dark deal and if u dont roll you can still take a hit because of impreg. Which you can use because ur dmg is taken care with procs and because of the fact that u can run low regen with dark deal. They stack 3k regen cause they f*cking need it. They cant take a hit.

You are the narrow minded here that cant see that ur medium armor build is a result of certain mechanics and sets unrelated to medium.

And do not compare black rose, fury with ur build. That two entirely different playstyles. Fury gives a fuckton of weapon dmg. You dont need that because of procs. There is no comparison. Thats what procs do. They negate the need of weapon dmg because they do the dmg for you. And they do it with burst which is even better. Impreg vs black rose its common sense which has the highest survivability. Try ur build in heavy. Or just watch fengrush. He did it for you.

And lol at ur example with the video. You just showed a fight from a time when the game was fundamentally different with different mechanics to prove ur point. Thats like making a hybrid build now and saying its viable because back in the day it was viable. Do you know how stupid that sounds?

Again, I run the proctard build on my stamina nightblade, you're trying to tell me what those builds can and cannot do when I bloody run the build. The fact that you're telling me that they have less then 30k stamina tells me you didn't run the setup ever, or low weapon damage. When I ran eternal hunt on the setup I had over 30k stamina as a khajiit of all things. And if the above poster thinks vigor and rally is bad healing I don't know what to tell ya. It's some of the best healing in the game for staying alive. It's extremely potent when your effective health is increased substantially by stealth and dodging as well.

As for taking a hit, they can take a hit, I've taken plenty of hits in the setup. Are they as tanks as my stamina sorc, no... but to pretend they can't take a hit is just silly.

I choose not to use streak on a stamina sorc because I've not needed it yet. When I'm straight up faster then most of the classes in the game I don't need it. Yes it would be useful there is no doubt. It is however not needed or required if a stamina sorc.

Which passive work better with heavy that you're seeing by the way? The only one that I can see that cross between heavy and 1hd shield now would be constitution, which ate a fat nerf and I don't need because I'm not setup to be block heavy. You're basically at this point saying all 1hd shield builds should be heavy armor only because you're narrow minded on its capabilities. It's like saying medium armor users shouldn't use the restro staff because they're not magicka.

Also I bloody switched from 800 regen to 1700 regen for a reason. You say I don't use it but trust me I use it because you can't always dark deal in a fight.

Also why are you saying I take a hit cause of impregnable, impregnable let's me run well fitted, if I was using another set my ass would still have impen on all my armor. This is true for all my builds. I don't skimp on impen and that includes my stamina nightblade.

Fengrush ran his heavy armor build pre morrow-wind, this made sense because black rose was super good and cost reduction wasn't removed from CP, you go try running my setup as a heavy armor version right now and tell me how you do mate. There is a reason all the former heavy armor users have swapped back to medium. There is zero way I'd touch black rose right now and be anywhere near as tank and mobile as a medium armor impregnable build. I get zero from it.. it is not worth running it as someone who plays the setup and is telling you how it works.

As for the video I wanted to show you that it's narrow minded to believe certain things should be a certain way in the game, and ironically hybrid builds at this point are the closest they've been in forever to those days.

DeHei

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

Xsorus

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

LegendaryMage

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

This thread is not about you or how good you are in PVP. I'm sure no one cares about that. So give it a break on ego-driven arrogant posts and retorts, rather learn some humility before entering a thread with a reply that's crafted in such a way to discredit someone who has a lot more fighting and dueling experience than you ever will.

As for how good or bad DeHei is on his magicka templar, just don't man. You'll get melted in 30 seconds or less, guaranteed. Heavy or no heavy, it doesn't matter, the guy is a top notch magicka templar dueler.

Now enough about this nonsense, let's get back on track and actually discuss heavy vs medium armor in ESO, not Xsorus vs everyone else and how good of a player and knowledgeable Xsorus is. Simply put, if you got nothing good to add, be quiet 'mate'.

DemonDruaga

Take 2 chars one in heavy one in medium

Both with the same gear and enchants, both the 100 base penetration.
Let them light attack one to death.

And you'll see part of the problem, with equal offensive stats the heavy one will dish the higher numbers on the medium dude.
And that is wrong by design.
In a fight between those armor types the dmg dealt to one another should be more balanced.

Med. Should have more dmg but gets mitigated by the heavy armor.

Heavy should have the lower dmg, but since medium is squishy it can't mitigate it, so it will balance out to a degree.

From that point on the win goes to who ever plays his armor/build type better. Both have cons and pros. Is it sustain via base stat or using more heavy attacks, getting more self heal via passives etc. Etc.

I for myself can sustain way easier in heavy, since I don't nees to burn stamina for dodge rolls and heal spaming like a mad man.
The only reason I enjoy medium is the movement speed.

Thats just my opinion

DeHei

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

Ok lets give us to test this. You are on PC/EU, too?

I allways like to give a feedback over duelling and not only with words. You will see what i mean, there was only 1 stamina nightblade in medium armor in last several weeks, who could win 1 duell with a lucky punch. All other were dodging to death...

Xsorus

DeHei wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

Ok lets give us to test this. You are on PC/EU, too?

I allways like to give a feedback over duelling and not only with words. You will see what i mean, there was only 1 stamina nightblade in medium armor in last several weeks, who could win 1 duell with a lucky punch. All other were dodging to death...

I'm on PC/NA, i figured you would know this.

And you got bursted by those stamina nbs huh, hard to heal through those heal debuffs huh

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

This thread is not about you or how good you are in PVP. I'm sure no one cares about that. So give it a break on ego-driven arrogant posts and retorts, rather learn some humility before entering a thread with a reply that's crafted in such a way to discredit someone who has a lot more fighting and dueling experience than you ever will.

As for how good or bad DeHei is on his magicka templar, just don't man. You'll get melted in 30 seconds or less, guaranteed. Heavy or no heavy, it doesn't matter, the guy is a top notch magicka templar dueler.

Now enough about this nonsense, let's get back on track and actually discuss heavy vs medium armor in ESO, not Xsorus vs everyone else and how good of a player and knowledgeable Xsorus is. Simply put, if you got nothing good to add, be quiet 'mate'.

I reply to those who reply to me mate; and DeHei i believe runs almost the exact same setup as I do on my magicka Templar; think he swaps out wizard for VMA staff and willpower though; but i know the burst of overwhelming and valkyn skoria on a magicka Templar and it is very obscene.

I also know what pressures that setup. But I'd say given the burst he'd probably win 60/40 any fights we had. Depends on how often Templar burst and skoria hit at the same time.

as for your experience at dueling; you made a thread whining about heavy armor being better then medium armor while making all your builds medium armor; I take it you were found wanting in your duels against better players and decided to change the game instead of getting better.

DeHei

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

Ok lets give us to test this. You are on PC/EU, too?

I allways like to give a feedback over duelling and not only with words. You will see what i mean, there was only 1 stamina nightblade in medium armor in last several weeks, who could win 1 duell with a lucky punch. All other were dodging to death...

I'm on PC/NA, i figured you would know this.

And you got bursted by those stamina nbs huh, hard to heal through those heal debuffs huh

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

This thread is not about you or how good you are in PVP. I'm sure no one cares about that. So give it a break on ego-driven arrogant posts and retorts, rather learn some humility before entering a thread with a reply that's crafted in such a way to discredit someone who has a lot more fighting and dueling experience than you ever will.

As for how good or bad DeHei is on his magicka templar, just don't man. You'll get melted in 30 seconds or less, guaranteed. Heavy or no heavy, it doesn't matter, the guy is a top notch magicka templar dueler.

Now enough about this nonsense, let's get back on track and actually discuss heavy vs medium armor in ESO, not Xsorus vs everyone else and how good of a player and knowledgeable Xsorus is. Simply put, if you got nothing good to add, be quiet 'mate'.

I reply to those who reply to me mate; and DeHei i believe runs almost the exact same setup as I do on my magicka Templar; think he swaps out wizard for VMA staff and willpower though; but i know the burst of overwhelming and valkyn skoria on a magicka Templar and it is very obscene.

I also know what pressures that setup. But I'd say given the burst he'd probably win 60/40 any fights we had. Depends on how often Templar burst and skoria hit at the same time.

I play a very unique build mate
Its not to difficult to heal against stamina burst nightblades. Nearly all time you need to wait for fear or directly incap and then assassin´s scourge together with other burst. But this is the common combination. Trust me i can outheal that
A good nightblade will deal much damage over axe bleedings and weaponattack and skills to make much pressure allready and use that named combination to finish. The problem against my build is just, he cant stay to long in my areadamagefields

Next time i will upload some duells, if you are interested

IlCanis_LupuslI

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Heavy armor is grossly overpowered compared to medium. It sustains just as good thanks to the rapid mending resource bonus, it has access to shuffle like medium and it can provide you with a bunch of damage thanks to an array of offensive heavy armor sets.

Fighting some of these characters becomes impossible when they're dealing more damage than you, sustain better by abusing a resource mechanic and can take 3 times more punishment before going down.

If anyone over there cares about PVP balance, I propose the following;

- Consider tuning down offensive heavy armor sets, there should be no reason for me to run heavy armor and have more damage overall than in medium.
- Restrict armor actives to their armor tree, 5+ pieces required to use that active ability. No more shuffle on heavy armor, in fact, major evasion in heavy armor probably shouldn't be allowed at all.
- Remove the resource sustain from rapid mending, in what world does it make sense to wield a two handed massive weapon in FULL heavy armor and actually replenish your resources at an increased rate? If you were worried about pve tanks not sustaining as well, don't - they sustain perfectly fine in dungeons, and the ones that don't, need to work on their builds a bit.

If you want to see more balanced pvp gameplay in ESO, you really need to look into this heavy armor meta, it will only get worse in time.

Oh and btw since I'm here, get rid of those proc sets, no one asked for them, no one competent likes them, having your armor do damage for you is incredibly stupid. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to miss the good old 1.5 pvp days too.

Have a good day.

Heavy armor vs medium:
heavy has better survavalability but LESS STAMINA SUBSTAIN but A BIT OF MAGICA SUBSTAIN ASWELL
less damage le

DeHei wrote: »

The easist solution would be a passiv, that reduce incoming damage for arround 25%, but reducing also the damageoutput for 50% while wearing 5+ pieces heavy armor. This passiv for the other what gives spell- & weapondamage!

Problem solved!

I personally think, that some heavy armorset like seventh legion, revegar or fury need a 5th setpiecenerf. Medium armor need more damage mitigation to make it optional in PvP..

Before you want to nerf heavy..... BUFF MEDIUM FFS SO YOU

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

In my opinion the main problem isn't heavy armor, it is that you can stack so much tankiness while maintaining so much damage. I wouldn't rate heavy armor as totally overpowered (it's a bit too strong in my opinion tho), it's just that you can push builds into such an extreme these days. Sustaining in heavy armor with heavy attacks allows you to stack insane amounts of damage which boost healing and also help a lot to pressure the opponent so that he/she can't fight back.

On top of that you can just go vampire and stick to stage 3 and getting access to the (in my opinion) strongest passive in this game. I've tested against friend (who played a heavy armor nb which is still the "squishiest" class lol...) and at low health my Surprise Attack did crit for 2,1k with a 10k tooltip and 80% critical damage modifier, that's just stupid (for the same reason I think that sorc or necroblade is too strong - it's not the class itself, it's this stupid vampire passive which synergizes far too well with tanky or shield builds).

You know the HA only works when you actually hit the target??? so good luck hitting a roly-poly eternal *** nb while relying on your HA to get back resources. Same with perma blockers..... Medium armor is better in open pvp/open spaces where u can utellize your mobility. heavy armor is better in cramped spaces where the low mobility of HA doesnt matter. If you want to make medium armor more effective in pvp. give it a passive to mitigate the high burst in pvp(gankers, etc) something to make medium armor survivalabiltiy a bit less crappy....

LegendaryMage

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

Ok lets give us to test this. You are on PC/EU, too?

I allways like to give a feedback over duelling and not only with words. You will see what i mean, there was only 1 stamina nightblade in medium armor in last several weeks, who could win 1 duell with a lucky punch. All other were dodging to death...

I'm on PC/NA, i figured you would know this.

And you got bursted by those stamina nbs huh, hard to heal through those heal debuffs huh

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

This thread is not about you or how good you are in PVP. I'm sure no one cares about that. So give it a break on ego-driven arrogant posts and retorts, rather learn some humility before entering a thread with a reply that's crafted in such a way to discredit someone who has a lot more fighting and dueling experience than you ever will.

As for how good or bad DeHei is on his magicka templar, just don't man. You'll get melted in 30 seconds or less, guaranteed. Heavy or no heavy, it doesn't matter, the guy is a top notch magicka templar dueler.

Now enough about this nonsense, let's get back on track and actually discuss heavy vs medium armor in ESO, not Xsorus vs everyone else and how good of a player and knowledgeable Xsorus is. Simply put, if you got nothing good to add, be quiet 'mate'.

I reply to those who reply to me mate; and DeHei i believe runs almost the exact same setup as I do on my magicka Templar; think he swaps out wizard for VMA staff and willpower though; but i know the burst of overwhelming and valkyn skoria on a magicka Templar and it is very obscene.

I also know what pressures that setup. But I'd say given the burst he'd probably win 60/40 any fights we had. Depends on how often Templar burst and skoria hit at the same time.

as for your experience at dueling; you made a thread whining about heavy armor being better then medium armor while making all your builds medium armor; I take it you were found wanting in your duels against better players and decided to change the game instead of getting better.

Ok dude, now I'm getting sick of your bull*hit for real.

First of all, when someone opens a thread to explain why something is overpowered, it doesn't mean he's 1) not playing it himself, 2) has problems with it himself. Understand that?

Get that stupid mentality out of your head ASAP, it makes you look ridiculous and simply annoying.

The only person whining in this thread is you, when it's absolutely clear you have zero clue about; 1) what burst is, 2) how heavy armor builds are made, 3) how to fight competent opponents in such setups.

I've put up with all of your stupid statements so far, ignoring you in the hope of letting you vent out and move on, but you just don't know when to stop do you?

What other idiotic statement you want me to deal with now? How I say heavy is OP but play medium? If you ever bothered to read or listen to what I say, it goes like this, and I mention this in many videos, pay close attention:

- Heavy armor is stronger and more effective.
- Medium is more fun as demonstrated by decimus, not all players enjoy a tanky s/b setup.
- I like playing both but I often opt-in for heavy in order to last longer in those zergy fights.
- I have no problems dodging attacks, of any kind, be it heavy attacks or skills, perhaps @Ragnaroek93 can confirm my sorc playstyle?
- I prefer medium armor for a stam char, and as I said, I like it more than heavy, but that does not under any circumstances mean that I'm playing it more often or doing more builds around it.

You linking 2-3 medium armor builds, out of DOZENS of heavy ones that I did so far proves absolutely nothing. This is why I told you to stop spamming the thread with your nonsense, there is no point explaining anything to you, you are too arrogant to even read what someone writes, let alone consider it for a moment, hence the easiest way of dealing with you - can you please stop spamming the thread with your nonsense?

So now that we've established how your accusations are baseless, arguments ridiculous and the tone of your reply screams of someone who thinks he knows a lot more than he does, when other players tell him that he's wrong, what do we do next?

Hopefully educate you a bit further. Again, read carefully:

You are wrong. Heavy is stronger than medium. I played with dozens of great players and they all say the same thing, and I agree based on my extensive personal experience, having fought many battles in BOTH medium and heavy.

Just because YOU cannot make a good heavy build, doesn't mean that it's weaker, it just means that you don't know how to do it effectively. And that's all man, stop being offended when you're told that you don't know something. You don't. Get over it and for the last time, stop spamming this thread with posts about you, or how knowledgeable you are or whatever. You're not, you just think you are.

Cyrediath

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

You guys keep saying heavy armor op but if zos nerf heavy even a bit heavy magicka builds will be dead. no sustain. no resource from heavy attack etc.. constitiuon giving 500 mag stamina every 4 seconds. ewuals 125 per second. its nothing...

I think people forget that heavy armor magicka builds were perfectly viable before ZOS even buffed heavy armor.
I bet I could still make a top tier magicka templar with heavy armor if that still interested me.

A lot of people underestimate the power of mitigation, especially when combined with strong heals (Rapid Mending passive helps a lot).

Also, Constitution is 540 magicka/stamina every 4 seconds with 5 heavy armor pieces - this equals to 270 magicka and stamina regen.

In order to get the equal of 270 magicka/stamina regen from Windwalker/Recovery medium/light passives (with 5 medium or 5 light pieces for comparison's sake), you'd need to have 1350 base stamina regen.

This means atleast 2x regen bonuses from gear and regen food/drink - so you're already giving up damage just to get even with one half of the "regen".


So no, Constitution is not "nothing", Constitution is insane when you put things into perspective and compare it to other armor types.

So the issue of this thread now isn't the "horrendious op" damage bonus from wrath anymore but the resource return and the mitigation? What exactly should heavy armor do? I always read opinions like "it should outlast but deal less damage". And that is what it does. Wrath pales in comparison to LA penetration + crit and to MA weapon dmg boost + crit.

HA does not even grant cost reduction. But it "outlasts" via resource return + mitigation.

Just some numbers on mitigation, legendary level. Only the armor passives activated, no additional set boni or whatsoever. Numbers taken from UESP build editor.

7 Light: 10.042 spell (15%) 7.501 phys (11%)
5 L/ 1M/ 1H: 11.656 spell (18%) 9.841 phys (15%) (chest heavy, legs medium)

7 Medium: 11.199 in both (17%)
5/1/1: 12.354 spell (19%), 11.991 phys (18%) (chest heavy, waist light)

7 Heavy: 17.431 in both (26%)
5/1/1: 16.210 spell (24%), 15.847 phys (24%) (hand medium, waist light)

So, assuming one runs 5/1/1, the difference between 5 light and 5 heavy is 4554 spell resistance and 6.006 physical resistance. But that all doesn't matter when light armors main defense is up: magickal wards. No resistances get taken into account, be it physical, spell or critical. Problem here is that wards tend to drop at critical moments.

Between 5/1/1 medium and heavy lies 3856 spell and physical resistance. But also 20% dodge roll costs. Having in mind that a dodge roll completely negates 100% damage and effects from dodged skills it's more usefull than 5-6% mitigation. Obvious issue here is that some devs thought it would be a good idea to have increasing numbers of hardcounters to dodge rolling.

Since you sacrifice 20-28% recovery, 10-14% cost reduction, 2191 spell crit chance or 1640-2.296 phys crit chance, , 4884 penetration or 12% weapon dmg + 20-24% dodge roll cost decrease + 15-21% sprint speed when chosing heavy over light / medium I think it's fair to have 5-15% more mitigation, 8% better healing and unshrinkable resource return.

I think it's rather clear that the devs headed into "outlasting" with heavy and damage with the others. So again, problem are not the passives but the sets. At least it seems so when you look at ravager, 7th legion and so on. They fill the hole the passives intentionaly left - damage.
But strangely enough this argument gets not taken into account when talking about defensive light armor sets like wizards reposte etc. that fills the hole in LA passives - dmg reduction.

Thats the comment i was looking for. I dont understand why people think heavy is op. Im pretty sure zos will nerf black rose again which already nerfed back to oblivion and most useless set atm.

Light armor has its shields that cannot be critted and can be spammed. Medium armor has good buffs for dodge rolling, running, offence. Just because you cant kill a heavy build doesnt mean they are op. They meant to be defensive.

So this guys saying heavy is op you wouldnt invite any dd wearingheavy armor to your trials right? so heavy is useless in pve for healers and dds. its only viable for pve tanks and some pvp build. But you want to be invicible with medium/light armor okay lets do that. and whata next? if you are medium you will claim light is op. you will want everything nerfed until your build becomes op.

Comments here are sooo biased. people say constitition gives you 250 regen that cannot be reduced with poison. why dont you also talk about having good amount of regen in light/medium which can be increased %20 + %20 + %15 +%20 (light/racial/cp/potion) so 2k regen becomes 3500 with buffs + for light armor people usually running resto on back bar which gives loooots of magicka return with heavy attack whereas my heavy mag dk dual 1h/s has no magicka return in heavy attack.

I have maxed light/medium/heavy armor dds and im having big trouble on resource management on my heavy magdk. wood elf nb/redguardnb/redguarddk this 3 stamina medium builds have no resource management issues. light armor high elf sorc best with resource management and also tanky with 3 shields 30k in pvp + mines + shuffle + streak.

Please tell me how heavy is op without being biased and with mathematical facts. please.

DeHei

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Heavy armor is grossly overpowered compared to medium. It sustains just as good thanks to the rapid mending resource bonus, it has access to shuffle like medium and it can provide you with a bunch of damage thanks to an array of offensive heavy armor sets.

Fighting some of these characters becomes impossible when they're dealing more damage than you, sustain better by abusing a resource mechanic and can take 3 times more punishment before going down.

If anyone over there cares about PVP balance, I propose the following;

- Consider tuning down offensive heavy armor sets, there should be no reason for me to run heavy armor and have more damage overall than in medium.
- Restrict armor actives to their armor tree, 5+ pieces required to use that active ability. No more shuffle on heavy armor, in fact, major evasion in heavy armor probably shouldn't be allowed at all.
- Remove the resource sustain from rapid mending, in what world does it make sense to wield a two handed massive weapon in FULL heavy armor and actually replenish your resources at an increased rate? If you were worried about pve tanks not sustaining as well, don't - they sustain perfectly fine in dungeons, and the ones that don't, need to work on their builds a bit.

If you want to see more balanced pvp gameplay in ESO, you really need to look into this heavy armor meta, it will only get worse in time.

Oh and btw since I'm here, get rid of those proc sets, no one asked for them, no one competent likes them, having your armor do damage for you is incredibly stupid. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to miss the good old 1.5 pvp days too.

Have a good day.

Heavy armor vs medium:
heavy has better survavalability but LESS STAMINA SUBSTAIN but A BIT OF MAGICA SUBSTAIN ASWELL
less damage le

DeHei wrote: »

The easist solution would be a passiv, that reduce incoming damage for arround 25%, but reducing also the damageoutput for 50% while wearing 5+ pieces heavy armor. This passiv for the other what gives spell- & weapondamage!

Problem solved!

I personally think, that some heavy armorset like seventh legion, revegar or fury need a 5th setpiecenerf. Medium armor need more damage mitigation to make it optional in PvP..

Before you want to nerf heavy..... BUFF MEDIUM FFS SO YOU

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

In my opinion the main problem isn't heavy armor, it is that you can stack so much tankiness while maintaining so much damage. I wouldn't rate heavy armor as totally overpowered (it's a bit too strong in my opinion tho), it's just that you can push builds into such an extreme these days. Sustaining in heavy armor with heavy attacks allows you to stack insane amounts of damage which boost healing and also help a lot to pressure the opponent so that he/she can't fight back.

On top of that you can just go vampire and stick to stage 3 and getting access to the (in my opinion) strongest passive in this game. I've tested against friend (who played a heavy armor nb which is still the "squishiest" class lol...) and at low health my Surprise Attack did crit for 2,1k with a 10k tooltip and 80% critical damage modifier, that's just stupid (for the same reason I think that sorc or necroblade is too strong - it's not the class itself, it's this stupid vampire passive which synergizes far too well with tanky or shield builds).

You know the HA only works when you actually hit the target??? so good luck hitting a roly-poly eternal *** nb while relying on your HA to get back resources. Same with perma blockers..... Medium armor is better in open pvp/open spaces where u can utellize your mobility. heavy armor is better in cramped spaces where the low mobility of HA doesnt matter. If you want to make medium armor more effective in pvp. give it a passive to mitigate the high burst in pvp(gankers, etc) something to make medium armor survivalabiltiy a bit less crappy....

You understood me wrong. I dont want to nerf HA, it would just be the easist solution. I prefer a medium armor buff, too. It really need more damage mitigation in some way.

You understand Ragnaroek93 wrong. We have some really good players, who dont need heavy attacks to sustain. They dont need to hit enemys to sustain there builds. But this very experienced people can do very much damage with a common heavy attack and they all run in fight with 4,5-5k weapondamage while in HA. They are very tanky cause of the reasons like Ragnaroek93 explained. Do you really think a medium armor build can compensate a "tank", who is able to deal more damage to you then you on him? He deals more damage to you with just spamming heavy attack together with skills until he see a weakness to finish you with a burstrotation. You need to do much more to get same pressure on him and its simply not possible to win this fight!

So medium armor is just to weak for solo PvP. In this times ganking against most of HA weared targets isnt fun. In duelling AND i only mean experienced PvPler, medium armor isnt a option!

DeHei

Cyrediath wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

You guys keep saying heavy armor op but if zos nerf heavy even a bit heavy magicka builds will be dead. no sustain. no resource from heavy attack etc.. constitiuon giving 500 mag stamina every 4 seconds. ewuals 125 per second. its nothing...

I think people forget that heavy armor magicka builds were perfectly viable before ZOS even buffed heavy armor.
I bet I could still make a top tier magicka templar with heavy armor if that still interested me.

A lot of people underestimate the power of mitigation, especially when combined with strong heals (Rapid Mending passive helps a lot).

Also, Constitution is 540 magicka/stamina every 4 seconds with 5 heavy armor pieces - this equals to 270 magicka and stamina regen.

In order to get the equal of 270 magicka/stamina regen from Windwalker/Recovery medium/light passives (with 5 medium or 5 light pieces for comparison's sake), you'd need to have 1350 base stamina regen.

This means atleast 2x regen bonuses from gear and regen food/drink - so you're already giving up damage just to get even with one half of the "regen".


So no, Constitution is not "nothing", Constitution is insane when you put things into perspective and compare it to other armor types.

So the issue of this thread now isn't the "horrendious op" damage bonus from wrath anymore but the resource return and the mitigation? What exactly should heavy armor do? I always read opinions like "it should outlast but deal less damage". And that is what it does. Wrath pales in comparison to LA penetration + crit and to MA weapon dmg boost + crit.

HA does not even grant cost reduction. But it "outlasts" via resource return + mitigation.

Just some numbers on mitigation, legendary level. Only the armor passives activated, no additional set boni or whatsoever. Numbers taken from UESP build editor.

7 Light: 10.042 spell (15%) 7.501 phys (11%)
5 L/ 1M/ 1H: 11.656 spell (18%) 9.841 phys (15%) (chest heavy, legs medium)

7 Medium: 11.199 in both (17%)
5/1/1: 12.354 spell (19%), 11.991 phys (18%) (chest heavy, waist light)

7 Heavy: 17.431 in both (26%)
5/1/1: 16.210 spell (24%), 15.847 phys (24%) (hand medium, waist light)

So, assuming one runs 5/1/1, the difference between 5 light and 5 heavy is 4554 spell resistance and 6.006 physical resistance. But that all doesn't matter when light armors main defense is up: magickal wards. No resistances get taken into account, be it physical, spell or critical. Problem here is that wards tend to drop at critical moments.

Between 5/1/1 medium and heavy lies 3856 spell and physical resistance. But also 20% dodge roll costs. Having in mind that a dodge roll completely negates 100% damage and effects from dodged skills it's more usefull than 5-6% mitigation. Obvious issue here is that some devs thought it would be a good idea to have increasing numbers of hardcounters to dodge rolling.

Since you sacrifice 20-28% recovery, 10-14% cost reduction, 2191 spell crit chance or 1640-2.296 phys crit chance, , 4884 penetration or 12% weapon dmg + 20-24% dodge roll cost decrease + 15-21% sprint speed when chosing heavy over light / medium I think it's fair to have 5-15% more mitigation, 8% better healing and unshrinkable resource return.

I think it's rather clear that the devs headed into "outlasting" with heavy and damage with the others. So again, problem are not the passives but the sets. At least it seems so when you look at ravager, 7th legion and so on. They fill the hole the passives intentionaly left - damage.
But strangely enough this argument gets not taken into account when talking about defensive light armor sets like wizards reposte etc. that fills the hole in LA passives - dmg reduction.

Thats the comment i was looking for. I dont understand why people think heavy is op. Im pretty sure zos will nerf black rose again which already nerfed back to oblivion and most useless set atm.

Light armor has its shields that cannot be critted and can be spammed. Medium armor has good buffs for dodge rolling, running, offence. Just because you cant kill a heavy build doesnt mean they are op. They meant to be defensive.

So this guys saying heavy is op you wouldnt invite any dd wearingheavy armor to your trials right? so heavy is useless in pve for healers and dds. its only viable for pve tanks and some pvp build. But you want to be invicible with medium/light armor okay lets do that. and whata next? if you are medium you will claim light is op. you will want everything nerfed until your build becomes op.

Comments here are sooo biased. people say constitition gives you 250 regen that cannot be reduced with poison. why dont you also talk about having good amount of regen in light/medium which can be increased %20 + %20 + %15 +%20 (light/racial/cp/potion) so 2k regen becomes 3500 with buffs + for light armor people usually running resto on back bar which gives loooots of magicka return with heavy attack whereas my heavy mag dk dual 1h/s has no magicka return in heavy attack.

I have maxed light/medium/heavy armor dds and im having big trouble on resource management on my heavy magdk. wood elf nb/redguardnb/redguarddk this 3 stamina medium builds have no resource management issues. light armor high elf sorc best with resource management and also tanky with 3 shields 30k in pvp + mines + shuffle + streak.

Please tell me how heavy is op without being biased and with mathematical facts. please.

Just one think, you can crit on damage mitigation shields. The critbonus for damage is just zero until the damage will not be as higher as the shield is. Dont ask me for the math behind, but you would get a kritdamage then. While active shield are higher then the critdamage you would only see to get a critted attack, but the damage is just high like a common attack.

IlCanis_LupuslI

DeHei wrote: »

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Heavy armor is grossly overpowered compared to medium. It sustains just as good thanks to the rapid mending resource bonus, it has access to shuffle like medium and it can provide you with a bunch of damage thanks to an array of offensive heavy armor sets.

Fighting some of these characters becomes impossible when they're dealing more damage than you, sustain better by abusing a resource mechanic and can take 3 times more punishment before going down.

If anyone over there cares about PVP balance, I propose the following;

- Consider tuning down offensive heavy armor sets, there should be no reason for me to run heavy armor and have more damage overall than in medium.
- Restrict armor actives to their armor tree, 5+ pieces required to use that active ability. No more shuffle on heavy armor, in fact, major evasion in heavy armor probably shouldn't be allowed at all.
- Remove the resource sustain from rapid mending, in what world does it make sense to wield a two handed massive weapon in FULL heavy armor and actually replenish your resources at an increased rate? If you were worried about pve tanks not sustaining as well, don't - they sustain perfectly fine in dungeons, and the ones that don't, need to work on their builds a bit.

If you want to see more balanced pvp gameplay in ESO, you really need to look into this heavy armor meta, it will only get worse in time.

Oh and btw since I'm here, get rid of those proc sets, no one asked for them, no one competent likes them, having your armor do damage for you is incredibly stupid. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to miss the good old 1.5 pvp days too.

Have a good day.

Heavy armor vs medium:
heavy has better survavalability but LESS STAMINA SUBSTAIN but A BIT OF MAGICA SUBSTAIN ASWELL
less damage le

DeHei wrote: »

The easist solution would be a passiv, that reduce incoming damage for arround 25%, but reducing also the damageoutput for 50% while wearing 5+ pieces heavy armor. This passiv for the other what gives spell- & weapondamage!

Problem solved!

I personally think, that some heavy armorset like seventh legion, revegar or fury need a 5th setpiecenerf. Medium armor need more damage mitigation to make it optional in PvP..

Before you want to nerf heavy..... BUFF MEDIUM FFS SO YOU

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

In my opinion the main problem isn't heavy armor, it is that you can stack so much tankiness while maintaining so much damage. I wouldn't rate heavy armor as totally overpowered (it's a bit too strong in my opinion tho), it's just that you can push builds into such an extreme these days. Sustaining in heavy armor with heavy attacks allows you to stack insane amounts of damage which boost healing and also help a lot to pressure the opponent so that he/she can't fight back.

On top of that you can just go vampire and stick to stage 3 and getting access to the (in my opinion) strongest passive in this game. I've tested against friend (who played a heavy armor nb which is still the "squishiest" class lol...) and at low health my Surprise Attack did crit for 2,1k with a 10k tooltip and 80% critical damage modifier, that's just stupid (for the same reason I think that sorc or necroblade is too strong - it's not the class itself, it's this stupid vampire passive which synergizes far too well with tanky or shield builds).

You know the HA only works when you actually hit the target??? so good luck hitting a roly-poly eternal *** nb while relying on your HA to get back resources. Same with perma blockers..... Medium armor is better in open pvp/open spaces where u can utellize your mobility. heavy armor is better in cramped spaces where the low mobility of HA doesnt matter. If you want to make medium armor more effective in pvp. give it a passive to mitigate the high burst in pvp(gankers, etc) something to make medium armor survivalabiltiy a bit less crappy....

You understood me wrong. I dont want to nerf HA, it would just be the easist solution. I prefer a medium armor buff, too. It really need more damage mitigation in some way.

You understand Ragnaroek93 wrong. We have some really good players, who dont need heavy attacks to sustain. They dont need to hit enemys to sustain there builds. But this very experienced people can do very much damage with a common heavy attack and they all run in fight with 4,5-5k weapondamage while in HA. They are very tanky cause of the reasons like Ragnaroek93 explained. Do you really think a medium armor build can compensate a "tank", who is able to deal more damage to you then you on him? He deals more damage to you with just spamming heavy attack together with skills until he see a weakness to finish you with a burstrotation. You need to do much more to get same pressure on him and its simply not possible to win this fight!

So medium armor is just to weak for solo PvP. In this times ganking against most of HA weared targets isnt fun. In duelling AND i only mean experienced PvPler, medium armor isnt a option!

Thats because the ungodly amount of undodgable skills and ultimes in this game and coz people have gotten wize to permadoge builds and when they see it pull out niceties like Soul Assault or Destro ult. Buff medium burst survivalability but dont nerf heavy...... The past nerfs have been enough... And btw i know plenty of skilled players who prefer medium in open world(shuffle permadodge builds mostly).... its a matter of preference..... No 3k wd in HA is average unless your wearing Fury or something. And yes a skilled medium armor player can dodge every single burst the HA wearer can throw at him. Yes it is possible to win that fight.... The more skilled person winns. Ive duelled a buddy wearing medium he in heavy both people same armor setups just mine was 5 medium/1/1 his was 5 heavy/1/1 and i won... I simplly had more PvP experience then him its that simple....

Cyrediath

Oh and btw my suggestion is giving medium armor a little bit more resistances (like 2.5k) because medium armor resists are so close to light armor and nerf slightly some heavy armor weapon damage sets. (but dont kill them like you did on black rose)

also for heavy, zos can change resource management by making it somehow giving smaller amount of resourcr back while waving your weapon but it will give magicka+atamina this time. This will be good for both magicka + stamina builds (well for stamina it will be slight nerf)

i think these changes would be good. what do you guys think?