PVP - Any plans on balancing heavy armor finally?

DDuke

Xsorus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

Seems to me this thread needs to clarify the sort of PvP it wants to address - duels, CP, BGs, Cyro...

In non-CP Cyrodiil, you need to mitigate and outheal a *** of damage for the sets to proc'. Fury is a case in point, as it never happens that you stand in a critting circle of caltrops with nobody around waiting to get the full 750 wd bonus. It's more like you get sorcs and NBs pounding at you, and you need to be offensive a bit or else you're toast. Except that your offense is a bit low to start with, so yeah.
Blocking is a limited option too, because unless you want to burn your stam in no time, you need to build for it (but Fury doesn't come in sturdy), and you lose all your regen - from that point of view, constitution is far from OP.

In no-CP open-world, offensive heavy sets are viable, no more - any nerfs to their bonus wouldn't make them so anymore.

All the maths that posit the procced weapon damage as given while overlooking the incoming damage and/or the triggering chance of the sets to proc', or compare constitution and regen while overlooking, once again, the necessary incoming damage for constitution to apply, and the absence of regen while blocking - seems to me they don't apply to open-world physics.

Constitution doesn't require you to block for it to proc and it doesn't matter how much damage you take (and whether it's from a DoT or direct attack), it simply procs whenever off cooldown and you take dmg of any kind.

Also, it scales just the same in CP as it does in no-CP. Here's an example:

In no-CP, a 5/1/1 a high damage medium armor build would have 1291 stam regen.
A 5/1/1 heavy armor build would get 1157 stam regen(+270 from constitution=1427).

So where the difference was 136 "stam regen" in favour of heavy in CP environment, it'd be... 136 "stam regen" in no-CP as well. Feel free to count it yourself (you can find the CP specific numbers in my post above).

As for the sets... the uptime is pretty much 100% on Legion & Fury unless your opponent stops attacking entirely (not a good way to win fights).

Compare these heavy sets with no internal cooldown to something like Briarheart which has 10 second duration & 15 second cooldown limiting uptime to 66% maximum, and gives much less weapon damage as well to add insult to injury.


The difference between medium & heavy is the same in no-CP as it is in CP - medium dies, heavy doesn't.

Quick question, what made you choose hunding rage and sheer venom (esp sheer venom which is *** imo)?

Experimentation and theorycrafting.


Here's reasoning behind Hunding's Rage: it's simply the medium set which provides most weapon damage without periods of weakness (e.g. Alchemist or Briarheart), meaning it gives you the highest chances of surviving undodgeable damage by boosting your heals significantly, while also significantly providing to your burst potential (especially if you use heavy attacks in your combo, as they benefit even more from weapon damage). Crit set bonuses were also buffed considerably, so Hunding's is a good choice this patch (crit being the stat that scales the best with Vigor).

And Sheer Venom: also provides a lot of weapon damage (only 40 less than Hunding's) and gives you another strong DoT whenever you PI & weapon swap (it procs from first tick of PI, so you only need 5x on one bar).

In fact, Sheer Venom deals more DoT damage than pre-execute phase PI. It also gains +20% to ticks when you Incap an opponent, adding to the overall damage of burst phase.

DDuke

Cyrediath wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

@DDuke even tho i also think stamina heavy performs better in a duel, your comment is a bit biased. you never compare magicka heavy vs magicka light.

Also medium benefits more when you habe higher weapon damage. it fits very well for the sneaky gank build.

And for pve, medium crushes heavy armor but no one talks about it and no one asking for buff to heavy for pve.

Im sure you wouldnt invite any heavy healer or dd to your vet trial or vet dlc dungon group/raid right?

No, and I'll be the first one to advocate for buffing heavy healers/dmg dealers in PvE (which is probably a pretty controversive opinion). I mean, if I can competitively play a heavy armor paladin healer/DPS in other games, why not in ESO? Or a heavy armor using warrior.

But that has no relevance when it comes to PvP & should be addressed separately.


As for heavy magicka vs magicka light... I don't think heavy armor is worse than light for magicka. I said the same thing year ago, before heavy armor had even got the buffs and people were calling it a joke - and not only did I say that, I also made a pretty strong build to prove people wrong.

Granted, the clips in that video are from after the buff patch - but it was strong even before that (able to go toe to toe vs the meta stam DKs of back then). After buffs, it just became ridiculously strong (and has been nerfed over & over again).

What I'm trying to say is, with proper set combinations & experimentation, a strong heavy armor magicka build could easily be created (I have some setups in mind).

The power of heals & mitigation can't be underestimated (you can't tank zergs in light armor).

Well you cant tank zergs with heavy armor too if you are not using shield ultimate or completely tanky.

light armor penetration, spell resistance, magicka recovery, cost reduction is superior compered to 200 spell damage + 250 mag recovery + max health + healing. I mean when i see people comparing armors they are focused on certain sets. yes some sets working very good with heavy as well as light and medium. But if you compare just passives you get from armor (just armor comparison) light is way better than heavy for magdk for an example imo. Ive tried several builds on my magicka dk heavy but always ended up with getting decent sustain with a spell damage from 1.5k to 2k or getting around 2.5k to 3k spell damage with no sustain. And you know magdk doesnt have much burst compered to other classes. it relies on skoria, leap, meteor etc.

On the other hand my magicka sorcerer has very good sustain and really gopd damage and i feel much more tankier with hardened ward + amnulment + healing ward. with bastion i guess it was 30k shield in pvp and can be spammed always.

With my magicka dk light armor i didnt have any sustain issues either. i had around 1.2k mag recovery but no sustain sets. in raids with magicka ball and synergies + elemental drain i never run out of magicka.

With heavy magdk i cant stack that much regen or cost reduction or penetration. I really tried.

I do my own calculations and light aeems better on paper compered to heavy for mag dk. i dont ask for a nerf on light but i really dont want heavy to get nerfed because i know it will effect magicka builds more..

Well, I've always found magicka DK far too squishy in light armor. You get outnumbered or just encounter a really high damage player and your defenses will melt rather fast. But I haven't played magicka DK enough to form a valid opinion - all I know is that top DK players in EU are mostly running heavy armor atm.


That said, I can easily see a magicka templar in heavy armor still tanking zergs with proper setup.

You just need to get enough mitigation (i.e. 6 heavy 1 light all impen, & high enough sweep tooltip, Minor Protection from Restoring Focus) & high enough sweep tooltip for big heals (Soulshine could work, +Major Mending from resto off bar, Minor Mending from templar passive & Minor Vitality from Restoring Focus).

Add in 2x Shadowrend for 15% dmg debuff on target & something like 4/5 (5 on off bar) Draugr's Rest so that you get a nice 1k/second (atleast) healing circle with all those modifiers whenever you heavy attack with resto (which restores 5k+ magicka every time in heavy armor).


Just an example of a build I think would do better than any light armor build out there (haven't tested it yet).

You can also abuse Infused weapon & Absorb Magicka enchant to get the equivalent of 460 "magicka regen" if sustain becomes an issue.

İ guess magicka regen enchant with infused gives around 400 magicka and its every 5 seconds with infused. with perfect timing you can land it every 6 seconds (assuming you are not stunned and enemy is not far away etc etc perfect situation) which is around less than 70 magicka per second.

Btw i disagree what you said about magdk. as far as i can see, more skilled magdk change their build to light armor for vastly more sustain and huge damage increase (from penetration, critical +able to put some spell damage glyphs on jewelries)

I'm quite sure the cooldown is 4 seconds default, as with all other damage enchants. Only the buff/debuff enchants have 10 second default cooldown (5s with Infused).

I will test this when servers come back online.

Cyrediath

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

@DDuke even tho i also think stamina heavy performs better in a duel, your comment is a bit biased. you never compare magicka heavy vs magicka light.

Also medium benefits more when you habe higher weapon damage. it fits very well for the sneaky gank build.

And for pve, medium crushes heavy armor but no one talks about it and no one asking for buff to heavy for pve.

Im sure you wouldnt invite any heavy healer or dd to your vet trial or vet dlc dungon group/raid right?

No, and I'll be the first one to advocate for buffing heavy healers/dmg dealers in PvE (which is probably a pretty controversive opinion). I mean, if I can competitively play a heavy armor paladin healer/DPS in other games, why not in ESO? Or a heavy armor using warrior.

But that has no relevance when it comes to PvP & should be addressed separately.


As for heavy magicka vs magicka light... I don't think heavy armor is worse than light for magicka. I said the same thing year ago, before heavy armor had even got the buffs and people were calling it a joke - and not only did I say that, I also made a pretty strong build to prove people wrong.

Granted, the clips in that video are from after the buff patch - but it was strong even before that (able to go toe to toe vs the meta stam DKs of back then). After buffs, it just became ridiculously strong (and has been nerfed over & over again).

What I'm trying to say is, with proper set combinations & experimentation, a strong heavy armor magicka build could easily be created (I have some setups in mind).

The power of heals & mitigation can't be underestimated (you can't tank zergs in light armor).

Well you cant tank zergs with heavy armor too if you are not using shield ultimate or completely tanky.

light armor penetration, spell resistance, magicka recovery, cost reduction is superior compered to 200 spell damage + 250 mag recovery + max health + healing. I mean when i see people comparing armors they are focused on certain sets. yes some sets working very good with heavy as well as light and medium. But if you compare just passives you get from armor (just armor comparison) light is way better than heavy for magdk for an example imo. Ive tried several builds on my magicka dk heavy but always ended up with getting decent sustain with a spell damage from 1.5k to 2k or getting around 2.5k to 3k spell damage with no sustain. And you know magdk doesnt have much burst compered to other classes. it relies on skoria, leap, meteor etc.

On the other hand my magicka sorcerer has very good sustain and really gopd damage and i feel much more tankier with hardened ward + amnulment + healing ward. with bastion i guess it was 30k shield in pvp and can be spammed always.

With my magicka dk light armor i didnt have any sustain issues either. i had around 1.2k mag recovery but no sustain sets. in raids with magicka ball and synergies + elemental drain i never run out of magicka.

With heavy magdk i cant stack that much regen or cost reduction or penetration. I really tried.

I do my own calculations and light aeems better on paper compered to heavy for mag dk. i dont ask for a nerf on light but i really dont want heavy to get nerfed because i know it will effect magicka builds more..

Well, I've always found magicka DK far too squishy in light armor. You get outnumbered or just encounter a really high damage player and your defenses will melt rather fast. But I haven't played magicka DK enough to form a valid opinion - all I know is that top DK players in EU are mostly running heavy armor atm.


That said, I can easily see a magicka templar in heavy armor still tanking zergs with proper setup.

You just need to get enough mitigation (i.e. 6 heavy 1 light all impen, & high enough sweep tooltip, Minor Protection from Restoring Focus) & high enough sweep tooltip for big heals (Soulshine could work, +Major Mending from resto off bar, Minor Mending from templar passive & Minor Vitality from Restoring Focus).

Add in 2x Shadowrend for 15% dmg debuff on target & something like 4/5 (5 on off bar) Draugr's Rest so that you get a nice 1k/second (atleast) healing circle with all those modifiers whenever you heavy attack with resto (which restores 5k+ magicka every time in heavy armor).


Just an example of a build I think would do better than any light armor build out there (haven't tested it yet).

You can also abuse Infused weapon & Absorb Magicka enchant to get the equivalent of 460 "magicka regen" if sustain becomes an issue.

İ guess magicka regen enchant with infused gives around 400 magicka and its every 5 seconds with infused. with perfect timing you can land it every 6 seconds (assuming you are not stunned and enemy is not far away etc etc perfect situation) which is around less than 70 magicka per second.

Btw i disagree what you said about magdk. as far as i can see, more skilled magdk change their build to light armor for vastly more sustain and huge damage increase (from penetration, critical +able to put some spell damage glyphs on jewelries)

I'm quite sure the cooldown is 4 seconds default, as with all other damage enchants. Only the buff/debuff enchants have 10 second default cooldown (5s with Infused).

I will test this when servers come back online.

well people using spell damage enchants on front bar. if you enchant your weapon on back bar with mag. recovery you wont be able to spam it every 2 seconds. i personally run infused crusher on back bar because i dont have enough penetration.

Omnipresent

ya if you aint a tank you shouldnt feel obligated to strap on heavy armor in pvp, its pretty clear some balancing has to looked into, im still in medium armor myself and rather take the beating then switch over to the dark side lol

Xsorus

DDuke wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

Seems to me this thread needs to clarify the sort of PvP it wants to address - duels, CP, BGs, Cyro...

In non-CP Cyrodiil, you need to mitigate and outheal a *** of damage for the sets to proc'. Fury is a case in point, as it never happens that you stand in a critting circle of caltrops with nobody around waiting to get the full 750 wd bonus. It's more like you get sorcs and NBs pounding at you, and you need to be offensive a bit or else you're toast. Except that your offense is a bit low to start with, so yeah.
Blocking is a limited option too, because unless you want to burn your stam in no time, you need to build for it (but Fury doesn't come in sturdy), and you lose all your regen - from that point of view, constitution is far from OP.

In no-CP open-world, offensive heavy sets are viable, no more - any nerfs to their bonus wouldn't make them so anymore.

All the maths that posit the procced weapon damage as given while overlooking the incoming damage and/or the triggering chance of the sets to proc', or compare constitution and regen while overlooking, once again, the necessary incoming damage for constitution to apply, and the absence of regen while blocking - seems to me they don't apply to open-world physics.

Constitution doesn't require you to block for it to proc and it doesn't matter how much damage you take (and whether it's from a DoT or direct attack), it simply procs whenever off cooldown and you take dmg of any kind.

Also, it scales just the same in CP as it does in no-CP. Here's an example:

In no-CP, a 5/1/1 a high damage medium armor build would have 1291 stam regen.
A 5/1/1 heavy armor build would get 1157 stam regen(+270 from constitution=1427).

So where the difference was 136 "stam regen" in favour of heavy in CP environment, it'd be... 136 "stam regen" in no-CP as well. Feel free to count it yourself (you can find the CP specific numbers in my post above).

As for the sets... the uptime is pretty much 100% on Legion & Fury unless your opponent stops attacking entirely (not a good way to win fights).

Compare these heavy sets with no internal cooldown to something like Briarheart which has 10 second duration & 15 second cooldown limiting uptime to 66% maximum, and gives much less weapon damage as well to add insult to injury.


The difference between medium & heavy is the same in no-CP as it is in CP - medium dies, heavy doesn't.

Quick question, what made you choose hunding rage and sheer venom (esp sheer venom which is *** imo)?

Experimentation and theorycrafting.


Here's reasoning behind Hunding's Rage: it's simply the medium set which provides most weapon damage without periods of weakness (e.g. Alchemist or Briarheart), meaning it gives you the highest chances of surviving undodgeable damage by boosting your heals significantly, while also significantly providing to your burst potential (especially if you use heavy attacks in your combo, as they benefit even more from weapon damage). Crit set bonuses were also buffed considerably, so Hunding's is a good choice this patch (crit being the stat that scales the best with Vigor).

And Sheer Venom: also provides a lot of weapon damage (only 40 less than Hunding's) and gives you another strong DoT whenever you PI & weapon swap (it procs from first tick of PI, so you only need 5x on one bar).

In fact, Sheer Venom deals more DoT damage than pre-execute phase PI. It also gains +20% to ticks when you Incap an opponent, adding to the overall damage of burst phase.

I ran a vice cannon build plus sheer venom a while back, that was when they actually crit. The damage in pvp was beyond *** poor on sheer venom. Hunding I can see, but I'd run bone pirate or eternal hunt over sheer venom any day of the week.

Joy_Division

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

@DDuke even tho i also think stamina heavy performs better in a duel, your comment is a bit biased. you never compare magicka heavy vs magicka light.

Also medium benefits more when you habe higher weapon damage. it fits very well for the sneaky gank build.

And for pve, medium crushes heavy armor but no one talks about it and no one asking for buff to heavy for pve.

Im sure you wouldnt invite any heavy healer or dd to your vet trial or vet dlc dungon group/raid right?

No, and I'll be the first one to advocate for buffing heavy healers/dmg dealers in PvE (which is probably a pretty controversive opinion). I mean, if I can competitively play a heavy armor paladin healer/DPS in other games, why not in ESO? Or a heavy armor using warrior.

But that has no relevance when it comes to PvP & should be addressed separately.


As for heavy magicka vs magicka light... I don't think heavy armor is worse than light for magicka. I said the same thing year ago, before heavy armor had even got the buffs and people were calling it a joke - and not only did I say that, I also made a pretty strong build to prove people wrong.

Granted, the clips in that video are from after the buff patch - but it was strong even before that (able to go toe to toe vs the meta stam DKs of back then). After buffs, it just became ridiculously strong (and has been nerfed over & over again).

What I'm trying to say is, with proper set combinations & experimentation, a strong heavy armor magicka build could easily be created (I have some setups in mind).

The power of heals & mitigation can't be underestimated (you can't tank zergs in light armor).

Well you cant tank zergs with heavy armor too if you are not using shield ultimate or completely tanky.

light armor penetration, spell resistance, magicka recovery, cost reduction is superior compered to 200 spell damage + 250 mag recovery + max health + healing. I mean when i see people comparing armors they are focused on certain sets. yes some sets working very good with heavy as well as light and medium. But if you compare just passives you get from armor (just armor comparison) light is way better than heavy for magdk for an example imo. Ive tried several builds on my magicka dk heavy but always ended up with getting decent sustain with a spell damage from 1.5k to 2k or getting around 2.5k to 3k spell damage with no sustain. And you know magdk doesnt have much burst compered to other classes. it relies on skoria, leap, meteor etc.

On the other hand my magicka sorcerer has very good sustain and really gopd damage and i feel much more tankier with hardened ward + amnulment + healing ward. with bastion i guess it was 30k shield in pvp and can be spammed always.

With my magicka dk light armor i didnt have any sustain issues either. i had around 1.2k mag recovery but no sustain sets. in raids with magicka ball and synergies + elemental drain i never run out of magicka.

With heavy magdk i cant stack that much regen or cost reduction or penetration. I really tried.

I do my own calculations and light aeems better on paper compered to heavy for mag dk. i dont ask for a nerf on light but i really dont want heavy to get nerfed because i know it will effect magicka builds more..

Well, I've always found magicka DK far too squishy in light armor. You get outnumbered or just encounter a really high damage player and your defenses will melt rather fast. But I haven't played magicka DK enough to form a valid opinion - all I know is that top DK players in EU are mostly running heavy armor atm.


That said, I can easily see a magicka templar in heavy armor still tanking zergs with proper setup.

You just need to get enough mitigation (i.e. 6 heavy 1 light all impen, & high enough sweep tooltip, Minor Protection from Restoring Focus) & high enough sweep tooltip for big heals (Soulshine could work, +Major Mending from resto off bar, Minor Mending from templar passive & Minor Vitality from Restoring Focus).

Add in 2x Shadowrend for 15% dmg debuff on target & something like 4/5 (5 on off bar) Draugr's Rest so that you get a nice 1k/second (atleast) healing circle with all those modifiers whenever you heavy attack with resto (which restores 5k+ magicka every time in heavy armor).


Just an example of a build I think would do better than any light armor build out there (haven't tested it yet).

You can also abuse Infused weapon & Absorb Magicka enchant to get the equivalent of 460 "magicka regen" if sustain becomes an issue.

İ guess magicka regen enchant with infused gives around 400 magicka and its every 5 seconds with infused. with perfect timing you can land it every 6 seconds (assuming you are not stunned and enemy is not far away etc etc perfect situation) which is around less than 70 magicka per second.

Btw i disagree what you said about magdk. as far as i can see, more skilled magdk change their build to light armor for vastly more sustain and huge damage increase (from penetration, critical +able to put some spell damage glyphs on jewelries)

I'm quite sure the cooldown is 4 seconds default, as with all other damage enchants. Only the buff/debuff enchants have 10 second default cooldown (5s with Infused).

I will test this when servers come back online.

Mag regen glyph procs every 4 seconds with infused. Not sure this is a bug or intended.

DDuke

Xsorus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

Seems to me this thread needs to clarify the sort of PvP it wants to address - duels, CP, BGs, Cyro...

In non-CP Cyrodiil, you need to mitigate and outheal a *** of damage for the sets to proc'. Fury is a case in point, as it never happens that you stand in a critting circle of caltrops with nobody around waiting to get the full 750 wd bonus. It's more like you get sorcs and NBs pounding at you, and you need to be offensive a bit or else you're toast. Except that your offense is a bit low to start with, so yeah.
Blocking is a limited option too, because unless you want to burn your stam in no time, you need to build for it (but Fury doesn't come in sturdy), and you lose all your regen - from that point of view, constitution is far from OP.

In no-CP open-world, offensive heavy sets are viable, no more - any nerfs to their bonus wouldn't make them so anymore.

All the maths that posit the procced weapon damage as given while overlooking the incoming damage and/or the triggering chance of the sets to proc', or compare constitution and regen while overlooking, once again, the necessary incoming damage for constitution to apply, and the absence of regen while blocking - seems to me they don't apply to open-world physics.

Constitution doesn't require you to block for it to proc and it doesn't matter how much damage you take (and whether it's from a DoT or direct attack), it simply procs whenever off cooldown and you take dmg of any kind.

Also, it scales just the same in CP as it does in no-CP. Here's an example:

In no-CP, a 5/1/1 a high damage medium armor build would have 1291 stam regen.
A 5/1/1 heavy armor build would get 1157 stam regen(+270 from constitution=1427).

So where the difference was 136 "stam regen" in favour of heavy in CP environment, it'd be... 136 "stam regen" in no-CP as well. Feel free to count it yourself (you can find the CP specific numbers in my post above).

As for the sets... the uptime is pretty much 100% on Legion & Fury unless your opponent stops attacking entirely (not a good way to win fights).

Compare these heavy sets with no internal cooldown to something like Briarheart which has 10 second duration & 15 second cooldown limiting uptime to 66% maximum, and gives much less weapon damage as well to add insult to injury.


The difference between medium & heavy is the same in no-CP as it is in CP - medium dies, heavy doesn't.

Quick question, what made you choose hunding rage and sheer venom (esp sheer venom which is *** imo)?

Experimentation and theorycrafting.


Here's reasoning behind Hunding's Rage: it's simply the medium set which provides most weapon damage without periods of weakness (e.g. Alchemist or Briarheart), meaning it gives you the highest chances of surviving undodgeable damage by boosting your heals significantly, while also significantly providing to your burst potential (especially if you use heavy attacks in your combo, as they benefit even more from weapon damage). Crit set bonuses were also buffed considerably, so Hunding's is a good choice this patch (crit being the stat that scales the best with Vigor).

And Sheer Venom: also provides a lot of weapon damage (only 40 less than Hunding's) and gives you another strong DoT whenever you PI & weapon swap (it procs from first tick of PI, so you only need 5x on one bar).

In fact, Sheer Venom deals more DoT damage than pre-execute phase PI. It also gains +20% to ticks when you Incap an opponent, adding to the overall damage of burst phase.

I ran a vice cannon build plus sheer venom a while back, that was when they actually crit. The damage in pvp was beyond *** poor on sheer venom. Hunding I can see, but I'd run bone pirate or eternal hunt over sheer venom any day of the week.

Vicecanon is the weaker of those two DoTs actually, dealing far less damage (568DPS on average with this gear) and being much harder to proc (often impossible). Vicecanon on the other hand gives you 869DPS on average as well as good 2-4 set bonuses.

I've considered Bone Pirate & Eternal Hunt as well, but there are problems with those sets.

Bone Pirate gives you no weapon damage, meaning it doesn't really add as much to your burst if you Cloak->Heavy+SA.

Bone Pirate in total gives you around +5% damage to your skills, where as Sheer Venom gives you 5.2% (with Major Brutality & 10% weapon dmg Master Assassin passive) to your skills & a lot more to light/heavy attacks - as well as the DoT (which is deceptively strong).

Eternal Hunt would be more burst damage, if the rune didn't spawn from where you initiate the dodge roll. It is ridiculously easy for your opponent to simply walk around it, unless you're playing against a mindless zombie.


But yeah, my build is based around high damage/healing, I don't much care about getting the stam regen bonuses from those setups when running out of stamina rarely is what kills me in PvP.

NBrookus

Cyrediath wrote: »

Btw i disagree what you said about magdk. as far as i can see, more skilled magdk change their build to light armor for vastly more sustain and huge damage increase (from penetration, critical +able to put some spell damage glyphs on jewelries)

This came up earlier. It may be a cultural difference between EU and NA. If mDKs are sticking with heavy on EU, they are probably responding to encountering different tactics and playstyle.

Ragnaroek93

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

Ok lets give us to test this. You are on PC/EU, too?

I allways like to give a feedback over duelling and not only with words. You will see what i mean, there was only 1 stamina nightblade in medium armor in last several weeks, who could win 1 duell with a lucky punch. All other were dodging to death...

I'm on PC/NA, i figured you would know this.

And you got bursted by those stamina nbs huh, hard to heal through those heal debuffs huh

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

This thread is not about you or how good you are in PVP. I'm sure no one cares about that. So give it a break on ego-driven arrogant posts and retorts, rather learn some humility before entering a thread with a reply that's crafted in such a way to discredit someone who has a lot more fighting and dueling experience than you ever will.

As for how good or bad DeHei is on his magicka templar, just don't man. You'll get melted in 30 seconds or less, guaranteed. Heavy or no heavy, it doesn't matter, the guy is a top notch magicka templar dueler.

Now enough about this nonsense, let's get back on track and actually discuss heavy vs medium armor in ESO, not Xsorus vs everyone else and how good of a player and knowledgeable Xsorus is. Simply put, if you got nothing good to add, be quiet 'mate'.

I reply to those who reply to me mate; and DeHei i believe runs almost the exact same setup as I do on my magicka Templar; think he swaps out wizard for VMA staff and willpower though; but i know the burst of overwhelming and valkyn skoria on a magicka Templar and it is very obscene.

I also know what pressures that setup. But I'd say given the burst he'd probably win 60/40 any fights we had. Depends on how often Templar burst and skoria hit at the same time.

as for your experience at dueling; you made a thread whining about heavy armor being better then medium armor while making all your builds medium armor; I take it you were found wanting in your duels against better players and decided to change the game instead of getting better.

Ok dude, now I'm getting sick of your bull*hit for real.

First of all, when someone opens a thread to explain why something is overpowered, it doesn't mean he's 1) not playing it himself, 2) has problems with it himself. Understand that?

Get that stupid mentality out of your head ASAP, it makes you look ridiculous and simply annoying.

The only person whining in this thread is you, when it's absolutely clear you have zero clue about; 1) what burst is, 2) how heavy armor builds are made, 3) how to fight competent opponents in such setups.

I've put up with all of your stupid statements so far, ignoring you in the hope of letting you vent out and move on, but you just don't know when to stop do you?

What other idiotic statement you want me to deal with now? How I say heavy is OP but play medium? If you ever bothered to read or listen to what I say, it goes like this, and I mention this in many videos, pay close attention:

- Heavy armor is stronger and more effective.
- Medium is more fun as demonstrated by decimus, not all players enjoy a tanky s/b setup.
- I like playing both but I often opt-in for heavy in order to last longer in those zergy fights.
- I have no problems dodging attacks, of any kind, be it heavy attacks or skills, perhaps @Ragnaroek93 can confirm my sorc playstyle?
- I prefer medium armor for a stam char, and as I said, I like it more than heavy, but that does not under any circumstances mean that I'm playing it more often or doing more builds around it.

You linking 2-3 medium armor builds, out of DOZENS of heavy ones that I did so far proves absolutely nothing. This is why I told you to stop spamming the thread with your nonsense, there is no point explaining anything to you, you are too arrogant to even read what someone writes, let alone consider it for a moment, hence the easiest way of dealing with you - can you please stop spamming the thread with your nonsense?

So now that we've established how your accusations are baseless, arguments ridiculous and the tone of your reply screams of someone who thinks he knows a lot more than he does, when other players tell him that he's wrong, what do we do next?

Hopefully educate you a bit further. Again, read carefully:

You are wrong. Heavy is stronger than medium. I played with dozens of great players and they all say the same thing, and I agree based on my extensive personal experience, having fought many battles in BOTH medium and heavy.

Just because YOU cannot make a good heavy build, doesn't mean that it's weaker, it just means that you don't know how to do it effectively. And that's all man, stop being offended when you're told that you don't know something. You don't. Get over it and for the last time, stop spamming this thread with posts about you, or how knowledgeable you are or whatever. You're not, you just think you are.

I can make an effective heavy armor build; in fact I told you exactly what classes will and can do it. Does it mean heavy armor has more damage and sustain then medium? No it does not.

You say you made dozens of heavy armor builds but I pulled directly from your own website of builds you posted in the past few months and they're all medium armor ones. I personally expected the dragon knight one ya did to be heavy but nope, it was medium armor as well.

When I point this out you cry that I don't know pvp and you demand others come in this thread to back up an argument you can't back up yourself.

But hey what do I know, you're the mighty euro player with vast dueling experience *grin*

I look forward to all your heavy armor videos and builds lol

DeHei wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

Ok lets give us to test this. You are on PC/EU, too?

I allways like to give a feedback over duelling and not only with words. You will see what i mean, there was only 1 stamina nightblade in medium armor in last several weeks, who could win 1 duell with a lucky punch. All other were dodging to death...

I'm on PC/NA, i figured you would know this.

And you got bursted by those stamina nbs huh, hard to heal through those heal debuffs huh

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

This thread is not about you or how good you are in PVP. I'm sure no one cares about that. So give it a break on ego-driven arrogant posts and retorts, rather learn some humility before entering a thread with a reply that's crafted in such a way to discredit someone who has a lot more fighting and dueling experience than you ever will.

As for how good or bad DeHei is on his magicka templar, just don't man. You'll get melted in 30 seconds or less, guaranteed. Heavy or no heavy, it doesn't matter, the guy is a top notch magicka templar dueler.

Now enough about this nonsense, let's get back on track and actually discuss heavy vs medium armor in ESO, not Xsorus vs everyone else and how good of a player and knowledgeable Xsorus is. Simply put, if you got nothing good to add, be quiet 'mate'.

I reply to those who reply to me mate; and DeHei i believe runs almost the exact same setup as I do on my magicka Templar; think he swaps out wizard for VMA staff and willpower though; but i know the burst of overwhelming and valkyn skoria on a magicka Templar and it is very obscene.

I also know what pressures that setup. But I'd say given the burst he'd probably win 60/40 any fights we had. Depends on how often Templar burst and skoria hit at the same time.

I play a very unique build mate
Its not to difficult to heal against stamina burst nightblades. Nearly all time you need to wait for fear or directly incap and then assassin´s scourge together with other burst. But this is the common combination. Trust me i can outheal that
A good nightblade will deal much damage over axe bleedings and weaponattack and skills to make much pressure allready and use that named combination to finish. The problem against my build is just, he cant stay to long in my areadamagefields

Next time i will upload some duells, if you are interested

Just make sure they're better then 420p, but your build is going to end up being the same as every other Templar setup. Delayed burst into skoria.

I know the setup, I know it's capabilities... pre patch I'd win most of the fights I bet with my burst, post patch you're going to win more for sure. Our Templar burst somehow escaped the nerf last patch. I was certain skoria was going to get hit.

Oh wow, you sure told me. Now go back to "bursting players" with your light attack > puncture > bash combo.

I'm honestly surprised you didn't ask someone else to come into the thread and reply with that. Probably got your response off discord *grin*

Hold on, let me think of someone who might appreciate this gem fully.

Oh I know, hey @Derra have you tried bursting those nasty shield stacking sorcs with that light attack > puncture > bash combo?

We have a pro player here claiming that it works great. Bursting players that is. The only thing it's bursted so far is my tummy from laughing rofl

You're a funny guy @Xsorus don't stop being who you are, you made my morning better today. Almost spilled my coffee but feeling much better, thanks.

Have you tried dodging those heavy attacks from those heavy armor users? Oh wait, you can't dodge them cause you're in heavy or is it medium..I can never tell *grin*

Instead of creating threads about how you can't win duels against a bunch of Wayrest players, maybe you should spend time perfecting your builds..and avoiding heavy attacks.

Would you say that heavy armor stamplar would be widely considered as shite by today's standards? What about a dueling situation with basic sets like heavy shacklebreaker + bp etc? Let's see what you know bud, speak up.

I ran heavy armor pre nerf on my stamplar, Not sure i'd do it post nerf to be honest; and understand I ran *** like Fury/Ravager combo for stupid amounts of weapon damage.

I think Stamplar probably does better post patch with Medium to be honest; this is coming from a AVA situation though. As for Shackle/BP, Could work i guess, I mean its kinda like Hulking/BP so you're looking at what? 42k stamina? Why would you not run medium armor is the question? you're not going to be blocking on a Stamplar and you're going to be running DW/2 hander nine times out of ten i'd say... So really all you're getting is the extra mitigation but losing out on a *** load of damage in my opinion.

Alright, since you want to see duels and you want to see me get rekt by those heavies, enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc9Dos673hA

Done?

As you can imagine, most of my stam opponents are in medium and we have some light armor with maybe 1-2 heavy users, which are still not a problem to dispatch due to the damage that I can achieve.

Also, pay special attention to the last 2-3 fights with the other stamplar.

That's one of the better stamplars on PC EU, his main character is a stamplar and he's in medium. I barely play stamplar (even at that point) and prior to that didn't play it for weeks, and of course, I'm in heavy. There is no way that you can tell me that medium is better in heavy in that fight, I won both fights without actually trying much and I had a much harder time killing him on my mag sorc (we had some duels before that).

My point stands. Medium is fun and can be useful in certain situations, it's just that heavy is better if you know what to do. There's more to a build than just armor type, and if you put all the pieces of the puzzle in the right order, heavy will benefit you more.

Shuffle on heavy is ridiculously bad design. You are building to take hits, adding another layer of mitigation on top is just wrong. At most there should be just minor evasion on heavy builds, absolutely 100% no major evasion in 5+ heavy.

Our fights weren't that unbalanced to be honest, I don't think that your stamplar is cheesy but you also don't run a duel build (which 99% of the heavy armor people at the duel spot do). Problems would start if you would add vampire, a defensive 2p set (would go for skeleton pirate), minor maim from SnB and major defile also from SnB. At this point I wouldn't be able to burst you and I wouldn't be able to do any pressure because I horribly lose every damage trade (I know a stamsorc who runs something similar to that and there's no chance to win against that).
I wouldn't rate heavy armor as that overpowered, it's just that you can overstack so much defense these days while still maintaining good burst, high pressure and good sustain (heavy armor obviously helps to overstack defense but it's not the only offender).

I agree on Major Evasion, that should get a rework probably. Ironically it's least effective on medium armor builds because you can't dodge something with Major Evasion while you are using a dodgeroll.

Cyrediath

im stacking 30k shield + major evasion on my light armor sorcerer and camping inside my mines with lighrning form. i think its much more defensive compered to heavy armor. Some builds perform very well. heavy armor is not a big issue. For stamina i also prefer medium armor. for magicka i prefer light armor. so instead of nerfing heavy they can slightly buff medium and heavy(only for magicka)

0utLaw

All the arguings in this thread are kinda like:

https://youtu.be/oOH5sAvgOBc

brtomkin

As some have suggested, you could indirectly nerf heavy and buff medium by adjusting the Shuffle skill. I would suggest scaling the dodge chance with the number of medium pieces worn. For example, reduce base dodge chance to 10% and add 2% dodge chance for each piece of medium armor worn. So, a player in 7 heavy or 7 light would only get a 10% dodge chance while a player in 7 medium would get a 24% dodge chance (sounds OP now that a type it, but.... maybe 1% per piece would work).

DeHei

brtomkin wrote: »

As some have suggested, you could indirectly nerf heavy and buff medium by adjusting the Shuffle skill. I would suggest scaling the dodge chance with the number of medium pieces worn. For example, reduce base dodge chance to 10% and add 2% dodge chance for each piece of medium armor worn. So, a player in 7 heavy or 7 light would only get a 10% dodge chance while a player in 7 medium would get a 24% dodge chance (sounds OP now that a type it, but.... maybe 1% per piece would work).

More ideas like that would be fine

olsborg

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

You guys keep saying heavy armor op but if zos nerf heavy even a bit heavy magicka builds will be dead. no sustain. no resource from heavy attack etc.. constitiuon giving 500 mag stamina every 4 seconds. ewuals 125 per second. its nothing...

I think people forget that heavy armor magicka builds were perfectly viable before ZOS even buffed heavy armor.
I bet I could still make a top tier magicka templar with heavy armor if that still interested me.

A lot of people underestimate the power of mitigation, especially when combined with strong heals (Rapid Mending passive helps a lot).

Also, Constitution is 540 magicka/stamina every 4 seconds with 5 heavy armor pieces - this equals to 270 magicka and stamina regen.

In order to get the equal of 270 magicka/stamina regen from Windwalker/Recovery medium/light passives (with 5 medium or 5 light pieces for comparison's sake), you'd need to have 1350 base stamina regen.

This means atleast 2x regen bonuses from gear and regen food/drink - so you're already giving up damage just to get even with one half of the "regen".


So no, Constitution is not "nothing", Constitution is insane when you put things into perspective and compare it to other armor types.

So the issue of this thread now isn't the "horrendious op" damage bonus from wrath anymore but the resource return and the mitigation? What exactly should heavy armor do? I always read opinions like "it should outlast but deal less damage". And that is what it does. Wrath pales in comparison to LA penetration + crit and to MA weapon dmg boost + crit.

HA does not even grant cost reduction. But it "outlasts" via resource return + mitigation.

Just some numbers on mitigation, legendary level. Only the armor passives activated, no additional set boni or whatsoever. Numbers taken from UESP build editor.

7 Light: 10.042 spell (15%) 7.501 phys (11%)
5 L/ 1M/ 1H: 11.656 spell (18%) 9.841 phys (15%) (chest heavy, legs medium)

7 Medium: 11.199 in both (17%)
5/1/1: 12.354 spell (19%), 11.991 phys (18%) (chest heavy, waist light)

7 Heavy: 17.431 in both (26%)
5/1/1: 16.210 spell (24%), 15.847 phys (24%) (hand medium, waist light)

So, assuming one runs 5/1/1, the difference between 5 light and 5 heavy is 4554 spell resistance and 6.006 physical resistance. But that all doesn't matter when light armors main defense is up: magickal wards. No resistances get taken into account, be it physical, spell or critical. Problem here is that wards tend to drop at critical moments.

Between 5/1/1 medium and heavy lies 3856 spell and physical resistance. But also 20% dodge roll costs. Having in mind that a dodge roll completely negates 100% damage and effects from dodged skills it's more usefull than 5-6% mitigation. Obvious issue here is that some devs thought it would be a good idea to have increasing numbers of hardcounters to dodge rolling.

Since you sacrifice 20-28% recovery, 10-14% cost reduction, 2191 spell crit chance or 1640-2.296 phys crit chance, , 4884 penetration or 12% weapon dmg + 20-24% dodge roll cost decrease + 15-21% sprint speed when chosing heavy over light / medium I think it's fair to have 5-15% more mitigation, 8% better healing and unshrinkable resource return.

I think it's rather clear that the devs headed into "outlasting" with heavy and damage with the others. So again, problem are not the passives but the sets. At least it seems so when you look at ravager, 7th legion and so on. They fill the hole the passives intentionaly left - damage.
But strangely enough this argument gets not taken into account when talking about defensive light armor sets like wizards reposte etc. that fills the hole in LA passives - dmg reduction.

Thats the comment i was looking for. I dont understand why people think heavy is op. Im pretty sure zos will nerf black rose again which already nerfed back to oblivion and most useless set atm.

Light armor has its shields that cannot be critted and can be spammed. Medium armor has good buffs for dodge rolling, running, offence. Just because you cant kill a heavy build doesnt mean they are op. They meant to be defensive.

So this guys saying heavy is op you wouldnt invite any dd wearingheavy armor to your trials right? so heavy is useless in pve for healers and dds. its only viable for pve tanks and some pvp build. But you want to be invicible with medium/light armor okay lets do that. and whata next? if you are medium you will claim light is op. you will want everything nerfed until your build becomes op.

Comments here are sooo biased. people say constitition gives you 250 regen that cannot be reduced with poison. why dont you also talk about having good amount of regen in light/medium which can be increased %20 + %20 + %15 +%20 (light/racial/cp/potion) so 2k regen becomes 3500 with buffs + for light armor people usually running resto on back bar which gives loooots of magicka return with heavy attack whereas my heavy mag dk dual 1h/s has no magicka return in heavy attack.

I have maxed light/medium/heavy armor dds and im having big trouble on resource management on my heavy magdk. wood elf nb/redguardnb/redguarddk this 3 stamina medium builds have no resource management issues. light armor high elf sorc best with resource management and also tanky with 3 shields 30k in pvp + mines + shuffle + streak.

Please tell me how heavy is op without being biased and with mathematical facts. please.

Mathematical facts? This should be fun.

Let's start with dodge roll. What's the problem with it?

Well, here's a list of basic skills that you cannot mitigate with dodge roll - they will hit you:
Puncturing Strikes (and morphs), Dive (and morphs), Radiant Destruction (and morphs), Dark Talons (and morphs), Petrify (and morphs), Aspect of Terror (and morphs), Daedric Curse (and morphs), Daedric Mines (and morphs), Lightning Form (and morphs), Spear Shards (and morphs), Backlash (and morphs), Scorch (and morphs), Impaling Shards (and morphs), Ash Cloud (and morphs), Wall of Elements (and morphs), Drain Essence (and morphs), Trap Beast (and morphs), Fire Rune (and morphs), Trapping Webs (and morphs), Caltrops (and morphs), Path of Darkness (and morphs), Agony (and morphs), Rune Prison (and morphs), Lightning Splash (and morphs), Volley (and morphs), Magicka Detonation (and morphs), Explosive Charge, Lotus Fan, Streak, Dark Flare (heal debuff portion only), Ritual of Retribution, Arctic Blast

And here's a list of skills that you can't mitigate with dodge once they've been applied:
Mages' Fury (and morphs), Sun Fire (and morphs), Eclipse (and morphs), Swarm (and morphs), Searing Strike (and morphs), Fiery Breath (and morphs), Cleave (and morphs), Twin Slashes (and morphs), Poison Arrow (and morphs), Arrow Spray (and morphs), Soul Trap (and morphs), Infectious Claws (and morphs)[Note: Infectious Claws is very, very difficult to dodge, but it's possible as per my tests], Entropy (and morphs), Volatile Armor

Bad huh? Gets worse:

Ultimates - Soul Strike (and morphs), Dawnbreaker (and morphs), Elemental Storm (and morphs), Meteor (and morphs), Dragonknight Standard (and morphs), Bat Swarm (and morphs), Consuming Darkness (and morphs), Soul Shred (and morphs), Summon Storm Atronach (and morphs), Negate Magic (and morphs), Radial Sweep (and morphs), Nova (and morphs), Sleet Storm (and morphs), Soul Harvest

And one ultimate which you can't mitigate by dodging once it has been applied: Lacerate (and morphs)

That's not all.

DW/2H Bleeds, Skoria proc, DoT set bonuses, lightning/resto heavy attacks - all undodgeable as well.


No matter how you put it, the vast majority of damage in the game is undodgeable. Worth noting though is that somewhat ironically stamina builds (apart from Warden & Templar) have the least amount of undodgeable attacks.

So based on this, we can lower any perceived practical value granted by medium armor's dodge roll cost reduction (20% with 5 medium). Not that it really matters, since the cost is stacking exponentially.

Just using the build I'm experimenting with atm (5 Hundings 5 Sheer Venom 2 Selene), here's an example of how many times I can dodge roll in a row (dodge roll cost 2585 with 56 points in Tumbling & 5 medium): 2585(+33%)->3438(+33%)->4573(+33%)->6081(+33%)->8088(+33%)->10 758

6 dodge rolls in a row and that's 35 523 stamina spent.

How about same setup in 5 heavy instead?

Dodge roll cost only goes up to 2973 as medium armor & CP modifiers are multiplicative.

2973(+33%)->3954(+33%)->5259(+33%)->6994(+33%)->9302(+33%)->12 372

So we "only" end up spending 5k more stamina dodging 6 times in a row, all things considered that's not a pretty big loss, especially when you no longer have to dodge roll the few dodgeable attacks left in this game thanks to higher mitigation.


...which brings us to the next portion. How much does the extra mitigation and healing received affect actual combat in PvP? Let's take a 100k tooltip Soul Assault as an example.

5/1/1 Full Legendary medium nets you 19% Spell Resistance

A 100K Soul Assault tooltip->28 571 damage/second, which gets halved to 14 286/second in PvP. We reduce 19% from that (let's assume there's equal amounts of penetration & armor buffs) and we get 11 572 damage/second on average.

Let's assume we're blocking (because what other option is there): -50% to that equals 5786 damage/second on average.

Now, my Vigor tooltip with 4461 weapon damage and 34 059 stamina is 14 997 over 5 seconds, which is halved in PvP (7499) - meaning 1500 health/second on average. We deduce that from the Soul Assault damage, and we'll "only" take 4286 damage from it through block.

Health Recovery (at 367 with 5 medium) also reduces another 642 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 3644 damage/second through block.


Now let's look at heavy armor.

Assuming the same setup (which isn't BiS for heavy, far from it), your Spell Resistance will be 24%, but your weapon damage will drop from 4461 to 4296.

14 286-24%->10 857-50%(block)=5429 damage/second

Now Vigor. With 4296 weapon damage, Vigor has a tooltip of 14 676. The healing received gets increased by 8% from Rapid Mending, so you get 15 850 health over 5 seconds. Halved in PvP & divided by five, we get to 1585 health/second on average.

5429-1585=3844

Health Recovery (at 417 with 5 heavy) also reduces another 730 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 3114 damage/second through block.

So heavy armor is able to mitigate 15.6851% more damage on average than medium armor after you count in Vigor & health recovery (Rally and any other self heal would further widen the gap).


However, the real difference comes with the sets available to heavy & medium:

Legion+Fury for example will net you a Vigor tooltip of 16029(+8%)->17 311, or 1731 health/second on average (+some small heals from Legion) - this leads to Soul Assault dealing an average 3698 damage/second.

Health Recovery (at 587 with 5 heavy & a set bonus from Legion) also reduces another 1027 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 2671 damage/second through block.

30.8155% difference to what a medium setup that goes all in for high heals/dmg (at the cost of sustain) would give you.


Speaking of sustain, let's compare those next:

With the medium setup, I have 1391 Stamina Recovery & 1091 Magicka Recovery.

With the same buffs & CPs, Legion+Fury heavy armor build (with the same monster set) gets you 1257 Stamina Recovery (a 10% difference) & 1091 Magicka Recovery. However, with 5 heavy Constitution can be considered equal to 270 Stamina/Magicka Recovery, so in fact you get more stamina & magicka recovery in a heavy armor build (1527 "stamina regen" & 1361 "magicka regen") than you do in medium, unless you get multiple set bonuses from gear (in which case if you're medium, you're giving up damage/healing for sustain and thus further widening difference seen above between damage mitigated/outhealed).

Surprise Attack in 5/1/1 Heavy costs you 2250 stamina
Surprise Attack in 5/1/1 Medium costs you 2066 stamina

A difference of 184 stamina.

Assuming you manage to spam Surprise Attack once every 1,3s (weave time with GCD) with no downtime, you'd need 313 stamina regen to get even, which is covered by Constitution alone in the comparison I made above, so you don't even need cost reduction or regen on jewelry to get even.


So yeah, just some little maths detailing why heavy armor is significantly stronger at the moment. I believe that if dodge roll was a more reliable defense, the cost reduction on that with medium could be used as an argument.

But even so, the amount of times you can dodge doesn't really differ (see above), so I do think medium needs significant buffs to get on par with heavy.

*kowtow*

Derra

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

@DDuke even tho i also think stamina heavy performs better in a duel, your comment is a bit biased. you never compare magicka heavy vs magicka light.

Also medium benefits more when you habe higher weapon damage. it fits very well for the sneaky gank build.

And for pve, medium crushes heavy armor but no one talks about it and no one asking for buff to heavy for pve.

Im sure you wouldnt invite any heavy healer or dd to your vet trial or vet dlc dungon group/raid right?

No, and I'll be the first one to advocate for buffing heavy healers/dmg dealers in PvE (which is probably a pretty controversive opinion). I mean, if I can competitively play a heavy armor paladin healer/DPS in other games, why not in ESO? Or a heavy armor using warrior.

But that has no relevance when it comes to PvP & should be addressed separately.


As for heavy magicka vs magicka light... I don't think heavy armor is worse than light for magicka. I said the same thing year ago, before heavy armor had even got the buffs and people were calling it a joke - and not only did I say that, I also made a pretty strong build to prove people wrong.

Granted, the clips in that video are from after the buff patch - but it was strong even before that (able to go toe to toe vs the meta stam DKs of back then). After buffs, it just became ridiculously strong (and has been nerfed over & over again).

What I'm trying to say is, with proper set combinations & experimentation, a strong heavy armor magicka build could easily be created (I have some setups in mind).

The power of heals & mitigation can't be underestimated (you can't tank zergs in light armor).

Well you cant tank zergs with heavy armor too if you are not using shield ultimate or completely tanky.

light armor penetration, spell resistance, magicka recovery, cost reduction is superior compered to 200 spell damage + 250 mag recovery + max health + healing. I mean when i see people comparing armors they are focused on certain sets. yes some sets working very good with heavy as well as light and medium. But if you compare just passives you get from armor (just armor comparison) light is way better than heavy for magdk for an example imo. Ive tried several builds on my magicka dk heavy but always ended up with getting decent sustain with a spell damage from 1.5k to 2k or getting around 2.5k to 3k spell damage with no sustain. And you know magdk doesnt have much burst compered to other classes. it relies on skoria, leap, meteor etc.

On the other hand my magicka sorcerer has very good sustain and really gopd damage and i feel much more tankier with hardened ward + amnulment + healing ward. with bastion i guess it was 30k shield in pvp and can be spammed always.

With my magicka dk light armor i didnt have any sustain issues either. i had around 1.2k mag recovery but no sustain sets. in raids with magicka ball and synergies + elemental drain i never run out of magicka.

With heavy magdk i cant stack that much regen or cost reduction or penetration. I really tried.

I do my own calculations and light aeems better on paper compered to heavy for mag dk. i dont ask for a nerf on light but i really dont want heavy to get nerfed because i know it will effect magicka builds more..

Well, I've always found magicka DK far too squishy in light armor. You get outnumbered or just encounter a really high damage player and your defenses will melt rather fast. But I haven't played magicka DK enough to form a valid opinion - all I know is that top DK players in EU are mostly running heavy armor atm.


That said, I can easily see a magicka templar in heavy armor still tanking zergs with proper setup.

You just need to get enough mitigation (i.e. 6 heavy 1 light all impen, & high enough sweep tooltip, Minor Protection from Restoring Focus) & high enough sweep tooltip for big heals (Soulshine could work, +Major Mending from resto off bar, Minor Mending from templar passive & Minor Vitality from Restoring Focus).

Add in 2x Shadowrend for 15% dmg debuff on target & something like 4/5 (5 on off bar) Draugr's Rest so that you get a nice 1k/second (atleast) healing circle with all those modifiers whenever you heavy attack with resto (which restores 5k+ magicka every time in heavy armor).


Just an example of a build I think would do better than any light armor build out there (haven't tested it yet).

You can also abuse Infused weapon & Absorb Magicka enchant to get the equivalent of 460 "magicka regen" if sustain becomes an issue.

İ guess magicka regen enchant with infused gives around 400 magicka and its every 5 seconds with infused. with perfect timing you can land it every 6 seconds (assuming you are not stunned and enemy is not far away etc etc perfect situation) which is around less than 70 magicka per second.

Btw i disagree what you said about magdk. as far as i can see, more skilled magdk change their build to light armor for vastly more sustain and huge damage increase (from penetration, critical +able to put some spell damage glyphs on jewelries)

I'm quite sure the cooldown is 4 seconds default, as with all other damage enchants. Only the buff/debuff enchants have 10 second default cooldown (5s with Infused).

I will test this when servers come back online.

Mag regen glyph procs every 4 seconds with infused. Not sure this is a bug or intended.

Tested this just now - has a 2s CD for my (atleast on the dmg part could not confirm magica gain).

pieratsos

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

As a Heavy armored magicka user since before the Imperial City patch, I disagree with alot of comments in here. I have stated before that light and heavy armor are both in a good place, but YES medium armor needs A SLIGHT BUFF. Just a little one, a huge buff would just set back the balance that ZoS is trying to create. A few ppl think it is the armor sets...this is incorrect, any character can use these hvy dmg sets by simply slotting weapons, 2 pieces on the body, and one accessory. I also disagree with any notion that the dodgeroll/shuffle combo is not an effective defensive measure. Mobility is the strength of medium armor and any good player knows this. The main problem I see is that most players dont want to think about positioning or plan attacks. They just roll in expecting to win and when things dont go their way they come to the forums and QQ and whine to the devs for a nerf. What ever happened to learning from failure? Theory crafting to overcome obstacles that you encounter? I understand being frustrated by getting whipped by another player constantly in duels or open world pvp, but dont just write it off as "they are using OP sets and need to get nerfed". Overcome the obstacles, improve your gameplay, and reap the rewards when you beat these so-called OP individuals through the power of thought and execution...

Not every character can use heavy sets. Its not just about using them just for the sake of using them.
Heavy armor comes in healthy jewellery meaning u have to give up ur main resources to run a heavy set. And its not only about finding a way to use heavy sets. Heavy sets such as fury and 7th legion require to constantly getting hit. They dont synergize with medium armor. Light/medium find limited use of heavy sets in general. But in heavy you can use those sets effectively and then just grab a light/medium sustain/dmg set to complete the build.

DHale

People that complain about heavy armor are mad because they want to be able to kill people in two seconds and move on to the next person. It already got nerfed once (constitution). When I say kill in two seconds they mean ambush, incap, surprise attack, or curse, frag, mages wrath, or power of the light, jab, reverse slice. Aka javelin, sweep, Jesus beam. 90 percent fall in two seconds.they are just mad they cannot kill the other 10 percent.

Vizier

More crit and Pen and resource return from medium armor would likely work...just thinking out loud.

Drakkdjinn

pieratsos wrote: »

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

As a Heavy armored magicka user since before the Imperial City patch, I disagree with alot of comments in here. I have stated before that light and heavy armor are both in a good place, but YES medium armor needs A SLIGHT BUFF. Just a little one, a huge buff would just set back the balance that ZoS is trying to create. A few ppl think it is the armor sets...this is incorrect, any character can use these hvy dmg sets by simply slotting weapons, 2 pieces on the body, and one accessory. I also disagree with any notion that the dodgeroll/shuffle combo is not an effective defensive measure. Mobility is the strength of medium armor and any good player knows this. The main problem I see is that most players dont want to think about positioning or plan attacks. They just roll in expecting to win and when things dont go their way they come to the forums and QQ and whine to the devs for a nerf. What ever happened to learning from failure? Theory crafting to overcome obstacles that you encounter? I understand being frustrated by getting whipped by another player constantly in duels or open world pvp, but dont just write it off as "they are using OP sets and need to get nerfed". Overcome the obstacles, improve your gameplay, and reap the rewards when you beat these so-called OP individuals through the power of thought and execution...

Not every character can use heavy sets. Its not just about using them just for the sake of using them.
Heavy armor comes in healthy jewellery meaning u have to give up ur main resources to run a heavy set. And its not only about finding a way to use heavy sets. Heavy sets such as fury and 7th legion require to constantly getting hit. They dont synergize with medium armor. Light/medium find limited use of heavy sets in general. But in heavy you can use those sets effectively and then just grab a light/medium sustain/dmg set to complete the build.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Crafted+Sets

Ragnaroek93

My main problem is that heavy armor and somehow light armor (light armor is in my opinion a lot harder to play tho) have kind of pressure protection and can only (or most of the time) die to massive burst while a regular medium armor build can just die to both, pressure and burst.

Medium armor just received a lot of nerfs over the time. Everything began with the Dark Brotherhood DLC when actually proc sets got released and when heavy armor got absurdly overbuffed (it was completely broken back then and would have got hotfixed two weeks after release if this would be a serious PvP game).
Things which made stamina strong back then were proc sets, heavy armor, Redguard and vitality potions. Everything of this is nerfed now and I agree with all of these nerfs. The nerfs which were too much (in my opinion) are Shuffle nerf and Unchained nerf, simply because this affected "normal" medium armor builds which weren't overperforming at all at this point. At the same time magicka got buffed by the changes to destro staffs.
With Morrowind defile effects got a boost while healing CP were reduced. At the same time proc sets (which kinda made medium armor viable and overshaded the weakness of it) were nerfed but only the stamina proc sets while Skoria wasn't touched at all and Shadowrend received a huge buff.

Right now I just melt in duels against good players (I feel like I'm the last player who plays at duels in medium armor semi active, the rest did just quit duels or ESO at all), my only hope is to spam cloak by using tripotions and stacking around 300 magregen over gear on top of that. My duel highlights today were against a stamina sorc who just hits major defile on me and I can't even outheal this stupid hurricane, while he is so tanky that I can't even fight back. The other fight was against a 30k health heavy armor mag dk tank who just blockcasts his abilities for 20 minutes, and of course, the damage (with skoria) is somehow high enough to kill me (I messed up one shade teleport after 20 minutes which killed me, my opponent just holds perma block, all I can do is using Fear to break it, use Incap for 6k crit but who the hell cares, he just breaks free and continues to perma blockcast all sh*t).
I see that mobility need to have a downside but that's totally ***, I'm not able to fight back against these stupid bruiser builds at all, there is basically no chance to win that and on top of that it's totally ret*rded to play these builds. You can't get punished for mistakes because you simply can't do any mistakes, every potatoe who roleplays as vegetable can steamroll with this nonsense. I'm at the point there I kinda hope that heavy armor gets completely destroyed simply because the game experience was so much more fun in Orsinium (when I started to play PvP at a serious note) when such idiot duel builds did not exist. I can live with giving everyone some mobility but this argument "I have a bit less mobility than you, that's why it is ok that I steamroll over you in a duel without putting any effort into it" is completely *** (lets not forget that duel builds work extremely well if you outnumber your opponent, so saying that these builds are bad in open world is simply not true, if someone disagrees with that I would really like to see him doing a 1vX against petsorcs and heavy armor bruiser builds - if you can't kill them in a 1v1 you won't do anything but cry if they Xv1 you).

I just don't see a reason to run medium armor at all against people who aren't potatoes (maybe in Capture the Flag a bow build in medium armor is good). Dodgeroll doesn't give much protection unless a zerg is trying to light attack you to death. Two decent player who sync some undodgeable stuff or some ground AoE from a group just melt medium armor builds. Mist form, Restoult and block give much better scaling damage protection than dodge does these days. I don't have awesome group utility or AoE either, so I'm kinda worthless for my group and should be better playing something else.

I don't see medium armor being a mobility thing too. That's more a bow thing, I would say a medium armor build without a bow is less mobile than someone with mistform or a heavy armor build with bow. I know that it is possible to make a medium armor build somehow tanky with SnB and tanky sets but these builds don't fit the identity of medium armor because you have to give up all your mobility and at this point the same build (or a similar build) performs much better in heavy armor, that's just a fact.

LegendaryMage

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

Ok lets give us to test this. You are on PC/EU, too?

I allways like to give a feedback over duelling and not only with words. You will see what i mean, there was only 1 stamina nightblade in medium armor in last several weeks, who could win 1 duell with a lucky punch. All other were dodging to death...

I'm on PC/NA, i figured you would know this.

And you got bursted by those stamina nbs huh, hard to heal through those heal debuffs huh

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

This thread is not about you or how good you are in PVP. I'm sure no one cares about that. So give it a break on ego-driven arrogant posts and retorts, rather learn some humility before entering a thread with a reply that's crafted in such a way to discredit someone who has a lot more fighting and dueling experience than you ever will.

As for how good or bad DeHei is on his magicka templar, just don't man. You'll get melted in 30 seconds or less, guaranteed. Heavy or no heavy, it doesn't matter, the guy is a top notch magicka templar dueler.

Now enough about this nonsense, let's get back on track and actually discuss heavy vs medium armor in ESO, not Xsorus vs everyone else and how good of a player and knowledgeable Xsorus is. Simply put, if you got nothing good to add, be quiet 'mate'.

I reply to those who reply to me mate; and DeHei i believe runs almost the exact same setup as I do on my magicka Templar; think he swaps out wizard for VMA staff and willpower though; but i know the burst of overwhelming and valkyn skoria on a magicka Templar and it is very obscene.

I also know what pressures that setup. But I'd say given the burst he'd probably win 60/40 any fights we had. Depends on how often Templar burst and skoria hit at the same time.

as for your experience at dueling; you made a thread whining about heavy armor being better then medium armor while making all your builds medium armor; I take it you were found wanting in your duels against better players and decided to change the game instead of getting better.

Ok dude, now I'm getting sick of your bull*hit for real.

First of all, when someone opens a thread to explain why something is overpowered, it doesn't mean he's 1) not playing it himself, 2) has problems with it himself. Understand that?

Get that stupid mentality out of your head ASAP, it makes you look ridiculous and simply annoying.

The only person whining in this thread is you, when it's absolutely clear you have zero clue about; 1) what burst is, 2) how heavy armor builds are made, 3) how to fight competent opponents in such setups.

I've put up with all of your stupid statements so far, ignoring you in the hope of letting you vent out and move on, but you just don't know when to stop do you?

What other idiotic statement you want me to deal with now? How I say heavy is OP but play medium? If you ever bothered to read or listen to what I say, it goes like this, and I mention this in many videos, pay close attention:

- Heavy armor is stronger and more effective.
- Medium is more fun as demonstrated by decimus, not all players enjoy a tanky s/b setup.
- I like playing both but I often opt-in for heavy in order to last longer in those zergy fights.
- I have no problems dodging attacks, of any kind, be it heavy attacks or skills, perhaps @Ragnaroek93 can confirm my sorc playstyle?
- I prefer medium armor for a stam char, and as I said, I like it more than heavy, but that does not under any circumstances mean that I'm playing it more often or doing more builds around it.

You linking 2-3 medium armor builds, out of DOZENS of heavy ones that I did so far proves absolutely nothing. This is why I told you to stop spamming the thread with your nonsense, there is no point explaining anything to you, you are too arrogant to even read what someone writes, let alone consider it for a moment, hence the easiest way of dealing with you - can you please stop spamming the thread with your nonsense?

So now that we've established how your accusations are baseless, arguments ridiculous and the tone of your reply screams of someone who thinks he knows a lot more than he does, when other players tell him that he's wrong, what do we do next?

Hopefully educate you a bit further. Again, read carefully:

You are wrong. Heavy is stronger than medium. I played with dozens of great players and they all say the same thing, and I agree based on my extensive personal experience, having fought many battles in BOTH medium and heavy.

Just because YOU cannot make a good heavy build, doesn't mean that it's weaker, it just means that you don't know how to do it effectively. And that's all man, stop being offended when you're told that you don't know something. You don't. Get over it and for the last time, stop spamming this thread with posts about you, or how knowledgeable you are or whatever. You're not, you just think you are.

I can make an effective heavy armor build; in fact I told you exactly what classes will and can do it. Does it mean heavy armor has more damage and sustain then medium? No it does not.

You say you made dozens of heavy armor builds but I pulled directly from your own website of builds you posted in the past few months and they're all medium armor ones. I personally expected the dragon knight one ya did to be heavy but nope, it was medium armor as well.

When I point this out you cry that I don't know pvp and you demand others come in this thread to back up an argument you can't back up yourself.

But hey what do I know, you're the mighty euro player with vast dueling experience *grin*

I look forward to all your heavy armor videos and builds lol

DeHei wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

Ok lets give us to test this. You are on PC/EU, too?

I allways like to give a feedback over duelling and not only with words. You will see what i mean, there was only 1 stamina nightblade in medium armor in last several weeks, who could win 1 duell with a lucky punch. All other were dodging to death...

I'm on PC/NA, i figured you would know this.

And you got bursted by those stamina nbs huh, hard to heal through those heal debuffs huh

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

@Xsorus hey man, maybe you do well with your build. The guys here are right, that you would maybe do more well with a heavy armor build instead of medium. If you dont want to do that, i will agree with you, that is working fine for you.
BUT the main problem with the actually changes of skills and builds, more and more people run with attacks and skills, which are not dodgable. For example i would easily destroy your build every time.
You would do much better with shuffle in heavy armor because of damage mitigation and more heal. Just ask LeonDeDefiler (PC/EU), the best stamsorc i know in PvP, how he is playing.
But this is just a tipp. If you dont want a change or just a test to become better, you dont need to change anything. In my opinion you can do better

I've done heavy armor; I know for a fact it wouldn't do better. I think I know from my own experience what works and what does not work. I've played this game for quite some time and can gauge what is effective and what is not effective.

As for you destroying me everytime; You're welcome to try mate.

This thread is not about you or how good you are in PVP. I'm sure no one cares about that. So give it a break on ego-driven arrogant posts and retorts, rather learn some humility before entering a thread with a reply that's crafted in such a way to discredit someone who has a lot more fighting and dueling experience than you ever will.

As for how good or bad DeHei is on his magicka templar, just don't man. You'll get melted in 30 seconds or less, guaranteed. Heavy or no heavy, it doesn't matter, the guy is a top notch magicka templar dueler.

Now enough about this nonsense, let's get back on track and actually discuss heavy vs medium armor in ESO, not Xsorus vs everyone else and how good of a player and knowledgeable Xsorus is. Simply put, if you got nothing good to add, be quiet 'mate'.

I reply to those who reply to me mate; and DeHei i believe runs almost the exact same setup as I do on my magicka Templar; think he swaps out wizard for VMA staff and willpower though; but i know the burst of overwhelming and valkyn skoria on a magicka Templar and it is very obscene.

I also know what pressures that setup. But I'd say given the burst he'd probably win 60/40 any fights we had. Depends on how often Templar burst and skoria hit at the same time.

I play a very unique build mate
Its not to difficult to heal against stamina burst nightblades. Nearly all time you need to wait for fear or directly incap and then assassin´s scourge together with other burst. But this is the common combination. Trust me i can outheal that
A good nightblade will deal much damage over axe bleedings and weaponattack and skills to make much pressure allready and use that named combination to finish. The problem against my build is just, he cant stay to long in my areadamagefields

Next time i will upload some duells, if you are interested

Just make sure they're better then 420p, but your build is going to end up being the same as every other Templar setup. Delayed burst into skoria.

I know the setup, I know it's capabilities... pre patch I'd win most of the fights I bet with my burst, post patch you're going to win more for sure. Our Templar burst somehow escaped the nerf last patch. I was certain skoria was going to get hit.

Oh wow, you sure told me. Now go back to "bursting players" with your light attack > puncture > bash combo.

I'm honestly surprised you didn't ask someone else to come into the thread and reply with that. Probably got your response off discord *grin*

Hold on, let me think of someone who might appreciate this gem fully.

Oh I know, hey @Derra have you tried bursting those nasty shield stacking sorcs with that light attack > puncture > bash combo?

We have a pro player here claiming that it works great. Bursting players that is. The only thing it's bursted so far is my tummy from laughing rofl

You're a funny guy @Xsorus don't stop being who you are, you made my morning better today. Almost spilled my coffee but feeling much better, thanks.

Have you tried dodging those heavy attacks from those heavy armor users? Oh wait, you can't dodge them cause you're in heavy or is it medium..I can never tell *grin*

Instead of creating threads about how you can't win duels against a bunch of Wayrest players, maybe you should spend time perfecting your builds..and avoiding heavy attacks.

Would you say that heavy armor stamplar would be widely considered as shite by today's standards? What about a dueling situation with basic sets like heavy shacklebreaker + bp etc? Let's see what you know bud, speak up.

I ran heavy armor pre nerf on my stamplar, Not sure i'd do it post nerf to be honest; and understand I ran *** like Fury/Ravager combo for stupid amounts of weapon damage.

I think Stamplar probably does better post patch with Medium to be honest; this is coming from a AVA situation though. As for Shackle/BP, Could work i guess, I mean its kinda like Hulking/BP so you're looking at what? 42k stamina? Why would you not run medium armor is the question? you're not going to be blocking on a Stamplar and you're going to be running DW/2 hander nine times out of ten i'd say... So really all you're getting is the extra mitigation but losing out on a *** load of damage in my opinion.

Alright, since you want to see duels and you want to see me get rekt by those heavies, enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc9Dos673hA

Done?

As you can imagine, most of my stam opponents are in medium and we have some light armor with maybe 1-2 heavy users, which are still not a problem to dispatch due to the damage that I can achieve.

Also, pay special attention to the last 2-3 fights with the other stamplar.

That's one of the better stamplars on PC EU, his main character is a stamplar and he's in medium. I barely play stamplar (even at that point) and prior to that didn't play it for weeks, and of course, I'm in heavy. There is no way that you can tell me that medium is better in heavy in that fight, I won both fights without actually trying much and I had a much harder time killing him on my mag sorc (we had some duels before that).

My point stands. Medium is fun and can be useful in certain situations, it's just that heavy is better if you know what to do. There's more to a build than just armor type, and if you put all the pieces of the puzzle in the right order, heavy will benefit you more.

Shuffle on heavy is ridiculously bad design. You are building to take hits, adding another layer of mitigation on top is just wrong. At most there should be just minor evasion on heavy builds, absolutely 100% no major evasion in 5+ heavy.

Our fights weren't that unbalanced to be honest, I don't think that your stamplar is cheesy but you also don't run a duel build (which 99% of the heavy armor people at the duel spot do). Problems would start if you would add vampire, a defensive 2p set (would go for skeleton pirate), minor maim from SnB and major defile also from SnB. At this point I wouldn't be able to burst you and I wouldn't be able to do any pressure because I horribly lose every damage trade (I know a stamsorc who runs something similar to that and there's no chance to win against that).
I wouldn't rate heavy armor as that overpowered, it's just that you can overstack so much defense these days while still maintaining good burst, high pressure and good sustain (heavy armor obviously helps to overstack defense but it's not the only offender).

I agree on Major Evasion, that should get a rework probably. Ironically it's least effective on medium armor builds because you can't dodge something with Major Evasion while you are using a dodgeroll.

Yeah, I never show up at duels with a full dueling build, that's the difference between fun duels and not so fun duels.

Dueling in ESO is fun, unless you're going up against a total counter build to yours, or someone who builds only for dueling for the purpose of shutting your own build down.

These are niche players and they only do that because they never have any success in open pvp so what else is left for them if dungeons aren't cutting it.

Although tbh, I like to fight those too. I like to push myself to my very limits, that's the only way to stay sharp.

Now, I also agree with what you told me the other day in game about undeath + bloodspawn combo.

I always knew it was strong (having used it for a long time on my dk), but in this current meta it's even stronger thanks to players having to run more sustain and drop damage overall compared to the last few updates.

pieratsos

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

As a Heavy armored magicka user since before the Imperial City patch, I disagree with alot of comments in here. I have stated before that light and heavy armor are both in a good place, but YES medium armor needs A SLIGHT BUFF. Just a little one, a huge buff would just set back the balance that ZoS is trying to create. A few ppl think it is the armor sets...this is incorrect, any character can use these hvy dmg sets by simply slotting weapons, 2 pieces on the body, and one accessory. I also disagree with any notion that the dodgeroll/shuffle combo is not an effective defensive measure. Mobility is the strength of medium armor and any good player knows this. The main problem I see is that most players dont want to think about positioning or plan attacks. They just roll in expecting to win and when things dont go their way they come to the forums and QQ and whine to the devs for a nerf. What ever happened to learning from failure? Theory crafting to overcome obstacles that you encounter? I understand being frustrated by getting whipped by another player constantly in duels or open world pvp, but dont just write it off as "they are using OP sets and need to get nerfed". Overcome the obstacles, improve your gameplay, and reap the rewards when you beat these so-called OP individuals through the power of thought and execution...

Not every character can use heavy sets. Its not just about using them just for the sake of using them.
Heavy armor comes in healthy jewellery meaning u have to give up ur main resources to run a heavy set. And its not only about finding a way to use heavy sets. Heavy sets such as fury and 7th legion require to constantly getting hit. They dont synergize with medium armor. Light/medium find limited use of heavy sets in general. But in heavy you can use those sets effectively and then just grab a light/medium sustain/dmg set to complete the build.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Crafted+Sets

Last time i checked fury and 7th legion are not craftable and they are both better than hundings rage.

Cyrediath

People need to know whatever happens players will exploit most strongest sets always. Everyone want to achieve as much as sustain and damage. If you nerf their armor they will find another build that works well and push it to the limits.

Also people need to know that this game is getting old so there will be much more experienced players and pvp will get harder. its not like old time when people domt know how to duel properly. now pretty much everyone knows something about skills/morphs/cp etc.

Yesterday i dueled against a templar. He/she didnt tell me what he is using but my 11.5k buffed tooltip whip hits him 1.5 most also i couldnt heal my self at all and yes i was using heavy armor with around 7.2k penetration with debuffs. My meteor (mages guild ultimate) hits around 3.5k . Ofc he healed through all of my damage easily while i couldnt heal myself. i can guess what he is running but imo its cancer.

Can you imagine all people running that build? Zos will nerf it but these people will come up with another build. This nerfs will only effect decent players. I was a decent player before now im spending more time duelling.

When zos nerfed black rose, trainee, desert rose etc etc i was really close to stop playing. Now black rose giving around 97.5 mag/stam per second as 5th set bonus which is trash imo.

Look at this in a long therm. Lets say zos nerfed heavy to oblivion. There will be lots of discussion about how light armor and shield stacking is op. Then how roll dodging is op. it will never end. If you think heavy is good then play heavy. if you want to play in medium armor then dont duel against that certain builds.

If you really believe heavy armor getting more damage + sustain than medium armor then try doing vet trials with heavy dps setup.

Yes medium/light has much more damage(light+medium) + sustain(light) + mobility(medium) + defence(light) etc. and yes heavy is more tanky as its supposed to be and yes again some heavy sets giving good amount of weapon damage which there is no equvilent in medium.

Only problem i see here is some certain heavy sets. There is no problem in heavy.

With heavy armor you sacrifice some damage (mundus glyphs etc) to be more tanky. wirh medium armor people also sacrifice damage and sustain to achive tankiness for pvp but medium armor isnt mean to be tanky thats why they end up having less damage + tankiness compered to heavy. Well built medium always deals more damage than heavy armor and its a fact.

I find heavy armor builds well rounded around survivebility + damage. If zos nerfs certain weapon damage sets for heavy slightly it will be accaptable but if they nerf heavy armor and if it touches heavy magicka builds it will be because of people in this forum. Thats unjustice.

Thanks.

edorfeus

Just buff medium so it would give 16% wpndmg instead of 12% and call it a day.

Destruent

edorfeus wrote: »

Just buff medium so it would give 16% wpndmg instead of 12% and call it a day.

i guess medium needs more defense/utility-options and heavy little bit less dmg...amping up the damage of medium-armor would completely thrash PvE-balance...

edorfeus

Destruent wrote: »

edorfeus wrote: »

Just buff medium so it would give 16% wpndmg instead of 12% and call it a day.

i guess medium needs more defense/utility-options and heavy little bit less dmg...amping up the damage of medium-armor would completely thrash PvE-balance...

heavy itself doesn't give a lot of dmg. wrath passive is trash, since you have to get hit quite a lot to make it work, and that means lose hp while doing it. it's just the sets that give you wpndmg. but if they would nerf wpndmg procsets, they have to do it carefully, because if they nerf them too much, there will be no point wearing them at all, since it would be more beneficial to just wear some set that gives you flat wpndmg bonus like dreugh kind, or hunding's. Or even black rose, which gives you flat 150 with other bonuses, though they were nerfed, but in case of proc dmg sets nerf they would look much better in comparison to a set that has mere 8-10% chance to proc for let's say 250 wpndmg after nerf for some miniscule 5-10 seconds.

Minno

Destruent wrote: »

edorfeus wrote: »

Just buff medium so it would give 16% wpndmg instead of 12% and call it a day.

i guess medium needs more defense/utility-options and heavy little bit less dmg...amping up the damage of medium-armor would completely thrash PvE-balance...

I'm not sure they need any:
- 1640 crit
- 20% Regen
- 15% cost reduction
- 12% WD
- 15% Sprint cost reduction
- 20% dodge roll reduction.

Given the way CP is spread out, I wouldn't touch dodge roll reduction. But I would stack sprint to get another 15% plus get 20% block reduction. That should even out the defensive side a bit.

For offensive, medium needs penetration just as easily as HA. It's also missing 551 crit chance compared to LA. So I'd buff the weapon crit to match LA at 5pc but since the weapon lines have penetration I wouldn't do anything to but that aspect of offense.

To seal up any holes, running shield of the valient seems cool; Adds 1206 Max Health, Adds 4% Healing Taken
,Reduces damage taken from players by 5%, Reduces the cost of Break Free by 40%. This way you can dump everything into block cost reduction CP, and then maybe add pirate/chudan combo or 2pc chudan for that extra tankiness. Then run sharpened + stack penetration.

Though then again the Regen gets messed up. Maybe medium armor can have a Regen similar to minor Magicka steal in that it stacks for each enemy you hit (up to a certain cap).

Drakkdjinn

pieratsos wrote: »

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

As a Heavy armored magicka user since before the Imperial City patch, I disagree with alot of comments in here. I have stated before that light and heavy armor are both in a good place, but YES medium armor needs A SLIGHT BUFF. Just a little one, a huge buff would just set back the balance that ZoS is trying to create. A few ppl think it is the armor sets...this is incorrect, any character can use these hvy dmg sets by simply slotting weapons, 2 pieces on the body, and one accessory. I also disagree with any notion that the dodgeroll/shuffle combo is not an effective defensive measure. Mobility is the strength of medium armor and any good player knows this. The main problem I see is that most players dont want to think about positioning or plan attacks. They just roll in expecting to win and when things dont go their way they come to the forums and QQ and whine to the devs for a nerf. What ever happened to learning from failure? Theory crafting to overcome obstacles that you encounter? I understand being frustrated by getting whipped by another player constantly in duels or open world pvp, but dont just write it off as "they are using OP sets and need to get nerfed". Overcome the obstacles, improve your gameplay, and reap the rewards when you beat these so-called OP individuals through the power of thought and execution...

Not every character can use heavy sets. Its not just about using them just for the sake of using them.
Heavy armor comes in healthy jewellery meaning u have to give up ur main resources to run a heavy set. And its not only about finding a way to use heavy sets. Heavy sets such as fury and 7th legion require to constantly getting hit. They dont synergize with medium armor. Light/medium find limited use of heavy sets in general. But in heavy you can use those sets effectively and then just grab a light/medium sustain/dmg set to complete the build.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Crafted+Sets

Last time i checked fury and 7th legion are not craftable and they are both better than hundings rage.

LoL...just LoL.

Even if that were true, 7th and fury come in jewelry. 3 Piece Jewelry + 1h/shield or DW; voila you're wearing a "heavy" set with no pieces of heavy equipped. You're welcome.

Honghua

LegendaryMage wrote: »

In a world where more experienced players than you play.

So you are telling me, 189 magicka and stamina regeneration from constitute is overpowered?
28% stamina regeneration boost and 14% cost reduction is useless right?
800 stamina saved and regenerated each second is useless, even if you consider rapid mending passive, medium armor stamina sustain is still superior to heavy armor and is much more reliable.
Heavy attack is interuptable and you have to take damage all the time to make an use of constitution passive.
And what about the 28% dodge roll cost reduction on medium armor? Which is essential against roots and other CC.

We are really playing the different games, otherwise i cannot tell, if people saying heavy armor grants more sustain and damage than medium armor are serious or just trolling.
Wrath passive grants 200 weapon and spell damage, but you have to survive 20 hits from the enemy and sustain that for all the time, otherwise you will lose it in 5 seconds. And its not like stamina characters could heal of for enough to sustain those hits, and the shields doesnt really have the heavy armor resistances either.
Medium armor passive grants 12% weapon damage, which it is easly around 300 permament weapon damage and 2296 crit rate on top of that.

People are trying to do math and compare the armor passives, but keeps ignoring the conditions you have to fulfill to actually get any benefits from heavy armor sets and passives itself.
Sure the resistances makes the difference and thats all and its not like its an earth and sky difference, because roughly only a 7% in damage mitigation, and dont tell people heavy armor grants more of X than medium because its absolute *** seriously.
Its not the way like you are doing the balance at all, it doesnt work like that if you keep comparing item/passive/ability that grants X in y conditions and the other one giving Z for permament.
Heavy armor sets passives sometimes works, sometimes NOT and this is a point, where they will never be as good for damage as medium armor, their damage buffs are simply not reliable at all.
Automaton set, hunding and Senche's Bite sets are eating any heavy armor sets alive in pure damage performance in real play and pvp since they doesnt require any extreme conditions to actually work well, like getting hit 25 times by critical strike.
HOW THE F would you do that, while wearing an armor that you mitigate 7% more damage only? HOW?

Honghua

DDuke wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Heavy armor was already nerfed.
Also, people have a DPS and sustain loss when they use heavy armor. If you think heavy armor is so OP, they why aren't you using it? Oh, right .. because you know your DPS and sustain will go down the toilet if you do.
#NoMoreNerfs
Buff medium, leave heavy alone.

There's another very simple explanation as to why some people don't use heavy (despite it obviously being better): they don't want to.

I, for instance, have mained "rogue" characters in pretty much every (MMO)RPG I've played - if you slap on heavy armor & S&B, you're not playing a rogue character, you're playing a "tank" character and that entirely changes how you play (and enjoy/don't enjoy) the game.


As to why heavy armor is significantly better (no, your DPS & sustain won't go "down the toilet"), here's some numbers for you:

Medium 5/1/1 with 5x Hunding's 4/5x Sheer Venom 2x Selene (a *very* high dmg setup) - 3911 Weapon Damage (with Major Brutality), 33,5k Stam

Heavy 5/1/1 with 5x Fury 5x Legion 2x Selene - 4926 Weapon Damage (with Major Brutality), 29,8k Stam


...well well, heavy armor gets more damage (yes, those sets are up close to 100% of time, even in 1v1).

And sustain in that gear is much easier than in damage heavy medium gear, trust me.


But yeah, I agree that nerfs aren't necessarily in order, it should simply be a matter of buffing medium armor as light vs heavy is much more comparable in terms of survivability & dmg.

A good place to start would be giving medium armor a reliable way of surviving that isn't mitigation/blocking (that's heavy armor's thing) - dodge roll is virtually useless these days with most skills ignoring it entirely.

Sure, 10% chance to get weapon damage, and 30 weapon damage increase stacking up 25 times for 6 seconds for each critical hit RECEIVED in pvp.
Good luck on that.