Shadzilla wrote: »

Currently in PVE trials right now, mag sorcs are literally the best possible dps option. They are pulling 55k+ on single target trials bosses, with insanely strong cleave/aoe damage. FROM RANGE... WITH SHIELDS. If you think a 10% nerf to a single ability will bring them down very much, you are incorrect. The best stam players in the world struggle to try and breach 50k single target, with horrible cleave and about 70% of the aoe that mag toons pull, IN MELEE WITHOUT SHIELDS. ZOS if you do not nerf sorcs more, along with magicka dps toons in general, stamina will continue to be non existent in competitive end game trials. A simple change in caltrops is not changing enough.

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

i really dont understand... in PVE sorc is on YOUR SIDE and u want it to make LESS DAMAGE!!!??? REALLY... u are defending from wrong side ..

if u come with pvp stuff i could consider... BUT now u are complaining about whic is ur teammate and make damage for u and u want it to make less damage...:D:D:D FUNNY...

either u cant play sorc and u dont want other people play well and u are jealous or u are molag bal:)...

Or the fact they are becoming the only acceptable dps into trials could have something to do with it?

That's pretty laughable to me.

Neighbor wrote: »

Dark Exchange, Curse, and Shields are what need to get nerfed. I really hope frags is not all they're doing..

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Sorcerers are the masters of the arcane. They draw power directly from Aetherius and have the strongest connection to it. In addition, they also can more easily call upon the forces of Oblivion to defeat their foes. They command the strongest element found in nature - lightning, energy completely unchained and unpredictable, yet a sorcerer is the calm eye of a great and powerful storm, able to channel that raw energy into attacks.

So, here's my question: Why would any other class be allowed to be stronger than a sorcerer?

Shadzilla wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Sorcerers are the masters of the arcane. They draw power directly from Aetherius and have the strongest connection to it. In addition, they also can more easily call upon the forces of Oblivion to defeat their foes. They command the strongest element found in nature - lightning, energy completely unchained and unpredictable, yet a sorcerer is the calm eye of a great and powerful storm, able to channel that raw energy into attacks.

So, here's my question: Why would any other class be allowed to be stronger than a sorcerer?

Because this is a mmo.
And all the other classes are as powerful as sorcs if you just exaggerate their description.
Templars can cure anything in 1 second and heal one who is almost dead to perfect vitality again.
Dks are literally dragons in an human body who control the earth, create fire that comes straight out of oblivion.
Nbs can be invisible for anyone, can make anyone run in fear if they like. Or they just siphon the whole power the enemy has. And if someone really pisses them off they just assault them and vanish into the dark

I have to object, nightblades are horrible. Cloak is broken on so many levels and has never been fixed. After roughly 845 cloak fixes, you can still get pulled out of it by a vast range of things. On top of the fact that they really have never had any place in competitive PVE.

Shadow Cloak: Fixed an issue where the invisibility from this ability and its morphs was being broken by numerous abilities including Reflective Light, Silver Shards, and Burning Talon’s damage over time effect. Gonna go ahead and call bullsheeet right now on this attempt #846.

Artis wrote: »

You have no idea what you are talking about, I'm afraid. There are tons of players who have NBs with maelstrom weapon and VO+TFS. If I'm not mistaken, OP is one of them. And I know quite a few more.

Artis wrote: »

They still don't bring their stamblades to trials, they bring their magicka sorcs and DKs, because why wouldn't they? Omg, do you think those sorcs or dks don't require specific gear including sharpened vma weapons and divines sets that need to be farmed?

Artis wrote: »

And DKs are melee as well. Same thing. So what was your point?

Artis wrote: »

It's not about what playerbase decides. It doesn't decide anything, in fact. It sees if some builds perform much much better than other builds and uses those builds.

Artis wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

As someone who--in a very real way--hates sorcs, I just need to say:

1. Shields are not the issue in PvE balance. People absolutely use them in competitive trials, and they do have some utility, but they aren't going to save most high dps builds from a sword-throw or a swat from the Warrior, to say nothing of what the other trial bosses can do. You just can't rely on them for primary defense as you can in PvP. We may benefit from avoiding turning PvE balance threads into nerf shields threads.
2. If you offer "buff all classes" as a counter to proposed nerfs, please acknowledge that you accept the implications of giving stamblades more damage. If you complained about getting ganked, but want stamblades to have more DoTs, please don't go complaining once you get burned down by buffed up stamina dots. All that "buff everything" talks seems to fall away once people start dying to something they're not used to dying to.
3. Although it is possible for all classes to reach 50k dps, the difficulty of getting each to do so is so vast as to be unbalanced. It takes fantastically more farming, grinding, skill, and risk to get a stamblade up to 50k DPS--or even 40k DPS--than it does a magsorc. If you accept this unbalance as an effective divergence in what content the various classes should excel, then you will have to accept competitive content in which sorcs are as unfavored as stamblades are in competitive end-game PvE. Accordingly, vMA would need to be made much harder for sorcs than it is currently. We're not talking about which classes are favored in the vMA leaderboards mind you, we're talking about making magsorcs as undesirable for swaths of content as stamblades currently are for vet trials. EDIT: The iniquity we're discussing here is being locked out of end-game content solely by the class you chose.
4. If you don't find #2 and #3 above acceptable, then I don't see how you can credibly argue against a damage nerf to sorc DoTs.
5. If sorc dps is lessened, PvE enemy health pools need to be reduced. Power creep applies to players and monsters alike.

PS: The crystal frag thing is totally just throwing a bone to PvP. Everyone hates frag spam when it's on their death recap, but very few hate it when it executes a boss or add.

And here you pretty much prove my suspicions. You indeed don't know what you are talking about.

1. Yes, they save DPS from many things. Yes you can and should rely on them for primary defense. Yes, they are things shields won't save you from - it's ok, those things are designed to be avoided. Yet, there's no contradiction and shields save you from many things and let you DPS, while medium armor resistance doesn't provide as much defense.
2. There are ways around it. he was talking about pve, not pvp. No reason to bring it up. But if you absolutely have to - go see those multiple videos where sorcs kill within 1-2 GCDs.
3. Again - farming, grinding etc. IS NOT RELEVANT and doesn't matter. That's all negligible and we're talking about end-game which implies that everything is farmed and grinded. You don't and can't balance the game around any possible combination nor should you. However, the endgame is imbalance and leaderboards are a clear proof. What? why is it important that vma is easy for sorcs? Anyone can farm it with a sorc to get daggers for his NB, then.
4. No, because both 2 and 3 make no sense in the context of this thread.
5. No, because reducing sorc's dps would only bring them in line with other classes + players already outdps most mechanics

Artis wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Getting those sharpened weapons are still extremely difficult, and SORCS don't have to farm those weapons to get to over 40k DPS. Not at all. There's aren't tons of players with those sharpened weapons, and there are significantly more who have been trying for ages to get those weapons.

Irrelevant. Many people already HAVE those and any other weapons.Yes, there are tons of such players. In fact, I haven't seen a dps without them in my raids. Understand where OP and those who support him come from - they aren't from your mediocre guilds still progressing in vmol and almost getting the twins done.

Case in point. Some classes WITH those weapons can't outdps a sorc. Moreover, some classes - like mNB- with those weapons can't outdps a sorc without them.

waitwhat wrote: »

1. You're clearly the one who doesn't get the point. Not bringing stamblades into trials is exactly the problem I was discussing. "Why wouldn't they" is exactly the issue we're discussing with sorcs vis-a-vis stamblades.
2. Sorcs do not require sharpened vMA weapons to pull over 40k dps. This just isn't true.

1. Sigh you are clueless. That's what you said:

On a stamblade, it seems to require sharpened maelstrom daggers, a sharpened/precise maelstrom bow, and 5pcs. divines Vicious Ophidian and Twice-Fanged Serpent, in addition to the risks of a primarily melee rotation with low defenses. That's so much a taller order than what is currently required for sorcs, that the playerbase has concluded stamblades aren't worth brinding into competitive PvE content.

As if the reason people don't bring sNB is that they require a lot of gear to grind. That is absolutely irrelevant. There are players who have all the gear you can think off already, who perfected their rotation and are ok playing melee - they still don't bring their stamblades. Another counter example - there are magicka DKs who are ALSO playing MELEE and people would rather take them. So the point is - gear is not an issue (a lot of NBs have it), playing melee is not an issue(a lot of players do bring their magicka DKs or play in melee spots either because there aren't range spots for everyone + some sets only work in melee and the dps is higher that way). Conclusion- all your points were irrelevant.
2. Ok but that's not a real problem. Top players will have those weapons and pull even higher.

waitwhat wrote: »

1. It's not the same thing. DKs have way more effective damage mitigation and defensive abilities. And no, I really don't think people bring in a STAMDK into a trial as a DPS. Seems to be more a MAGDK thing, with STAMDKS doing the tanking.
2. My point, which still stands, is that nightblades carry significantly more inherent risk as DPS characters, unfairly disproportionate to the benefits they provide their groups as DPS characters. That point was pretty clear.
3.

1. yeah, it is. Being melee is not an issue. And yeah, the difference is the shields that magicka has which increases survivability. That's why people don't bring stamina. Not because "aww you need to grind vma weapons and TFS and VO". That whole paragraph was just to show that you analysis is flawed.
2. THAT point stands, but not a single other point. In fact, I'm wondering how would stamina builds perform if theydidn't go full dps and would use healing morph of flurry and dw dot. Their DPS could still be up there and they wouldnt' be as squishy. Since if they go pure DPS - their single target is much higher. Their problem is aoe and being squishy.

waitwhat wrote: »

1. You don't actually seem to disagree with me about shields. I explicitly stated that "Shields are not the issue in PvE balance. People absolutely use them in competitive trials" and you agree that "there are things shields won't save you from" so I have idea how you're countering the point I was making, unless you're claiming that because shields provide more defense than medium armor shields should be nerfed, which is definitely not what I was saying.
2. I'm not responding to OP with this point about buffs, but rather to the many, many people in this thread, and others, who offer the buff all classes argument as a counter to proposed nerf for they're classes. "No reason to bring it up." Absolutely a reason to bring it up: People keep hypocritically calling for buffs to all classes and then later complaining about those buffs being OP. Witness the current pearl-clutching over caltrops.
3. "Go see those multiple videos where sorcs kill within 1-2 GCDs." So are you offering sorc prowess as a defense against nerfing sorcs?
4. Yes, 2 and 3 absolutely make sense in the context of this thread. They pertain to nerfing--and not nerfing--sorcs, which this thread is about. Those points should be brought to mind in any discussion where we're talking about nerfing sorcs, or any class for that matter.
5. YES, BECAUSE MATH. If you reduce sorc dps without raising the DPS of other classes then the result is a significant net loss of DPS for trials groups. To compensate, keeping scores and completion rates more equivalent through time, enemy health needs to be reduced because enemy health is the non-skill-based trial mechanic that most directly correlates to and counters group DPS ability. This point here isn't even saying that sorc DPS needs to be reduced. It just says that if you reduce sorc dps, enemy health needs to go down absent buffs to other classes. I get the sense you're just disagreeing to be contrarian or over-defensive.

PLEASE, read and think carefully about what you're going to say next, because you and I didn't actually disagree much the first time.

1. Yes I disagree with you. They are absolutely the issue. Of course they are used and no don't save you from everything BUT they save you from a LOT of things that stamina has no way to match that defense. One of the ways to fix them is yes to nerf them.
2. All that I said stands. but yeah, caltrops buff is funny. I can't wait to see how it will be used in cyrodiil now that it's damage is 75% higher and every alliance member can drop them in the same area and enemies will take damage from all of them + be snared.
3. wasn't about sorcs. 3 is about you being wrong once again, saying some irrelevant stuff about farming and grinding to get to higher dps. That's irrelevant. Players WILL get all they need at some point. Some already have it. But they still suck compared to sorcs.
4. It doesn't makes sense because it refers to 2 and 3 that make no sense. Without that reference - yeah, it makes sense. But it can't be based on 2 and especially 3. Refering to them was really confusing and made me skip over the middle of that sentence right to the numbers.
5. NO BECAUSE MATH. It's not a bad thing if trial groups have less DPS, the ceiling is way to high - so high that in most fights mechanics are simply ignored. Besides the CP cap will be raised + all the new gear and stuff. In fact, enemy HP has to be raised in every update to fight the power creep without nerfing all players.

Ok, I will try next time. Can always be more careful. I see your point.

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

a1i3nz wrote: »

Damn OP you should have realized eso players tend not to read

I know how to read. Now can we have a class spammable. Frags will do if they remove the cast time.