blep - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/332594/core-mechanics-balance-discussion-stamina-vs-magicka-design-philosophies#latest

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

They really need to start including more anti range mechanics as well as increasing the damage of Melee ranged abilities. That's a good start for balancing Melee vs ranged builds.

WoW did it perfectly. Melee builds ALWAYS have the highest potential dps simply because they have the least uptime and more risk.

Great post. Melee characters should be doing vastly more dps than ranged. Completely opposite at this point in time

Jacozilla wrote: »

@OP - nice graphic, but handy dodging the issue - not so much.

You lied. Got caught and called out for it. Deal with it.

The TL-DR still boils down to you referenced 50k+ solo target solo trial parses as why ALL sorcs need to be nerfed, yet continue to avoid the issue that only an elite upper end are achieving that level of play.

Which is great for them, shows they are great players with both gear + skill, yet do not represent the vast majority of sorcs. Per your argument, all sorcs need to be nerfed because of the outstanding play of the upper tier. Which could then be applied to X class does not need a buff, because the cream of the crop of that class can do amazing things.

It is ok @Jacozilla , you are a bit confused and I am here to help. Please go to the start of the thread, read the post again, observe all the agrees. This thread focuses on the best possible dps players can achieve, in competitive trials groups. The fact that there is no diversity due to overpowerness of a mag sorc. If your argument is towards the medium skilled players, that is fine. Not what this thread focuses on, but I can address it. Most casual players do not even know what dps they are pulling, they do not study combat metrics and analyze parses/rotations. Therefore bringing down their damage by a small margin to come in line with other classes would not be very much of an issue. If you are a casual player, the damage you are doing on a mag sorc will be much higher than other classes.

It is not difficult to understand, there is a massive inbalance, that should be fixed. At all levels mag sorcs vastly outperform everyone else, they should come down in damage. 90% of the responses agree with that, and hopefully tomorrow we will see some changes on the pts regarding that issue. Trying to say that casual players that do not even know what dps they are pulling should not be nerfed is not a relevant argument... You sir should stop lying to yourself, accept the facts. Take a breath, relax for a bit. It will be ok, just try not to point out irrelevant arguments in my thread along with false accusations, please and thank you. Smiley face while laughing.

waitwhat wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

The problem with Sorcs is that a pet adds 10k DPS (in parses where people are pulling 45k+). Without this free 10k dps, Sorcs would be on par with all the other classes.

But no. People complained and complained about how pets were useless. So they were buffed to an extreme. And now ZOS is nerfing something completely unrelated... nice.

Just pointing out that the damage aint free. It takes 3 slots on your skill bar and 2 casts in your rotatoin, both of which cost magic.

Sorcs are admittedly overtuned at the moment. Their cleave damage is out of line, admittedly, mostly because of the pet, and you are right that nerfing frags will do very little to bring any balance back. If anything, it will simply reinforce the new heavy attack meta coming soon with morrowind. Frags is the most skillful and dynamic aspect of the sorc rotation in PVE, and decent chance it wont make our bars next patch.

That being said, every class can pull 50k single target. I think you should have to post a video of yourself pulling 50k plus on a class before you call it OP and ask for a nerf. 99.9999% of people aint pulling 50k+ single target on any class. We have one guy post a 70K AOE parse on one fight one time, and the internet loses their minds.

Yeah but it's not just about every class being able to pull 50k single target. It's about what it takes to get there.

On a stamblade, it seems to require sharpened maelstrom daggers, a sharpened/precise maelstrom bow, and 5pcs. divines Vicious Ophidian and Twice-Fanged Serpent, in addition to the risks of a primarily melee rotation with low defenses. That's so much a taller order than what is currently required for sorcs, that the playerbase has concluded stamblades aren't worth brinding into competitive PvE content.

We can't really fix the playerbase without triggering some massive exodus followed by a large influx of brand-spanking new players with other paradigms for what constitutes worthwhile effort in this game. Hence, we have to fix the classes and, it should be said, the content as well.

You have no idea what you are talking about, I'm afraid. There are tons of players who have NBs with maelstrom weapon and VO+TFS. If I'm not mistaken, OP is one of them. And I know quite a few more. They still don't bring their stamblades to trials, they bring their magicka sorcs and DKs, because why wouldn't they? Omg, do you think those sorcs or dks don't require specific gear including sharpened vma weapons and divines sets that need to be farmed? And DKs are melee as well. Same thing. So what was your point?

It's not about what playerbase decides. It doesn't decide anything, in fact. It sees if some builds perform much much better than other builds and uses those builds.

waitwhat wrote: »

As someone who--in a very real way--hates sorcs, I just need to say:

1. Shields are not the issue in PvE balance. People absolutely use them in competitive trials, and they do have some utility, but they aren't going to save most high dps builds from a sword-throw or a swat from the Warrior, to say nothing of what the other trial bosses can do. You just can't rely on them for primary defense as you can in PvP. We may benefit from avoiding turning PvE balance threads into nerf shields threads.
2. If you offer "buff all classes" as a counter to proposed nerfs, please acknowledge that you accept the implications of giving stamblades more damage. If you complained about getting ganked, but want stamblades to have more DoTs, please don't go complaining once you get burned down by buffed up stamina dots. All that "buff everything" talks seems to fall away once people start dying to something they're not used to dying to.
3. Although it is possible for all classes to reach 50k dps, the difficulty of getting each to do so is so vast as to be unbalanced. It takes fantastically more farming, grinding, skill, and risk to get a stamblade up to 50k DPS--or even 40k DPS--than it does a magsorc. If you accept this unbalance as an effective divergence in what content the various classes should excel, then you will have to accept competitive content in which sorcs are as unfavored as stamblades are in competitive end-game PvE. Accordingly, vMA would need to be made much harder for sorcs than it is currently. We're not talking about which classes are favored in the vMA leaderboards mind you, we're talking about making magsorcs as undesirable for swaths of content as stamblades currently are for vet trials. EDIT: The iniquity we're discussing here is being locked out of end-game content solely by the class you chose.
4. If you don't find #2 and #3 above acceptable, then I don't see how you can credibly argue against a damage nerf to sorc DoTs.
5. If sorc dps is lessened, PvE enemy health pools need to be reduced. Power creep applies to players and monsters alike.

PS: The crystal frag thing is totally just throwing a bone to PvP. Everyone hates frag spam when it's on their death recap, but very few hate it when it executes a boss or add.

And here you pretty much prove my suspicions. You indeed don't know what you are talking about.

1. Yes, they save DPS from many things. Yes you can and should rely on them for primary defense. Yes, they are things shields won't save you from - it's ok, those things are designed to be avoided. Yet, there's no contradiction and shields save you from many things and let you DPS, while medium armor resistance doesn't provide as much defense.
2. There are ways around it. he was talking about pve, not pvp. No reason to bring it up. But if you absolutely have to - go see those multiple videos where sorcs kill within 1-2 GCDs.
3. Again - farming, grinding etc. IS NOT RELEVANT and doesn't matter. That's all negligible and we're talking about end-game which implies that everything is farmed and grinded. You don't and can't balance the game around any possible combination nor should you. However, the endgame is imbalance and leaderboards are a clear proof. What? why is it important that vma is easy for sorcs? Anyone can farm it with a sorc to get daggers for his NB, then.
4. No, because both 2 and 3 make no sense in the context of this thread.
5. No, because reducing sorc's dps would only bring them in line with other classes + players already outdps most mechanics.

P.S. true, it's a pvp nerf.

ofSunhold wrote: »

Wow. I invite you to PUG a dungeon and tell that struggling-not-to-die, struggling-to-shield, saved-by-raw-damage magsorc DD that it's just dandy if his damage drops "by a small margin." (As defined by you, of course.) No big, little nobody, suck it up. Because trials, man. TRIALS!

Wow you only care about yourself and about you being able to pull high numbers with your sorc.

Your struggling sorc OUTPERFORMS BY FAR any other class played by a player with the same skill. So don't try to guild trip anyone or make us feel bad about that sorc. Bad players should struggle - overcoming that struggle is how they become stronger. But look at how conveniently you are forgetting that that same player would struggle FAR FAR MORE if he tried to play another class.

So why again should he deal more damage than a player of the same skill (or even himself) on another class?