PVP - Any plans on balancing heavy armor finally?

Chilly-McFreeze

Derra wrote: »

Heavy is going to beat medium in duels 9 out of 10 times because it increases healing and HP while providing comparable dmg but less mobility. Also heavy armor sets are straightup better than what medium can offer.

Sorry, but I have to single this little piece out. You can't honestly say that 200 weapon/ spell damage after being hit nearly two dozend times is "comparable" to 4.9K pen + 2.2k spell crit for light or 12% weapon dmg + 1.6-2.3k weapon crit from medium.

Even if you only look at weapon dmg, all it takes for a medium armor player to reach 1.663 weapon dmg to get even with HA wrath passive.
At 2.5k weapon dmg, what is not unusual to sit at, Agility already outperforms Wrath by 100 weapon dmg/ 50%.

But for the second sentence, it's true. Heavy has stronger and broader damage sets to offer. That does not change the fact that it's rather independend from what HA passives grant damage wise.

Cyrediath

@LegendaryMage i know mage personally and i trust what he says. I know he is spending lots of time duelling people and testing builds.

I agree stamina heavy armor builds can stack good amount of weapon power. Everyone here talking about stamina heaby builds. But whag about magicka heavy builds?

What about 1h/s magicka builds. they cant get magicla with heavy attack and theu cant stack much spell damage nor magicka recovery. If heavy armor gets nerfed im pretty sure it will hit magicka builds more than stamina builds...

pieratsos

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

@Xsorus
The proctards you were seeing had most definitely shite healing. They had less than 30k stamina and very low weapon dmg to be able to achieve high regen. They didnt need the wpn dmg because of procs and built in burst to the stamblade toolkit. Stamblades always had the worst healing. That was never their defence. And even if they had a good amount of self healing they were still the most squishy builds in the game. They cant take a hit like you can. Do not compare them to ur build. They are designed not to take a hit. Not just their builds or medium armor. Their whole class is designed around dodging dmg.

There is a difference between burst and sustained dmg. Light attack, ranscak, bash existed before but it wasnt for huge burst. And at the current state of the game u are most definitely not going to burst anyone down with that. There is no comparison between that and a dizzying swing combo or NB combo.

You can get more mobility than them because u are a stam sorc. Not because u built for it. You didnt. You actually disregarded a part of the mobility ur class gives you by not putting streak on ur bar. Even heavy armor sorcs have super high mobility. NBs fully utilize the strengths of medium armor. You dont. I dont have a very narrow mind of what medium armor means. Im just looking at facts. SnB have passives that work better with heavy. Not with medium. Period. Thats not a debate. You are not utilizing the regen medium passives either. You are free to get away with 1700 regen because of dark deal and if u dont roll you can still take a hit because of impreg. Which you can use because ur dmg is taken care with procs and because of the fact that u can run low regen with dark deal. They stack 3k regen cause they f*cking need it. They cant take a hit.

You are the narrow minded here that cant see that ur medium armor build is a result of certain mechanics and sets unrelated to medium.

And do not compare black rose, fury with ur build. That two entirely different playstyles. Fury gives a fuckton of weapon dmg. You dont need that because of procs. There is no comparison. Thats what procs do. They negate the need of weapon dmg because they do the dmg for you. And they do it with burst which is even better. Impreg vs black rose its common sense which has the highest survivability. Try ur build in heavy. Or just watch fengrush. He did it for you.

And lol at ur example with the video. You just showed a fight from a time when the game was fundamentally different with different mechanics to prove ur point. Thats like making a hybrid build now and saying its viable because back in the day it was viable. Do you know how stupid that sounds?

Again, I run the proctard build on my stamina nightblade, you're trying to tell me what those builds can and cannot do when I bloody run the build. The fact that you're telling me that they have less then 30k stamina tells me you didn't run the setup ever, or low weapon damage. When I ran eternal hunt on the setup I had over 30k stamina as a khajiit of all things. And if the above poster thinks vigor and rally is bad healing I don't know what to tell ya. It's some of the best healing in the game for staying alive. It's extremely potent when your effective health is increased substantially by stealth and dodging as well.

As for taking a hit, they can take a hit, I've taken plenty of hits in the setup. Are they as tanks as my stamina sorc, no... but to pretend they can't take a hit is just silly.

I choose not to use streak on a stamina sorc because I've not needed it yet. When I'm straight up faster then most of the classes in the game I don't need it. Yes it would be useful there is no doubt. It is however not needed or required if a stamina sorc.

Which passive work better with heavy that you're seeing by the way? The only one that I can see that cross between heavy and 1hd shield now would be constitution, which ate a fat nerf and I don't need because I'm not setup to be block heavy. You're basically at this point saying all 1hd shield builds should be heavy armor only because you're narrow minded on its capabilities. It's like saying medium armor users shouldn't use the restro staff because they're not magicka.

Also I bloody switched from 800 regen to 1700 regen for a reason. You say I don't use it but trust me I use it because you can't always dark deal in a fight.

Also why are you saying I take a hit cause of impregnable, impregnable let's me run well fitted, if I was using another set my ass would still have impen on all my armor. This is true for all my builds. I don't skimp on impen and that includes my stamina nightblade.

Fengrush ran his heavy armor build pre morrow-wind, this made sense because black rose was super good and cost reduction wasn't removed from CP, you go try running my setup as a heavy armor version right now and tell me how you do mate. There is a reason all the former heavy armor users have swapped back to medium. There is zero way I'd touch black rose right now and be anywhere near as tank and mobile as a medium armor impregnable build. I get zero from it.. it is not worth running it as someone who plays the setup and is telling you how it works.

As for the video I wanted to show you that it's narrow minded to believe certain things should be a certain way in the game, and ironically hybrid builds at this point are the closest they've been in forever to those days.

No, i run the setup. You didnt. The proctard stamblade build is using eternal, viper, selene with gold food. In CP campaigns u will have roughly 30k stamina and in no CP (where the build shines) much less. You dont have to take my word for it. Just check the video of the guy who actually created the build or sypher's footage of using it. Regardless of that, u can use the dubious drink and get more stamina. You still wont have "extremely good healing". 1.5k vigor ticks wont save you when u are taking 5k+ spammables.

And no, u dont take full advantage of the medium regen passive. You have zero sustain through ur sets and u achieve a relatively low 1.7k regen. Stamblades push 3k regen. There is no comparison between ur build and theirs. You chose to incorporate other defenses into ur build that are not related to medium armor. They build around medium armor defenses only.

I didnt say snb should be heavy builds. I said it works better with heavy and not with medium. Snb gives you blocking capabilities that work better with heavy and not with medium. Whether you choose to utilize those passives its ur choice but you cant deny the fact that snb works better with heavy. Period.

Fengrush ran heavy impreg, viper, tremor when morrowind launched and in his footage he has the same dmg, sustain, mobility you do with the exception that he is way more tanky than you are. I told you that u are running a worse version of what fengrush ran.

I know what you wanted to show with the video. The problem is that the video shows footage from prety much a different game. You cant use it to prove anything now.

I tried to explain you. Your build is a result of mechanics and sets unrelated to medium that allow you to get a feeling of medium armor. You didnt build around medium armor.

I ran the setup mate; I know exactly what stats i had on the setup. I also don't tick for 1.5k vigor you're taking the word of someone else on that one *grin*

1.7k Regen is not super low, and it works when you're in full well fitted and have dark deal for example. I could achieve higher if I wanted to swap out viper. My main defense is Dodge roll hence why i run well fitted, we've been over this multiple times right now.

Again why do you think Blocking capabilities work better with heavy, please explain. I looked at his video, You are looking at a no CP setup with him doing BG's with his group. Do you see any post morrow wind videos of him running that setup solo? Why do you think that is? Why do you think he swapped out of it?

I told you what the setup is. The only way to push more dmg on such a setup is full dmg glyphs on jewellery which means less regen. But you need that regen unless you are zerging. Feel free to post ur stamblade footage tho in which you have extremely powerful healing and take a hit.

1.7k is low for the standards of medium armor. Period. You can get away with it because of dark deal. Stamblades running 1.7k regen are as good as dead. You are also getting away with 7 well fitted because of impreg. Without impreg, running 7 well fitted is going to get you dead.

Snb gives you blocking capabilities. I really dont how else to put it. Just read the passives. It works better with heavy cause blocking is the main defence while in heavy. Blocking in medium completely shuts down ur sustain. And you may not be a block build but there is no such thing as never blocking in PVP. There are way too many things that you have to block. Your video shows that. The only time you were under pressure, snb saved you.

His video of doing BG's shows a lot more than your video. Your video doesnt show you doing solo PVP either. Its just 2 minutes spamming ransack and never fighting more than 2 people that never put you on defence. If you think that this is solo PVP then i really dont know what to tell you. In fact in ur video the only time u had to go on defence it was when u took a soul assault. And you saved urself by blocking. That by itself says a lot.

Derra

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Heavy is going to beat medium in duels 9 out of 10 times because it increases healing and HP while providing comparable dmg but less mobility. Also heavy armor sets are straightup better than what medium can offer.

Sorry, but I have to single this little piece out. You can't honestly say that 200 weapon/ spell damage after being hit nearly two dozend times is "comparable" to 4.9K pen + 2.2k spell crit for light or 12% weapon dmg + 1.6-2.3k weapon crit from medium.

Even if you only look at weapon dmg, all it takes for a medium armor player to reach 1.663 weapon dmg to get even with HA wrath passive.
At 2.5k weapon dmg, what is not unusual to sit at, Agility already outperforms Wrath by 100 weapon dmg/ 50%.

But for the second sentence, it's true. Heavy has stronger and broader damage sets to offer. That does not change the fact that it's rather independend from what HA passives grant damage wise.

I was only talking about the comparison to medium in duels.

Regarding the comparable dmg statement i should have made it more clear that this includes available setbonuses for me.
On paper only looking at passives medium should be miles ahead.
In practice looking at numbers heavy is going to beat medium straightout most of the times because it has better sets and in practice defense potential is just as important as offense.

This gets reinforced by heavy defenses (heals) scaling with offensive stats wheres medium defenses scale on regeneration. In duels you want to run as little regen and as much dmg/heal as possible. Heavy is better for that than medium.

LegendaryMage

Derra wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Heavy is going to beat medium in duels 9 out of 10 times because it increases healing and HP while providing comparable dmg but less mobility. Also heavy armor sets are straightup better than what medium can offer.

Sorry, but I have to single this little piece out. You can't honestly say that 200 weapon/ spell damage after being hit nearly two dozend times is "comparable" to 4.9K pen + 2.2k spell crit for light or 12% weapon dmg + 1.6-2.3k weapon crit from medium.

Even if you only look at weapon dmg, all it takes for a medium armor player to reach 1.663 weapon dmg to get even with HA wrath passive.
At 2.5k weapon dmg, what is not unusual to sit at, Agility already outperforms Wrath by 100 weapon dmg/ 50%.

But for the second sentence, it's true. Heavy has stronger and broader damage sets to offer. That does not change the fact that it's rather independend from what HA passives grant damage wise.

I was only talking about the comparison to medium in duels.

Regarding the comparable dmg statement i should have made it more clear that this includes available setbonuses for me.
On paper only looking at passives medium should be miles ahead.
In practice looking at numbers heavy is going to beat medium straightout most of the times because it has better sets and in practice defense potential is just as important as offense.

This gets reinforced by heavy defenses (heals) scaling with offensive stats wheres medium defenses scale on regeneration. In duels you want to run as little regen and as much dmg/heal as possible. Heavy is better for that than medium.

You forgot to mention the buff to harness magicka, we gotta fix that skill.

@Cyrediath reveal yourself!

Qbiken

If anyone over there cares about PVP balance, I propose the following;

1 Consider tuning down offensive heavy armor sets, there should be no reason for me to run heavy armor and have more damage overall than in medium.
2 Restrict armor actives to their armor tree, 5+ pieces required to use that active ability. No more shuffle on heavy armor, in fact, major evasion in heavy armor probably shouldn't be allowed at all.
3 Remove the resource sustain from rapid mending, in what world does it make sense to wield a two handed massive weapon in FULL heavy armor and actually replenish your resources at an increased rate? If you were worried about pve tanks not sustaining as well, don't - they sustain perfectly fine in dungeons, and the ones that don't, need to work on their builds a bit.

1. I´m just going to assume you´re thinking of the Wrath Passive (correct me if I´m wrong). If I remember correctly they change it so that it gives less Weapon/spelldamage for each tick, but you could stack more of it?. A way to tuning down the offensive part is to change Weapon/spelldamage to physical/spell resistance and make it work the same way. Would benefit a tanking playstyle in both PvP and PvE (Make the Wrath passive work more like the Paria Set)

2. I´m not a fan of this since it hurts Tava Tanks in PvE. But there are more tankbuilds/setup other than that so I guess it wouldn´t be too bad. Personally I would choose 3 piece of armor required instead of 5 but no all against it. There´re more sources of major evasion+snare removal than Shuffle/Elude

3. I don´t agree with your reasoning (I personally don´t Think you can apply real-Life logic in all situations in a game), and I don´t Think it should be removed. Perhaps toned down a bit, but not removed.

Derra

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Heavy is going to beat medium in duels 9 out of 10 times because it increases healing and HP while providing comparable dmg but less mobility. Also heavy armor sets are straightup better than what medium can offer.

Sorry, but I have to single this little piece out. You can't honestly say that 200 weapon/ spell damage after being hit nearly two dozend times is "comparable" to 4.9K pen + 2.2k spell crit for light or 12% weapon dmg + 1.6-2.3k weapon crit from medium.

Even if you only look at weapon dmg, all it takes for a medium armor player to reach 1.663 weapon dmg to get even with HA wrath passive.
At 2.5k weapon dmg, what is not unusual to sit at, Agility already outperforms Wrath by 100 weapon dmg/ 50%.

But for the second sentence, it's true. Heavy has stronger and broader damage sets to offer. That does not change the fact that it's rather independend from what HA passives grant damage wise.

I was only talking about the comparison to medium in duels.

Regarding the comparable dmg statement i should have made it more clear that this includes available setbonuses for me.
On paper only looking at passives medium should be miles ahead.
In practice looking at numbers heavy is going to beat medium straightout most of the times because it has better sets and in practice defense potential is just as important as offense.

This gets reinforced by heavy defenses (heals) scaling with offensive stats wheres medium defenses scale on regeneration. In duels you want to run as little regen and as much dmg/heal as possible. Heavy is better for that than medium.

You forgot to mention the buff to harness magicka, we gotta fix that skill.

@Cyrediath reveal yourself!

Buff to harness?

Tbh i have not morphed annulment since homestead hit - so i wouldn´t even know if anything changed about harness

Cyrediath

@LegendaryMage im etmoon ^^

Im working on my new magdk heavy armor build. it is true that magdks have good ccs but against 2h people or people using immo. potions its useless. heavy armor magicka dks sacrifices their sustain and damage. compered to stamina heavy dks, magicka heavy dks domt have cheesy sustain or spell damage heavy armor sets. only few. Also no magicka return from heavy attacks with 1h/s nor from any class skill other than battle roar.

DDuke

Cyrediath wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

You guys keep saying heavy armor op but if zos nerf heavy even a bit heavy magicka builds will be dead. no sustain. no resource from heavy attack etc.. constitiuon giving 500 mag stamina every 4 seconds. ewuals 125 per second. its nothing...

I think people forget that heavy armor magicka builds were perfectly viable before ZOS even buffed heavy armor.
I bet I could still make a top tier magicka templar with heavy armor if that still interested me.

A lot of people underestimate the power of mitigation, especially when combined with strong heals (Rapid Mending passive helps a lot).

Also, Constitution is 540 magicka/stamina every 4 seconds with 5 heavy armor pieces - this equals to 270 magicka and stamina regen.

In order to get the equal of 270 magicka/stamina regen from Windwalker/Recovery medium/light passives (with 5 medium or 5 light pieces for comparison's sake), you'd need to have 1350 base stamina regen.

This means atleast 2x regen bonuses from gear and regen food/drink - so you're already giving up damage just to get even with one half of the "regen".


So no, Constitution is not "nothing", Constitution is insane when you put things into perspective and compare it to other armor types.

So the issue of this thread now isn't the "horrendious op" damage bonus from wrath anymore but the resource return and the mitigation? What exactly should heavy armor do? I always read opinions like "it should outlast but deal less damage". And that is what it does. Wrath pales in comparison to LA penetration + crit and to MA weapon dmg boost + crit.

HA does not even grant cost reduction. But it "outlasts" via resource return + mitigation.

Just some numbers on mitigation, legendary level. Only the armor passives activated, no additional set boni or whatsoever. Numbers taken from UESP build editor.

7 Light: 10.042 spell (15%) 7.501 phys (11%)
5 L/ 1M/ 1H: 11.656 spell (18%) 9.841 phys (15%) (chest heavy, legs medium)

7 Medium: 11.199 in both (17%)
5/1/1: 12.354 spell (19%), 11.991 phys (18%) (chest heavy, waist light)

7 Heavy: 17.431 in both (26%)
5/1/1: 16.210 spell (24%), 15.847 phys (24%) (hand medium, waist light)

So, assuming one runs 5/1/1, the difference between 5 light and 5 heavy is 4554 spell resistance and 6.006 physical resistance. But that all doesn't matter when light armors main defense is up: magickal wards. No resistances get taken into account, be it physical, spell or critical. Problem here is that wards tend to drop at critical moments.

Between 5/1/1 medium and heavy lies 3856 spell and physical resistance. But also 20% dodge roll costs. Having in mind that a dodge roll completely negates 100% damage and effects from dodged skills it's more usefull than 5-6% mitigation. Obvious issue here is that some devs thought it would be a good idea to have increasing numbers of hardcounters to dodge rolling.

Since you sacrifice 20-28% recovery, 10-14% cost reduction, 2191 spell crit chance or 1640-2.296 phys crit chance, , 4884 penetration or 12% weapon dmg + 20-24% dodge roll cost decrease + 15-21% sprint speed when chosing heavy over light / medium I think it's fair to have 5-15% more mitigation, 8% better healing and unshrinkable resource return.

I think it's rather clear that the devs headed into "outlasting" with heavy and damage with the others. So again, problem are not the passives but the sets. At least it seems so when you look at ravager, 7th legion and so on. They fill the hole the passives intentionaly left - damage.
But strangely enough this argument gets not taken into account when talking about defensive light armor sets like wizards reposte etc. that fills the hole in LA passives - dmg reduction.

Thats the comment i was looking for. I dont understand why people think heavy is op. Im pretty sure zos will nerf black rose again which already nerfed back to oblivion and most useless set atm.

Light armor has its shields that cannot be critted and can be spammed. Medium armor has good buffs for dodge rolling, running, offence. Just because you cant kill a heavy build doesnt mean they are op. They meant to be defensive.

So this guys saying heavy is op you wouldnt invite any dd wearingheavy armor to your trials right? so heavy is useless in pve for healers and dds. its only viable for pve tanks and some pvp build. But you want to be invicible with medium/light armor okay lets do that. and whata next? if you are medium you will claim light is op. you will want everything nerfed until your build becomes op.

Comments here are sooo biased. people say constitition gives you 250 regen that cannot be reduced with poison. why dont you also talk about having good amount of regen in light/medium which can be increased %20 + %20 + %15 +%20 (light/racial/cp/potion) so 2k regen becomes 3500 with buffs + for light armor people usually running resto on back bar which gives loooots of magicka return with heavy attack whereas my heavy mag dk dual 1h/s has no magicka return in heavy attack.

I have maxed light/medium/heavy armor dds and im having big trouble on resource management on my heavy magdk. wood elf nb/redguardnb/redguarddk this 3 stamina medium builds have no resource management issues. light armor high elf sorc best with resource management and also tanky with 3 shields 30k in pvp + mines + shuffle + streak.

Please tell me how heavy is op without being biased and with mathematical facts. please.

Mathematical facts? This should be fun.

Let's start with dodge roll. What's the problem with it?

Well, here's a list of basic skills that you cannot mitigate with dodge roll - they will hit you:
Puncturing Strikes (and morphs), Dive (and morphs), Radiant Destruction (and morphs), Dark Talons (and morphs), Petrify (and morphs), Aspect of Terror (and morphs), Daedric Curse (and morphs), Daedric Mines (and morphs), Lightning Form (and morphs), Spear Shards (and morphs), Backlash (and morphs), Scorch (and morphs), Impaling Shards (and morphs), Ash Cloud (and morphs), Wall of Elements (and morphs), Drain Essence (and morphs), Trap Beast (and morphs), Fire Rune (and morphs), Trapping Webs (and morphs), Caltrops (and morphs), Path of Darkness (and morphs), Agony (and morphs), Rune Prison (and morphs), Lightning Splash (and morphs), Volley (and morphs), Magicka Detonation (and morphs), Explosive Charge, Lotus Fan, Streak, Dark Flare (heal debuff portion only), Ritual of Retribution, Arctic Blast

And here's a list of skills that you can't mitigate with dodge once they've been applied:
Mages' Fury (and morphs), Sun Fire (and morphs), Eclipse (and morphs), Swarm (and morphs), Searing Strike (and morphs), Fiery Breath (and morphs), Cleave (and morphs), Twin Slashes (and morphs), Poison Arrow (and morphs), Arrow Spray (and morphs), Soul Trap (and morphs), Infectious Claws (and morphs)[Note: Infectious Claws is very, very difficult to dodge, but it's possible as per my tests], Entropy (and morphs), Volatile Armor

Bad huh? Gets worse:

Ultimates - Soul Strike (and morphs), Dawnbreaker (and morphs), Elemental Storm (and morphs), Meteor (and morphs), Dragonknight Standard (and morphs), Bat Swarm (and morphs), Consuming Darkness (and morphs), Soul Shred (and morphs), Summon Storm Atronach (and morphs), Negate Magic (and morphs), Radial Sweep (and morphs), Nova (and morphs), Sleet Storm (and morphs), Soul Harvest

And one ultimate which you can't mitigate by dodging once it has been applied: Lacerate (and morphs)

That's not all.

DW/2H Bleeds, Skoria proc, DoT set bonuses, lightning/resto heavy attacks - all undodgeable as well.


No matter how you put it, the vast majority of damage in the game is undodgeable. Worth noting though is that somewhat ironically stamina builds (apart from Warden & Templar) have the least amount of undodgeable attacks.

So based on this, we can lower any perceived practical value granted by medium armor's dodge roll cost reduction (20% with 5 medium). Not that it really matters, since the cost is stacking exponentially.

Just using the build I'm experimenting with atm (5 Hundings 5 Sheer Venom 2 Selene), here's an example of how many times I can dodge roll in a row (dodge roll cost 2585 with 56 points in Tumbling & 5 medium): 2585(+33%)->3438(+33%)->4573(+33%)->6081(+33%)->8088(+33%)->10 758

6 dodge rolls in a row and that's 35 523 stamina spent.

How about same setup in 5 heavy instead?

Dodge roll cost only goes up to 2973 as medium armor & CP modifiers are multiplicative.

2973(+33%)->3954(+33%)->5259(+33%)->6994(+33%)->9302(+33%)->12 372

So we "only" end up spending 5k more stamina dodging 6 times in a row, all things considered that's not a pretty big loss, especially when you no longer have to dodge roll the few dodgeable attacks left in this game thanks to higher mitigation.


...which brings us to the next portion. How much does the extra mitigation and healing received affect actual combat in PvP? Let's take a 100k tooltip Soul Assault as an example.

5/1/1 Full Legendary medium nets you 19% Spell Resistance

A 100K Soul Assault tooltip->28 571 damage/second, which gets halved to 14 286/second in PvP. We reduce 19% from that (let's assume there's equal amounts of penetration & armor buffs) and we get 11 572 damage/second on average.

Let's assume we're blocking (because what other option is there): -50% to that equals 5786 damage/second on average.

Now, my Vigor tooltip with 4461 weapon damage and 34 059 stamina is 14 997 over 5 seconds, which is halved in PvP (7499) - meaning 1500 health/second on average. We deduce that from the Soul Assault damage, and we'll "only" take 4286 damage from it through block.

Health Recovery (at 367 with 5 medium) also reduces another 642 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 3644 damage/second through block.


Now let's look at heavy armor.

Assuming the same setup (which isn't BiS for heavy, far from it), your Spell Resistance will be 24%, but your weapon damage will drop from 4461 to 4296.

14 286-24%->10 857-50%(block)=5429 damage/second

Now Vigor. With 4296 weapon damage, Vigor has a tooltip of 14 676. The healing received gets increased by 8% from Rapid Mending, so you get 15 850 health over 5 seconds. Halved in PvP & divided by five, we get to 1585 health/second on average.

5429-1585=3844

Health Recovery (at 417 with 5 heavy) also reduces another 730 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 3114 damage/second through block.

So heavy armor is able to mitigate 15.6851% more damage on average than medium armor after you count in Vigor & health recovery (Rally and any other self heal would further widen the gap).


However, the real difference comes with the sets available to heavy & medium:

Legion+Fury for example will net you a Vigor tooltip of 16029(+8%)->17 311, or 1731 health/second on average (+some small heals from Legion) - this leads to Soul Assault dealing an average 3698 damage/second.

Health Recovery (at 587 with 5 heavy & a set bonus from Legion) also reduces another 1027 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 2671 damage/second through block.

30.8155% difference to what a medium setup that goes all in for high heals/dmg (at the cost of sustain) would give you.


Speaking of sustain, let's compare those next:

With the medium setup, I have 1391 Stamina Recovery & 1091 Magicka Recovery.

With the same buffs & CPs, Legion+Fury heavy armor build (with the same monster set) gets you 1257 Stamina Recovery (a 10% difference) & 1091 Magicka Recovery. However, with 5 heavy Constitution can be considered equal to 270 Stamina/Magicka Recovery, so in fact you get more stamina & magicka recovery in a heavy armor build (1527 "stamina regen" & 1361 "magicka regen") than you do in medium, unless you get multiple set bonuses from gear (in which case if you're medium, you're giving up damage/healing for sustain and thus further widening difference seen above between damage mitigated/outhealed).

Surprise Attack in 5/1/1 Heavy costs you 2250 stamina
Surprise Attack in 5/1/1 Medium costs you 2066 stamina

A difference of 184 stamina.

Assuming you manage to spam Surprise Attack once every 1,3s (weave time with GCD) with no downtime, you'd need 313 stamina regen to get even, which is covered by Constitution alone in the comparison I made above, so you don't even need cost reduction or regen on jewelry to get even.


So yeah, just some little maths detailing why heavy armor is significantly stronger at the moment. I believe that if dodge roll was a more reliable defense, the cost reduction on that with medium could be used as an argument.

But even so, the amount of times you can dodge doesn't really differ (see above), so I do think medium needs significant buffs to get on par with heavy.

LegendaryMage

Qbiken wrote: »

If anyone over there cares about PVP balance, I propose the following;

1 Consider tuning down offensive heavy armor sets, there should be no reason for me to run heavy armor and have more damage overall than in medium.
2 Restrict armor actives to their armor tree, 5+ pieces required to use that active ability. No more shuffle on heavy armor, in fact, major evasion in heavy armor probably shouldn't be allowed at all.
3 Remove the resource sustain from rapid mending, in what world does it make sense to wield a two handed massive weapon in FULL heavy armor and actually replenish your resources at an increased rate? If you were worried about pve tanks not sustaining as well, don't - they sustain perfectly fine in dungeons, and the ones that don't, need to work on their builds a bit.

1. I´m just going to assume you´re thinking of the Wrath Passive (correct me if I´m wrong). If I remember correctly they change it so that it gives less Weapon/spelldamage for each tick, but you could stack more of it?. A way to tuning down the offensive part is to change Weapon/spelldamage to physical/spell resistance and make it work the same way. Would benefit a tanking playstyle in both PvP and PvE (Make the Wrath passive work more like the Paria Set)

2. I´m not a fan of this since it hurts Tava Tanks in PvE. But there are more tankbuilds/setup other than that so I guess it wouldn´t be too bad. Personally I would choose 3 piece of armor required instead of 5 but no all against it. There´re more sources of major evasion+snare removal than Shuffle/Elude

3. I don´t agree with your reasoning (I personally don´t Think you can apply real-Life logic in all situations in a game), and I don´t Think it should be removed. Perhaps toned down a bit, but not removed.

1) I actually meant real offensive sets like seventh, veiled, even fury and ravager. Wrath on its own doesn't seem to be much of a problem, but when you add 600 from here, 200 from there, or 700 from fury (or whatever the limit is), then all of a sudden with minor/major buffs you got over a 1k (easily) wpn dmg infusion that's pretty much there all the time in combat.

And since we all know how healing (and even shielding) works in this game, this is not very good to stack one offensive stat and benefit in all ways. Promotes really stinky builds.

2) You see that's what's wrong with the game's design from day 1. Shuffle should have never been available to heavy armor (or major evasion in general, evasion associates with rogue characters no?), if multiple passives can have a condition, the active skills should have 100% had a condition too.

Now all tanks are 'trained' and expect to have shuffle via one way or the other. I certainly don't care if I have shuffle or not while tanking a dungeon, don't see it as a necessity at all tbh.

3) The reason why that passive was introduced in the first place was because players were panicking that they won't be able to maintain their stam pools while tanking.

I'm sure there are always players that can't do it, but I can't remember last time a tank was consistently running out of stamina in PVE, at least not in the groups I played in.

So this is a perfect example of a passive introduced for PVE players, going under the radar but often over-used by PVP players who just went like 'oh hell yeah, give me those 50/25% more resource returns, let me just pump that up a bit in the cps and we done here'. lol

I remember when that was at 50%, bumped up a bit in the cps and had a mag dk with a resto staff, 2 heavy attacks with a resto staff and my whole magicka bar was refilled, that was just ridiculous.

Imo rapid mending should give about 10% healing taken and maybe 10% resource return (and I'm being generous here) if you really must have it.

@Derra yeah and buff to shield stacking. Just messing with you bud, I saw them sorcs triggering your allergies in some other posts.

@Cyrediath oh hey hey man, good to see you here! If you decide to switch to light armor and s/b, consider bloodthorn's touch, it's pretty much dk's amberplasm. I use it on the sorc now too, it's pretty good.

IcyDeadPeople

DeHei wrote: »

Buff medium armor in a good and balanced way and nerf some of the high damage HA sets like fury, ravager or seventh legion a bit.

Not sure it would necessarily be a great plan to nerf all the heavy armor offensive sets like ravager, rattlecage, seventh legion etc - these can also be very interesting sets for medium or light armor builds.

If it's a set of one of the other two armor types that you don't want to specialize in, the tradeoff is that it requires using jewelry slot and two of your armor or weapon pieces.

Instead require equipping 5 piece to use active armor ability, give medium additional phys pen passive (similar to Concentration), give light armor spell damage passive (similar to Agility) and make these armor passives including Constitution scale a bit higher with 7 pieces. It becomes a more interesting choice if you want to go full glass cannon light, glass cannon medium or extreme sustain tank, instead of 5/2 or 5/1/1.

This would result in light armor users with large shields (or those specced into blocking) having an edge over the other two. To address this would need slight reduction in base size of all the shields scaling on max magicka, possibly bastion as well (and shadow ward). The end result would be 7/7 light and medium both extremely high damage and somewhat squishy, 7/7 heavy extremely tanky but damage somewhat lower tier without penetration/weapon/spell damage.

Currently on live server, if you are not ganking, Medium armor playstyle in PVP involves a ton of roll dodging for damage mitigation. This is not easy and as much as people complain about medium armor proc builds etc, landing attacks in between constant roll dodge etc, is amazing to watch on some of the extremely skilled players out there. As others have mentioned, dodge roll has already been significantly nerfed over time, lots of attacks go through it, high cost for subsequent roll etc.

Light armor users either go with large shields + immovable for damage mitigation or blocking. This would not change, but should be reduced slightly as both of these options currently provide a bit too easy path to achieve tankiness + high damage output at the same time.

If you tweak the medium/light passives this way, heavy armor damage mitigation can remain high, sustain remains high, even fury and all the heavy armor offensive set damage remains as is, but heavy will be on slightly lower tier of damage output.

Cyrediath

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

You guys keep saying heavy armor op but if zos nerf heavy even a bit heavy magicka builds will be dead. no sustain. no resource from heavy attack etc.. constitiuon giving 500 mag stamina every 4 seconds. ewuals 125 per second. its nothing...

I think people forget that heavy armor magicka builds were perfectly viable before ZOS even buffed heavy armor.
I bet I could still make a top tier magicka templar with heavy armor if that still interested me.

A lot of people underestimate the power of mitigation, especially when combined with strong heals (Rapid Mending passive helps a lot).

Also, Constitution is 540 magicka/stamina every 4 seconds with 5 heavy armor pieces - this equals to 270 magicka and stamina regen.

In order to get the equal of 270 magicka/stamina regen from Windwalker/Recovery medium/light passives (with 5 medium or 5 light pieces for comparison's sake), you'd need to have 1350 base stamina regen.

This means atleast 2x regen bonuses from gear and regen food/drink - so you're already giving up damage just to get even with one half of the "regen".


So no, Constitution is not "nothing", Constitution is insane when you put things into perspective and compare it to other armor types.

So the issue of this thread now isn't the "horrendious op" damage bonus from wrath anymore but the resource return and the mitigation? What exactly should heavy armor do? I always read opinions like "it should outlast but deal less damage". And that is what it does. Wrath pales in comparison to LA penetration + crit and to MA weapon dmg boost + crit.

HA does not even grant cost reduction. But it "outlasts" via resource return + mitigation.

Just some numbers on mitigation, legendary level. Only the armor passives activated, no additional set boni or whatsoever. Numbers taken from UESP build editor.

7 Light: 10.042 spell (15%) 7.501 phys (11%)
5 L/ 1M/ 1H: 11.656 spell (18%) 9.841 phys (15%) (chest heavy, legs medium)

7 Medium: 11.199 in both (17%)
5/1/1: 12.354 spell (19%), 11.991 phys (18%) (chest heavy, waist light)

7 Heavy: 17.431 in both (26%)
5/1/1: 16.210 spell (24%), 15.847 phys (24%) (hand medium, waist light)

So, assuming one runs 5/1/1, the difference between 5 light and 5 heavy is 4554 spell resistance and 6.006 physical resistance. But that all doesn't matter when light armors main defense is up: magickal wards. No resistances get taken into account, be it physical, spell or critical. Problem here is that wards tend to drop at critical moments.

Between 5/1/1 medium and heavy lies 3856 spell and physical resistance. But also 20% dodge roll costs. Having in mind that a dodge roll completely negates 100% damage and effects from dodged skills it's more usefull than 5-6% mitigation. Obvious issue here is that some devs thought it would be a good idea to have increasing numbers of hardcounters to dodge rolling.

Since you sacrifice 20-28% recovery, 10-14% cost reduction, 2191 spell crit chance or 1640-2.296 phys crit chance, , 4884 penetration or 12% weapon dmg + 20-24% dodge roll cost decrease + 15-21% sprint speed when chosing heavy over light / medium I think it's fair to have 5-15% more mitigation, 8% better healing and unshrinkable resource return.

I think it's rather clear that the devs headed into "outlasting" with heavy and damage with the others. So again, problem are not the passives but the sets. At least it seems so when you look at ravager, 7th legion and so on. They fill the hole the passives intentionaly left - damage.
But strangely enough this argument gets not taken into account when talking about defensive light armor sets like wizards reposte etc. that fills the hole in LA passives - dmg reduction.

Thats the comment i was looking for. I dont understand why people think heavy is op. Im pretty sure zos will nerf black rose again which already nerfed back to oblivion and most useless set atm.

Light armor has its shields that cannot be critted and can be spammed. Medium armor has good buffs for dodge rolling, running, offence. Just because you cant kill a heavy build doesnt mean they are op. They meant to be defensive.

So this guys saying heavy is op you wouldnt invite any dd wearingheavy armor to your trials right? so heavy is useless in pve for healers and dds. its only viable for pve tanks and some pvp build. But you want to be invicible with medium/light armor okay lets do that. and whata next? if you are medium you will claim light is op. you will want everything nerfed until your build becomes op.

Comments here are sooo biased. people say constitition gives you 250 regen that cannot be reduced with poison. why dont you also talk about having good amount of regen in light/medium which can be increased %20 + %20 + %15 +%20 (light/racial/cp/potion) so 2k regen becomes 3500 with buffs + for light armor people usually running resto on back bar which gives loooots of magicka return with heavy attack whereas my heavy mag dk dual 1h/s has no magicka return in heavy attack.

I have maxed light/medium/heavy armor dds and im having big trouble on resource management on my heavy magdk. wood elf nb/redguardnb/redguarddk this 3 stamina medium builds have no resource management issues. light armor high elf sorc best with resource management and also tanky with 3 shields 30k in pvp + mines + shuffle + streak.

Please tell me how heavy is op without being biased and with mathematical facts. please.

Mathematical facts? This should be fun.

Let's start with dodge roll. What's the problem with it?

Well, here's a list of basic skills that you cannot mitigate with dodge roll - they will hit you:
Puncturing Strikes (and morphs), Dive (and morphs), Radiant Destruction (and morphs), Dark Talons (and morphs), Petrify (and morphs), Aspect of Terror (and morphs), Daedric Curse (and morphs), Daedric Mines (and morphs), Lightning Form (and morphs), Spear Shards (and morphs), Backlash (and morphs), Scorch (and morphs), Impaling Shards (and morphs), Ash Cloud (and morphs), Wall of Elements (and morphs), Drain Essence (and morphs), Trap Beast (and morphs), Fire Rune (and morphs), Trapping Webs (and morphs), Caltrops (and morphs), Path of Darkness (and morphs), Agony (and morphs), Rune Prison (and morphs), Lightning Splash (and morphs), Volley (and morphs), Magicka Detonation (and morphs), Explosive Charge, Lotus Fan, Streak, Dark Flare (heal debuff portion only), Ritual of Retribution, Arctic Blast

And here's a list of skills that you can't mitigate with dodge once they've been applied:
Mages' Fury (and morphs), Sun Fire (and morphs), Eclipse (and morphs), Swarm (and morphs), Searing Strike (and morphs), Fiery Breath (and morphs), Cleave (and morphs), Twin Slashes (and morphs), Poison Arrow (and morphs), Arrow Spray (and morphs), Soul Trap (and morphs), Infectious Claws (and morphs)[Note: Infectious Claws is very, very difficult to dodge, but it's possible as per my tests], Entropy (and morphs), Volatile Armor

Bad huh? Gets worse:

Ultimates - Soul Strike (and morphs), Dawnbreaker (and morphs), Elemental Storm (and morphs), Meteor (and morphs), Dragonknight Standard (and morphs), Bat Swarm (and morphs), Consuming Darkness (and morphs), Soul Shred (and morphs), Summon Storm Atronach (and morphs), Negate Magic (and morphs), Radial Sweep (and morphs), Nova (and morphs), Sleet Storm (and morphs), Soul Harvest

And one ultimate which you can't mitigate by dodging once it has been applied: Lacerate (and morphs)

That's not all.

DW/2H Bleeds, Skoria proc, DoT set bonuses, lightning/resto heavy attacks - all undodgeable as well.


No matter how you put it, the vast majority of damage in the game is undodgeable. Worth noting though is that somewhat ironically stamina builds (apart from Warden & Templar) have the least amount of undodgeable attacks.

So based on this, we can lower any perceived practical value granted by medium armor's dodge roll cost reduction (20% with 5 medium). Not that it really matters, since the cost is stacking exponentially.

Just using the build I'm experimenting with atm (5 Hundings 5 Sheer Venom 2 Selene), here's an example of how many times I can dodge roll in a row (dodge roll cost 2585 with 56 points in Tumbling & 5 medium): 2585(+33%)->3438(+33%)->4573(+33%)->6081(+33%)->8088(+33%)->10 758

6 dodge rolls in a row and that's 35 523 stamina spent.

How about same setup in 5 heavy instead?

Dodge roll cost only goes up to 2973 as medium armor & CP modifiers are multiplicative.

2973(+33%)->3954(+33%)->5259(+33%)->6994(+33%)->9302(+33%)->12 372

So we "only" end up spending 5k more stamina dodging 6 times in a row, all things considered that's not a pretty big loss, especially when you no longer have to dodge roll the few dodgeable attacks left in this game thanks to higher mitigation.


...which brings us to the next portion. How much does the extra mitigation and healing received affect actual combat in PvP? Let's take a 100k tooltip Soul Assault as an example.

5/1/1 Full Legendary medium nets you 19% Spell Resistance

A 100K Soul Assault tooltip->28 571 damage/second, which gets halved to 14 286/second in PvP. We reduce 19% from that (let's assume there's equal amounts of penetration & armor buffs) and we get 11 572 damage/second on average.

Let's assume we're blocking (because what other option is there): -50% to that equals 5786 damage/second on average.

Now, my Vigor tooltip with 4461 weapon damage and 34 059 stamina is 14 997 over 5 seconds, which is halved in PvP (7499) - meaning 1500 health/second on average. We deduce that from the Soul Assault damage, and we'll "only" take 4286 damage from it through block.

Health Recovery (at 367 with 5 medium) also reduces another 642 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 3644 damage/second through block.


Now let's look at heavy armor.

Assuming the same setup (which isn't BiS for heavy, far from it), your Spell Resistance will be 24%, but your weapon damage will drop from 4461 to 4296.

14 286-24%->10 857-50%(block)=5429 damage/second

Now Vigor. With 4296 weapon damage, Vigor has a tooltip of 14 676. The healing received gets increased by 8% from Rapid Mending, so you get 15 850 health over 5 seconds. Halved in PvP & divided by five, we get to 1585 health/second on average.

5429-1585=3844

Health Recovery (at 417 with 5 heavy) also reduces another 730 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 3114 damage/second through block.

So heavy armor is able to mitigate 15.6851% more damage on average than medium armor after you count in Vigor & health recovery (Rally and any other self heal would further widen the gap).


However, the real difference comes with the sets available to heavy & medium:

Legion+Fury for example will net you a Vigor tooltip of 16029(+8%)->17 311, or 1731 health/second on average (+some small heals from Legion) - this leads to Soul Assault dealing an average 3698 damage/second.

Health Recovery (at 587 with 5 heavy & a set bonus from Legion) also reduces another 1027 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 2671 damage/second through block.

30.8155% difference to what a medium setup that goes all in for high heals/dmg (at the cost of sustain) would give you.


Speaking of sustain, let's compare those next:

With the medium setup, I have 1391 Stamina Recovery & 1091 Magicka Recovery.

With the same buffs & CPs, Legion+Fury heavy armor build (with the same monster set) gets you 1257 Stamina Recovery (a 10% difference) & 1091 Magicka Recovery. However, with 5 heavy Constitution can be considered equal to 270 Stamina/Magicka Recovery, so in fact you get more stamina & magicka recovery in a heavy armor build (1527 "stamina regen" & 1361 "magicka regen") than you do in medium, unless you get multiple set bonuses from gear (in which case if you're medium, you're giving up damage/healing for sustain and thus further widening difference seen above between damage mitigated/outhealed).

Surprise Attack in 5/1/1 Heavy costs you 2250 stamina
Surprise Attack in 5/1/1 Medium costs you 2066 stamina

A difference of 184 stamina.

Assuming you manage to spam Surprise Attack once every 1,3s (weave time with GCD) with no downtime, you'd need 313 stamina regen to get even, which is covered by Constitution alone in the comparison I made above, so you don't even need cost reduction or regen on jewelry to get even.


So yeah, just some little maths detailing why heavy armor is significantly stronger at the moment. I believe that if dodge roll was a more reliable defense, the cost reduction on that with medium could be used as an argument.

But even so, the amount of times you can dodge doesn't really differ (see above), so I do think medium needs significant buffs to get on par with heavy.

These are all medium-heavy stsmina comparison. as i stated for stamina heavy is more beneficial. And i said earlier that heavy magicka builds are having hard time and if they nerf heavy armor, magicka builds will suffer more.

LegendaryMage

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

You guys keep saying heavy armor op but if zos nerf heavy even a bit heavy magicka builds will be dead. no sustain. no resource from heavy attack etc.. constitiuon giving 500 mag stamina every 4 seconds. ewuals 125 per second. its nothing...

I think people forget that heavy armor magicka builds were perfectly viable before ZOS even buffed heavy armor.
I bet I could still make a top tier magicka templar with heavy armor if that still interested me.

A lot of people underestimate the power of mitigation, especially when combined with strong heals (Rapid Mending passive helps a lot).

Also, Constitution is 540 magicka/stamina every 4 seconds with 5 heavy armor pieces - this equals to 270 magicka and stamina regen.

In order to get the equal of 270 magicka/stamina regen from Windwalker/Recovery medium/light passives (with 5 medium or 5 light pieces for comparison's sake), you'd need to have 1350 base stamina regen.

This means atleast 2x regen bonuses from gear and regen food/drink - so you're already giving up damage just to get even with one half of the "regen".


So no, Constitution is not "nothing", Constitution is insane when you put things into perspective and compare it to other armor types.

So the issue of this thread now isn't the "horrendious op" damage bonus from wrath anymore but the resource return and the mitigation? What exactly should heavy armor do? I always read opinions like "it should outlast but deal less damage". And that is what it does. Wrath pales in comparison to LA penetration + crit and to MA weapon dmg boost + crit.

HA does not even grant cost reduction. But it "outlasts" via resource return + mitigation.

Just some numbers on mitigation, legendary level. Only the armor passives activated, no additional set boni or whatsoever. Numbers taken from UESP build editor.

7 Light: 10.042 spell (15%) 7.501 phys (11%)
5 L/ 1M/ 1H: 11.656 spell (18%) 9.841 phys (15%) (chest heavy, legs medium)

7 Medium: 11.199 in both (17%)
5/1/1: 12.354 spell (19%), 11.991 phys (18%) (chest heavy, waist light)

7 Heavy: 17.431 in both (26%)
5/1/1: 16.210 spell (24%), 15.847 phys (24%) (hand medium, waist light)

So, assuming one runs 5/1/1, the difference between 5 light and 5 heavy is 4554 spell resistance and 6.006 physical resistance. But that all doesn't matter when light armors main defense is up: magickal wards. No resistances get taken into account, be it physical, spell or critical. Problem here is that wards tend to drop at critical moments.

Between 5/1/1 medium and heavy lies 3856 spell and physical resistance. But also 20% dodge roll costs. Having in mind that a dodge roll completely negates 100% damage and effects from dodged skills it's more usefull than 5-6% mitigation. Obvious issue here is that some devs thought it would be a good idea to have increasing numbers of hardcounters to dodge rolling.

Since you sacrifice 20-28% recovery, 10-14% cost reduction, 2191 spell crit chance or 1640-2.296 phys crit chance, , 4884 penetration or 12% weapon dmg + 20-24% dodge roll cost decrease + 15-21% sprint speed when chosing heavy over light / medium I think it's fair to have 5-15% more mitigation, 8% better healing and unshrinkable resource return.

I think it's rather clear that the devs headed into "outlasting" with heavy and damage with the others. So again, problem are not the passives but the sets. At least it seems so when you look at ravager, 7th legion and so on. They fill the hole the passives intentionaly left - damage.
But strangely enough this argument gets not taken into account when talking about defensive light armor sets like wizards reposte etc. that fills the hole in LA passives - dmg reduction.

Thats the comment i was looking for. I dont understand why people think heavy is op. Im pretty sure zos will nerf black rose again which already nerfed back to oblivion and most useless set atm.

Light armor has its shields that cannot be critted and can be spammed. Medium armor has good buffs for dodge rolling, running, offence. Just because you cant kill a heavy build doesnt mean they are op. They meant to be defensive.

So this guys saying heavy is op you wouldnt invite any dd wearingheavy armor to your trials right? so heavy is useless in pve for healers and dds. its only viable for pve tanks and some pvp build. But you want to be invicible with medium/light armor okay lets do that. and whata next? if you are medium you will claim light is op. you will want everything nerfed until your build becomes op.

Comments here are sooo biased. people say constitition gives you 250 regen that cannot be reduced with poison. why dont you also talk about having good amount of regen in light/medium which can be increased %20 + %20 + %15 +%20 (light/racial/cp/potion) so 2k regen becomes 3500 with buffs + for light armor people usually running resto on back bar which gives loooots of magicka return with heavy attack whereas my heavy mag dk dual 1h/s has no magicka return in heavy attack.

I have maxed light/medium/heavy armor dds and im having big trouble on resource management on my heavy magdk. wood elf nb/redguardnb/redguarddk this 3 stamina medium builds have no resource management issues. light armor high elf sorc best with resource management and also tanky with 3 shields 30k in pvp + mines + shuffle + streak.

Please tell me how heavy is op without being biased and with mathematical facts. please.

Mathematical facts? This should be fun.

Let's start with dodge roll. What's the problem with it?

Well, here's a list of basic skills that you cannot mitigate with dodge roll - they will hit you:
Puncturing Strikes (and morphs), Dive (and morphs), Radiant Destruction (and morphs), Dark Talons (and morphs), Petrify (and morphs), Aspect of Terror (and morphs), Daedric Curse (and morphs), Daedric Mines (and morphs), Lightning Form (and morphs), Spear Shards (and morphs), Backlash (and morphs), Scorch (and morphs), Impaling Shards (and morphs), Ash Cloud (and morphs), Wall of Elements (and morphs), Drain Essence (and morphs), Trap Beast (and morphs), Fire Rune (and morphs), Trapping Webs (and morphs), Caltrops (and morphs), Path of Darkness (and morphs), Agony (and morphs), Rune Prison (and morphs), Lightning Splash (and morphs), Volley (and morphs), Magicka Detonation (and morphs), Explosive Charge, Lotus Fan, Streak, Dark Flare (heal debuff portion only), Ritual of Retribution, Arctic Blast

And here's a list of skills that you can't mitigate with dodge once they've been applied:
Mages' Fury (and morphs), Sun Fire (and morphs), Eclipse (and morphs), Swarm (and morphs), Searing Strike (and morphs), Fiery Breath (and morphs), Cleave (and morphs), Twin Slashes (and morphs), Poison Arrow (and morphs), Arrow Spray (and morphs), Soul Trap (and morphs), Infectious Claws (and morphs)[Note: Infectious Claws is very, very difficult to dodge, but it's possible as per my tests], Entropy (and morphs), Volatile Armor

Bad huh? Gets worse:

Ultimates - Soul Strike (and morphs), Dawnbreaker (and morphs), Elemental Storm (and morphs), Meteor (and morphs), Dragonknight Standard (and morphs), Bat Swarm (and morphs), Consuming Darkness (and morphs), Soul Shred (and morphs), Summon Storm Atronach (and morphs), Negate Magic (and morphs), Radial Sweep (and morphs), Nova (and morphs), Sleet Storm (and morphs), Soul Harvest

And one ultimate which you can't mitigate by dodging once it has been applied: Lacerate (and morphs)

That's not all.

DW/2H Bleeds, Skoria proc, DoT set bonuses, lightning/resto heavy attacks - all undodgeable as well.


No matter how you put it, the vast majority of damage in the game is undodgeable. Worth noting though is that somewhat ironically stamina builds (apart from Warden & Templar) have the least amount of undodgeable attacks.

So based on this, we can lower any perceived practical value granted by medium armor's dodge roll cost reduction (20% with 5 medium). Not that it really matters, since the cost is stacking exponentially.

Just using the build I'm experimenting with atm (5 Hundings 5 Sheer Venom 2 Selene), here's an example of how many times I can dodge roll in a row (dodge roll cost 2585 with 56 points in Tumbling & 5 medium): 2585(+33%)->3438(+33%)->4573(+33%)->6081(+33%)->8088(+33%)->10 758

6 dodge rolls in a row and that's 35 523 stamina spent.

How about same setup in 5 heavy instead?

Dodge roll cost only goes up to 2973 as medium armor & CP modifiers are multiplicative.

2973(+33%)->3954(+33%)->5259(+33%)->6994(+33%)->9302(+33%)->12 372

So we "only" end up spending 5k more stamina dodging 6 times in a row, all things considered that's not a pretty big loss, especially when you no longer have to dodge roll the few dodgeable attacks left in this game thanks to higher mitigation.


...which brings us to the next portion. How much does the extra mitigation and healing received affect actual combat in PvP? Let's take a 100k tooltip Soul Assault as an example.

5/1/1 Full Legendary medium nets you 19% Spell Resistance

A 100K Soul Assault tooltip->28 571 damage/second, which gets halved to 14 286/second in PvP. We reduce 19% from that (let's assume there's equal amounts of penetration & armor buffs) and we get 11 572 damage/second on average.

Let's assume we're blocking (because what other option is there): -50% to that equals 5786 damage/second on average.

Now, my Vigor tooltip with 4461 weapon damage and 34 059 stamina is 14 997 over 5 seconds, which is halved in PvP (7499) - meaning 1500 health/second on average. We deduce that from the Soul Assault damage, and we'll "only" take 4286 damage from it through block.

Health Recovery (at 367 with 5 medium) also reduces another 642 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 3644 damage/second through block.


Now let's look at heavy armor.

Assuming the same setup (which isn't BiS for heavy, far from it), your Spell Resistance will be 24%, but your weapon damage will drop from 4461 to 4296.

14 286-24%->10 857-50%(block)=5429 damage/second

Now Vigor. With 4296 weapon damage, Vigor has a tooltip of 14 676. The healing received gets increased by 8% from Rapid Mending, so you get 15 850 health over 5 seconds. Halved in PvP & divided by five, we get to 1585 health/second on average.

5429-1585=3844

Health Recovery (at 417 with 5 heavy) also reduces another 730 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 3114 damage/second through block.

So heavy armor is able to mitigate 15.6851% more damage on average than medium armor after you count in Vigor & health recovery (Rally and any other self heal would further widen the gap).


However, the real difference comes with the sets available to heavy & medium:

Legion+Fury for example will net you a Vigor tooltip of 16029(+8%)->17 311, or 1731 health/second on average (+some small heals from Legion) - this leads to Soul Assault dealing an average 3698 damage/second.

Health Recovery (at 587 with 5 heavy & a set bonus from Legion) also reduces another 1027 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 2671 damage/second through block.

30.8155% difference to what a medium setup that goes all in for high heals/dmg (at the cost of sustain) would give you.


Speaking of sustain, let's compare those next:

With the medium setup, I have 1391 Stamina Recovery & 1091 Magicka Recovery.

With the same buffs & CPs, Legion+Fury heavy armor build (with the same monster set) gets you 1257 Stamina Recovery (a 10% difference) & 1091 Magicka Recovery. However, with 5 heavy Constitution can be considered equal to 270 Stamina/Magicka Recovery, so in fact you get more stamina & magicka recovery in a heavy armor build (1527 "stamina regen" & 1361 "magicka regen") than you do in medium, unless you get multiple set bonuses from gear (in which case if you're medium, you're giving up damage/healing for sustain and thus further widening difference seen above between damage mitigated/outhealed).

Surprise Attack in 5/1/1 Heavy costs you 2250 stamina
Surprise Attack in 5/1/1 Medium costs you 2066 stamina

A difference of 184 stamina.

Assuming you manage to spam Surprise Attack once every 1,3s (weave time with GCD) with no downtime, you'd need 313 stamina regen to get even, which is covered by Constitution alone in the comparison I made above, so you don't even need cost reduction or regen on jewelry to get even.


So yeah, just some little maths detailing why heavy armor is significantly stronger at the moment. I believe that if dodge roll was a more reliable defense, the cost reduction on that with medium could be used as an argument.

But even so, the amount of times you can dodge doesn't really differ (see above), so I do think medium needs significant buffs to get on par with heavy.

Thanks man, mind if I copy this in the first post?

DDuke

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Would you say that heavy armor stamplar would be widely considered as shite by today's standards? What about a dueling situation with basic sets like heavy shacklebreaker + bp etc? Let's see what you know bud, speak up.

I ran heavy armor pre nerf on my stamplar, Not sure i'd do it post nerf to be honest; and understand I ran *** like Fury/Ravager combo for stupid amounts of weapon damage.

I think Stamplar probably does better post patch with Medium to be honest; this is coming from a AVA situation though. As for Shackle/BP, Could work i guess, I mean its kinda like Hulking/BP so you're looking at what? 42k stamina? Why would you not run medium armor is the question? you're not going to be blocking on a Stamplar and you're going to be running DW/2 hander nine times out of ten i'd say... So really all you're getting is the extra mitigation but losing out on a *** load of damage in my opinion.

Alright, since you want to see duels and you want to see me get rekt by those heavies, enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc9Dos673hA

Done?

As you can imagine, most of my stam opponents are in medium and we have some light armor with maybe 1-2 heavy users, which are still not a problem to dispatch due to the damage that I can achieve.

Also, pay special attention to the last 2-3 fights with the other stamplar.

That's one of the better stamplars on PC EU, his main character is a stamplar and he's in medium. I barely play stamplar (even at that point) and prior to that didn't play it for weeks, and of course, I'm in heavy. There is no way that you can tell me that medium is better in heavy in that fight, I won both fights without actually trying much and I had a much harder time killing him on my mag sorc (we had some duels before that).

My point stands. Medium is fun and can be useful in certain situations, it's just that heavy is better if you know what to do. There's more to a build than just armor type, and if you put all the pieces of the puzzle in the right order, heavy will benefit you more.

Shuffle on heavy is ridiculously bad design. You are building to take hits, adding another layer of mitigation on top is just wrong. At most there should be just minor evasion on heavy builds, absolutely 100% no major evasion in 5+ heavy.

My question is why are you running Heavy in these duels, What are you getting out of it vs medium?

I didn't have time to watch the whole video (sorry Mage ), but just judging from the first clip alone:

• Mage is able to deal persistent undodgeable damage with Jabs & POTL.
• He doesn't die to the stamblade's (who I know is a good player and plays a high damage build as well) unblocked Incap+Surprise Attack and instead takes only 40-50% of health bar as damage from both. In fact, Mage doesn't even have to Vigor (let alone Rally) in that fight.

There's no way the medium armor stamina NB could've won that fight - as you can see on the video Mage simply outdamages the Vigor & Rally heals the medium armor build has and ignores his dodge rolls entirely with jabs & POTL, while being safe from any burst available to the medium armor build.

The stamina NB could've used Rally to live a little longer, but that only prolongs the inevitable.

Spin it as you want, that is not balanced nor fair.

DDuke

LegendaryMage wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

You guys keep saying heavy armor op but if zos nerf heavy even a bit heavy magicka builds will be dead. no sustain. no resource from heavy attack etc.. constitiuon giving 500 mag stamina every 4 seconds. ewuals 125 per second. its nothing...

I think people forget that heavy armor magicka builds were perfectly viable before ZOS even buffed heavy armor.
I bet I could still make a top tier magicka templar with heavy armor if that still interested me.

A lot of people underestimate the power of mitigation, especially when combined with strong heals (Rapid Mending passive helps a lot).

Also, Constitution is 540 magicka/stamina every 4 seconds with 5 heavy armor pieces - this equals to 270 magicka and stamina regen.

In order to get the equal of 270 magicka/stamina regen from Windwalker/Recovery medium/light passives (with 5 medium or 5 light pieces for comparison's sake), you'd need to have 1350 base stamina regen.

This means atleast 2x regen bonuses from gear and regen food/drink - so you're already giving up damage just to get even with one half of the "regen".


So no, Constitution is not "nothing", Constitution is insane when you put things into perspective and compare it to other armor types.

So the issue of this thread now isn't the "horrendious op" damage bonus from wrath anymore but the resource return and the mitigation? What exactly should heavy armor do? I always read opinions like "it should outlast but deal less damage". And that is what it does. Wrath pales in comparison to LA penetration + crit and to MA weapon dmg boost + crit.

HA does not even grant cost reduction. But it "outlasts" via resource return + mitigation.

Just some numbers on mitigation, legendary level. Only the armor passives activated, no additional set boni or whatsoever. Numbers taken from UESP build editor.

7 Light: 10.042 spell (15%) 7.501 phys (11%)
5 L/ 1M/ 1H: 11.656 spell (18%) 9.841 phys (15%) (chest heavy, legs medium)

7 Medium: 11.199 in both (17%)
5/1/1: 12.354 spell (19%), 11.991 phys (18%) (chest heavy, waist light)

7 Heavy: 17.431 in both (26%)
5/1/1: 16.210 spell (24%), 15.847 phys (24%) (hand medium, waist light)

So, assuming one runs 5/1/1, the difference between 5 light and 5 heavy is 4554 spell resistance and 6.006 physical resistance. But that all doesn't matter when light armors main defense is up: magickal wards. No resistances get taken into account, be it physical, spell or critical. Problem here is that wards tend to drop at critical moments.

Between 5/1/1 medium and heavy lies 3856 spell and physical resistance. But also 20% dodge roll costs. Having in mind that a dodge roll completely negates 100% damage and effects from dodged skills it's more usefull than 5-6% mitigation. Obvious issue here is that some devs thought it would be a good idea to have increasing numbers of hardcounters to dodge rolling.

Since you sacrifice 20-28% recovery, 10-14% cost reduction, 2191 spell crit chance or 1640-2.296 phys crit chance, , 4884 penetration or 12% weapon dmg + 20-24% dodge roll cost decrease + 15-21% sprint speed when chosing heavy over light / medium I think it's fair to have 5-15% more mitigation, 8% better healing and unshrinkable resource return.

I think it's rather clear that the devs headed into "outlasting" with heavy and damage with the others. So again, problem are not the passives but the sets. At least it seems so when you look at ravager, 7th legion and so on. They fill the hole the passives intentionaly left - damage.
But strangely enough this argument gets not taken into account when talking about defensive light armor sets like wizards reposte etc. that fills the hole in LA passives - dmg reduction.

Thats the comment i was looking for. I dont understand why people think heavy is op. Im pretty sure zos will nerf black rose again which already nerfed back to oblivion and most useless set atm.

Light armor has its shields that cannot be critted and can be spammed. Medium armor has good buffs for dodge rolling, running, offence. Just because you cant kill a heavy build doesnt mean they are op. They meant to be defensive.

So this guys saying heavy is op you wouldnt invite any dd wearingheavy armor to your trials right? so heavy is useless in pve for healers and dds. its only viable for pve tanks and some pvp build. But you want to be invicible with medium/light armor okay lets do that. and whata next? if you are medium you will claim light is op. you will want everything nerfed until your build becomes op.

Comments here are sooo biased. people say constitition gives you 250 regen that cannot be reduced with poison. why dont you also talk about having good amount of regen in light/medium which can be increased %20 + %20 + %15 +%20 (light/racial/cp/potion) so 2k regen becomes 3500 with buffs + for light armor people usually running resto on back bar which gives loooots of magicka return with heavy attack whereas my heavy mag dk dual 1h/s has no magicka return in heavy attack.

I have maxed light/medium/heavy armor dds and im having big trouble on resource management on my heavy magdk. wood elf nb/redguardnb/redguarddk this 3 stamina medium builds have no resource management issues. light armor high elf sorc best with resource management and also tanky with 3 shields 30k in pvp + mines + shuffle + streak.

Please tell me how heavy is op without being biased and with mathematical facts. please.

Mathematical facts? This should be fun.

Let's start with dodge roll. What's the problem with it?

Well, here's a list of basic skills that you cannot mitigate with dodge roll - they will hit you:
Puncturing Strikes (and morphs), Dive (and morphs), Radiant Destruction (and morphs), Dark Talons (and morphs), Petrify (and morphs), Aspect of Terror (and morphs), Daedric Curse (and morphs), Daedric Mines (and morphs), Lightning Form (and morphs), Spear Shards (and morphs), Backlash (and morphs), Scorch (and morphs), Impaling Shards (and morphs), Ash Cloud (and morphs), Wall of Elements (and morphs), Drain Essence (and morphs), Trap Beast (and morphs), Fire Rune (and morphs), Trapping Webs (and morphs), Caltrops (and morphs), Path of Darkness (and morphs), Agony (and morphs), Rune Prison (and morphs), Lightning Splash (and morphs), Volley (and morphs), Magicka Detonation (and morphs), Explosive Charge, Lotus Fan, Streak, Dark Flare (heal debuff portion only), Ritual of Retribution, Arctic Blast

And here's a list of skills that you can't mitigate with dodge once they've been applied:
Mages' Fury (and morphs), Sun Fire (and morphs), Eclipse (and morphs), Swarm (and morphs), Searing Strike (and morphs), Fiery Breath (and morphs), Cleave (and morphs), Twin Slashes (and morphs), Poison Arrow (and morphs), Arrow Spray (and morphs), Soul Trap (and morphs), Infectious Claws (and morphs)[Note: Infectious Claws is very, very difficult to dodge, but it's possible as per my tests], Entropy (and morphs), Volatile Armor

Bad huh? Gets worse:

Ultimates - Soul Strike (and morphs), Dawnbreaker (and morphs), Elemental Storm (and morphs), Meteor (and morphs), Dragonknight Standard (and morphs), Bat Swarm (and morphs), Consuming Darkness (and morphs), Soul Shred (and morphs), Summon Storm Atronach (and morphs), Negate Magic (and morphs), Radial Sweep (and morphs), Nova (and morphs), Sleet Storm (and morphs), Soul Harvest

And one ultimate which you can't mitigate by dodging once it has been applied: Lacerate (and morphs)

That's not all.

DW/2H Bleeds, Skoria proc, DoT set bonuses, lightning/resto heavy attacks - all undodgeable as well.


No matter how you put it, the vast majority of damage in the game is undodgeable. Worth noting though is that somewhat ironically stamina builds (apart from Warden & Templar) have the least amount of undodgeable attacks.

So based on this, we can lower any perceived practical value granted by medium armor's dodge roll cost reduction (20% with 5 medium). Not that it really matters, since the cost is stacking exponentially.

Just using the build I'm experimenting with atm (5 Hundings 5 Sheer Venom 2 Selene), here's an example of how many times I can dodge roll in a row (dodge roll cost 2585 with 56 points in Tumbling & 5 medium): 2585(+33%)->3438(+33%)->4573(+33%)->6081(+33%)->8088(+33%)->10 758

6 dodge rolls in a row and that's 35 523 stamina spent.

How about same setup in 5 heavy instead?

Dodge roll cost only goes up to 2973 as medium armor & CP modifiers are multiplicative.

2973(+33%)->3954(+33%)->5259(+33%)->6994(+33%)->9302(+33%)->12 372

So we "only" end up spending 5k more stamina dodging 6 times in a row, all things considered that's not a pretty big loss, especially when you no longer have to dodge roll the few dodgeable attacks left in this game thanks to higher mitigation.


...which brings us to the next portion. How much does the extra mitigation and healing received affect actual combat in PvP? Let's take a 100k tooltip Soul Assault as an example.

5/1/1 Full Legendary medium nets you 19% Spell Resistance

A 100K Soul Assault tooltip->28 571 damage/second, which gets halved to 14 286/second in PvP. We reduce 19% from that (let's assume there's equal amounts of penetration & armor buffs) and we get 11 572 damage/second on average.

Let's assume we're blocking (because what other option is there): -50% to that equals 5786 damage/second on average.

Now, my Vigor tooltip with 4461 weapon damage and 34 059 stamina is 14 997 over 5 seconds, which is halved in PvP (7499) - meaning 1500 health/second on average. We deduce that from the Soul Assault damage, and we'll "only" take 4286 damage from it through block.

Health Recovery (at 367 with 5 medium) also reduces another 642 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 3644 damage/second through block.


Now let's look at heavy armor.

Assuming the same setup (which isn't BiS for heavy, far from it), your Spell Resistance will be 24%, but your weapon damage will drop from 4461 to 4296.

14 286-24%->10 857-50%(block)=5429 damage/second

Now Vigor. With 4296 weapon damage, Vigor has a tooltip of 14 676. The healing received gets increased by 8% from Rapid Mending, so you get 15 850 health over 5 seconds. Halved in PvP & divided by five, we get to 1585 health/second on average.

5429-1585=3844

Health Recovery (at 417 with 5 heavy) also reduces another 730 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 3114 damage/second through block.

So heavy armor is able to mitigate 15.6851% more damage on average than medium armor after you count in Vigor & health recovery (Rally and any other self heal would further widen the gap).


However, the real difference comes with the sets available to heavy & medium:

Legion+Fury for example will net you a Vigor tooltip of 16029(+8%)->17 311, or 1731 health/second on average (+some small heals from Legion) - this leads to Soul Assault dealing an average 3698 damage/second.

Health Recovery (at 587 with 5 heavy & a set bonus from Legion) also reduces another 1027 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 2671 damage/second through block.

30.8155% difference to what a medium setup that goes all in for high heals/dmg (at the cost of sustain) would give you.


Speaking of sustain, let's compare those next:

With the medium setup, I have 1391 Stamina Recovery & 1091 Magicka Recovery.

With the same buffs & CPs, Legion+Fury heavy armor build (with the same monster set) gets you 1257 Stamina Recovery (a 10% difference) & 1091 Magicka Recovery. However, with 5 heavy Constitution can be considered equal to 270 Stamina/Magicka Recovery, so in fact you get more stamina & magicka recovery in a heavy armor build (1527 "stamina regen" & 1361 "magicka regen") than you do in medium, unless you get multiple set bonuses from gear (in which case if you're medium, you're giving up damage/healing for sustain and thus further widening difference seen above between damage mitigated/outhealed).

Surprise Attack in 5/1/1 Heavy costs you 2250 stamina
Surprise Attack in 5/1/1 Medium costs you 2066 stamina

A difference of 184 stamina.

Assuming you manage to spam Surprise Attack once every 1,3s (weave time with GCD) with no downtime, you'd need 313 stamina regen to get even, which is covered by Constitution alone in the comparison I made above, so you don't even need cost reduction or regen on jewelry to get even.


So yeah, just some little maths detailing why heavy armor is significantly stronger at the moment. I believe that if dodge roll was a more reliable defense, the cost reduction on that with medium could be used as an argument.

But even so, the amount of times you can dodge doesn't really differ (see above), so I do think medium needs significant buffs to get on par with heavy.

Thanks man, mind if I copy this in the first post?

Oh, not at all. You might want to put it in a spoiler box or something though, it's a giant wall of text and numbers now that I look at it

Xsorus

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I've seen that argument in the past, that common EU players are better in previous games. I've always found it not to be true. You deal with different meta's it seems. I hate to use GW2 but that's the last game i swapped between NA and euro on....Euro servers had like zero BM Bunker builds running around on Ranger for example..and I just stomped the *** out of everyone I came across because they never fought that type of ranger setup. Maybe that's Legendary issue, he's running into different things that I do.

It´s not playerskill but mentality most of the time.

EU has one completely dominant faction from 6am to ~7pm. People on this faction run dedicated Xv1 templates because they know they´ll outnumber you in 9 out of 10 situations you encounter them.

Only game i played where EU and NA players got mixed was daoc and when the first EU guilds migrated before the eventual servermerge they went from 700 to 1m lwrp to roughly 1.5 to 2m because they stomped most NA groups from the beginning due to having a much more gvg focused and adapted scene on EU (also having a much longer primetime aswell).

Not sure what cluster you played on but the EU players who came to Merlin and later kilibury got *** stomped pretty hard. It wasn't even close in how bad out groups ran them over.

Derra

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I've seen that argument in the past, that common EU players are better in previous games. I've always found it not to be true. You deal with different meta's it seems. I hate to use GW2 but that's the last game i swapped between NA and euro on....Euro servers had like zero BM Bunker builds running around on Ranger for example..and I just stomped the *** out of everyone I came across because they never fought that type of ranger setup. Maybe that's Legendary issue, he's running into different things that I do.

It´s not playerskill but mentality most of the time.

EU has one completely dominant faction from 6am to ~7pm. People on this faction run dedicated Xv1 templates because they know they´ll outnumber you in 9 out of 10 situations you encounter them.

Only game i played where EU and NA players got mixed was daoc and when the first EU guilds migrated before the eventual servermerge they went from 700 to 1m lwrp to roughly 1.5 to 2m because they stomped most NA groups from the beginning due to having a much more gvg focused and adapted scene on EU (also having a much longer primetime aswell).

Not sure what cluster you played on but the EU players who came to Merlin and later kilibury got *** stomped pretty hard. It wasn't even close in how bad out groups ran them over.

Mainly thinking of exhale (bossiney) and the swedes (wherever they played).

Cyrediath

@DDuke even tho i also think stamina heavy performs better in a duel, your comment is a bit biased. you never compare magicka heavy vs magicka light.

Also medium benefits more when you habe higher weapon damage. it fits very well for the sneaky gank build.

And for pve, medium crushes heavy armor but no one talks about it and no one asking for buff to heavy for pve.

Im sure you wouldnt invite any heavy healer or dd to your vet trial or vet dlc dungon group/raid right?

Destruent

Cyrediath wrote: »

@DDuke even tho i also think stamina heavy performs better in a duel, your comment is a bit biased. you never compare magicka heavy vs magicka light.

Also medium benefits more when you habe higher weapon damage. it fits very well for the sneaky gank build.

And for pve, medium crushes heavy armor but no one talks about it and no one asking for buff to heavy for pve.

Im sure you wouldnt invite any heavy healer or dd to your vet trial or vet dlc dungon group/raid right?

The big difference is: magicka-builds are doing fine in light armor, stambuilds in medium-armor don't

pve-wise heavy isn't meant to be good for dps and heavy is fine for tanking. You can't ahve all in one...damage and tankiness in one armor is killing balance.

Arthg

Seems to me this thread needs to clarify the sort of PvP it wants to address - duels, CP, BGs, Cyro...

In non-CP Cyrodiil, you need to mitigate and outheal a *** of damage for the sets to proc'. Fury is a case in point, as it never happens that you stand in a critting circle of caltrops with nobody around waiting to get the full 750 wd bonus. It's more like you get sorcs and NBs pounding at you, and you need to be offensive a bit or else you're toast. Except that your offense is a bit low to start with, so yeah.
Blocking is a limited option too, because unless you want to burn your stam in no time, you need to build for it (but Fury doesn't come in sturdy), and you lose all your regen - from that point of view, constitution is far from OP.

In no-CP open-world, offensive heavy sets are viable, no more - any nerfs to their bonus wouldn't make them so anymore.

All the maths that posit the procced weapon damage as given while overlooking the incoming damage and/or the triggering chance of the sets to proc', or compare constitution and regen while overlooking, once again, the necessary incoming damage for constitution to apply, and the absence of regen while blocking - seems to me they don't apply to open-world physics.

Cyrediath

Destruent wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

@DDuke even tho i also think stamina heavy performs better in a duel, your comment is a bit biased. you never compare magicka heavy vs magicka light.

Also medium benefits more when you habe higher weapon damage. it fits very well for the sneaky gank build.

And for pve, medium crushes heavy armor but no one talks about it and no one asking for buff to heavy for pve.

Im sure you wouldnt invite any heavy healer or dd to your vet trial or vet dlc dungon group/raid right?

The big difference is: magicka-builds are doing fine in light armor, stambuilds in medium-armor don't

pve-wise heavy isn't meant to be good for dps and heavy is fine for tanking. You can't ahve all in one...damage and tankiness in one armor is killing balance.

well people here claims that heavy armor deals more damage than medium also sustains better then why ee dont see any heavy dds in trials?

I guess they only have problem with certain heavy weapon damage sets. if they truly believe and if it was correct, every stamina pve characters would wear heavy armor in trials for more damage and more sustain.

I agree with you on light armor magicka builds doing fine but magicka heavy builds are underperforming imo. so heavy armor is not op. if it is,(assuming light armor magicka superior to heavy magicka) light armor is more overpowered.

ZoS just need to slightly nerf 7th legion ravager etc weapon damage sets but not killing them like they did on black rose and buff slightly medium armor and add something to heavy armor for heavy magicka builds or maybe magicka return from heavy attacks on 1h/s i mean magicka+stamina but lower amount compered to stamina gain as it is now.

@Destruent

DDuke

Cyrediath wrote: »

@DDuke even tho i also think stamina heavy performs better in a duel, your comment is a bit biased. you never compare magicka heavy vs magicka light.

Also medium benefits more when you habe higher weapon damage. it fits very well for the sneaky gank build.

And for pve, medium crushes heavy armor but no one talks about it and no one asking for buff to heavy for pve.

Im sure you wouldnt invite any heavy healer or dd to your vet trial or vet dlc dungon group/raid right?

No, and I'll be the first one to advocate for buffing heavy healers/dmg dealers in PvE (which is probably a pretty controversive opinion). I mean, if I can competitively play a heavy armor paladin healer/DPS in other games, why not in ESO? Or a heavy armor using warrior.

But that has no relevance when it comes to PvP & should be addressed separately.


As for heavy magicka vs magicka light... I don't think heavy armor is worse than light for magicka. I said the same thing year ago, before heavy armor had even got the buffs and people were calling it a joke - and not only did I say that, I also made a pretty strong build to prove people wrong.

Granted, the clips in that video are from after the buff patch - but it was strong even before that (able to go toe to toe vs the meta stam DKs of back then). After buffs, it just became ridiculously strong (and has been nerfed over & over again).

What I'm trying to say is, with proper set combinations & experimentation, a strong heavy armor magicka build could easily be created (I have some setups in mind).

The power of heals & mitigation can't be underestimated (you can't tank zergs in light armor).

Destruent

Cyrediath wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

@DDuke even tho i also think stamina heavy performs better in a duel, your comment is a bit biased. you never compare magicka heavy vs magicka light.

Also medium benefits more when you habe higher weapon damage. it fits very well for the sneaky gank build.

And for pve, medium crushes heavy armor but no one talks about it and no one asking for buff to heavy for pve.

Im sure you wouldnt invite any heavy healer or dd to your vet trial or vet dlc dungon group/raid right?

The big difference is: magicka-builds are doing fine in light armor, stambuilds in medium-armor don't

pve-wise heavy isn't meant to be good for dps and heavy is fine for tanking. You can't ahve all in one...damage and tankiness in one armor is killing balance.

well people here claims that heavy armor deals more damage than medium also sustains better then why ee dont see any heavy dds in trials?

I guess they only have problem with certain heavy weapon damage sets. if they truly believe and if it was correct, every stamina pve characters would wear heavy armor in trials for more damage and more sustain.

I agree with you on light armor magicka builds doing fine but magicka heavy builds are underperforming imo. so heavy armor is not op. if it is,(assuming light armor magicka superior to heavy magicka) light armor is more overpowered.

ZoS just need to slightly nerf 7th legion ravager etc weapon damage sets but not killing them like they did on black rose and buff slightly medium armor and add something to heavy armor for heavy magicka builds or maybe magicka return from heavy attacks on 1h/s i mean magicka+stamina but lower amount compered to stamina gain as it is now.

@Destruent

Doing damage in pve and pvp is a lot different.

in PvP you want burst and sustain which you'll get from ressources, regen(passive/active) and weapondamage (obtainable through heavy easilly) wheras in pve you want sustained DPS which requires stam, wep-dmg and crit (best choice: medium for higher crit).
Critdmg is good for both pve and pvp, but you don't get it from armor, so i don't really need to compare it for this :winK:

Cyrediath

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

@DDuke even tho i also think stamina heavy performs better in a duel, your comment is a bit biased. you never compare magicka heavy vs magicka light.

Also medium benefits more when you habe higher weapon damage. it fits very well for the sneaky gank build.

And for pve, medium crushes heavy armor but no one talks about it and no one asking for buff to heavy for pve.

Im sure you wouldnt invite any heavy healer or dd to your vet trial or vet dlc dungon group/raid right?

No, and I'll be the first one to advocate for buffing heavy healers/dmg dealers in PvE (which is probably a pretty controversive opinion). I mean, if I can competitively play a heavy armor paladin healer/DPS in other games, why not in ESO? Or a heavy armor using warrior.

But that has no relevance when it comes to PvP & should be addressed separately.


As for heavy magicka vs magicka light... I don't think heavy armor is worse than light for magicka. I said the same thing year ago, before heavy armor had even got the buffs and people were calling it a joke - and not only did I say that, I also made a pretty strong build to prove people wrong.

Granted, the clips in that video are from after the buff patch - but it was strong even before that (able to go toe to toe vs the meta stam DKs of back then). After buffs, it just became ridiculously strong (and has been nerfed over & over again).

What I'm trying to say is, with proper set combinations & experimentation, a strong heavy armor magicka build could easily be created (I have some setups in mind).

The power of heals & mitigation can't be underestimated (you can't tank zergs in light armor).

Well you cant tank zergs with heavy armor too if you are not using shield ultimate or completely tanky.

light armor penetration, spell resistance, magicka recovery, cost reduction is superior compered to 200 spell damage + 250 mag recovery + max health + healing. I mean when i see people comparing armors they are focused on certain sets. yes some sets working very good with heavy as well as light and medium. But if you compare just passives you get from armor (just armor comparison) light is way better than heavy for magdk for an example imo. Ive tried several builds on my magicka dk heavy but always ended up with getting decent sustain with a spell damage from 1.5k to 2k or getting around 2.5k to 3k spell damage with no sustain. And you know magdk doesnt have much burst compered to other classes. it relies on skoria, leap, meteor etc.

On the other hand my magicka sorcerer has very good sustain and really gopd damage and i feel much more tankier with hardened ward + amnulment + healing ward. with bastion i guess it was 30k shield in pvp and can be spammed always.

With my magicka dk light armor i didnt have any sustain issues either. i had around 1.2k mag recovery but no sustain sets. in raids with magicka ball and synergies + elemental drain i never run out of magicka.

With heavy magdk i cant stack that much regen or cost reduction or penetration. I really tried.

I do my own calculations and light aeems better on paper compered to heavy for mag dk. i dont ask for a nerf on light but i really dont want heavy to get nerfed because i know it will effect magicka builds more..

DDuke

Arthg wrote: »

Seems to me this thread needs to clarify the sort of PvP it wants to address - duels, CP, BGs, Cyro...

In non-CP Cyrodiil, you need to mitigate and outheal a *** of damage for the sets to proc'. Fury is a case in point, as it never happens that you stand in a critting circle of caltrops with nobody around waiting to get the full 750 wd bonus. It's more like you get sorcs and NBs pounding at you, and you need to be offensive a bit or else you're toast. Except that your offense is a bit low to start with, so yeah.
Blocking is a limited option too, because unless you want to burn your stam in no time, you need to build for it (but Fury doesn't come in sturdy), and you lose all your regen - from that point of view, constitution is far from OP.

In no-CP open-world, offensive heavy sets are viable, no more - any nerfs to their bonus wouldn't make them so anymore.

All the maths that posit the procced weapon damage as given while overlooking the incoming damage and/or the triggering chance of the sets to proc', or compare constitution and regen while overlooking, once again, the necessary incoming damage for constitution to apply, and the absence of regen while blocking - seems to me they don't apply to open-world physics.

Constitution doesn't require you to block for it to proc and it doesn't matter how much damage you take (and whether it's from a DoT or direct attack), it simply procs whenever off cooldown and you take dmg of any kind.

Also, it scales just the same in CP as it does in no-CP. Here's an example:

In no-CP, a 5/1/1 a high damage medium armor build would have 1291 stam regen.
A 5/1/1 heavy armor build would get 1157 stam regen(+270 from constitution=1427).

So where the difference was 136 "stam regen" in favour of heavy in CP environment, it'd be... 136 "stam regen" in no-CP as well. Feel free to count it yourself (you can find the CP specific numbers in my post above).

As for the sets... the uptime is pretty much 100% on Legion & Fury unless your opponent stops attacking entirely (not a good way to win fights).

Compare these heavy sets with no internal cooldown to something like Briarheart which has 10 second duration & 15 second cooldown limiting uptime to 66% maximum, and gives much less weapon damage as well to add insult to injury.


The difference between medium & heavy is the same in no-CP as it is in CP - medium dies, heavy doesn't.

Xsorus

DDuke wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

Seems to me this thread needs to clarify the sort of PvP it wants to address - duels, CP, BGs, Cyro...

In non-CP Cyrodiil, you need to mitigate and outheal a *** of damage for the sets to proc'. Fury is a case in point, as it never happens that you stand in a critting circle of caltrops with nobody around waiting to get the full 750 wd bonus. It's more like you get sorcs and NBs pounding at you, and you need to be offensive a bit or else you're toast. Except that your offense is a bit low to start with, so yeah.
Blocking is a limited option too, because unless you want to burn your stam in no time, you need to build for it (but Fury doesn't come in sturdy), and you lose all your regen - from that point of view, constitution is far from OP.

In no-CP open-world, offensive heavy sets are viable, no more - any nerfs to their bonus wouldn't make them so anymore.

All the maths that posit the procced weapon damage as given while overlooking the incoming damage and/or the triggering chance of the sets to proc', or compare constitution and regen while overlooking, once again, the necessary incoming damage for constitution to apply, and the absence of regen while blocking - seems to me they don't apply to open-world physics.

Constitution doesn't require you to block for it to proc and it doesn't matter how much damage you take (and whether it's from a DoT or direct attack), it simply procs whenever off cooldown and you take dmg of any kind.

Also, it scales just the same in CP as it does in no-CP. Here's an example:

In no-CP, a 5/1/1 a high damage medium armor build would have 1291 stam regen.
A 5/1/1 heavy armor build would get 1157 stam regen(+270 from constitution=1427).

So where the difference was 136 "stam regen" in favour of heavy in CP environment, it'd be... 136 "stam regen" in no-CP as well. Feel free to count it yourself (you can find the CP specific numbers in my post above).

As for the sets... the uptime is pretty much 100% on Legion & Fury unless your opponent stops attacking entirely (not a good way to win fights).

Compare these heavy sets with no internal cooldown to something like Briarheart which has 10 second duration & 15 second cooldown limiting uptime to 66% maximum, and gives much less weapon damage as well to add insult to injury.


The difference between medium & heavy is the same in no-CP as it is in CP - medium dies, heavy doesn't.

Quick question, what made you choose hunding rage and sheer venom (esp sheer venom which is *** imo)?

Cyrediath

DDuke wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

Seems to me this thread needs to clarify the sort of PvP it wants to address - duels, CP, BGs, Cyro...

In non-CP Cyrodiil, you need to mitigate and outheal a *** of damage for the sets to proc'. Fury is a case in point, as it never happens that you stand in a critting circle of caltrops with nobody around waiting to get the full 750 wd bonus. It's more like you get sorcs and NBs pounding at you, and you need to be offensive a bit or else you're toast. Except that your offense is a bit low to start with, so yeah.
Blocking is a limited option too, because unless you want to burn your stam in no time, you need to build for it (but Fury doesn't come in sturdy), and you lose all your regen - from that point of view, constitution is far from OP.

In no-CP open-world, offensive heavy sets are viable, no more - any nerfs to their bonus wouldn't make them so anymore.

All the maths that posit the procced weapon damage as given while overlooking the incoming damage and/or the triggering chance of the sets to proc', or compare constitution and regen while overlooking, once again, the necessary incoming damage for constitution to apply, and the absence of regen while blocking - seems to me they don't apply to open-world physics.

Constitution doesn't require you to block for it to proc and it doesn't matter how much damage you take (and whether it's from a DoT or direct attack), it simply procs whenever off cooldown and you take dmg of any kind.

Also, it scales just the same in CP as it does in no-CP. Here's an example:

In no-CP, a 5/1/1 a high damage medium armor build would have 1291 stam regen.
A 5/1/1 heavy armor build would get 1157 stam regen(+270 from constitution=1427).

So where the difference was 136 "stam regen" in favour of heavy in CP environment, it'd be... 136 "stam regen" in no-CP as well. Feel free to count it yourself (you can find the CP specific numbers in my post above).

As for the sets... the uptime is pretty much 100% on Legion & Fury unless your opponent stops attacking entirely (not a good way to win fights).

Compare these heavy sets with no internal cooldown to something like Briarheart which has 10 second duration & 15 second cooldown limiting uptime to 66% maximum, and gives much less weapon damage as well to add insult to injury.


The difference between medium & heavy is the same in no-CP as it is in CP - medium dies, heavy doesn't.

its a little bit biased imo. medium also gives %15 reduction. for an example ehile using a skill that costs 4k (lets say glpbal cooldown 1.5 sec) extra 150 stamina recovery underperforming. with medium armor that skill will cost 3.400 and in heavy 4.000. if you use thag skill 4 times (in 6 seconds) you will spend 13.600. heavy armor will spend 16.00 and will get 300 stamina from extra regen = 15.400. 1.800 stamina difference here. difference will be lower on skills that costs less. also constitition is nor a regen i know but its just a simple example here.

Only problem with heavy armor is some weapon damage sets. heavy armor passives are not superior to mesium or light just its different and fits well for duels.

Maybe you are not sneaking around so sneak cost reduction is useless to you. also health recovery from heavy is useless to vampires.

in duels with my heavy mag dk, i apply my buffs and ccs at the beginning amd i start to duel with %50 magicka pool. its not happening in light armor. im using desert rose (which is light armor but using it on jewelries and weapons) and if someone not attacking me going defensive or just bursting from time to time, im habing big sustain issues.

stamina heavy builds are tanky and able to stack good amount of weapon power with certain sets. they take less damage and heal themselves better compered to damage taken. but nerfing heavy because of that will kill heavy magicka dks depends on the nerf. just saying.

UppGRAYxDD

As a Heavy armored magicka user since before the Imperial City patch, I disagree with alot of comments in here. I have stated before that light and heavy armor are both in a good place, but YES medium armor needs A SLIGHT BUFF. Just a little one, a huge buff would just set back the balance that ZoS is trying to create. A few ppl think it is the armor sets...this is incorrect, any character can use these hvy dmg sets by simply slotting weapons, 2 pieces on the body, and one accessory. I also disagree with any notion that the dodgeroll/shuffle combo is not an effective defensive measure. Mobility is the strength of medium armor and any good player knows this. The main problem I see is that most players dont want to think about positioning or plan attacks. They just roll in expecting to win and when things dont go their way they come to the forums and QQ and whine to the devs for a nerf. What ever happened to learning from failure? Theory crafting to overcome obstacles that you encounter? I understand being frustrated by getting whipped by another player constantly in duels or open world pvp, but dont just write it off as "they are using OP sets and need to get nerfed". Overcome the obstacles, improve your gameplay, and reap the rewards when you beat these so-called OP individuals through the power of thought and execution...

DDuke

Cyrediath wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

@DDuke even tho i also think stamina heavy performs better in a duel, your comment is a bit biased. you never compare magicka heavy vs magicka light.

Also medium benefits more when you habe higher weapon damage. it fits very well for the sneaky gank build.

And for pve, medium crushes heavy armor but no one talks about it and no one asking for buff to heavy for pve.

Im sure you wouldnt invite any heavy healer or dd to your vet trial or vet dlc dungon group/raid right?

No, and I'll be the first one to advocate for buffing heavy healers/dmg dealers in PvE (which is probably a pretty controversive opinion). I mean, if I can competitively play a heavy armor paladin healer/DPS in other games, why not in ESO? Or a heavy armor using warrior.

But that has no relevance when it comes to PvP & should be addressed separately.


As for heavy magicka vs magicka light... I don't think heavy armor is worse than light for magicka. I said the same thing year ago, before heavy armor had even got the buffs and people were calling it a joke - and not only did I say that, I also made a pretty strong build to prove people wrong.

Granted, the clips in that video are from after the buff patch - but it was strong even before that (able to go toe to toe vs the meta stam DKs of back then). After buffs, it just became ridiculously strong (and has been nerfed over & over again).

What I'm trying to say is, with proper set combinations & experimentation, a strong heavy armor magicka build could easily be created (I have some setups in mind).

The power of heals & mitigation can't be underestimated (you can't tank zergs in light armor).

Well you cant tank zergs with heavy armor too if you are not using shield ultimate or completely tanky.

light armor penetration, spell resistance, magicka recovery, cost reduction is superior compered to 200 spell damage + 250 mag recovery + max health + healing. I mean when i see people comparing armors they are focused on certain sets. yes some sets working very good with heavy as well as light and medium. But if you compare just passives you get from armor (just armor comparison) light is way better than heavy for magdk for an example imo. Ive tried several builds on my magicka dk heavy but always ended up with getting decent sustain with a spell damage from 1.5k to 2k or getting around 2.5k to 3k spell damage with no sustain. And you know magdk doesnt have much burst compered to other classes. it relies on skoria, leap, meteor etc.

On the other hand my magicka sorcerer has very good sustain and really gopd damage and i feel much more tankier with hardened ward + amnulment + healing ward. with bastion i guess it was 30k shield in pvp and can be spammed always.

With my magicka dk light armor i didnt have any sustain issues either. i had around 1.2k mag recovery but no sustain sets. in raids with magicka ball and synergies + elemental drain i never run out of magicka.

With heavy magdk i cant stack that much regen or cost reduction or penetration. I really tried.

I do my own calculations and light aeems better on paper compered to heavy for mag dk. i dont ask for a nerf on light but i really dont want heavy to get nerfed because i know it will effect magicka builds more..

Well, I've always found magicka DK far too squishy in light armor. You get outnumbered or just encounter a really high damage player and your defenses will melt rather fast. But I haven't played magicka DK enough to form a valid opinion - all I know is that top DK players in EU are mostly running heavy armor atm.


That said, I can easily see a magicka templar in heavy armor still tanking zergs with proper setup.

You just need to get enough mitigation (i.e. 6 heavy 1 light all impen, & high enough sweep tooltip, Minor Protection from Restoring Focus) & high enough sweep tooltip for big heals (Soulshine could work, +Major Mending from resto off bar, Minor Mending from templar passive & Minor Vitality from Restoring Focus).

Add in 2x Shadowrend for 15% dmg debuff on target & something like 4/5 (5 on off bar) Draugr's Rest so that you get a nice 1k/second (atleast) healing circle with all those modifiers whenever you heavy attack with resto (which restores 5k+ magicka every time in heavy armor).


Just an example of a build I think would do better than any light armor build out there (haven't tested it yet).

You can also abuse Infused weapon & Absorb Magicka enchant to get the equivalent of 460 "magicka regen" if sustain becomes an issue.

Cyrediath

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cyrediath wrote: »

@DDuke even tho i also think stamina heavy performs better in a duel, your comment is a bit biased. you never compare magicka heavy vs magicka light.

Also medium benefits more when you habe higher weapon damage. it fits very well for the sneaky gank build.

And for pve, medium crushes heavy armor but no one talks about it and no one asking for buff to heavy for pve.

Im sure you wouldnt invite any heavy healer or dd to your vet trial or vet dlc dungon group/raid right?

No, and I'll be the first one to advocate for buffing heavy healers/dmg dealers in PvE (which is probably a pretty controversive opinion). I mean, if I can competitively play a heavy armor paladin healer/DPS in other games, why not in ESO? Or a heavy armor using warrior.

But that has no relevance when it comes to PvP & should be addressed separately.


As for heavy magicka vs magicka light... I don't think heavy armor is worse than light for magicka. I said the same thing year ago, before heavy armor had even got the buffs and people were calling it a joke - and not only did I say that, I also made a pretty strong build to prove people wrong.

Granted, the clips in that video are from after the buff patch - but it was strong even before that (able to go toe to toe vs the meta stam DKs of back then). After buffs, it just became ridiculously strong (and has been nerfed over & over again).

What I'm trying to say is, with proper set combinations & experimentation, a strong heavy armor magicka build could easily be created (I have some setups in mind).

The power of heals & mitigation can't be underestimated (you can't tank zergs in light armor).

Well you cant tank zergs with heavy armor too if you are not using shield ultimate or completely tanky.

light armor penetration, spell resistance, magicka recovery, cost reduction is superior compered to 200 spell damage + 250 mag recovery + max health + healing. I mean when i see people comparing armors they are focused on certain sets. yes some sets working very good with heavy as well as light and medium. But if you compare just passives you get from armor (just armor comparison) light is way better than heavy for magdk for an example imo. Ive tried several builds on my magicka dk heavy but always ended up with getting decent sustain with a spell damage from 1.5k to 2k or getting around 2.5k to 3k spell damage with no sustain. And you know magdk doesnt have much burst compered to other classes. it relies on skoria, leap, meteor etc.

On the other hand my magicka sorcerer has very good sustain and really gopd damage and i feel much more tankier with hardened ward + amnulment + healing ward. with bastion i guess it was 30k shield in pvp and can be spammed always.

With my magicka dk light armor i didnt have any sustain issues either. i had around 1.2k mag recovery but no sustain sets. in raids with magicka ball and synergies + elemental drain i never run out of magicka.

With heavy magdk i cant stack that much regen or cost reduction or penetration. I really tried.

I do my own calculations and light aeems better on paper compered to heavy for mag dk. i dont ask for a nerf on light but i really dont want heavy to get nerfed because i know it will effect magicka builds more..

Well, I've always found magicka DK far too squishy in light armor. You get outnumbered or just encounter a really high damage player and your defenses will melt rather fast. But I haven't played magicka DK enough to form a valid opinion - all I know is that top DK players in EU are mostly running heavy armor atm.


That said, I can easily see a magicka templar in heavy armor still tanking zergs with proper setup.

You just need to get enough mitigation (i.e. 6 heavy 1 light all impen, & high enough sweep tooltip, Minor Protection from Restoring Focus) & high enough sweep tooltip for big heals (Soulshine could work, +Major Mending from resto off bar, Minor Mending from templar passive & Minor Vitality from Restoring Focus).

Add in 2x Shadowrend for 15% dmg debuff on target & something like 4/5 (5 on off bar) Draugr's Rest so that you get a nice 1k/second (atleast) healing circle with all those modifiers whenever you heavy attack with resto (which restores 5k+ magicka every time in heavy armor).


Just an example of a build I think would do better than any light armor build out there (haven't tested it yet).

You can also abuse Infused weapon & Absorb Magicka enchant to get the equivalent of 460 "magicka regen" if sustain becomes an issue.

İ guess magicka regen enchant with infused gives around 400 magicka and its every 5 seconds with infused. with perfect timing you can land it every 6 seconds (assuming you are not stunned and enemy is not far away etc etc perfect situation) which is around less than 70 magicka per second.

Btw i disagree what you said about magdk. as far as i can see, more skilled magdk change their build to light armor for vastly more sustain and huge damage increase (from penetration, critical +able to put some spell damage glyphs on jewelries)