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Unofficial Thread for ESO Live Sorc Cuts

  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    STEVIL wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    if you look at frags - its proc gives you lower cost, higher damage and quick cast aka higher dps. that is damage and sustain all boosted in one and that is not good.
    Except it's not, it's pretty much just damage boosted, because no one is hard casting crystal frags, ever.

    If they further lowered the cost while also lowering the damage, then you might have an argument here.

    I am not sure i get the logic here...

    "Other Magicka abilities have a chance to make your next Crystal Fragments instant, deal more damage, and cost less."

    The proc is what gives you the damage and the cost and the speed - so how can "Other Magicka abilities have a chance to make your next Crystal Fragments instant, deal more damage, and cost less." apply to some of those elements and not others?

    But what i was pointing out was as we move forward into morrowind the value of "and cost less" grows. In a world where sustain matters more "and cost less" is another way of saying "increases dps." So i think having all three on one morph is more problem now than before.

    thats why i think splitting the two morphs into "quick and cheap" and "quick and more damage" (letting you choose a dps option or a burst option but not one that is both) is something that needs to be looked at especially given both restore health if they cause damage.
    My logic being that the change has no effect on sustain, as no one hard casts. In that regard, it effectively affects sustain no differently than it does on live. In either case, it's still only cast when it insta-procs.

    Had they lowered the overall cost (more), then I would say this would affect sustain. Also, if there was no cost reduction, just the instant cast and damage bonus, I think you'd find it being used even less than it is now.

    While certainly more predominate in PvP, I doubt frags is a high percentage of overall DPS in PvE. The bonuses were originally presented to this skill due to high base cost plus ease of which it could be avoided.

    I get the value of "and costs less" growing, but even with the "and costs less" version of this skill, it still costs more than on live (due to removal of cost reduction). In that regard, the cost portion is pretty well self-nerfing.

    Every skill will be evaluated for the return vs cost with these changes, and the ones with the most value will undoubtedly become the new skill meta accordingly.

    I do think your proposed morphs have potential, assuming the higher DPS version would be returning to the original damage value, and the cheaper version keeping the same base damage with the discount.

    Edited by Merlin13KAGL on May 1, 2017 4:15PM
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  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
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    Derra wrote: »
    Killset wrote: »
    that's not what happens.
    and you know it. sorc

    I quoted what you said yourself, and I main a shieldless magicka nightblade.

    You'll never understand or improve at the game if you don't stop blaming ZOS or balance or the game for your struggles and start blaming yourself.

    I think the point that many elite players miss is that classes should be balanced off of the skills and abilities of the average player. Of course you can spout this Zen approach to anything really. Look inside yourself, blaim yourself, use the force, become better, be smarter, look better, whatever, but at the end of the day, a good majority of players don't have this mystical insight you seem to possess. I would argue most players can't block, or roll dodge every Frag coming there way, let alone mitigate unblockable/undodgeable curses, light and heavy Destro weaves, and the ticking time bomb of endless fury.

    Whether you agree with it or not, the test isn't whether you, elite player X, you tube video guy Y, Twitch streamer Z, or whoever can beat Sorcs 9 out of 10 times. The test is, if you take two average players, one on a Sorc and another on a Templar, Nightblade, DK, or whatever, with similar quality builds, who prevails more often? Which class performs better in open world? Which class has more utility? Which class is generally more successful? And which player logs off at the end of the night asking themselves WTF is wrong with this game. Judging by the sheer volume of nerf Sorc threads as of late, it would seem the answer is becoming apparent.

    In no way am I saying I know the answer to this. All I am saying is I hope this is what ZOS looks at when they look at balance. I guess we will find out.



    I understand all of that. Sorc is both a forgiving class to make mistakes on, and a particularly demanding class to play against. I call sorc the training wheels class for a reason.

    I think that´s a little too shallow.

    Sorc is (given the right gear and skill choices) too easy for an otherwise underperforming player to stay alive on.
    Sorc is (again given the right choices) too easy to kill an enemy when outnumbering him (or let them kill themselves in mines).

    However even most average or above average sorcs fail to reliably combine survival and offensive gameplay. Some are doing really well at not dying but can´t apply pressure effectively resulting in them being no threat. Some are incredible in applying pressure but cave in when you only look at them.
    The ones that are able to combine both outside of 1v1 situations are maybe a handful on the EU server.

    The problem here is really how overperforming sorc defensemechanics can be in a 1v1 - when the situation in itself becomes easier by being able to only focus on 1 target.
    If you can´t kill a sorc when outnumbering him/her you´re a potatoe - it´s really that simple.

    It's not shallow at all. It's the hard truth. How would the same underperforming player perform on other classes? He'd survive about the same on a magplar or tank stam dk, but as a sorc he can actually kill things. Pirate Skeleton, streaking 6 times to get away, and shield spam with infinite resource sustain make potatoes as survivable in pvp right now as anyone else, but as sorcs they also get a handful of undodgeable or unblockable attacks to shoot at people from their zergs.
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  • Derra
    Derra
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    Derra wrote: »
    Killset wrote: »
    that's not what happens.
    and you know it. sorc

    I quoted what you said yourself, and I main a shieldless magicka nightblade.

    You'll never understand or improve at the game if you don't stop blaming ZOS or balance or the game for your struggles and start blaming yourself.

    I think the point that many elite players miss is that classes should be balanced off of the skills and abilities of the average player. Of course you can spout this Zen approach to anything really. Look inside yourself, blaim yourself, use the force, become better, be smarter, look better, whatever, but at the end of the day, a good majority of players don't have this mystical insight you seem to possess. I would argue most players can't block, or roll dodge every Frag coming there way, let alone mitigate unblockable/undodgeable curses, light and heavy Destro weaves, and the ticking time bomb of endless fury.

    Whether you agree with it or not, the test isn't whether you, elite player X, you tube video guy Y, Twitch streamer Z, or whoever can beat Sorcs 9 out of 10 times. The test is, if you take two average players, one on a Sorc and another on a Templar, Nightblade, DK, or whatever, with similar quality builds, who prevails more often? Which class performs better in open world? Which class has more utility? Which class is generally more successful? And which player logs off at the end of the night asking themselves WTF is wrong with this game. Judging by the sheer volume of nerf Sorc threads as of late, it would seem the answer is becoming apparent.

    In no way am I saying I know the answer to this. All I am saying is I hope this is what ZOS looks at when they look at balance. I guess we will find out.



    I understand all of that. Sorc is both a forgiving class to make mistakes on, and a particularly demanding class to play against. I call sorc the training wheels class for a reason.

    I think that´s a little too shallow.

    Sorc is (given the right gear and skill choices) too easy for an otherwise underperforming player to stay alive on.
    Sorc is (again given the right choices) too easy to kill an enemy when outnumbering him (or let them kill themselves in mines).

    However even most average or above average sorcs fail to reliably combine survival and offensive gameplay. Some are doing really well at not dying but can´t apply pressure effectively resulting in them being no threat. Some are incredible in applying pressure but cave in when you only look at them.
    The ones that are able to combine both outside of 1v1 situations are maybe a handful on the EU server.

    The problem here is really how overperforming sorc defensemechanics can be in a 1v1 - when the situation in itself becomes easier by being able to only focus on 1 target.
    If you can´t kill a sorc when outnumbering him/her you´re a potatoe - it´s really that simple.

    It's not shallow at all. It's the hard truth. How would the same underperforming player perform on other classes? He'd survive about the same on a magplar or tank stam dk, but as a sorc he can actually kill things. Pirate Skeleton, streaking 6 times to get away, and shield spam with infinite resource sustain make potatoes as survivable in pvp right now as anyone else, but as sorcs they also get a handful of undodgeable or unblockable attacks to shoot at people from their zergs.

    When talking about shooting out of a zerg he´d be more efficient on a bowblade or templar any day of the week.

    You´re mixing scenarios up again. Show me the potatoe that can actually stand their ground as a sorc and kill stuff.

    I´m not even arguing that pirate doubleshieldstack is overperforming. BUT i also think if the option to stack harness/dampen + hardened with pirate in the mix aswell gets neutered as it should be - average sorc players are going to have a very hard time finding enjoyment in the class.
    Edited by Derra on May 1, 2017 5:10PM
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  • alexkdd99
    alexkdd99
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    I'm all for sorc nerfs, but this seems like a really, really weird change. I would much rather see the second explosion from Velocious gone and Hardened Ward made unstackable with Harness Magicka. Also, why has Dark Deal made it so long without getting a nerf? If any class had infinite sustain and high damage, it was definitely stam sorc.

    I think even sorcs don't care if the nerfs made sense. Like making shields not stackable. Nerfing dark deal, I don't think I have read anyone say anything against nerfing dark deal.

    Nerfing frags proc bonus damage? Doesn't make sense.

    Also the main shield I am seeing being used is healing ward, a shield available to everyone. With no cp the shields are really expensive and really weak. I switched to a lich build and was able to spam shields, but only while lich proc was up and it definitely hurt my damage wearing lich.

    Even op proposed nerfs don't make sense. Nerf something that needs nerfed, not something random. And yes zos frag extra proc damage was random. Everyone, sorcs included have asked why they nerf 1 thing but yet dark deal remains unchanged.
    Edited by alexkdd99 on May 1, 2017 5:16PM
  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
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    Derra wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Killset wrote: »
    that's not what happens.
    and you know it. sorc

    I quoted what you said yourself, and I main a shieldless magicka nightblade.

    You'll never understand or improve at the game if you don't stop blaming ZOS or balance or the game for your struggles and start blaming yourself.

    I think the point that many elite players miss is that classes should be balanced off of the skills and abilities of the average player. Of course you can spout this Zen approach to anything really. Look inside yourself, blaim yourself, use the force, become better, be smarter, look better, whatever, but at the end of the day, a good majority of players don't have this mystical insight you seem to possess. I would argue most players can't block, or roll dodge every Frag coming there way, let alone mitigate unblockable/undodgeable curses, light and heavy Destro weaves, and the ticking time bomb of endless fury.

    Whether you agree with it or not, the test isn't whether you, elite player X, you tube video guy Y, Twitch streamer Z, or whoever can beat Sorcs 9 out of 10 times. The test is, if you take two average players, one on a Sorc and another on a Templar, Nightblade, DK, or whatever, with similar quality builds, who prevails more often? Which class performs better in open world? Which class has more utility? Which class is generally more successful? And which player logs off at the end of the night asking themselves WTF is wrong with this game. Judging by the sheer volume of nerf Sorc threads as of late, it would seem the answer is becoming apparent.

    In no way am I saying I know the answer to this. All I am saying is I hope this is what ZOS looks at when they look at balance. I guess we will find out.



    I understand all of that. Sorc is both a forgiving class to make mistakes on, and a particularly demanding class to play against. I call sorc the training wheels class for a reason.

    I think that´s a little too shallow.

    Sorc is (given the right gear and skill choices) too easy for an otherwise underperforming player to stay alive on.
    Sorc is (again given the right choices) too easy to kill an enemy when outnumbering him (or let them kill themselves in mines).

    However even most average or above average sorcs fail to reliably combine survival and offensive gameplay. Some are doing really well at not dying but can´t apply pressure effectively resulting in them being no threat. Some are incredible in applying pressure but cave in when you only look at them.
    The ones that are able to combine both outside of 1v1 situations are maybe a handful on the EU server.

    The problem here is really how overperforming sorc defensemechanics can be in a 1v1 - when the situation in itself becomes easier by being able to only focus on 1 target.
    If you can´t kill a sorc when outnumbering him/her you´re a potatoe - it´s really that simple.

    It's not shallow at all. It's the hard truth. How would the same underperforming player perform on other classes? He'd survive about the same on a magplar or tank stam dk, but as a sorc he can actually kill things. Pirate Skeleton, streaking 6 times to get away, and shield spam with infinite resource sustain make potatoes as survivable in pvp right now as anyone else, but as sorcs they also get a handful of undodgeable or unblockable attacks to shoot at people from their zergs.

    When talking about shooting out of a zerg he´d be more efficient on a bowblade or templar any day of the week.

    You´re mixing scenarios up again. Show me the potatoe that can actually stand their ground as a sorc and kill stuff.

    I´m not even arguing that pirate doubleshieldstack is overperforming. BUT i also think if the option to stack harness/dampen + hardened with pirate in the mix aswell gets neutered as it should be - average sorc players are going to have a very hard time finding enjoyment in the class.

    You still think beam is more of a threat from zergs than curse + fury? Snipe is a close contender, but sorcs have frag to match it, those can both be dodged unlike curse and fury, and snipers get one shot if you catch them. I'd 100% rather be zerged by snipers and templars than sorcs. They're much easier to deal with.

    We're debating over zerg specs. :joy:

    I still think Pirate is the root of all evil, and Harness needs to be toned down. That said, if ZOS rated difficulty levels of the classes for new players, sorc still gets an [Easy] on all fronts. :wink: I've been running around on my sorc all week, and it's ridiculous how forgiving that class is (I don't use Pirate or Harness).
    Edited by NightbladeMechanics on May 1, 2017 8:31PM
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  • Father_X_Zombie
    Father_X_Zombie
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    MagSorc should be balanced around having among the highest burst damage, the best mobility through Streak which they could reduce the cost increase per cast, and then good sustainability through Dark Exchange, but to counter that MagSorc should be among the weakest classes for being able to take damage.

    MagSorc's being able to tank from huge shields better than a stamina player in heavy armor is what has caused the MagSorc imbalance to continue to spiral. Shields should put survivability in light armor around the same or slightly better than someone in medium armor without shields. They can reduce the shield size, they can make them critable, they can make it to where they can't stack, whatever. But you should not be able to wear light armor for max sustain and damage and be able to stand toe to toe with multiple players whaling on you like your in heavy armor.

    You should be careful, posts like this have a 50% proc chance to give cancer to caster.

    It is because of clueless people like you - this game is in such situation. Get a grip, seriously, try to tank as mag sorc atleast two people in PvP. Let your actions speak louder than words.


    I personally think that this nerf is acceptable. While maining a mag sorc in PvP I also agree with the general nerf shieldstack idea, it should be 1 ward/shield per bar, as I think this is the main problem, that you can cast healing ward and then protect it with hardened ward and harness magicka and re-apply them until you ar healed. People that slot heal from pets will still be able to shieldstack, but who cares, with two pets you are more annoying than dangerous.

    Remove pirate skeleton - this is the main reason people complain about sorc shields, because of major protection that works on shields. Shield stack was not a problem untill every sorc and their dog started to run pirate skeleton...

    Dark conversion/dark deal - should stun and damage on interrupt, otherwise it has ridiculous penalty... ZOS mentioned that they want people to feel awesome when casting dark conversion during a battle - well it doesn't feel that way, you can barely interrupt a stamsorc casting dark deal while you are using crushing shock non stop and still, stamsorc can move while using it and you are constantly interrupting it, but you can move and your eventually after streak/ball of lightning stamsorcs creates enough distance for succesful cast - that is just stupid.




    Just a couple of the many first results in a quick 1vx search for MagSorc vids. I tried to find the one I saw posted here on the forum the other day that had like 4 max CP guys and a guy using siege trying to kill the MagSorc that was just standing in place in the open shield spamming but I couldn't remember the name of it.

    And you're the one that sounds clueless when you turn around and list all the same nerfs the rest of us are suggesting because even you can see they're a problem. If you can't easily tank two average Cyrodiil players as a MagSorc in PvP your pretty bad. I spend most of my time playing against the top 1% in PvP and no other class is as hard to both kill and survive in a 1v1 or even when you outnumber them. As long as you have the minimum Stamina to keep breaking free a MagSorc can take every bit the damage of someone in heavy armor and can disengage from the fight whenever it's not going his way using Streak.

    That works both ways. You cant complain about Sorc when other class do the same or even better:

    Random Templar Video:
    .
    Random NB Video:
    .
    Random DK Video:


    Im sorry bro, i forgot that when Sorc do own, it's because the class is OP and when other classes own, it's because they're played by "skilled" players, lmao.

    You also forgot the stuff you just tried to show in those videos like the first with the Templar running blazing shield has been nerfed. I also never said that a skilled player can't own randoms on any class. What I said is that MagSorc is able to do it better and easier than any other current class which is why MagSorc is so prominent in Cyrodiil right now. Especially after the upcoming Morrowind nerfs that hit all the other classes much harder Sorc easily has the best sustain, best burst, and best survivability with shield stacking.

    Ever see a magplar with pirate skeleton, reactive and black rose? :p
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  • Malamar1229
    Malamar1229
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    #SorcLivesMatter
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  • Derra
    Derra
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    I still think Pirate is the root of all evil, and Harness needs to be toned down. That said, if ZOS rated difficulty levels of the classes for new players, sorc still gets an [Easy] on all fronts. :wink: I've been running around on my sorc all week, and it's ridiculous how forgiving that class is (I don't use Pirate or Harness).

    The main issue with this is other classes inability to compete open world.

    NB cloak never recovered from no longer purging effects and magblade has been meh ever since.
    Templar and DK both lost the tools to fight outnumbered as magica (blazing shields, wings, dynamic ult).
    Stam lost it´s mobility with bowspeed and dodgecost increase.

    If i had any way to reliably get away and kite enemies on my magblade or magplar i wouldn´t play sorc.
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