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PVP - Any plans on balancing heavy armor finally?

LegendaryMage
LegendaryMage
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Heavy armor is grossly overpowered compared to medium. It sustains just as good thanks to the rapid mending resource bonus, it has access to shuffle like medium and it can provide you with a bunch of damage thanks to an array of offensive heavy armor sets.

Fighting some of these characters becomes impossible when they're dealing more damage than you, sustain better by abusing a resource mechanic and can take 3 times more punishment before going down.

If anyone over there cares about PVP balance, I propose the following;

- Consider tuning down offensive heavy armor sets, there should be no reason for me to run heavy armor and have more damage overall than in medium.
- Restrict armor actives to their armor tree, 5+ pieces required to use that active ability. No more shuffle on heavy armor, in fact, major evasion in heavy armor probably shouldn't be allowed at all.
- Remove the resource sustain from rapid mending, in what world does it make sense to wield a two handed massive weapon in FULL heavy armor and actually replenish your resources at an increased rate? If you were worried about pve tanks not sustaining as well, don't - they sustain perfectly fine in dungeons, and the ones that don't, need to work on their builds a bit.

If you want to see more balanced pvp gameplay in ESO, you really need to look into this heavy armor meta, it will only get worse in time.

Oh and btw since I'm here, get rid of those proc sets, no one asked for them, no one competent likes them, having your armor do damage for you is incredibly stupid. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to miss the good old 1.5 pvp days too.

Have a good day.

Read the spoiler for more details:
DDuke: Mathematical facts? This should be fun.

Let's start with dodge roll. What's the problem with it?

Well, here's a list of basic skills that you cannot mitigate with dodge roll - they will hit you:
Puncturing Strikes (and morphs), Dive (and morphs), Radiant Destruction (and morphs), Dark Talons (and morphs), Petrify (and morphs), Aspect of Terror (and morphs), Daedric Curse (and morphs), Daedric Mines (and morphs), Lightning Form (and morphs), Spear Shards (and morphs), Backlash (and morphs), Scorch (and morphs), Impaling Shards (and morphs), Ash Cloud (and morphs), Wall of Elements (and morphs), Drain Essence (and morphs), Trap Beast (and morphs), Fire Rune (and morphs), Trapping Webs (and morphs), Caltrops (and morphs), Path of Darkness (and morphs), Agony (and morphs), Rune Prison (and morphs), Lightning Splash (and morphs), Volley (and morphs), Magicka Detonation (and morphs), Explosive Charge, Lotus Fan, Streak, Dark Flare (heal debuff portion only), Ritual of Retribution, Arctic Blast

And here's a list of skills that you can't mitigate with dodge once they've been applied:
Mages' Fury (and morphs), Sun Fire (and morphs), Eclipse (and morphs), Swarm (and morphs), Searing Strike (and morphs), Fiery Breath (and morphs), Cleave (and morphs), Twin Slashes (and morphs), Poison Arrow (and morphs), Arrow Spray (and morphs), Soul Trap (and morphs), Infectious Claws (and morphs)[Note: Infectious Claws is very, very difficult to dodge, but it's possible as per my tests], Entropy (and morphs), Volatile Armor

Bad huh? Gets worse:

Ultimates - Soul Strike (and morphs), Dawnbreaker (and morphs), Elemental Storm (and morphs), Meteor (and morphs), Dragonknight Standard (and morphs), Bat Swarm (and morphs), Consuming Darkness (and morphs), Soul Shred (and morphs), Summon Storm Atronach (and morphs), Negate Magic (and morphs), Radial Sweep (and morphs), Nova (and morphs), Sleet Storm (and morphs), Soul Harvest

And one ultimate which you can't mitigate by dodging once it has been applied: Lacerate (and morphs)

That's not all.

DW/2H Bleeds, Skoria proc, DoT set bonuses, lightning/resto heavy attacks - all undodgeable as well.


No matter how you put it, the vast majority of damage in the game is undodgeable. Worth noting though is that somewhat ironically stamina builds (apart from Warden & Templar) have the least amount of undodgeable attacks.

So based on this, we can lower any perceived practical value granted by medium armor's dodge roll cost reduction (20% with 5 medium). Not that it really matters, since the cost is stacking exponentially.

Just using the build I'm experimenting with atm (5 Hundings 5 Sheer Venom 2 Selene), here's an example of how many times I can dodge roll in a row (dodge roll cost 2585 with 56 points in Tumbling & 5 medium): 2585(+33%)->3438(+33%)->4573(+33%)->6081(+33%)->8088(+33%)->10 758

6 dodge rolls in a row and that's 35 523 stamina spent.

How about same setup in 5 heavy instead?

Dodge roll cost only goes up to 2973 as medium armor & CP modifiers are multiplicative.

2973(+33%)->3954(+33%)->5259(+33%)->6994(+33%)->9302(+33%)->12 372

So we "only" end up spending 5k more stamina dodging 6 times in a row, all things considered that's not a pretty big loss, especially when you no longer have to dodge roll the few dodgeable attacks left in this game thanks to higher mitigation.


...which brings us to the next portion. How much does the extra mitigation and healing received affect actual combat in PvP? Let's take a 100k tooltip Soul Assault as an example.

5/1/1 Full Legendary medium nets you 19% Spell Resistance

A 100K Soul Assault tooltip->28 571 damage/second, which gets halved to 14 286/second in PvP. We reduce 19% from that (let's assume there's equal amounts of penetration & armor buffs) and we get 11 572 damage/second on average.

Let's assume we're blocking (because what other option is there): -50% to that equals 5786 damage/second on average.

Now, my Vigor tooltip with 4461 weapon damage and 34 059 stamina is 14 997 over 5 seconds, which is halved in PvP (7499) - meaning 1500 health/second on average. We deduce that from the Soul Assault damage, and we'll "only" take 4286 damage from it through block.

Health Recovery (at 367 with 5 medium) also reduces another 642 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 3644 damage/second through block.


Now let's look at heavy armor.

Assuming the same setup (which isn't BiS for heavy, far from it), your Spell Resistance will be 24%, but your weapon damage will drop from 4461 to 4296.

14 286-24%->10 857-50%(block)=5429 damage/second

Now Vigor. With 4296 weapon damage, Vigor has a tooltip of 14 676. The healing received gets increased by 8% from Rapid Mending, so you get 15 850 health over 5 seconds. Halved in PvP & divided by five, we get to 1585 health/second on average.

5429-1585=3844

Health Recovery (at 417 with 5 heavy) also reduces another 730 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 3114 damage/second through block.

So heavy armor is able to mitigate 15.6851% more damage on average than medium armor after you count in Vigor & health recovery (Rally and any other self heal would further widen the gap).


However, the real difference comes with the sets available to heavy & medium:

Legion+Fury for example will net you a Vigor tooltip of 16029(+8%)->17 311, or 1731 health/second on average (+some small heals from Legion) - this leads to Soul Assault dealing an average 3698 damage/second.

Health Recovery (at 587 with 5 heavy & a set bonus from Legion) also reduces another 1027 from the damage taken, so you end up taking 2671 damage/second through block.

30.8155% difference to what a medium setup that goes all in for high heals/dmg (at the cost of sustain) would give you.


Speaking of sustain, let's compare those next:

With the medium setup, I have 1391 Stamina Recovery & 1091 Magicka Recovery.

With the same buffs & CPs, Legion+Fury heavy armor build (with the same monster set) gets you 1257 Stamina Recovery (a 10% difference) & 1091 Magicka Recovery. However, with 5 heavy Constitution can be considered equal to 270 Stamina/Magicka Recovery, so in fact you get more stamina & magicka recovery in a heavy armor build (1527 "stamina regen" & 1361 "magicka regen") than you do in medium, unless you get multiple set bonuses from gear (in which case if you're medium, you're giving up damage/healing for sustain and thus further widening difference seen above between damage mitigated/outhealed).

Surprise Attack in 5/1/1 Heavy costs you 2250 stamina
Surprise Attack in 5/1/1 Medium costs you 2066 stamina

A difference of 184 stamina.

Assuming you manage to spam Surprise Attack once every 1,3s (weave time with GCD) with no downtime, you'd need 313 stamina regen to get even, which is covered by Constitution alone in the comparison I made above, so you don't even need cost reduction or regen on jewelry to get even.


So yeah, just some little maths detailing why heavy armor is significantly stronger at the moment. I believe that if dodge roll was a more reliable defense, the cost reduction on that with medium could be used as an argument.

But even so, the amount of times you can dodge doesn't really differ (see above), so I do think medium needs significant buffs to get on par with heavy.
Edited by LegendaryMage on August 21, 2017 12:15PM
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  • melloni_aleb16_ESO
    melloni_aleb16_ESO
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    Possible solution of zos :

    - Shuffle is not usable with heavy armour but only with 5 pieces of medium armor ...

    so

    Heavy armour useless and Medium armour Will continue to suck

    #joinWrobelmentality


    ( I have to wait until crowfall :( )
    Edited by melloni_aleb16_ESO on August 18, 2017 9:48PM
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  • Chrlynsch
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    -Try blocking their heavy attack and hit them with cost increases, root them is often as possible
    -I agree with shuffle restrictions. But I am not a fan of its rng as is

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  • LegendaryMage
    LegendaryMage
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    Chrlynsch wrote: »
    -Try blocking their heavy attack and hit them with cost increases, root them is often as possible
    -I agree with shuffle restrictions. But I am not a fan of its rng as is

    There's no blocking heavy attack spam, stamina drain is huge nowadays. The mechanic looks 'nice' on paper but is utterly abused in practice where you do 1-2 skills into a heavy attack (get that stamina back), 1-2 skills into another heavy attack until you wear your opponent down.

    I tested with my stamina templar in med and heavy. There is no comparison, heavy is just 3 times better and it doesn't make any sense since heavy should be for tanking and absorbing damage, not dps.

    In fact, if you want to sustain well in heavy, you build around rapid mending stam return. Bump it up another 10% in the cps, now you got 35% more resources on heavy attacks and you're rivaling medium sustain easily, plus heavy attacks deal some damage too, it's not like they're completely useless.
    Edited by LegendaryMage on August 18, 2017 10:02PM
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  • Solariken
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    I like how shuffle keeps getting pegged as used by heavy armor wearer. Sure I bet some do, but I don't see it nearly as much and I don't see it dodging 5 abilities in a row anymore. (Finally)

    I think both Light and Heavy are in good places.

    I feel medium armor should have a natural crit resistance, or anything to encourage less yolo glass cannons and more TTK based involvement

    They all use Shuffle man - it's less about the extra dodge, more about the unmatched mobility offered by this skill.
  • olsborg
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    Heavy armor is grossly overpowered compared to medium.
    I wouldnt say "grossly" overpowered, but yes, its is considerably stronger and balance needs to be looked at.

    - Consider tuning down offensive heavy armor sets, there should be no reason for me to run heavy armor and have more damage overall than in medium.
    Agreed, if you look at all the wepdmg bonuses that you can find in heavy armor sets and by how much they actually buff wepdmg stat, its pretty much ridiculous for it to be that way. Medium armor is supposed to be the offencive armor so I dunno wtf happened here.

    - Restrict armor actives to their armor tree, 5+ pieces required to use that active ability. No more shuffle on heavy armor, in fact, major evasion in heavy armor probably shouldn't be allowed at all.
    Agreed, this should have been a requirement from day 1. All the armor skills should work like this, the heavy armor skill should perhaps recieve a slight buff to improve its usefulness. Major evasion only for medium armor.

    , get rid of those proc sets, no one asked for them, no one competent likes them, having your armor do damage for you is incredibly stupid.
    Agreed 100%



    My own imediate tought about medium armor: The passive called Agility needs a flat wep dmg stat like 300-350 or so, the whole point of medium armor (imo) is being sustainy, if your wep dmg base isnt extremely high, this passive will only help a slight amount. The Improved Sneak passive also needs some tuning/revamp cause it doesnt rly help much in pvp or pve in a combat scenario. Consider making it into something like 250-300 critical resist passive, because it makes sense for people to hit you less critically whilst you are in medium armor being all acrobatic etc.


    Good Post @LegendaryMage , medium armor has been underperforming for a good long while now, and its only getting worse since 90% of all the hard hitter skills in pvp is undodgeable.
    Edited by olsborg on August 18, 2017 11:45PM
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  • Waffennacht
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    @olsborg the buff to immovable would have to be substantial to make it comparable to Annulment and Evasion, it's cost is tremendous and most builds and sets offer the Major Ward.

    I think the cost of blocking would be less than activating Immovable every 5 seconds and both would still provide knock back and disabling effect immunity.

    And once it was made good, then there will be massive QQ about access to a CC immunity that only Heavy has access too - and more Sorc is OP threads because they would be the only class with a shield in all armors again
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  • Malic
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    It's rather simple, Med needs an armor buff. Windwalker is basically useless, you can manage with heavy pretty effectively. Thats why blackrose was so powerful and killed med.

    Windwalker needs to be looked at, its not horrible but who is slotting med armor for the regen/stam reduction bonus's? I mean you'll take it but I can HA in heavy armor and get from rapid mending and when Iget hit I have constitution giving me resources.

    So id like to see windwalker keep the cost reduction bonus but replace the stam recovery with crit. I'll live with getting rolled if I can proc more damage.
    Edited by Malic on August 18, 2017 11:58PM
  • IcyDeadPeople
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    Malic wrote: »
    It's rather simple, Med needs an armor buff. Windwalker is basically useless, you can manage with heavy pretty effectively. Thats why blackrose was so powerful and killed med.

    Windwalker needs to be looked at, its not horrible but who is slotting med armor for the regen/stam reduction bonus's? I mean you'll take it but I can HA in heavy armor and get from rapid mending and when Iget hit I have constitution giving me resources.

    So id like to see windwalker keep the cost reduction bonus but replace the stam recovery with crit. I'll live with getting rolled if I can proc more damage.

    Medium already has weapon crit buff (Dexterity). I wouldn't remove the regen/ stam cost reduction bonus, but I'd suggest to add armor penetration to medium (similar to light passive Concentration) and add spell damage to light passives (similar to med passive Agility).

    I think it's OK if heavy has strong sustain from Constitution which is useful for tanking, but would be a bit more tradeoff in terms of damage if 5pc light / medium have the armor pen/spell pen and weapon damage/spell damage bonuses.




    Edited by IcyDeadPeople on August 19, 2017 12:10AM
  • Merkabeh
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    I like the idea of Pen for medium; but not a fan of armor skills being limited to 3-5 pieces of that set. For purely selfish reasons, my tank is using Shuffle + Tava's... :(
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  • IcyDeadPeople
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    tplink3r1 wrote: »
    Why do some people insist in lies? No, HA doesn't give you neither more damage nor more sustain than the other two options.
    Just by the fact you people feel you have to LIE in order to try to make your point is already a hint for ZOS not to listen to you.

    It doesn't provide more damage certainly, but it does provide better sustain depending on your build. Sustain from Constitution doesn't rely on stacking recovery stat, and can be quite high when you are getting attacked. It's less than it was before Morrowind patch, but still very good. I don't think Constitution should be nerfed further, though, because if you are tanking you certainly need some way to get resources and this fits with the intent of heavy armor.
  • Drakkdjinn
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Don't nerf heavy further.

    Buff med.

    quoted for truth
  • kaithuzar
    kaithuzar
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    Heavy armor isn't exactly giving you a ton of damage, nor is it giving a ton of sustain like black rose use to. IMO I feel like what the OP is frustrated with is that his opponents can create a clever alchemist build with heavy armor & wreck him within that small potion duration.
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  • SydneyGrey
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    Heavy armor was already nerfed.
    Also, people have a DPS and sustain loss when they use heavy armor. If you think heavy armor is so OP, they why aren't you using it? Oh, right .. because you know your DPS and sustain will go down the toilet if you do.
    #NoMoreNerfs
    Buff medium, leave heavy alone.

    Edited by SydneyGrey on August 19, 2017 6:04AM
  • Rahotu
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    meh,just take armour passives out of pvp,problem solvered
  • Rahotu
    Rahotu
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Rahotu wrote: »
    meh,just take armour passives out of pvp,problem solvered

    ...and then people just equip the gear with highest mitigation, heavy. Problem just got 10x worse :P


    TBH, I'd like to see armor types affect your movement speed - that'd be realistic and could help balance them in PvP without really affecting PvE (though it could make tanks use sprint on certain boss mechanics).

    Light armor could stay as it is, while medium gets a movement speed bonus.

    i'm no expert but I always saw the passives being multiplied as the issue as opposed to the simple mitigation,but i'm just a lowly bow user with bad hands
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