Kilandros wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

DKs can tank in larger groups and also can run supportive roles really nicely. We still often use a DK in some situations although I agree it would be nice to see all classes be viable for all roles.

DK damage is somewhat lacking in a perfect group comp but they can be made to work really well if you have the right mindset for it. I.e. boosting others dmg contributes to your own performance.

Even as a pure support build, a DK in group simply represents a lost Negate or a lost Permafrost. There's nothing a support DK can do that a support Sorcerer/Warden/Templar can't do better. Pretty much the only people who continue to run DKs in large competitive PvP groups do so out of a desire to stick with the class rather than a desire to be an optimal support build.

Hey kil come pvp akinos and I want to do dk things

DDuke wrote: »

I don't think I'm experienced enough with group vs group dynamics to comment further, but I just wanted to bring this up:

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Night blades and sorcs bring stronger destros

Doesn't a magicka DK get much stronger destro ulti than either of those two with the 6% AoE fire damage from Ardent Flame passive?

You'd need to get roughly 500 spell dmg from Expert Mage or Master Assassin passive to match that (or 5k magicka from Magicka Flood).

Simply put, no other class comes close to the damage output/ultimate generation of a Nightblade with Destro Ult. Front Bar Soul Harvest, Magicka Flood Passive, Crit Damage Passive, and Sap Essence spamming just outperforms every other class for the purpose bombing. It's not even close.

DDuke wrote: »

I don't think I'm experienced enough with group vs group dynamics to comment further, but I just wanted to bring this up:

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Night blades and sorcs bring stronger destros

Doesn't a magicka DK get much stronger destro ulti than either of those two with the 6% AoE fire damage from Ardent Flame passive?

You'd need to get roughly 500 spell dmg from Expert Mage or Master Assassin passive to match that (or 5k magicka from Magicka Flood).

No, those passives only apply to ardent flame skills.

DDuke wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't think I'm experienced enough with group vs group dynamics to comment further, but I just wanted to bring this up:

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Night blades and sorcs bring stronger destros

Doesn't a magicka DK get much stronger destro ulti than either of those two with the 6% AoE fire damage from Ardent Flame passive?

You'd need to get roughly 500 spell dmg from Expert Mage or Master Assassin passive to match that (or 5k magicka from Magicka Flood).

No, those passives only apply to ardent flame skills.

Strange, tested it & this indeed seems to be the case.

Every other damage % increasing passive increases the damage of procs & non-class skills as well.


This sounds like a bug, or atleast a serious inconsistency between the classes & their passives.

Yeah that's how it's always worked, sadly it means it doesn't even apply to all of our class skills. Unless its recently changed it doesn't even apply to leap/talons/inhale/eruption because they aren't ardent flame skills. It should be changed to a flat flame damage buff to match the shock damage from sorcs and frost/magic damage from wardens, would go a long way in making DK's viable in a DPS role for group PvP.

SelfTherapy wrote: »

Who cares if it's not perfect for a goup, I have the most fun on my mag dk, leaping across areas is hilarious, especially when you can two hit someone with a leap and flame whip. It disappoints me how people just want to be the best, just have fun with whatever class you play on, you're going to get AP regardless.

A lot of us care, clearly. I'm not asking for DK to be the best at everything, we've had that meta already. But I want it to be viable for a competitive group comp, currently in large scale group play DK's bring an AoE interrupt and minor brutality, and minor brutality is only useful for heavy stam DPS groups which is a spec only really viable on wardens so even that buff is not that necessary. If you only bring one useful thing to a group, you are basically useless to that group.

The fact that half of the roles listed in the original post revolve around utilizing or countering one skill should raise some red flags about how silly it is that this skill exists.

DDuke wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't think I'm experienced enough with group vs group dynamics to comment further, but I just wanted to bring this up:

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Night blades and sorcs bring stronger destros

Doesn't a magicka DK get much stronger destro ulti than either of those two with the 6% AoE fire damage from Ardent Flame passive?

You'd need to get roughly 500 spell dmg from Expert Mage or Master Assassin passive to match that (or 5k magicka from Magicka Flood).

No, those passives only apply to ardent flame skills.

Strange, tested it & this indeed seems to be the case.

Every other damage % increasing passive increases the damage of procs & non-class skills as well.


This sounds like a bug, or atleast a serious inconsistency between the classes & their passives.

If my memory serves, the ardent flame passives used to apply to destro staff fire abilities back in 1.3 to 1.5 days. That is why you used to see lots of destro back bar dks. I think the destro staff passives applied to non destro skills, also.

This was changed initially in the 1.6 transition and then again at 1.7 (ardent flame passive nerfs).

There are always some dudes biting about so called perma-block under almost every posts involving dragonknight. STAMINA regeneration from Earthen Heart abilities has been cut down to 990 stams straight up not buff-able for lv50 players, so perma-block was a thing now.


While some of their NB have unlimited chance of firststrike (oh cloak and mass hysteria + incap) and stacked bomb for one shot execution, or sorc with highest burst (crystal fragment and mage's wrath have two of the higher coefficient according to uesp skill page among all magicka class skills, mobility (streak to escape and cheap mass crowd control) and protection (10000 non crittable ward in CP PVP on click), not to say some of their warden and templar are excellence heal-on-fighter (jabs, or glory) + inevitable damage dealer (radiant destruction, potl and morph, cliff racers)

LOL, dragonknight? ain't that a class automatically makes you a skyrim fanboy + free ap before some pro eso players' eyes?

DK DOENS'T NEED A BUFF TO BECOME THE SECOND TEMPLAR


to conclude, you have to clinch the ruby throne in CP PvP campaign to experience the full magicka dragonknight since a year and a half ago; be-emp erases major deficiencies of the class.


EDIT: WORD

leepalmer95 wrote: »

We not including the aoe snares, aoe roots, overall aoe dmg?

The fact you can build them to be very tanky and still do noticeable dmg?

If your a complete zergling which i assume most of this forum is nowdays then use chains to pick out squishy or priority targets like healers.

Both leaps are great, one of if not the best ult in the game overall. Goes through roll and has the highest burst damage, both morphs.

This thread is about raid-size groups.

A tanky DK is a non-threat. A damage-specced DK isnt nearly as effective or flexible as a bombblade.

Talons has a 6m radius. Good luck locking down them zergs with that. And you won't kill anything with leap in large scale PvP which is all about stacking destro ultis and insta-melting everything around the group.

Stamina DK is even worse off. Leap + steel tornado is miles behind just bringing another destro ulti to the group.

I don't play my magdk much any more I play my mag warden now who has a burst and counters purma dodge rolling stam builds with my beetles and birds in non my birds hit 4k still

thankyourat wrote: »

It's not just dk, nightblade doesn't really have a place in large group pvp either simply because why play nightblade when you can play a sorc. stamsorc has negate and roots and magsorc had acsees to the destro ultimate in a raid you don't really need a bomber because all of you will time your ultimate and since the destro ultimate is so strong the element of surprise is not needed. just have 2 or 3 sorcs pop destro ultimate together and everyone will die. I do feel however mag dk can have a place in raids for their crowd control ability but honestly a sorc tank can do this job as well and has acsees to negate. Warden is kind of in the same boat it's outclassed by magplar. This is why you see most raids consist of sorcs and templars you don't really need anything else. As long as sorc has the best dps and best pvp tank potential you want see alot of dks

Nightblades make up almost 30% of the entire population of pvp....magicka nb are

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

After reading the first couple pages, a lot of you are totally missing the point. Yes DK's can perform well solo/small scale open world. Yes they are playable in a raid. But the fact is that in a competitive group a DK is a wasted slot for a roll that can be better filled by every other class. Night blades and sorcs bring stronger destros, night blades bring better hard CC (aoe fear vs signle target CC) and sorcs can streak (again, aoe CC), any class can achieve the desired effect of a leap with meteor and an ice comet from a mag warden will hit much harder, why drop a banner when wardens get a spammable skill that gives you aoe major defile, why bother with talons spam when a sorc can encase more effectively and as @Kilandros said, every DK you replace with a sorc is another negate in your rotation.

We all know that DK is playable, they still have some issues but the balance adjustments of the last few patches have moved them to a good point (aside from battle roar, that change was dumb). We just want DK's to have a vital role for group play again like every other class does.

Even in small man they are not needed especially when you outnumbered most of the time... The stam DK sits in the absolute worst situation have lost most of its stam synergy... It benefits much less from the major mending then its magicka brothers since most healing is over time and they have very limited magicka..Helping hands nerf was absolutely one of biggest nerfs i have seen on a class based on stam... 60% nerf on most builds.. Again this was a small buff to magicka...

Helping hands nerf was not needed ... a compromise could have been a cap...

Example base stam return regardless of stam 950
At 19k stam it starts a modest scale up... This does not affect the magicka classes but it give back some of the synergy with stam back..

1200 at 30k
1400 at 40k
1600 at 50k

Keep in mind most Stam DKs would only be running 10 to 14k magicka thats 2- 3 casts then your out of juice on a 36k standard fury build with a 1350 return for 3500 magicka...... This would still be around a 30% nerf to helping hands from earlier patches... also keep in mind your armor buff is around 3k...so your magicka is truly limited..

after tried almost every monster set out there and variations with 5p med,2 heavy and/or light gave up on my stamDK
convert him to magDk but sustain is a big issue and if you got a high elf or dunmer,you are -sadly-wasting time with dk
using mostly as a mule now

my magwarden hits like a track-both pve&pvp,heals,using and applies synergies without have to worry about sustain
if skills delay improve with a future patch,will be next-or better than ultimate god, magSorc