Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell
@FlyLionel
Not sure what game you're playing on console because they're definitely not amazing on console lol. Maybe PvE with the DoTs but the lack of an Class specific AoE is something that annoys me.
PvP wise as a person who has played solo PvP and almost a General by doing so (on my Stam DK) Stam DK is incredibly handicapped and you must rely on the Heavy armor Meta + Proc sets to really be decent, unfortunately I don't like following the meta and run non proc set builds with medium armor. There isn't a skill that is a real game changer or class definer in PvP since you're tied down to using all weapon skill line skills aside from an ultimate and maybe 2 to 3 skills that are mainly to CC, mitigate some damage, and provide increased healing, or if noxious breath works correctly once in a while debuff a target.
@Avran_Sylt
Can't agree with you there DK is a hard hitter by what standards? If you're talking about the whip well only one variant of DK can utilize that effectively and that's a Mag DK; furthermore the only reason why it's doing so good is because of the soft cc root spam that allows it to proc consistently which I feel needs to be addressed.
DKs get to utilize regen sets and be put behind everyone else? DKs need a reduction and that's something I believe most people believe. The costs are so high with little to no regen because we were stripped from our dynamic ulti regen which made us a threat depending on the amount of people engaged.
Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell
@LiquidPony
Ok that's looking at the DK from one side not necessarily the DK as a whole. As a Whole no this doesn't apply to Stam DK since molten armaments is something a Mag DK uses for major sorcery while a stam DK would use igneous weapons for major brutality unless they're trying to be redundant and use something that provides major brutality twice which takes up potion time or another slot.
Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell
@LiquidPony
So I take it you do not PvE on a Stam DK.
DW/Bow
Bar 1 - Rapid strikes, blood craze, venom claw, rearm trap, evil hunter (un-morphed) Ulti - Flawless DB or rend.
Bar 2: Hail, noxious breath, igneous weapons, poison injection, vigor (flex flames of oblivion) ulti Standard of might.
So I'm suppose to get rid of igneous weapons to gain major brutality off of a potion because I want to heavy attack in PvE? On PTS Heavy attacking in PvE is only necessary when your resources start to run dry which takes around 30-40 seconds based on my experience. I'm suppose to waste a potion that at-least to my knowledge cannot provide stamina + magicka + brutality (Magicka for getting some stamina back even though on PTS it's dismal AF).
Not sure what you're thinking but this is a HUGE problem to the already dying end game stamina DPS.
Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell
D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »For DK's all around, since our in battle regen was ruined, id love to see escape and mobility be introduced. If you're going to take one thing away, then add something back in return to compensate.
Sorcs can Streak away yet DRAGONknight can't have a similar ability whilst quickly fly-fleeing?
Are you a noob? Just save ulti for dragon leap each time and use that for mobility. Blood spawn for faster ulti gain? Yes, solution fixed.
Maybe you should stick to the NB threads and leave the DK discussion to the actual DKs.
I will stick to things I know best NB/DK. You shouldn't go for personal attacks especially if someone was joking and you don't know them. I main a stam DK tank for pve, and I've played pvp with both variations since orsinium, thanks though @Kilandros
Well, if you actually knew DK in PvP you'd know that we're not really joking about its current state.
@Kilandros I'm on console and current state they are amazing, you're talking about current state on PTS. I don't have access to that; and now you're talking to me about it for reasons unknown? Reasoning please? I will say this from what i've seen, the meta is shifting to drinks generally right? So less resources=less of a nerf to battle roar and such=for major mending you'd need to have CC control or dodge rolls igneous into vigor for more successful heals right? So basically all I can say is what has been said prior, compensation for all nerfs. Your stance is more sustain and improvements to dots? Okay makes sense.
D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »For DK's all around, since our in battle regen was ruined, id love to see escape and mobility be introduced. If you're going to take one thing away, then add something back in return to compensate.
Sorcs can Streak away yet DRAGONknight can't have a similar ability whilst quickly fly-fleeing?
Are you a noob? Just save ulti for dragon leap each time and use that for mobility. Blood spawn for faster ulti gain? Yes, solution fixed.
Maybe you should stick to the NB threads and leave the DK discussion to the actual DKs.
I will stick to things I know best NB/DK. You shouldn't go for personal attacks especially if someone was joking and you don't know them. I main a stam DK tank for pve, and I've played pvp with both variations since orsinium, thanks though @Kilandros
Well, if you actually knew DK in PvP you'd know that we're not really joking about its current state.
@Kilandros I'm on console and current state they are amazing, you're talking about current state on PTS. I don't have access to that; and now you're talking to me about it for reasons unknown? Reasoning please? I will say this from what i've seen, the meta is shifting to drinks generally right? So less resources=less of a nerf to battle roar and such=for major mending you'd need to have CC control or dodge rolls igneous into vigor for more successful heals right? So basically all I can say is what has been said prior, compensation for all nerfs. Your stance is more sustain and improvements to dots? Okay makes sense.
On PC I would not call them amazing....no the meta is far from drinks.... and on PTS they are destroyed...
D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »For DK's all around, since our in battle regen was ruined, id love to see escape and mobility be introduced. If you're going to take one thing away, then add something back in return to compensate.
Sorcs can Streak away yet DRAGONknight can't have a similar ability whilst quickly fly-fleeing?
Are you a noob? Just save ulti for dragon leap each time and use that for mobility. Blood spawn for faster ulti gain? Yes, solution fixed.
Maybe you should stick to the NB threads and leave the DK discussion to the actual DKs.
I will stick to things I know best NB/DK. You shouldn't go for personal attacks especially if someone was joking and you don't know them. I main a stam DK tank for pve, and I've played pvp with both variations since orsinium, thanks though @Kilandros
Well, if you actually knew DK in PvP you'd know that we're not really joking about its current state.
@Kilandros I'm on console and current state they are amazing, you're talking about current state on PTS. I don't have access to that; and now you're talking to me about it for reasons unknown? Reasoning please? I will say this from what i've seen, the meta is shifting to drinks generally right? So less resources=less of a nerf to battle roar and such=for major mending you'd need to have CC control or dodge rolls igneous into vigor for more successful heals right? So basically all I can say is what has been said prior, compensation for all nerfs. Your stance is more sustain and improvements to dots? Okay makes sense.
On PC I would not call them amazing....no the meta is far from drinks.... and on PTS they are destroyed...
Well rip stam DK until further notice, and no one is using drinks in pvp on pts? Yikes..
@LiquidPony
Actually most people run blood craze because rending slashes doesn't provide a disparity in DPS. Evil hunter provides weapon damage from the passive and also provides crit, not sure how that's a wasted slot but ok. Most Stam DPS do not run weapon power pots in end-game because they usually have a DK providing the buff for the group and they can put another fighters guild skill so they will have added weapon damage from its passive. Let's say there's no DK well that is different discussion because that would not be the class we're discussing here now would it. If there were multiple Stam DKs there next go to wouldn't be molten armaments but caltrops although it's pretty expensive on live.
Edit: they could also sub out a skill on the DW bar for deadly cloak like venom claw and just switch igneous weapons spot with venom claw.
D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »For DK's all around, since our in battle regen was ruined, id love to see escape and mobility be introduced. If you're going to take one thing away, then add something back in return to compensate.
Sorcs can Streak away yet DRAGONknight can't have a similar ability whilst quickly fly-fleeing?
Are you a noob? Just save ulti for dragon leap each time and use that for mobility. Blood spawn for faster ulti gain? Yes, solution fixed.
Maybe you should stick to the NB threads and leave the DK discussion to the actual DKs.
I will stick to things I know best NB/DK. You shouldn't go for personal attacks especially if someone was joking and you don't know them. I main a stam DK tank for pve, and I've played pvp with both variations since orsinium, thanks though @Kilandros
Well, if you actually knew DK in PvP you'd know that we're not really joking about its current state.
@Kilandros I'm on console and current state they are amazing, you're talking about current state on PTS. I don't have access to that; and now you're talking to me about it for reasons unknown? Reasoning please? I will say this from what i've seen, the meta is shifting to drinks generally right? So less resources=less of a nerf to battle roar and such=for major mending you'd need to have CC control or dodge rolls igneous into vigor for more successful heals right? So basically all I can say is what has been said prior, compensation for all nerfs. Your stance is more sustain and improvements to dots? Okay makes sense.
On PC I would not call them amazing....no the meta is far from drinks.... and on PTS they are destroyed...
Well rip stam DK until further notice, and no one is using drinks in pvp on pts? Yikes..
Only maybe the constitution with regen ... but you need the constitution in PVP spike DPS is increasing .... as long as you have a large bonus to health then yea... I was thinking of the old drinks....
Stam dk need more physical/poison/desease dmg, poison standart, volatole armor need change to physical dmg. Other ok.
@FlyLionel
Lol are you serious? Nah you're trolling, you've got to be. You did not just suggest an ultimate being the way to increase our mobility, nah of course you didn't; Clearly i'm seeing things.
In all seriousness, what kind of misguided information have you been hearing, in what way does an ultimate constitutes mobility increases.
One thing I should mention, I'm against any mobility increases for the DK as that is not what this class is about. Now given that ZOS removed important features that made this class what it was aka a Berserker class where the more targets, the bigger threat you become; I can see why something in exchange would be required but mobility is not the thing we need.
dontlift is my guildmate, of course i'm messing around, you want me to be real? Yes mobility is not something that's needed with DK. It's never been apart of them, compensation should be real if on PTS DK seriously got slapped on.
D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »Stam dk need more physical/poison/desease dmg, poison standart, volatole armor need change to physical dmg. Other ok.
Agreed Stam DK's lack damage in PVP. Especially since we don't have a clear class DPS only DOTS which are useless.@FlyLionel
Lol are you serious? Nah you're trolling, you've got to be. You did not just suggest an ultimate being the way to increase our mobility, nah of course you didn't; Clearly i'm seeing things.
In all seriousness, what kind of misguided information have you been hearing, in what way does an ultimate constitutes mobility increases.
One thing I should mention, I'm against any mobility increases for the DK as that is not what this class is about. Now given that ZOS removed important features that made this class what it was aka a Berserker class where the more targets, the bigger threat you become; I can see why something in exchange would be required but mobility is not the thing we need.
dontlift is my guildmate, of course i'm messing around, you want me to be real? Yes mobility is not something that's needed with DK. It's never been apart of them, compensation should be real if on PTS DK seriously got slapped on.
Aha Fly is just hating on us because whenever i see him he's on a sorc We can all agree DK's need the ability to stand and fight.
Although ZOS has been real clear that they want to blur the lines between classes since they're removing all class specific passives and skills that make each unique; so i could see a DK streak implemented and wouldn't be surprised one bit.
Class balance to ZOS is all classes being the exact same which isn't how balance is achieved, but thats clearly the avenue they're taking. Make the entire game boring and all classes use heavy attacks then all classes have to be close to one another right?
DK's need major mending, and need to be able to block while somehow sustaining resources THIS is how a DK is meant to be played. It got all messed up when we seen perma blocking on all classes thus we got hate for the one class that was "meant" to be played that way.
Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell
Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell
@Dorrino
Regarding the cost reductions, I thought this was kind of self-explanatory as DKs have the worst sustain due to how costly the skills are currently. If you add the current PTS changes which blanket increases the cost of skills then that would surely make sense as I thought it would.
Regarding Major Heroism - That is a fair way to take it. I've already tested this back in the PTS for Homestead which is where I gave a massive explanation as to why I believe it is needed. If I recall correctly it was along the lines of aiding resource regeneration and I based the analysis of My PvP Mag DK and PvP Stam DK around the argument. My Mag DK utilizes Akaviri dragon-guard and my stam just goes full power with not ultimate cost reductions.
The logic does not apply to another class so I cannot comprehend where that came from as this is regarding Battle roar which gives us resources upon ultimate usage.
I want to state something and don't take it the wrong way. I clearly stated in the first post that I did not provide numbers or statistics but based this off my experience of playing all types of roles as a DK so far. I have only played this class and nothing else; while playing this class I have fulfilled every role possible i.e. Damage, Healer, and Tank.
I also want to point one thing, the changes is not to bring it in line with another class but to make it more unique from other classes. Why would I want a DKs ultimate usage to be on equal standing with another class instead of being a class that gains ultimate faster (which was the original intention with stand your ground gameplay hence the passive called battle roar). The DK class has unique abilities but as I pointed out with the ultimate standard of might, major defile applied is only 30%, it used to be 50% back when the gameplay was a lot slower which made it more useful in PVP.
I will say if @ZOS_RichLambert or @ZOS_GinaBruno contacted me and asked for me to provide in depth analysis of my suggestions and provide statistics, etc; I will happily do so. As for now, I will not because I am not entirely sure that my feedback will or has ever been heard due to constant discussions in PTS threads regarding needed changes to the DK class.
So if you ( @Dorrino )want an in depth analysis then I will provide it as long as I know that it isn't going to be ignored or immediately shelved.
Way too many suggestions. The class is fine for the most part without any changes.
- Talons: utility skills always cost magicka and that should stay like this.
- Molten whip change would just nerf it in PvE and i'm pretty sure in PvP the other morph is used.
- All these cost reductions are not necessary.
- Cinder Storm: DK is already strong enough in terms of tanking, major evasion would be overkill.
- Standart: Strong enough as it is.
- Chains: Major expedition lets you stick to the target, resistance debuff would be only buffing the strongest tank class
The only things that need to be changed are Caulterize, Stone fist, reflective plate and molten weapons (revert the changes).
Way too many suggestions. The class is fine for the most part without any changes.
- Talons: utility skills always cost magicka and that should stay like this.
- Molten whip change would just nerf it in PvE and i'm pretty sure in PvP the other morph is used.
- All these cost reductions are not necessary.
- Cinder Storm: DK is already strong enough in terms of tanking, major evasion would be overkill.
- Standart: Strong enough as it is.
- Chains: Major expedition lets you stick to the target, resistance debuff would be only buffing the strongest tank class
The only things that need to be changed are Caulterize, Stone fist, reflective plate and molten weapons (revert the changes).
@Dorrino
Regarding the cost reductions, I thought this was kind of self-explanatory as DKs have the worst sustain due to how costly the skills are currently. If you add the current PTS changes which blanket increases the cost of skills then that would surely make sense as I thought it would.
I've heard about DK's high costs skills since i've started playing the game:) But on live both mag and stam DKs are perfectly capable to sustain their resources despite of it. I can only assume if the skills costs are indeed higher for DKs than for other classes then this costs are supposed to be balanced out by DK specific passives that restore resources.
On PTS we have everybody's sustain much lower than it is on live and i'm afraid we still need to test and justify that DK's skills cost is a cause of their abnormally low sustain compared to other classes (if DKs indeed have lower sustain that other classes which needs to be demonstrated as well).
But, as i said, everything above is just a part of constructive feedback. Even if find out that DKs sustain is noticeably lower than other classes' and the reason for that is DK's skills cost (and we're not there yet), we still need to justify costs reduction values of our choice. Otherwise, i'm afraid, our feedback becomes a matter of taste, something that some players 'feel like', which cannot serve as a guideline for game devs.Regarding Major Heroism - That is a fair way to take it. I've already tested this back in the PTS for Homestead which is where I gave a massive explanation as to why I believe it is needed. If I recall correctly it was along the lines of aiding resource regeneration and I based the analysis of My PvP Mag DK and PvP Stam DK around the argument. My Mag DK utilizes Akaviri dragon-guard and my stam just goes full power with not ultimate cost reductions.
The logic does not apply to another class so I cannot comprehend where that came from as this is regarding Battle roar which gives us resources upon ultimate usage.
Well, as i said, both in pvp and in pve on live DKs are quite fine on sustain. And increasing their ultimate returns will not just lead to better sustain, it will lead to higher damage and higher burst damage, that might have undesirable implications specifically for pvp.
I'm all for buffing classes to achieve balance, but buffing classes just because 'they will be stronger' will lead to a power creep, since then all other classes would want to get buffed because their skills don't feel as powerful as of that newly buffed class:)I want to state something and don't take it the wrong way. I clearly stated in the first post that I did not provide numbers or statistics but based this off my experience of playing all types of roles as a DK so far. I have only played this class and nothing else; while playing this class I have fulfilled every role possible i.e. Damage, Healer, and Tank.
Which, unfortunately makes this type of feedback less useful and less productive. I respect you for making a 'compendium' of DK changes and i think it's worth it to be more than 'what it feels like' for some players.I also want to point one thing, the changes is not to bring it in line with another class but to make it more unique from other classes. Why would I want a DKs ultimate usage to be on equal standing with another class instead of being a class that gains ultimate faster (which was the original intention with stand your ground gameplay hence the passive called battle roar). The DK class has unique abilities but as I pointed out with the ultimate standard of might, major defile applied is only 30%, it used to be 50% back when the gameplay was a lot slower which made it more useful in PVP.
Yet again, as i said above, if you try to make a class 'unique' more often than not you'll make it too strong (because not many people want their class to be uniquely weak:P). Then you'll either need to buff other classes to get on the level of your unique DK or nerf it back where it was (because people WILL complain).
First option leads to power creep, when you're going to need to 'buff' the content, since your unique classes will overpower it (and will lead to imbalances in pvp). Buffing the content will lead to a desire to buff the classes even more to handle the harder content, which will lead to the need to buff the content even more:).
Second option will just make your efforts futile.I will say if @ZOS_RichLambert or @ZOS_GinaBruno contacted me and asked for me to provide in depth analysis of my suggestions and provide statistics, etc; I will happily do so. As for now, I will not because I am not entirely sure that my feedback will or has ever been heard due to constant discussions in PTS threads regarding needed changes to the DK class.
I'm quite sure many people at ZOS read the forums. My advice to you was exactly to help you make THIS post valuable and noticeable.So if you ( @Dorrino )want an in depth analysis then I will provide it as long as I know that it isn't going to be ignored or immediately shelved.
I'd enjoy reading through a well-grounded justification for buffs/nerfs to DKs (or anything else), but i'm not your target audience:) ZOS is.
ps. Your suggestion about making standards apply 50% reduce to healing will lead to huge imbalances in pvp, since it will stack with both major and minor defile (like fasalas used to be). And, obviously, if we will start using 'ults have to provide uniquely strong effects' paradigm of the design, i assure you other classes will need to get a similar type of uniqueness, which might mitigate the buffs your propose and will lead to additional buffs to standards, which will lead to ... I hope you got the picture:)
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
LonePirate wrote: »Way too many suggestions. The class is fine for the most part without any changes.
- Talons: utility skills always cost magicka and that should stay like this.
- Molten whip change would just nerf it in PvE and i'm pretty sure in PvP the other morph is used.
- All these cost reductions are not necessary.
- Cinder Storm: DK is already strong enough in terms of tanking, major evasion would be overkill.
- Standart: Strong enough as it is.
- Chains: Major expedition lets you stick to the target, resistance debuff would be only buffing the strongest tank class
The only things that need to be changed are Caulterize, Stone fist, reflective plate and molten weapons (revert the changes).
Do you PVP much or at all? Magicka (and Stamina) DKs have no rank file class skills that deal any significant damage apart from the Standard and Leap ultimates and it's very easy to roll dodge away from them. DKs have great support and utility class skills in PVP but the damage skills are an undeniable weakness. Until ZOS addresses this problem, we need to be skeptical if not untrusting of any claims they make regarding class balance because it's nothing but a joke.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell
Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell