STEVIL wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

if you look at frags - its proc gives you lower cost, higher damage and quick cast aka higher dps. that is damage and sustain all boosted in one and that is not good.

Except it's not, it's pretty much just damage boosted, because no one is hard casting crystal frags, ever.

If they further lowered the cost while also lowering the damage, then you might have an argument here.

I am not sure i get the logic here...

"Other Magicka abilities have a chance to make your next Crystal Fragments instant, deal more damage, and cost less."

The proc is what gives you the damage and the cost and the speed - so how can "Other Magicka abilities have a chance to make your next Crystal Fragments instant, deal more damage, and cost less." apply to some of those elements and not others?

But what i was pointing out was as we move forward into morrowind the value of "and cost less" grows. In a world where sustain matters more "and cost less" is another way of saying "increases dps." So i think having all three on one morph is more problem now than before.

thats why i think splitting the two morphs into "quick and cheap" and "quick and more damage" (letting you choose a dps option or a burst option but not one that is both) is something that needs to be looked at especially given both restore health if they cause damage.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

that's not what happens.

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

and you know it. sorc

I quoted what you said yourself, and I main a shieldless magicka nightblade.

You'll never understand or improve at the game if you don't stop blaming ZOS or balance or the game for your struggles and start blaming yourself.

I think the point that many elite players miss is that classes should be balanced off of the skills and abilities of the average player. Of course you can spout this Zen approach to anything really. Look inside yourself, blaim yourself, use the force, become better, be smarter, look better, whatever, but at the end of the day, a good majority of players don't have this mystical insight you seem to possess. I would argue most players can't block, or roll dodge every Frag coming there way, let alone mitigate unblockable/undodgeable curses, light and heavy Destro weaves, and the ticking time bomb of endless fury.

Whether you agree with it or not, the test isn't whether you, elite player X, you tube video guy Y, Twitch streamer Z, or whoever can beat Sorcs 9 out of 10 times. The test is, if you take two average players, one on a Sorc and another on a Templar, Nightblade, DK, or whatever, with similar quality builds, who prevails more often? Which class performs better in open world? Which class has more utility? Which class is generally more successful? And which player logs off at the end of the night asking themselves WTF is wrong with this game. Judging by the sheer volume of nerf Sorc threads as of late, it would seem the answer is becoming apparent.

In no way am I saying I know the answer to this. All I am saying is I hope this is what ZOS looks at when they look at balance. I guess we will find out.

I understand all of that. Sorc is both a forgiving class to make mistakes on, and a particularly demanding class to play against. I call sorc the training wheels class for a reason.

I think that´s a little too shallow.

Sorc is (given the right gear and skill choices) too easy for an otherwise underperforming player to stay alive on.
Sorc is (again given the right choices) too easy to kill an enemy when outnumbering him (or let them kill themselves in mines).

However even most average or above average sorcs fail to reliably combine survival and offensive gameplay. Some are doing really well at not dying but can´t apply pressure effectively resulting in them being no threat. Some are incredible in applying pressure but cave in when you only look at them.
The ones that are able to combine both outside of 1v1 situations are maybe a handful on the EU server.

The problem here is really how overperforming sorc defensemechanics can be in a 1v1 - when the situation in itself becomes easier by being able to only focus on 1 target.
If you can´t kill a sorc when outnumbering him/her you´re a potatoe - it´s really that simple.

It's not shallow at all. It's the hard truth. How would the same underperforming player perform on other classes? He'd survive about the same on a magplar or tank stam dk, but as a sorc he can actually kill things. Pirate Skeleton, streaking 6 times to get away, and shield spam with infinite resource sustain make potatoes as survivable in pvp right now as anyone else, but as sorcs they also get a handful of undodgeable or unblockable attacks to shoot at people from their zergs.

Derra wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

that's not what happens.

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

and you know it. sorc

I quoted what you said yourself, and I main a shieldless magicka nightblade.

You'll never understand or improve at the game if you don't stop blaming ZOS or balance or the game for your struggles and start blaming yourself.

I think the point that many elite players miss is that classes should be balanced off of the skills and abilities of the average player. Of course you can spout this Zen approach to anything really. Look inside yourself, blaim yourself, use the force, become better, be smarter, look better, whatever, but at the end of the day, a good majority of players don't have this mystical insight you seem to possess. I would argue most players can't block, or roll dodge every Frag coming there way, let alone mitigate unblockable/undodgeable curses, light and heavy Destro weaves, and the ticking time bomb of endless fury.

Whether you agree with it or not, the test isn't whether you, elite player X, you tube video guy Y, Twitch streamer Z, or whoever can beat Sorcs 9 out of 10 times. The test is, if you take two average players, one on a Sorc and another on a Templar, Nightblade, DK, or whatever, with similar quality builds, who prevails more often? Which class performs better in open world? Which class has more utility? Which class is generally more successful? And which player logs off at the end of the night asking themselves WTF is wrong with this game. Judging by the sheer volume of nerf Sorc threads as of late, it would seem the answer is becoming apparent.

In no way am I saying I know the answer to this. All I am saying is I hope this is what ZOS looks at when they look at balance. I guess we will find out.

I understand all of that. Sorc is both a forgiving class to make mistakes on, and a particularly demanding class to play against. I call sorc the training wheels class for a reason.

I think that´s a little too shallow.

Sorc is (given the right gear and skill choices) too easy for an otherwise underperforming player to stay alive on.
Sorc is (again given the right choices) too easy to kill an enemy when outnumbering him (or let them kill themselves in mines).

However even most average or above average sorcs fail to reliably combine survival and offensive gameplay. Some are doing really well at not dying but can´t apply pressure effectively resulting in them being no threat. Some are incredible in applying pressure but cave in when you only look at them.
The ones that are able to combine both outside of 1v1 situations are maybe a handful on the EU server.

The problem here is really how overperforming sorc defensemechanics can be in a 1v1 - when the situation in itself becomes easier by being able to only focus on 1 target.
If you can´t kill a sorc when outnumbering him/her you´re a potatoe - it´s really that simple.

It's not shallow at all. It's the hard truth. How would the same underperforming player perform on other classes? He'd survive about the same on a magplar or tank stam dk, but as a sorc he can actually kill things. Pirate Skeleton, streaking 6 times to get away, and shield spam with infinite resource sustain make potatoes as survivable in pvp right now as anyone else, but as sorcs they also get a handful of undodgeable or unblockable attacks to shoot at people from their zergs.

When talking about shooting out of a zerg he´d be more efficient on a bowblade or templar any day of the week.

You´re mixing scenarios up again. Show me the potatoe that can actually stand their ground as a sorc and kill stuff.

I´m not even arguing that pirate doubleshieldstack is overperforming. BUT i also think if the option to stack harness/dampen + hardened with pirate in the mix aswell gets neutered as it should be - average sorc players are going to have a very hard time finding enjoyment in the class.