Maintenance for the week of June 17:
· [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – June 17, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) – 8:00AM EDT (12:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – June 17, 10:00AM EDT (14:00 UTC) – 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
· Xbox One: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – June 19, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) – 10:00AM EDT (14:00 UTC)
· PlayStation®4: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – June 19, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) – 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)

「Desired Changes for DKs in Morrowind」Compendium of my desired changes for Dragon Knights

  • MaxwellC
    MaxwellC
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    @FlyLionel
    Not sure what game you're playing on console because they're definitely not amazing on console lol. Maybe PvE with the DoTs but the lack of an Class specific AoE is something that annoys me.
    PvP wise as a person who has played solo PvP and almost a General by doing so (on my Stam DK) Stam DK is incredibly handicapped and you must rely on the Heavy armor Meta + Proc sets to really be decent, unfortunately I don't like following the meta and run non proc set builds with medium armor. There isn't a skill that is a real game changer or class definer in PvP since you're tied down to using all weapon skill line skills aside from an ultimate and maybe 2 to 3 skills that are mainly to CC, mitigate some damage, and provide increased healing, or if noxious breath works correctly once in a while debuff a target.
    不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
    XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
    XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
    XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
    PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」
    Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
    Coined by Maxwel
    l
  • FlyLionel
    FlyLionel
    ✭✭✭✭
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    @FlyLionel
    Not sure what game you're playing on console because they're definitely not amazing on console lol. Maybe PvE with the DoTs but the lack of an Class specific AoE is something that annoys me.
    PvP wise as a person who has played solo PvP and almost a General by doing so (on my Stam DK) Stam DK is incredibly handicapped and you must rely on the Heavy armor Meta + Proc sets to really be decent, unfortunately I don't like following the meta and run non proc set builds with medium armor. There isn't a skill that is a real game changer or class definer in PvP since you're tied down to using all weapon skill line skills aside from an ultimate and maybe 2 to 3 skills that are mainly to CC, mitigate some damage, and provide increased healing, or if noxious breath works correctly once in a while debuff a target.

    @MaxwellC Yeah i'm with you there, noxious actually hitting for once would be great. And on console for competitive pvp they are among the best man, major mending all the mitigation and tankiness+class dots and sustain? We shouldn't rail off into if stam dk is good or bad but yes in medium armour which is like a unicorn sighting stam dk unless they brought back the old patches where leap was the only physical ult they would be great. Sustain wise in medium next patch for stam dk if you're managing correctly with drinks and the right setup they will be good, same thing as usual; wrecking blow leap execute rip. This is only if sustain is good after all the battleroar/helpinghands passives and the lower max stam pool you have the better? This will be a buff if you focus on weapon damage and sustain? Alsd I don't like how magdk is getting cornered into elegant set for pve and even pvp if they go light, but I guess zos wants to go that route with the garbage sustain without destro.
    Edited by FlyLionel on May 1, 2017 4:55PM
    The Flyers
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    @Avran_Sylt
    Can't agree with you there DK is a hard hitter by what standards? If you're talking about the whip well only one variant of DK can utilize that effectively and that's a Mag DK; furthermore the only reason why it's doing so good is because of the soft cc root spam that allows it to proc consistently which I feel needs to be addressed.

    DKs get to utilize regen sets and be put behind everyone else? DKs need a reduction and that's something I believe most people believe. The costs are so high with little to no regen because we were stripped from our dynamic ulti regen which made us a threat depending on the amount of people engaged.

    Molten Armaments. That's why they're hard hitters. We're looking down the barrel of a patch that forces a heavy attack meta and DKs have a 40% boost to heavy attack damage.
  • MaxwellC
    MaxwellC
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    @LiquidPony
    Ok that's looking at the DK from one side not necessarily the DK as a whole. As a Whole no this doesn't apply to Stam DK since molten armaments is something a Mag DK uses for major sorcery while a stam DK would use igneous weapons for major brutality unless they're trying to be redundant and use something that provides major brutality twice which takes up potion time or another slot.
    不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
    XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
    XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
    XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
    PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」
    Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
    Coined by Maxwel
    l
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    @LiquidPony
    Ok that's looking at the DK from one side not necessarily the DK as a whole. As a Whole no this doesn't apply to Stam DK since molten armaments is something a Mag DK uses for major sorcery while a stam DK would use igneous weapons for major brutality unless they're trying to be redundant and use something that provides major brutality twice which takes up potion time or another slot.

    @MaxwellC

    Doesn't seem like much of an issue to me. In PvE, people will be running pots off cooldown. In PvP, use Rally or potions or even Shrouded Daggers. Not like Major Brutality is a hard buff to get.
  • MaxwellC
    MaxwellC
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    @LiquidPony
    So I take it you do not PvE on a Stam DK.
    DW/Bow
    Bar 1 - Rapid strikes, blood craze, venom claw, rearm trap, evil hunter (un-morphed) Ulti - Flawless DB or rend.
    Bar 2: Hail, noxious breath, igneous weapons, poison injection, vigor (flex flames of oblivion) ulti Standard of might.

    So I'm suppose to get rid of igneous weapons to gain major brutality off of a potion because I want to heavy attack in PvE? On PTS Heavy attacking in PvE is only necessary when your resources start to run dry which takes around 30-40 seconds based on my experience. I'm suppose to waste a potion that at-least to my knowledge cannot provide stamina + magicka + brutality (Magicka for getting some stamina back even though on PTS it's dismal AF).

    Not sure what you're thinking but this is a HUGE problem to the already dying end game stamina DPS.
    不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
    XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
    XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
    XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
    PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」
    Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
    Coined by Maxwel
    l
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    @LiquidPony
    So I take it you do not PvE on a Stam DK.
    DW/Bow
    Bar 1 - Rapid strikes, blood craze, venom claw, rearm trap, evil hunter (un-morphed) Ulti - Flawless DB or rend.
    Bar 2: Hail, noxious breath, igneous weapons, poison injection, vigor (flex flames of oblivion) ulti Standard of might.

    So I'm suppose to get rid of igneous weapons to gain major brutality off of a potion because I want to heavy attack in PvE? On PTS Heavy attacking in PvE is only necessary when your resources start to run dry which takes around 30-40 seconds based on my experience. I'm suppose to waste a potion that at-least to my knowledge cannot provide stamina + magicka + brutality (Magicka for getting some stamina back even though on PTS it's dismal AF).

    Not sure what you're thinking but this is a HUGE problem to the already dying end game stamina DPS.

    @MaxwellC Just because running Weapon Power pots off cooldown to get Major Brutality/Major Savagery doesn't work for your bar setup doesn't mean it doesn't work at all. Most stam DPS run Weapon Power pots off cooldown in the end-game because it's not worth wasting bar slots to get those buffs. Most people don't use Blood Craze in the end-game, either.

    You've got a wasted skill with Evil Hunter that you can use to move things around. Run Molten Armaments there and back-bar Caltrops.
  • MaxwellC
    MaxwellC
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    @LiquidPony
    Actually most people run blood craze because rending slashes doesn't provide a disparity in DPS. Evil hunter provides weapon damage from the passive and also provides crit, not sure how that's a wasted slot but ok. Most Stam DPS do not run weapon power pots in end-game because they usually have a DK providing the buff for the group and they can put another fighters guild skill so they will have added weapon damage from its passive. Let's say there's no DK well that is different discussion because that would not be the class we're discussing here now would it. If there were multiple Stam DKs there next go to wouldn't be molten armaments but caltrops although it's pretty expensive on live.

    Edit: they could also sub out a skill on the DW bar for deadly cloak like venom claw and just switch igneous weapons spot with venom claw.
    Edited by MaxwellC on May 1, 2017 6:23PM
    不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
    XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
    XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
    XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
    PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」
    Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
    Coined by Maxwel
    l
  • Durham
    Durham
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    FlyLionel wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    FlyLionel wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    FlyLionel wrote: »
    For DK's all around, since our in battle regen was ruined, id love to see escape and mobility be introduced. If you're going to take one thing away, then add something back in return to compensate.

    Sorcs can Streak away yet DRAGONknight can't have a similar ability whilst quickly fly-fleeing?

    Are you a noob? Just save ulti for dragon leap each time and use that for mobility. Blood spawn for faster ulti gain? Yes, solution fixed.

    Maybe you should stick to the NB threads and leave the DK discussion to the actual DKs.

    I will stick to things I know best NB/DK. You shouldn't go for personal attacks especially if someone was joking and you don't know them. I main a stam DK tank for pve, and I've played pvp with both variations since orsinium, thanks though @Kilandros

    Well, if you actually knew DK in PvP you'd know that we're not really joking about its current state.

    @Kilandros I'm on console and current state they are amazing, you're talking about current state on PTS. I don't have access to that; and now you're talking to me about it for reasons unknown? Reasoning please? I will say this from what i've seen, the meta is shifting to drinks generally right? So less resources=less of a nerf to battle roar and such=for major mending you'd need to have CC control or dodge rolls igneous into vigor for more successful heals right? So basically all I can say is what has been said prior, compensation for all nerfs. Your stance is more sustain and improvements to dots? Okay makes sense.

    On PC I would not call them amazing....no the meta is far from drinks.... and on PTS they are destroyed...
    PVP DEADWAIT
    PVE Eternal Destiny
  • FlyLionel
    FlyLionel
    ✭✭✭✭
    Durham wrote: »
    FlyLionel wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    FlyLionel wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    FlyLionel wrote: »
    For DK's all around, since our in battle regen was ruined, id love to see escape and mobility be introduced. If you're going to take one thing away, then add something back in return to compensate.

    Sorcs can Streak away yet DRAGONknight can't have a similar ability whilst quickly fly-fleeing?

    Are you a noob? Just save ulti for dragon leap each time and use that for mobility. Blood spawn for faster ulti gain? Yes, solution fixed.

    Maybe you should stick to the NB threads and leave the DK discussion to the actual DKs.

    I will stick to things I know best NB/DK. You shouldn't go for personal attacks especially if someone was joking and you don't know them. I main a stam DK tank for pve, and I've played pvp with both variations since orsinium, thanks though @Kilandros

    Well, if you actually knew DK in PvP you'd know that we're not really joking about its current state.

    @Kilandros I'm on console and current state they are amazing, you're talking about current state on PTS. I don't have access to that; and now you're talking to me about it for reasons unknown? Reasoning please? I will say this from what i've seen, the meta is shifting to drinks generally right? So less resources=less of a nerf to battle roar and such=for major mending you'd need to have CC control or dodge rolls igneous into vigor for more successful heals right? So basically all I can say is what has been said prior, compensation for all nerfs. Your stance is more sustain and improvements to dots? Okay makes sense.

    On PC I would not call them amazing....no the meta is far from drinks.... and on PTS they are destroyed...

    Well rip stam DK until further notice, and no one is using drinks in pvp on pts? Yikes..
    The Flyers
  • Durham
    Durham
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    FlyLionel wrote: »
    Durham wrote: »
    FlyLionel wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    FlyLionel wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    FlyLionel wrote: »
    For DK's all around, since our in battle regen was ruined, id love to see escape and mobility be introduced. If you're going to take one thing away, then add something back in return to compensate.

    Sorcs can Streak away yet DRAGONknight can't have a similar ability whilst quickly fly-fleeing?

    Are you a noob? Just save ulti for dragon leap each time and use that for mobility. Blood spawn for faster ulti gain? Yes, solution fixed.

    Maybe you should stick to the NB threads and leave the DK discussion to the actual DKs.

    I will stick to things I know best NB/DK. You shouldn't go for personal attacks especially if someone was joking and you don't know them. I main a stam DK tank for pve, and I've played pvp with both variations since orsinium, thanks though @Kilandros

    Well, if you actually knew DK in PvP you'd know that we're not really joking about its current state.

    @Kilandros I'm on console and current state they are amazing, you're talking about current state on PTS. I don't have access to that; and now you're talking to me about it for reasons unknown? Reasoning please? I will say this from what i've seen, the meta is shifting to drinks generally right? So less resources=less of a nerf to battle roar and such=for major mending you'd need to have CC control or dodge rolls igneous into vigor for more successful heals right? So basically all I can say is what has been said prior, compensation for all nerfs. Your stance is more sustain and improvements to dots? Okay makes sense.

    On PC I would not call them amazing....no the meta is far from drinks.... and on PTS they are destroyed...

    Well rip stam DK until further notice, and no one is using drinks in pvp on pts? Yikes..

    Only maybe the constitution with regen ... but you need the constitution in PVP spike DPS is increasing .... as long as you have a large bonus to health then yea... I was thinking of the old drinks....
    PVP DEADWAIT
    PVE Eternal Destiny
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    @LiquidPony
    Actually most people run blood craze because rending slashes doesn't provide a disparity in DPS. Evil hunter provides weapon damage from the passive and also provides crit, not sure how that's a wasted slot but ok. Most Stam DPS do not run weapon power pots in end-game because they usually have a DK providing the buff for the group and they can put another fighters guild skill so they will have added weapon damage from its passive. Let's say there's no DK well that is different discussion because that would not be the class we're discussing here now would it. If there were multiple Stam DKs there next go to wouldn't be molten armaments but caltrops although it's pretty expensive on live.

    Edit: they could also sub out a skill on the DW bar for deadly cloak like venom claw and just switch igneous weapons spot with venom claw.

    @MaxwellC I have never seen an end-game build that used Blood Craze over Rending Slashes and across all the Trials groups I run with I don't know of anyone who uses that morph. A DPS loss is a DPS loss, no matter how you skin it. The initial hit from Rending Slashes hits harder than Blood Craze.

    Asmael with Rending Slashes on a stamDK:

    Jeckll with Rending Slashes on a stamblade: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/stamina-nightblade-pve-dps-for-homestead/

    Gilliam with Rending Slashes on a stamblade: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/243441/end-game-stamina-nightblade-build-pve-dps-homestead-ready/p1

    Every Hodor stam build on Alcast's site uses Rending Slashes: http://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-build-pve/

    Note that all of those builds call for using Weapon Power pots, as well. You can't rely on the group to buff you with Major Brutality/Major Savagery. What happens if your DK dies in a fight? What happens when the group splits up (which happens in all Trials)?

    The 3% weapon damage boost from slotting a FG skill is only worthwhile if you don't have a better skill to slot in its place. With a heavy attack meta and stacking caltrops, there are better skills to slot.

    If you really want to skip on the absolutely massive advantage DKs have in the upcoming patch with huge heavy attack hits via Molten Armaments so that you can get a buff that you can get with a potion, that's your choice. It's not optimal, though.
  • FlyLionel
    FlyLionel
    ✭✭✭✭
    Durham wrote: »
    FlyLionel wrote: »
    Durham wrote: »
    FlyLionel wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    FlyLionel wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    FlyLionel wrote: »
    For DK's all around, since our in battle regen was ruined, id love to see escape and mobility be introduced. If you're going to take one thing away, then add something back in return to compensate.

    Sorcs can Streak away yet DRAGONknight can't have a similar ability whilst quickly fly-fleeing?

    Are you a noob? Just save ulti for dragon leap each time and use that for mobility. Blood spawn for faster ulti gain? Yes, solution fixed.

    Maybe you should stick to the NB threads and leave the DK discussion to the actual DKs.

    I will stick to things I know best NB/DK. You shouldn't go for personal attacks especially if someone was joking and you don't know them. I main a stam DK tank for pve, and I've played pvp with both variations since orsinium, thanks though @Kilandros

    Well, if you actually knew DK in PvP you'd know that we're not really joking about its current state.

    @Kilandros I'm on console and current state they are amazing, you're talking about current state on PTS. I don't have access to that; and now you're talking to me about it for reasons unknown? Reasoning please? I will say this from what i've seen, the meta is shifting to drinks generally right? So less resources=less of a nerf to battle roar and such=for major mending you'd need to have CC control or dodge rolls igneous into vigor for more successful heals right? So basically all I can say is what has been said prior, compensation for all nerfs. Your stance is more sustain and improvements to dots? Okay makes sense.

    On PC I would not call them amazing....no the meta is far from drinks.... and on PTS they are destroyed...

    Well rip stam DK until further notice, and no one is using drinks in pvp on pts? Yikes..

    Only maybe the constitution with regen ... but you need the constitution in PVP spike DPS is increasing .... as long as you have a large bonus to health then yea... I was thinking of the old drinks....

    Nah; gonna need that health bonus with master at arms in cp I think that's what it was called, old drinks are retired !
    The Flyers
  • LonePirate
    LonePirate
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    While technically a drink, my Magicka DKs use the Witchmother's Potent Brew. The extra stamina from a purple food buff doesn't really help in PVP because if I need more than ~15K Stamina, I'm likely dead soon anyway or my wet noodle class skills (apart from Standard) become wet paper skills.

    The real problem DKs confront in PVP is the lack of damage from the Ardent Flame skills. I am regularly hit with frags for over 10K from long distances plus the knock down or 6-10K stamina weapon attacks while none of the five Ardent Flame skills hit for more than 3K, unless I decide to slot Searing Strike and somebody gets close enough for me to use it and then doesn't purge it.

    The five regular Ardent Flame skills are great in PVE but they are pure garbage in PVP. This PVP balance issue for DKs is what ZOS needs to address if DKs ever want to be something besides a Destro Ult running support class or a tank in Cyrodiil and battlegrounds. Despite being the in your face class, the five class damage skills for DKs flat out suck in PVP.
  • D0ntevenL1ft
    D0ntevenL1ft
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    LorDrek wrote: »
    Stam dk need more physical/poison/desease dmg, poison standart, volatole armor need change to physical dmg. Other ok.

    Agreed Stam DK's lack damage in PVP. Especially since we don't have a clear class DPS only DOTS which are useless.
    FlyLionel wrote: »
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    @FlyLionel
    Lol are you serious? Nah you're trolling, you've got to be. You did not just suggest an ultimate being the way to increase our mobility, nah of course you didn't; Clearly i'm seeing things.
    In all seriousness, what kind of misguided information have you been hearing, in what way does an ultimate constitutes mobility increases.

    One thing I should mention, I'm against any mobility increases for the DK as that is not what this class is about. Now given that ZOS removed important features that made this class what it was aka a Berserker class where the more targets, the bigger threat you become; I can see why something in exchange would be required but mobility is not the thing we need.

    dontlift is my guildmate, of course i'm messing around, you want me to be real? Yes mobility is not something that's needed with DK. It's never been apart of them, compensation should be real if on PTS DK seriously got slapped on.

    Aha Fly is just hating on us because whenever i see him he's on a sorc :) We can all agree DK's need the ability to stand and fight.

    Although ZOS has been real clear that they want to blur the lines between classes since they're removing all class specific passives and skills that make each unique; so i could see a DK streak implemented and wouldn't be surprised one bit.

    Class balance to ZOS is all classes being the exact same which isn't how balance is achieved, but thats clearly the avenue they're taking. Make the entire game boring and all classes use heavy attacks then all classes have to be close to one another right?

    DK's need major mending, and need to be able to block while somehow sustaining resources THIS is how a DK is meant to be played. It got all messed up when we seen perma blocking on all classes thus we got hate for the one class that was "meant" to be played that way.
    Edited by D0ntevenL1ft on May 1, 2017 7:34PM
  • FlyLionel
    FlyLionel
    ✭✭✭✭
    LorDrek wrote: »
    Stam dk need more physical/poison/desease dmg, poison standart, volatole armor need change to physical dmg. Other ok.

    Agreed Stam DK's lack damage in PVP. Especially since we don't have a clear class DPS only DOTS which are useless.
    FlyLionel wrote: »
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    @FlyLionel
    Lol are you serious? Nah you're trolling, you've got to be. You did not just suggest an ultimate being the way to increase our mobility, nah of course you didn't; Clearly i'm seeing things.
    In all seriousness, what kind of misguided information have you been hearing, in what way does an ultimate constitutes mobility increases.

    One thing I should mention, I'm against any mobility increases for the DK as that is not what this class is about. Now given that ZOS removed important features that made this class what it was aka a Berserker class where the more targets, the bigger threat you become; I can see why something in exchange would be required but mobility is not the thing we need.

    dontlift is my guildmate, of course i'm messing around, you want me to be real? Yes mobility is not something that's needed with DK. It's never been apart of them, compensation should be real if on PTS DK seriously got slapped on.

    Aha Fly is just hating on us because whenever i see him he's on a sorc :) We can all agree DK's need the ability to stand and fight.

    Although ZOS has been real clear that they want to blur the lines between classes since they're removing all class specific passives and skills that make each unique; so i could see a DK streak implemented and wouldn't be surprised one bit.

    Class balance to ZOS is all classes being the exact same which isn't how balance is achieved, but thats clearly the avenue they're taking. Make the entire game boring and all classes use heavy attacks then all classes have to be close to one another right?

    DK's need major mending, and need to be able to block while somehow sustaining resources THIS is how a DK is meant to be played. It got all messed up when we seen perma blocking on all classes thus we got hate for the one class that was "meant" to be played that way.

    Stam sorc***** come on dog..and DK streak will never happen, the day that happens Zos loses it all. I hear from a tanking perspective on pts if you spec right the difference isn't that bad; but adjustments are the king thing. They went across the board in terms of 'this will be a buff if' and generalizing almost everything to scale off of your level which screws over sustain, fix sustain=DK will be perfectly fine..engine guardian bone pirate op.
    The Flyers
  • MaxwellC
    MaxwellC
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    @LiquidPony
    I see your point on rending slashes but I still use blood craze more so due to vMA farming and would still not use rending slashes since I need more survivability.
    Probably should have clarified what I meant by used but that is fine as your point is valid.

    Regarding the buffs from a DK, I have only ran igneous weapons as many groups who I run with prefer having the DK do so or again when I am running vMA which allows me to use pots in case I make a mistake.

    You're correct about the split up part since all trials except for ophidia (since you split only once for a small mob kill) divide the group to a(n) significant point.

    When it comes to FG skills and passive I still cannot see what other skills you would want to use in place of a bar setup. As stated you could swamp out noxious breath for caltrops, you could switch deadly cloak but one other thing I prefer over weapon power pots is the consistent up time I have instead of having to use it consistently.

    EDIT: When it comes to that video I do see the difference in Heavy attacks provided by Molt Armaments so I'm definitely wrong in that aspect. Overall that way is rather complex and I would think it would be a tad bit difficult on fights that involved mobs as well as boss/mechanics to sustain. I admit I'm wrong but for the DK in the video if that skill slot was vigor that could easily be replaced with another FG skill for increases damage and a more sustained crit rating as sustained buffs are extremely important in terms of DPS.
    Edited by MaxwellC on May 1, 2017 9:10PM
    不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
    XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
    XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
    XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
    PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」
    Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
    Coined by Maxwel
    l
  • Dorrino
    Dorrino
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @MaxwellC

    If you want your suggestions to be constructive (as the title says) you need to come up with better justifications than just 'this needs to be unique' or ''this makes this skill better'.

    Any buff to any skill will makes it better by the definition. Constructive suggestion is supposed to validate the buff itself ('underperforming compared to X') and justify the proposed improvements with in-game statistics.

    For instance, why dragon blood cost in the suggestion should go down by 1000? Why not by 500? 650? Why not to increase its costs instead of decreasing it? There have to be compelling reasons for each proposed change for the feedback to even be considered by the dev team.

    Another example: 'I believe when you use an ultimate you should receive Major Heroism for 5 or 10 seconds (That's if Major heroism gives you 3 per second). I believe 15 or 30 ultimate after using one would aid in recovering resources which is where it all comes down to.' This will definitely help with 'recovering resources', but the same logic of 'making ultimates fire more often helps the class' can be applied to any class.

    Instead you might want to actually calculate the ultimate return with the account of different sets in the game and come up with something like 'This change will allow to reduce the effective cooldown for DK ultimates by X%, which is on par with, say sorc and templar ultimates and thus achieves balance'.

    Please don't take it as a personal critique, i believe this is a way to really make your suggestions constructive.

    Cheers.
    Edited by Dorrino on May 2, 2017 2:05AM
  • MaxwellC
    MaxwellC
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    @Dorrino
    Regarding the cost reductions, I thought this was kind of self-explanatory as DKs have the worst sustain due to how costly the skills are currently. If you add the current PTS changes which blanket increases the cost of skills then that would surely make sense as I thought it would.

    Regarding Major Heroism - That is a fair way to take it. I've already tested this back in the PTS for Homestead which is where I gave a massive explanation as to why I believe it is needed. If I recall correctly it was along the lines of aiding resource regeneration and I based the analysis of My PvP Mag DK and PvP Stam DK around the argument. My Mag DK utilizes Akaviri dragon-guard and my stam just goes full power with not ultimate cost reductions.
    The logic does not apply to another class so I cannot comprehend where that came from as this is regarding Battle roar which gives us resources upon ultimate usage.

    I want to state something and don't take it the wrong way. I clearly stated in the first post that I did not provide numbers or statistics but based this off my experience of playing all types of roles as a DK so far. I have only played this class and nothing else; while playing this class I have fulfilled every role possible i.e. Damage, Healer, and Tank.

    I also want to point one thing, the changes is not to bring it in line with another class but to make it more unique from other classes. Why would I want a DKs ultimate usage to be on equal standing with another class instead of being a class that gains ultimate faster (which was the original intention with stand your ground gameplay hence the passive called battle roar). The DK class has unique abilities but as I pointed out with the ultimate standard of might, major defile applied is only 30%, it used to be 50% back when the gameplay was a lot slower which made it more useful in PVP.

    I will say if @ZOS_RichLambert or @ZOS_GinaBruno contacted me and asked for me to provide in depth analysis of my suggestions and provide statistics, etc; I will happily do so. As for now, I will not because I am not entirely sure that my feedback will or has ever been heard due to constant discussions in PTS threads regarding needed changes to the DK class. So if you ( @Dorrino )want an in depth analysis then I will provide it as long as I know that it isn't going to be ignored or immediately shelved.
    Edited by MaxwellC on May 2, 2017 4:41AM
    不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
    XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
    XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
    XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
    PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」
    Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
    Coined by Maxwel
    l
  • Dorrino
    Dorrino
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    @Dorrino
    Regarding the cost reductions, I thought this was kind of self-explanatory as DKs have the worst sustain due to how costly the skills are currently. If you add the current PTS changes which blanket increases the cost of skills then that would surely make sense as I thought it would.

    I've heard about DK's high costs skills since i've started playing the game:) But on live both mag and stam DKs are perfectly capable to sustain their resources despite of it. I can only assume if the skills costs are indeed higher for DKs than for other classes then this costs are supposed to be balanced out by DK specific passives that restore resources.

    On PTS we have everybody's sustain much lower than it is on live and i'm afraid we still need to test and justify that DK's skills cost is a cause of their abnormally low sustain compared to other classes (if DKs indeed have lower sustain that other classes which needs to be demonstrated as well).

    But, as i said, everything above is just a part of constructive feedback. Even if find out that DKs sustain is noticeably lower than other classes' and the reason for that is DK's skills cost (and we're not there yet), we still need to justify costs reduction values of our choice. Otherwise, i'm afraid, our feedback becomes a matter of taste, something that some players 'feel like', which cannot serve as a guideline for game devs.
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    Regarding Major Heroism - That is a fair way to take it. I've already tested this back in the PTS for Homestead which is where I gave a massive explanation as to why I believe it is needed. If I recall correctly it was along the lines of aiding resource regeneration and I based the analysis of My PvP Mag DK and PvP Stam DK around the argument. My Mag DK utilizes Akaviri dragon-guard and my stam just goes full power with not ultimate cost reductions.
    The logic does not apply to another class so I cannot comprehend where that came from as this is regarding Battle roar which gives us resources upon ultimate usage.

    Well, as i said, both in pvp and in pve on live DKs are quite fine on sustain. And increasing their ultimate returns will not just lead to better sustain, it will lead to higher damage and higher burst damage, that might have undesirable implications specifically for pvp.

    I'm all for buffing classes to achieve balance, but buffing classes just because 'they will be stronger' will lead to a power creep, since then all other classes would want to get buffed because their skills don't feel as powerful as of that newly buffed class:)
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    I want to state something and don't take it the wrong way. I clearly stated in the first post that I did not provide numbers or statistics but based this off my experience of playing all types of roles as a DK so far. I have only played this class and nothing else; while playing this class I have fulfilled every role possible i.e. Damage, Healer, and Tank.

    Which, unfortunately makes this type of feedback less useful and less productive. I respect you for making a 'compendium' of DK changes and i think it's worth it to be more than 'what it feels like' for some players.
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    I also want to point one thing, the changes is not to bring it in line with another class but to make it more unique from other classes. Why would I want a DKs ultimate usage to be on equal standing with another class instead of being a class that gains ultimate faster (which was the original intention with stand your ground gameplay hence the passive called battle roar). The DK class has unique abilities but as I pointed out with the ultimate standard of might, major defile applied is only 30%, it used to be 50% back when the gameplay was a lot slower which made it more useful in PVP.

    Yet again, as i said above, if you try to make a class 'unique' more often than not you'll make it too strong (because not many people want their class to be uniquely weak:P). Then you'll either need to buff other classes to get on the level of your unique DK or nerf it back where it was (because people WILL complain).

    First option leads to power creep, when you're going to need to 'buff' the content, since your unique classes will overpower it (and will lead to imbalances in pvp). Buffing the content will lead to a desire to buff the classes even more to handle the harder content, which will lead to the need to buff the content even more:).

    Second option will just make your efforts futile.
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    I will say if @ZOS_RichLambert or @ZOS_GinaBruno contacted me and asked for me to provide in depth analysis of my suggestions and provide statistics, etc; I will happily do so. As for now, I will not because I am not entirely sure that my feedback will or has ever been heard due to constant discussions in PTS threads regarding needed changes to the DK class.

    I'm quite sure many people at ZOS read the forums. My advice to you was exactly to help you make THIS post valuable and noticeable.
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    So if you ( @Dorrino )want an in depth analysis then I will provide it as long as I know that it isn't going to be ignored or immediately shelved.

    I'd enjoy reading through a well-grounded justification for buffs/nerfs to DKs (or anything else), but i'm not your target audience:) ZOS is.

    ps. Your suggestion about making standards apply 50% reduce to healing will lead to huge imbalances in pvp, since it will stack with both major and minor defile (like fasalas used to be). And, obviously, if we will start using 'ults have to provide uniquely strong effects' paradigm of the design, i assure you other classes will need to get a similar type of uniqueness, which might mitigate the buffs your propose and will lead to additional buffs to standards, which will lead to ... I hope you got the picture:)
    Edited by Dorrino on May 2, 2017 5:26AM
  • Br1ckst0n
    Br1ckst0n
    ✭✭✭
    Way too many suggestions. The class is fine for the most part without any changes.
    • Talons: utility skills always cost magicka and that should stay like this.
    • Molten whip change would just nerf it in PvE and i'm pretty sure in PvP the other morph is used.
    • All these cost reductions are not necessary.
    • Cinder Storm: DK is already strong enough in terms of tanking, major evasion would be overkill.
    • Standart: Strong enough as it is.
    • Chains: Major expedition lets you stick to the target, resistance debuff would be only buffing the strongest tank class

    The only things that need to be changed are Caulterize, Stone fist, reflective plate and molten weapons (revert the changes).
    Edited by Br1ckst0n on May 2, 2017 12:25PM
    Offtank of the year 2016
  • Nelson_Rebel
    Nelson_Rebel
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Br1ckst0n wrote: »
    Way too many suggestions. The class is fine for the most part without any changes.
    • Talons: utility skills always cost magicka and that should stay like this.
    • Molten whip change would just nerf it in PvE and i'm pretty sure in PvP the other morph is used.
    • All these cost reductions are not necessary.
    • Cinder Storm: DK is already strong enough in terms of tanking, major evasion would be overkill.
    • Standart: Strong enough as it is.
    • Chains: Major expedition lets you stick to the target, resistance debuff would be only buffing the strongest tank class

    The only things that need to be changed are Caulterize, Stone fist, reflective plate and molten weapons (revert the changes).

    Major evasion already used on most tanks?

    So why is the warden getting it if it's overkill?..ohh yeah. B2W
  • Sugaroverdose
    Sugaroverdose
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't actually agree about "revert 5% for flame lash" with morrowind patch mDK get huge nerf to sustain, both direct(class passives) and indirect(constitution, la passives) and will struggle from it much more than any other class, cause BIS rase which makes mDK class hit hard enough to be in line with other classes doesn't give sustain, as well as nerfed passives which doesn't give cheap direct sustain. Don't forget about root immunity for roll-dodge which will be insanely cheap option for stamina classes and gives less chances to mDK to actually hit them hard, add shuffle as a cherry on top of cake and flame lash with live damage will not perform good in morrowind.

    Ultimate cost and skill cost higher than other classes, yes, but mDK not only needs magicka, stamina is also extremely important resource for mDK, with doubled block cost, it will be much better to give mDK one of two things :
    1. Increase resource-return rate per ultimate point
    2. Increase ultimate gain
    I prefer second one just because it seems like, that class was originally designed with huge ultimate gain.
    Edited by Sugaroverdose on May 2, 2017 1:13PM
    Tasty
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    The ideas presented here are great.

    That being said, the aim of the Morrowind update is to completely revamp the system to make resource management a very important aspect of combat.
    Therefore, it IS NECESSARY to tone down DK's passives since resource management from it's passives would create a disbalance in regards to other classes.

    As always, I don't expect ZOS to make a great balance, but it's just something we'll have to go along with until they polish it.

    We will have to adapt to resource management either way.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • LonePirate
    LonePirate
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Br1ckst0n wrote: »
    Way too many suggestions. The class is fine for the most part without any changes.
    • Talons: utility skills always cost magicka and that should stay like this.
    • Molten whip change would just nerf it in PvE and i'm pretty sure in PvP the other morph is used.
    • All these cost reductions are not necessary.
    • Cinder Storm: DK is already strong enough in terms of tanking, major evasion would be overkill.
    • Standart: Strong enough as it is.
    • Chains: Major expedition lets you stick to the target, resistance debuff would be only buffing the strongest tank class

    The only things that need to be changed are Caulterize, Stone fist, reflective plate and molten weapons (revert the changes).

    Do you PVP much or at all? Magicka (and Stamina) DKs have no rank file class skills that deal any significant damage apart from the Standard and Leap ultimates and it's very easy to roll dodge away from them. DKs have great support and utility class skills in PVP but the damage skills are an undeniable weakness. Until ZOS addresses this problem, we need to be skeptical if not untrusting of any claims they make regarding class balance because it's nothing but a joke.
  • Kilandros
    Kilandros
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Dorrino wrote: »
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    @Dorrino
    Regarding the cost reductions, I thought this was kind of self-explanatory as DKs have the worst sustain due to how costly the skills are currently. If you add the current PTS changes which blanket increases the cost of skills then that would surely make sense as I thought it would.

    I've heard about DK's high costs skills since i've started playing the game:) But on live both mag and stam DKs are perfectly capable to sustain their resources despite of it. I can only assume if the skills costs are indeed higher for DKs than for other classes then this costs are supposed to be balanced out by DK specific passives that restore resources.

    On PTS we have everybody's sustain much lower than it is on live and i'm afraid we still need to test and justify that DK's skills cost is a cause of their abnormally low sustain compared to other classes (if DKs indeed have lower sustain that other classes which needs to be demonstrated as well).

    But, as i said, everything above is just a part of constructive feedback. Even if find out that DKs sustain is noticeably lower than other classes' and the reason for that is DK's skills cost (and we're not there yet), we still need to justify costs reduction values of our choice. Otherwise, i'm afraid, our feedback becomes a matter of taste, something that some players 'feel like', which cannot serve as a guideline for game devs.
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    Regarding Major Heroism - That is a fair way to take it. I've already tested this back in the PTS for Homestead which is where I gave a massive explanation as to why I believe it is needed. If I recall correctly it was along the lines of aiding resource regeneration and I based the analysis of My PvP Mag DK and PvP Stam DK around the argument. My Mag DK utilizes Akaviri dragon-guard and my stam just goes full power with not ultimate cost reductions.
    The logic does not apply to another class so I cannot comprehend where that came from as this is regarding Battle roar which gives us resources upon ultimate usage.

    Well, as i said, both in pvp and in pve on live DKs are quite fine on sustain. And increasing their ultimate returns will not just lead to better sustain, it will lead to higher damage and higher burst damage, that might have undesirable implications specifically for pvp.

    I'm all for buffing classes to achieve balance, but buffing classes just because 'they will be stronger' will lead to a power creep, since then all other classes would want to get buffed because their skills don't feel as powerful as of that newly buffed class:)
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    I want to state something and don't take it the wrong way. I clearly stated in the first post that I did not provide numbers or statistics but based this off my experience of playing all types of roles as a DK so far. I have only played this class and nothing else; while playing this class I have fulfilled every role possible i.e. Damage, Healer, and Tank.

    Which, unfortunately makes this type of feedback less useful and less productive. I respect you for making a 'compendium' of DK changes and i think it's worth it to be more than 'what it feels like' for some players.
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    I also want to point one thing, the changes is not to bring it in line with another class but to make it more unique from other classes. Why would I want a DKs ultimate usage to be on equal standing with another class instead of being a class that gains ultimate faster (which was the original intention with stand your ground gameplay hence the passive called battle roar). The DK class has unique abilities but as I pointed out with the ultimate standard of might, major defile applied is only 30%, it used to be 50% back when the gameplay was a lot slower which made it more useful in PVP.

    Yet again, as i said above, if you try to make a class 'unique' more often than not you'll make it too strong (because not many people want their class to be uniquely weak:P). Then you'll either need to buff other classes to get on the level of your unique DK or nerf it back where it was (because people WILL complain).

    First option leads to power creep, when you're going to need to 'buff' the content, since your unique classes will overpower it (and will lead to imbalances in pvp). Buffing the content will lead to a desire to buff the classes even more to handle the harder content, which will lead to the need to buff the content even more:).

    Second option will just make your efforts futile.
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    I will say if @ZOS_RichLambert or @ZOS_GinaBruno contacted me and asked for me to provide in depth analysis of my suggestions and provide statistics, etc; I will happily do so. As for now, I will not because I am not entirely sure that my feedback will or has ever been heard due to constant discussions in PTS threads regarding needed changes to the DK class.

    I'm quite sure many people at ZOS read the forums. My advice to you was exactly to help you make THIS post valuable and noticeable.
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    So if you ( @Dorrino )want an in depth analysis then I will provide it as long as I know that it isn't going to be ignored or immediately shelved.

    I'd enjoy reading through a well-grounded justification for buffs/nerfs to DKs (or anything else), but i'm not your target audience:) ZOS is.

    ps. Your suggestion about making standards apply 50% reduce to healing will lead to huge imbalances in pvp, since it will stack with both major and minor defile (like fasalas used to be). And, obviously, if we will start using 'ults have to provide uniquely strong effects' paradigm of the design, i assure you other classes will need to get a similar type of uniqueness, which might mitigate the buffs your propose and will lead to additional buffs to standards, which will lead to ... I hope you got the picture:)

    This is mostly incorrect. mDKs are not even close to StamDKs in terms of sustain on Live. mDK has by far the worst sustain of any spec right now.
    Invictus
    Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
    Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
    Sias - Sorcerer / Prefect
    Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

    DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT
  • Kilandros
    Kilandros
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    LonePirate wrote: »
    Br1ckst0n wrote: »
    Way too many suggestions. The class is fine for the most part without any changes.
    • Talons: utility skills always cost magicka and that should stay like this.
    • Molten whip change would just nerf it in PvE and i'm pretty sure in PvP the other morph is used.
    • All these cost reductions are not necessary.
    • Cinder Storm: DK is already strong enough in terms of tanking, major evasion would be overkill.
    • Standart: Strong enough as it is.
    • Chains: Major expedition lets you stick to the target, resistance debuff would be only buffing the strongest tank class

    The only things that need to be changed are Caulterize, Stone fist, reflective plate and molten weapons (revert the changes).

    Do you PVP much or at all? Magicka (and Stamina) DKs have no rank file class skills that deal any significant damage apart from the Standard and Leap ultimates and it's very easy to roll dodge away from them. DKs have great support and utility class skills in PVP but the damage skills are an undeniable weakness. Until ZOS addresses this problem, we need to be skeptical if not untrusting of any claims they make regarding class balance because it's nothing but a joke.

    No way he's ever set foot in PvP with a DK.
    Invictus
    Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
    Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
    Sias - Sorcerer / Prefect
    Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

    DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT
  • MaxwellC
    MaxwellC
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    @Dorrino
    On live sustain is also a problem which is why many people asked for a blanket reduction in costs for DKs. You can sustain on live in some situations but not as well as any other class because of the higher costs in abilities. Stam DKs if we're talking about class only skills will only have to utilize 3 skills and of those 4 skills (fossilize, igneous shield, hardened armor. and maybe noxious breath) Igneous shield costs nearly 4.5k without reductions into magicka.

    Magicka DKs cannot sustain their rotation in PvE when it comes to utilizing their class specific skills which is why a blanket reduction is needed.

    Regarding this power creep you've stated. Stam DK is arguably the weakest class on live PvP wise. There is no burst, and can only use DoTs that do not have a lot of immediate damage or can be healed, shield stacked, and purged. You've stated that standard of might would cause a power creep well first off all in PvP standard of might isn't exactly useful unless you are protecting an area. Shifting standard could be moved but again the damage this ultimate does, is not something so spectacular that it could cause imbalance. It is not like you cannot get out of the standard as well, you can root but that can be broken and the player can apply a root as well then escape the area.

    Regarding battle roar, Again this Class was about standing your ground. We could only do that when we would take more damage from huge fights thus giving us more ultimate (Dynamic ultimate regeneration). Since we lost that ability which was the sole reason why battle roar was made, we lost a huge chunk of our sustain. The suggestion is to get close to those days again but not go back to it completely because the nerf as I stated in my first post is arguably justifiable.
    不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
    XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
    XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
    XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
    PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」
    Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
    Coined by Maxwel
    l
  • Durham
    Durham
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    -How about we get major mending till shield breaks then a 1 negitive effect purge at the point of the break.... idea..
    Defiles will be stronger next patch... 60 to 70% defiles will be in effect .... with weaker healing
    PVP DEADWAIT
    PVE Eternal Destiny
  • MaxwellC
    MaxwellC
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    @Sugaroverdose
    My main reason for reverting the flame lash was because of the lack of a fix regarding soft cc/hard cc spam. When I was actively playing this game (Since I'm taking a now 2 month break), I was able to sit there and soft cc/hard cc someone indefinitely. I doubt ZOS will fix this as I made a thread before regarding it in homestead PTS and was not met with any form of acknowledgement regarding this issue but other known PvE build creators weighed in with support for my suggestion.

    Regarding the ultimate, I know I would want to make it better but you know ZOS won't bring back dynamic ultimate days. So I thought well since we're built around ultimate usage for our sustain why not grant us major heroism each time we use an ultimate, which would effectively reduce the costs of ultimates by 30.
    不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
    XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
    XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
    XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
    PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」
    Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
    Coined by Maxwel
    l
Sign In or Register to comment.