Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

Alucardo · July 2017

It's not really sorcs that are the problem. It's the fact that max magicka increases their already powerful shields and burst damage. You take a sorc with a normal magicka pool, they will still be strong, but not exactly what I would call overpowered. Give a sorc 70k magicka and you'll wish you never ran into them. Massive uncrittable shields and able to instantly burst a player from 50% health.
Yes they are dangerous, but it's more the magicka scaling than the sorc itself.

With The Mage buff next patch I'm sure it will be even more fun.

WreckfulAbandon · July 2017

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

The hoops people will jump through to defend their easy mode sorc.....

Well then enlighten us how you would design it. Sorcs need to survive with 11k resists in light armour. Elaborate. And please don't forget noCP.

1 or 2 of the below depending

Either tone down shields to 6-8 seconds (like every other class) or tone down frags big time.

And

Dark conversion needs to be reworked so that it's more of an overtime return. The skill should be proactive and not reactive.

How can anyone take this seriously? I agree, sorc shields would be fine at 8 sec.

Frags should be toned down "big time?" So you think dmg should be cut in half, travel time doubled, and an extra notification on Miats?

CyrusArya · July 2017

Because none are necessary. Exactly as I had predicted in the last PTS cycle, sorcs were significantly nerfed in reality despite what it seemed like on paper and are relatively much weaker in morrowind than in homestead. Class is perfectly balanced as far as I'm concerned now.

I haven't seen a single good player complain about em, nor have I had any trouble whatsoever vs sorcs unless I'm outnumbered. If you have problems with sorcs in particular in the summer 2017, you are just plain bad.

Drdeath20 · July 2017

Zer0oo wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

It's the combination of the 4
1. Great burst that does not rely on proc sets

2. A shield that when paired with bastion CP allows you to preload your defense

3. Being able to easily streak across hard to navigate gaps

4. Dark conversion being able to a reactionary and instant skill (acting like a strong 2nd potion) rather than being an overtime and proactive skill.

I probably shouldn't say something to that since it is either a troll or someone who got destroyed in pvp by a sorc and now hates sorc.
That can actually every class it i just easy on a sorc (curse+frag) but also quite predictable

Your point? Every mag class has access to a shield and they shield only lasts 6sec

What? Yes streak is a awesome skill and the only reason i can still play solo in cyro with my sorc all other magica classes are almost impossible to play in the perm snare and tryhard meta(stam nb are still better for solo in cyro imo). For BG all classes are fine

never liked that skill, it has a counter but i really dislike that if you manage to interrupt the caster that it doesn't cost them stam(mag for the other morph)

I'll ignore the first part. Just bizarre. I want balance, I'd like to see more about counter play.

-No other magicka class can burst like a sorc. Care to debate that or can we both accept reality?

-you miss the entire point of my post. Sorcs have non ultimate shield that last 10seconds and becomes quite powerful with bastion. This is important because 6 seconds is not enough time to load a shield, fire off a rotation and still have confidence that the shield will be up after. Sorcs shields are not reactionary but proactive. They can be fully committed to defense before they go on the offensive. Wouldn't be such a problem but their burst is unquestioned best.

Like I've said it's the combination.

Sorcs have best burst, can preload their defense, have best mobility and best recovery. They need the nerf hammer. NEED!!!

Thogard · July 2017

Sorcs are fine as-is except for one thing - dark conversion. It allows me to slot two dmg sets on my magsorc and not worry about magic regen because I can use LoS to cast D.C.

I'd say that my sorc is OP against bad players and underpowered against good players. I'd also say that sorc is OP 1v1 and underpowered 4v4 if the other team is a strong premade voice chat 4 man. If you look at the burst combo, the curse is purgeable by a good group with a Templar or with the purge skill. Execute only works if the enemy goes below 25%... so any healing combined with purging the curse would very effectively nullify the sorc dmg. Also magsorcs don't have access to a reliable major defile.. that's a big big issue in high level play.

Really the only OP sorc is a Stam sorc running 3 proc sets, a speed potion, and crit surge for unlimited heals. Sorc is only Stam class in the game that can skip the sustain set due to conversion / deal.

Also, regarding crystal frags... I can't remember the last time I landed that against a good player. I call it the noob cannon because of the very very obvious graphic that telegraphs to the entire world that you're about to use it.. and then get it reflected back on you or dodgerolled (which puts you off balance which gives enemy a boost to dmg). Against a good player, c frag is just a free off balance proc on yourself for their benefit.

Feanor · July 2017

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

It's the combination of the 4
1. Great burst that does not rely on proc sets

2. A shield that when paired with bastion CP allows you to preload your defense

3. Being able to easily streak across hard to navigate gaps

4. Dark conversion being able to a reactionary and instant skill (acting like a strong 2nd potion) rather than being an overtime and proactive skill.

I probably shouldn't say something to that since it is either a troll or someone who got destroyed in pvp by a sorc and now hates sorc.
That can actually every class it i just easy on a sorc (curse+frag) but also quite predictable

Your point? Every mag class has access to a shield and they shield only lasts 6sec

What? Yes streak is a awesome skill and the only reason i can still play solo in cyro with my sorc all other magica classes are almost impossible to play in the perm snare and tryhard meta(stam nb are still better for solo in cyro imo). For BG all classes are fine

never liked that skill, it has a counter but i really dislike that if you manage to interrupt the caster that it doesn't cost them stam(mag for the other morph)

I'll ignore the first part. Just bizarre. I want balance, I'd like to see more about counter play.

-No other magicka class can burst like a sorc. Care to debate that or can we both accept reality?

-you miss the entire point of my post. Sorcs have non ultimate shield that last 10seconds and becomes quite powerful with bastion. This is important because 6 seconds is not enough time to load a shield, fire off a rotation and still have confidence that the shield will be up after. Sorcs shields are not reactionary but proactive. They can be fully committed to defense before they go on the offensive. Wouldn't be such a problem but their burst is unquestioned best.

Like I've said it's the combination.

Sorcs have best burst, can preload their defense, have best mobility and best recovery. They need the nerf hammer. NEED!!!

Yes, your posts are quite bizarre. Starting with the fact you outright refuse to accept that noCP is a legitimate and well populated play mode in this game. Ending with the fact that you claim you want balance when all you want is Sorcs to lose their burst and their defense. I never thought I'd be glad that Wheeler and Wrobel do the game balancing. But people like you make it much easier to accept that both are not the worst it could get.

Teridaxus · July 2017

The only thing which i hate about sorcs is that *** implosion passive...it's a freaking passive, not even a proc set and hits harder than snipe and wrecking blow.

Apherius · July 2017

Teridaxus wrote: »

The only thing which i hate about sorcs is that *** implosion passive...it's a freaking passive, not even a proc set and hits harder than snipe and wrecking blow.

he only proc under 15% . and it's 6% chance when we deal lightning damage = Finisher or force pulse .

Drdeath20 · July 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

It's the combination of the 4
1. Great burst that does not rely on proc sets

2. A shield that when paired with bastion CP allows you to preload your defense

3. Being able to easily streak across hard to navigate gaps

4. Dark conversion being able to a reactionary and instant skill (acting like a strong 2nd potion) rather than being an overtime and proactive skill.

I probably shouldn't say something to that since it is either a troll or someone who got destroyed in pvp by a sorc and now hates sorc.
That can actually every class it i just easy on a sorc (curse+frag) but also quite predictable

Your point? Every mag class has access to a shield and they shield only lasts 6sec

What? Yes streak is a awesome skill and the only reason i can still play solo in cyro with my sorc all other magica classes are almost impossible to play in the perm snare and tryhard meta(stam nb are still better for solo in cyro imo). For BG all classes are fine

never liked that skill, it has a counter but i really dislike that if you manage to interrupt the caster that it doesn't cost them stam(mag for the other morph)

I'll ignore the first part. Just bizarre. I want balance, I'd like to see more about counter play.

-No other magicka class can burst like a sorc. Care to debate that or can we both accept reality?

-you miss the entire point of my post. Sorcs have non ultimate shield that last 10seconds and becomes quite powerful with bastion. This is important because 6 seconds is not enough time to load a shield, fire off a rotation and still have confidence that the shield will be up after. Sorcs shields are not reactionary but proactive. They can be fully committed to defense before they go on the offensive. Wouldn't be such a problem but their burst is unquestioned best.

Like I've said it's the combination.

Sorcs have best burst, can preload their defense, have best mobility and best recovery. They need the nerf hammer. NEED!!!

Yes, your posts are quite bizarre. Starting with the fact you outright refuse to accept that noCP is a legitimate and well populated play mode in this game. Ending with the fact that you claim you want balance when all you want is Sorcs to lose their burst and their defense. I never thought I'd be glad that Wheeler and Wrobel do the game balancing. But people like you make it much easier to accept that both are not the worst it could get.

This is just drivel

DDuke · July 2017

CyrusArya wrote: »

Because none are necessary. Exactly as I had predicted in the last PTS cycle, sorcs were significantly nerfed in reality despite what it seemed like on paper and are relatively much weaker in morrowind than in homestead. Class is perfectly balanced as far as I'm concerned now.

I haven't seen a single good player complain about em, nor have I had any trouble whatsoever vs sorcs unless I'm outnumbered. If you have problems with sorcs in particular in the summer 2017, you are just plain bad.

So everyone that disagrees with you and your alternative facts is a "bad player"? Gotcha. Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Meanwhile, we can return to the reality where magicka sorcerer is still the top dog of any duel spot, closely followed by heavy armor cancer builds & medium armor being the underdog in every respect, good only for ganking noobs with proc sets.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

DisgracefulMind · July 2017

Magicka Sorcerers don't need a nerf. At all.

Biro123 · July 2017

DDuke wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Because none are necessary. Exactly as I had predicted in the last PTS cycle, sorcs were significantly nerfed in reality despite what it seemed like on paper and are relatively much weaker in morrowind than in homestead. Class is perfectly balanced as far as I'm concerned now.

I haven't seen a single good player complain about em, nor have I had any trouble whatsoever vs sorcs unless I'm outnumbered. If you have problems with sorcs in particular in the summer 2017, you are just plain bad.

So everyone that disagrees with you and your alternative facts is a "bad player"? Gotcha. Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Meanwhile, we can return to the reality where magicka sorcerer is still the top dog of any duel spot, closely followed by heavy armor cancer builds & medium armor being the underdog in every respect, good only for ganking noobs with proc sets.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

Or there's the other reality, where the game isn't balanced around duels, but is instead balanced for large scale, where shields perform poorly.

WreckfulAbandon · July 2017

DDuke wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Because none are necessary. Exactly as I had predicted in the last PTS cycle, sorcs were significantly nerfed in reality despite what it seemed like on paper and are relatively much weaker in morrowind than in homestead. Class is perfectly balanced as far as I'm concerned now.

I haven't seen a single good player complain about em, nor have I had any trouble whatsoever vs sorcs unless I'm outnumbered. If you have problems with sorcs in particular in the summer 2017, you are just plain bad.

So everyone that disagrees with you and your alternative facts is a "bad player"? Gotcha. Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Meanwhile, we can return to the reality where magicka sorcerer is still the top dog of any duel spot, closely followed by heavy armor cancer builds & medium armor being the underdog in every respect, good only for ganking noobs with proc sets.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

The reality is that Magicka Sorcs share the upper tier of dueling with quite a few other specs, including medium armor users.

Ghost-Shot · July 2017

Sorcs have a hidden class passive that makes them immune to nerfs, they spent the first 9 months of the game second only to DK's and have been getting stronger every patch since. The only anomaly being the shield nerf but that's not honestly that big of a deal, they cast them frequently anyway.

DDuke · July 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Because none are necessary. Exactly as I had predicted in the last PTS cycle, sorcs were significantly nerfed in reality despite what it seemed like on paper and are relatively much weaker in morrowind than in homestead. Class is perfectly balanced as far as I'm concerned now.

I haven't seen a single good player complain about em, nor have I had any trouble whatsoever vs sorcs unless I'm outnumbered. If you have problems with sorcs in particular in the summer 2017, you are just plain bad.

So everyone that disagrees with you and your alternative facts is a "bad player"? Gotcha. Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Meanwhile, we can return to the reality where magicka sorcerer is still the top dog of any duel spot, closely followed by heavy armor cancer builds & medium armor being the underdog in every respect, good only for ganking noobs with proc sets.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

Or there's the other reality, where the game isn't balanced around duels, but is instead balanced for large scale, where shields perform poorly.

So your logic revolves around: multiple people can Xv1 sorcs easily, so shields are balanced. I hope I don't need to point out the flaws in that logic.

Also, while we're talking about 1vX: if you can't 1v1 someone as a medium armor user, how the hell do you expect to 1vX them??

This is why game has to be balanced around 1v1 first, and then expanded from there - just like a good theorycrafter would first come up with a build that excels in 1v1 and then starts thinking how it could be made better for 1vX.

There have been times when the game was much better balanced, for example after the Imperial City patch you could 1v1 and 1vX as almost any stamina/magicka build (ok, maybe with the exception of stam sorcs) if you were a good player. Every class/armor type had a good chance against every other class/armor type.

Balance has only gone downhill since then & doesn't seem to be getting any better with current FOTM builds getting buffed by having even more magicka & medium armor stamina builds (aka the garbage) not getting any beneficial changes.

Feanor · July 2017

1vX should never be a factor. If the X doesn't fully consist of potatoes that is.

DDuke · July 2017

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Because none are necessary. Exactly as I had predicted in the last PTS cycle, sorcs were significantly nerfed in reality despite what it seemed like on paper and are relatively much weaker in morrowind than in homestead. Class is perfectly balanced as far as I'm concerned now.

I haven't seen a single good player complain about em, nor have I had any trouble whatsoever vs sorcs unless I'm outnumbered. If you have problems with sorcs in particular in the summer 2017, you are just plain bad.

So everyone that disagrees with you and your alternative facts is a "bad player"? Gotcha. Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Meanwhile, we can return to the reality where magicka sorcerer is still the top dog of any duel spot, closely followed by heavy armor cancer builds & medium armor being the underdog in every respect, good only for ganking noobs with proc sets.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

The reality is that Magicka Sorcs share the upper tier of dueling with quite a few other specs, including medium armor users.

This is bs.

Medium armor is the worst it has ever been. Even back in 2014 before Vigor was introduced and most stam builds had 0 self heals, medium armor was more competitive (and I even have footage to prove it).

The only people medium armor users currently beat are other medium armor users & less skilled players.

CyrusArya · July 2017

DDuke wrote: »

So everyone that disagrees with you and your alternative facts is a "bad player"? Gotcha. Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Meanwhile, we can return to the reality where magicka sorcerer is still the top dog of any duel spot, closely followed by heavy armor cancer builds & medium armor being the underdog in every respect, good only for ganking noobs with proc sets.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

You can't prove a (biased) opinion wrong. But yes, it is MY opinion that if you struggle with sorcs in particular (to the degree that you need to whine about it publicly) you are a bad player. They are no stronger or weaker than other classes played right.

The fact that you think medium armor is underdog in every respect tells me to just disregard anything you say cus you have no idea what you're talking about.

Father_X_Zombie · July 2017

Lol they just nerfed frags because of everyone's complaining. What more do you want? Other then mag nbs, Sorcs seem to be the most frequently nerfed class

Derra · July 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

I like how we´re conviniently ignoring heals here as far as defense mechanics go matey

WreckfulAbandon · July 2017

DDuke wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Because none are necessary. Exactly as I had predicted in the last PTS cycle, sorcs were significantly nerfed in reality despite what it seemed like on paper and are relatively much weaker in morrowind than in homestead. Class is perfectly balanced as far as I'm concerned now.

I haven't seen a single good player complain about em, nor have I had any trouble whatsoever vs sorcs unless I'm outnumbered. If you have problems with sorcs in particular in the summer 2017, you are just plain bad.

So everyone that disagrees with you and your alternative facts is a "bad player"? Gotcha. Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Meanwhile, we can return to the reality where magicka sorcerer is still the top dog of any duel spot, closely followed by heavy armor cancer builds & medium armor being the underdog in every respect, good only for ganking noobs with proc sets.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

The reality is that Magicka Sorcs share the upper tier of dueling with quite a few other specs, including medium armor users.

This is bs.

Medium armor is the worst it has ever been. Even back in 2014 before Vigor was introduced and most stam builds had 0 self heals, medium armor was more competitive (and I even have footage to prove it).

The only people medium armor users currently beat are other medium armor users & less skilled players.

I know of a certain Stamplar spec and a certain Stamsorc spec that can absolutely shred in 1v1. They both put out insane dmg and they both require medium armor. I dunno about StamDK anymore but I imagine there are still OP setups. Stamblade can kill super quick with procs.

I dusted off my old Stamsorc after 2 years, outfitted with non-BiS gear, and proceeded to shred ppl of all classes 1v1 in BG's and Cyrodiil with it.

DDuke · July 2017

CyrusArya wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So everyone that disagrees with you and your alternative facts is a "bad player"? Gotcha. Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Meanwhile, we can return to the reality where magicka sorcerer is still the top dog of any duel spot, closely followed by heavy armor cancer builds & medium armor being the underdog in every respect, good only for ganking noobs with proc sets.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

You can't prove a (biased) opinion wrong. But yes, it is MY opinion that if you struggle with sorcs in particular (to the degree that you need to whine about it publicly) you are a bad player. They are no stronger or weaker than other classes played right.

The fact that you think medium armor is underdog in every respect tells me to just disregard anything you say cus you have no idea what you're talking about.

Ok, so instead of facts or anything of substance you've come back with more ad hominems - classy, but quite what I expected from a nobody.

Derra · July 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

Oh may I chime in then?

Reduce the proc time of Mage's Fury to 2 seconds rather than 4. This way when someone gets auto-executed it's done a little more aggressively. Rather than the set it, and forget it style that we currently have.

Nerf haunting curse's damage by 30%, and replace Daedric Prey with the original Vicious Curse with no damage nerf. They'll nerf rearming trap's damage by 30% because it goes off twice, but not this? A bit inconsistent.

There needs to be no bonus damage given to proc'd Crystal frag. It hits VERY hard, it costs half as much, it CCs, and it's instant; there's no need for bonus damage.

A change to damage shields:

They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.

Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll

Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

These suggestions are so bad I don't know if you're trolling or if you think that would be balanced.

I could maybe get behind shortening the pre execute of endless fury. It would reduce burst, and timing burst is already not easy. Because that super frag proc you mentioned is a projectile that's one of the easiest to avoid if you're not a) close range or b) the target is occupied elsewhere and inattentive. Also the bonus damage was already reduced by 10% last patches.

Nerfing curse again would take away burst. Burst you successfully have to line up over 3 abilities. Compare that to stam burst through set pieces or the infamous Incap -> SA.

Finally, shields. Hardened Ward is not cheap. I'd have to look up the exact numbers but it costs around 2100 mag IIRC on my Sorc. Harness Magicka clocks in at around 2900 or something. You want to double that. Have fun playing on a noCP campaign with 35k total Magicka when one of you shields costs 4 to 6k.

It would be better to just delete the class on that case.

If Hardened Ward isn't cheap, then why can people still spam them non-stop even without going full into sustain gear?

And why does it instantly shield you from twice the damage that Vigor (which, btw, costs more than Hardened Ward) heals over 5 seconds?

These are balance issues, like it or not.

Because of how hots interact with other defense mechanics - most prominently: Block.

Also have you figured in your crit and critheal modifier when comparing vigor to hardened? On top of that vigor is an aoe heal.

I don´t disagree there are balance issues with shields - but it´s not hardened ward on a nonstacked magica build.
Imo total shieldstrengh should be limited to 60 to 70% of a character maximum hp and double that out of cyro. Would alliviate a lot of issues with super high magica builds, shieldstacking harness and hardened or hardened/harness + healingward @ low hp.

Biro123 · July 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Because none are necessary. Exactly as I had predicted in the last PTS cycle, sorcs were significantly nerfed in reality despite what it seemed like on paper and are relatively much weaker in morrowind than in homestead. Class is perfectly balanced as far as I'm concerned now.

I haven't seen a single good player complain about em, nor have I had any trouble whatsoever vs sorcs unless I'm outnumbered. If you have problems with sorcs in particular in the summer 2017, you are just plain bad.

So everyone that disagrees with you and your alternative facts is a "bad player"? Gotcha. Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Meanwhile, we can return to the reality where magicka sorcerer is still the top dog of any duel spot, closely followed by heavy armor cancer builds & medium armor being the underdog in every respect, good only for ganking noobs with proc sets.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

Or there's the other reality, where the game isn't balanced around duels, but is instead balanced for large scale, where shields perform poorly.

So your logic revolves around: multiple people can Xv1 sorcs easily, so shields are balanced. I hope I don't need to point out the flaws in that logic.

Also, while we're talking about 1vX: if you can't 1v1 someone as a medium armor user, how the hell do you expect to 1vX them??

This is why game has to be balanced around 1v1 first, and then expanded from there - just like a good theorycrafter would first come up with a build that excels in 1v1 and then starts thinking how it could be made better for 1vX.

There have been times when the game was much better balanced, for example after the Imperial City patch you could 1v1 and 1vX as almost any stamina/magicka build (ok, maybe with the exception of stam sorcs) if you were a good player. Every class/armor type had a good chance against every other class/armor type.

Balance has only gone downhill since then & doesn't seem to be getting any better with current FOTM builds getting buffed by having even more magicka & medium armor stamina builds (aka the garbage) not getting any beneficial changes.

You are blatently ignoring the fact that some defences scale very well with more attackers, and some scale very badly. You know this and its very disingenuous to ignore it. To scale shields for 1v1 would have to go hand-in-hand with scaling dodge for xv1... Like maybe allow a single dodge-roll to only avoid a Max of 3 attacks.

You cannot weaken shields for cp 1v1 without ruining them for XvX and/or CP.

DDuke · July 2017

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Because none are necessary. Exactly as I had predicted in the last PTS cycle, sorcs were significantly nerfed in reality despite what it seemed like on paper and are relatively much weaker in morrowind than in homestead. Class is perfectly balanced as far as I'm concerned now.

I haven't seen a single good player complain about em, nor have I had any trouble whatsoever vs sorcs unless I'm outnumbered. If you have problems with sorcs in particular in the summer 2017, you are just plain bad.

So everyone that disagrees with you and your alternative facts is a "bad player"? Gotcha. Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Meanwhile, we can return to the reality where magicka sorcerer is still the top dog of any duel spot, closely followed by heavy armor cancer builds & medium armor being the underdog in every respect, good only for ganking noobs with proc sets.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

The reality is that Magicka Sorcs share the upper tier of dueling with quite a few other specs, including medium armor users.

This is bs.

Medium armor is the worst it has ever been. Even back in 2014 before Vigor was introduced and most stam builds had 0 self heals, medium armor was more competitive (and I even have footage to prove it).

The only people medium armor users currently beat are other medium armor users & less skilled players.

I know of a certain Stamplar spec and a certain Stamsorc spec that can absolutely shred in 1v1. They both put out insane dmg and they both require medium armor. I dunno about StamDK anymore but I imagine there are still OP setups. Stamblade can kill super quick with procs.

I dusted off my old Stamsorc after 2 years, outfitted with non-BiS gear, and proceeded to shred ppl of all classes 1v1 in BG's and Cyrodiil with it.

Well you haven't been playing against good players then.

I run the highest damage setup imaginable for a medium armor stamina build and it isn't enough to "shred" anyone.

Heavy armor takes zero damage from anything you do and shields absorb everything you do.

Meanwhile, a light/heavy armor opponent will capitalize on your lack of mitigation & 1,7k/s~ healing potential (if you're full dmg/stamina like me) and will melt you.

Out of 20+ people on the duel spot, you're lucky to find one medium armor user these days on EU megaserver.

WreckfulAbandon · July 2017

DDuke wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Because none are necessary. Exactly as I had predicted in the last PTS cycle, sorcs were significantly nerfed in reality despite what it seemed like on paper and are relatively much weaker in morrowind than in homestead. Class is perfectly balanced as far as I'm concerned now.

I haven't seen a single good player complain about em, nor have I had any trouble whatsoever vs sorcs unless I'm outnumbered. If you have problems with sorcs in particular in the summer 2017, you are just plain bad.

So everyone that disagrees with you and your alternative facts is a "bad player"? Gotcha. Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Meanwhile, we can return to the reality where magicka sorcerer is still the top dog of any duel spot, closely followed by heavy armor cancer builds & medium armor being the underdog in every respect, good only for ganking noobs with proc sets.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

The reality is that Magicka Sorcs share the upper tier of dueling with quite a few other specs, including medium armor users.

This is bs.

Medium armor is the worst it has ever been. Even back in 2014 before Vigor was introduced and most stam builds had 0 self heals, medium armor was more competitive (and I even have footage to prove it).

The only people medium armor users currently beat are other medium armor users & less skilled players.

I know of a certain Stamplar spec and a certain Stamsorc spec that can absolutely shred in 1v1. They both put out insane dmg and they both require medium armor. I dunno about StamDK anymore but I imagine there are still OP setups. Stamblade can kill super quick with procs.

I dusted off my old Stamsorc after 2 years, outfitted with non-BiS gear, and proceeded to shred ppl of all classes 1v1 in BG's and Cyrodiil with it.

Well you haven't been playing against good players then.

I run the highest damage setup imaginable for a medium armor stamina build and it isn't enough to "shred" anyone.

Heavy armor takes zero damage from anything you do and shields absorb everything you do.

Meanwhile, a light/heavy armor opponent will capitalize on your lack of mitigation & 1,7k/s~ healing potential (if you're full dmg/stamina like me) and will melt you.

Out of 20+ people on the duel spot, you're lucky to find one medium armor user these days on EU megaserver.

Nothing is going to melt a HA user, but unless it's a Magplar you can reliably wear them down with DoT's. As for shields it's L2P you can definitely shred those.

DDuke · July 2017

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

Oh may I chime in then?

Reduce the proc time of Mage's Fury to 2 seconds rather than 4. This way when someone gets auto-executed it's done a little more aggressively. Rather than the set it, and forget it style that we currently have.

Nerf haunting curse's damage by 30%, and replace Daedric Prey with the original Vicious Curse with no damage nerf. They'll nerf rearming trap's damage by 30% because it goes off twice, but not this? A bit inconsistent.

There needs to be no bonus damage given to proc'd Crystal frag. It hits VERY hard, it costs half as much, it CCs, and it's instant; there's no need for bonus damage.

A change to damage shields:

They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.

Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll

Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

These suggestions are so bad I don't know if you're trolling or if you think that would be balanced.

I could maybe get behind shortening the pre execute of endless fury. It would reduce burst, and timing burst is already not easy. Because that super frag proc you mentioned is a projectile that's one of the easiest to avoid if you're not a) close range or b) the target is occupied elsewhere and inattentive. Also the bonus damage was already reduced by 10% last patches.

Nerfing curse again would take away burst. Burst you successfully have to line up over 3 abilities. Compare that to stam burst through set pieces or the infamous Incap -> SA.

Finally, shields. Hardened Ward is not cheap. I'd have to look up the exact numbers but it costs around 2100 mag IIRC on my Sorc. Harness Magicka clocks in at around 2900 or something. You want to double that. Have fun playing on a noCP campaign with 35k total Magicka when one of you shields costs 4 to 6k.

It would be better to just delete the class on that case.

If Hardened Ward isn't cheap, then why can people still spam them non-stop even without going full into sustain gear?

And why does it instantly shield you from twice the damage that Vigor (which, btw, costs more than Hardened Ward) heals over 5 seconds?

These are balance issues, like it or not.

Because of how hots interact with other defense mechanics - most prominently: Block.

Also have you figured in your crit and critheal modifier when comparing vigor to hardened? On top of that vigor is an aoe heal.

I don´t disagree there are balance issues with shields - but it´s not hardened ward on a nonstacked magica build.
Imo total shieldstrengh should be limited to 60 to 70% of a character maximum hp and double that out of cyro. Would alliviate a lot of issues with super high magica builds, shieldstacking harness and hardened or hardened/harness + healingward @ low hp.

Yeah, I did the math earlier with crit percentage & modifier included.

On average, it's 1,7k healing per second from Vigor not counting Minor/Major defile.

That's one light attack.

And I know heavy armor stamina builds which can actually utilize block are viable currently (another thing that should be nerfed), but blocking isn't an option for medium armor user.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2017

Alucardo wrote: »

It's not really sorcs that are the problem. It's the fact that max magicka increases their already powerful shields and burst damage. You take a sorc with a normal magicka pool, they will still be strong, but not exactly what I would call overpowered. Give a sorc 70k magicka and you'll wish you never ran into them. Massive uncrittable shields and able to instantly burst a player from 50% health.
Yes they are dangerous, but it's more the magicka scaling than the sorc itself.

With The Mage buff next patch I'm sure it will be even more fun.

Yeah i agree. Max stat scaling needs to stop. If someone wants strong burst and shields they shouldnt have tons of fuel in the tank also. Mag sorcs need the dk treatment.

Feanor · July 2017

@DDuke

Highest damage spec? What's your buffed WD then?

@Derra

I feel like talking to a wall. Glad you joined in.

@Joy_Division

Thanks for your very thougful posts as well. Appreciated.

DDuke · July 2017

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Because none are necessary. Exactly as I had predicted in the last PTS cycle, sorcs were significantly nerfed in reality despite what it seemed like on paper and are relatively much weaker in morrowind than in homestead. Class is perfectly balanced as far as I'm concerned now.

I haven't seen a single good player complain about em, nor have I had any trouble whatsoever vs sorcs unless I'm outnumbered. If you have problems with sorcs in particular in the summer 2017, you are just plain bad.

So everyone that disagrees with you and your alternative facts is a "bad player"? Gotcha. Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Meanwhile, we can return to the reality where magicka sorcerer is still the top dog of any duel spot, closely followed by heavy armor cancer builds & medium armor being the underdog in every respect, good only for ganking noobs with proc sets.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

The reality is that Magicka Sorcs share the upper tier of dueling with quite a few other specs, including medium armor users.

This is bs.

Medium armor is the worst it has ever been. Even back in 2014 before Vigor was introduced and most stam builds had 0 self heals, medium armor was more competitive (and I even have footage to prove it).

The only people medium armor users currently beat are other medium armor users & less skilled players.

I know of a certain Stamplar spec and a certain Stamsorc spec that can absolutely shred in 1v1. They both put out insane dmg and they both require medium armor. I dunno about StamDK anymore but I imagine there are still OP setups. Stamblade can kill super quick with procs.

I dusted off my old Stamsorc after 2 years, outfitted with non-BiS gear, and proceeded to shred ppl of all classes 1v1 in BG's and Cyrodiil with it.

Well you haven't been playing against good players then.

I run the highest damage setup imaginable for a medium armor stamina build and it isn't enough to "shred" anyone.

Heavy armor takes zero damage from anything you do and shields absorb everything you do.

Meanwhile, a light/heavy armor opponent will capitalize on your lack of mitigation & 1,7k/s~ healing potential (if you're full dmg/stamina like me) and will melt you.

Out of 20+ people on the duel spot, you're lucky to find one medium armor user these days on EU megaserver.

Nothing is going to melt a HA user, but unless it's a Magplar you can reliably wear them down with DoT's. As for shields it's L2P you can definitely shred those.

Not on a medium armor build. Not when you have Curse, Flame Clench & 2 Pets dealing more DoT damage to you than your Vigor can outheal and when you have to roll dodge as often as possible to avoid instagib frag+curse combos.

Heavy armor can deal with them, since the mitigation/blocking greatly lowers the incoming damage - but medium is way too squishy to survive, (let alone survive & simultaneously nuke targets) currently.