bowmanz607 wrote: »

Your position rests upon the assumption that casuals don't know how to get better at a game and will.simply leave instead of getting better. I don't believe that is a correct assumptions for most casuals. Most casuals are willing to learn and get better and actually want to, they just need people to teach theme.

History has shown that you are incorrect - the silent majority will just leave the game if it suddenly gets too hard to play, they will not lrn2play & git gud and adapt.

A classic example of this is Guild Wars 2's Heart of Thorns expansion. GW2's base game was extremely easy and casual, you could get through all the maps and the main story with any build you wanted. Casual's loved it because it was easy... no thinking needed, just play what class, race & build you liked and had fun doing. People like you complained that the game was too easy and needed to be made harder, and that casual's would just 'lrn2ply' and deal with it. Anet listened and made HoT focused on group-play rather than solo, it was hugely more difficult than the base game.

Result: HUGE player loss and a HUGE 67% drop in revenue.

While ANet's income with GW2 had generally always been on a downwards trend (due to many, many factors.. some of which ZOS is itself repeating), it had never suffered such a huge loss in revenue before. The biggest drop prior had been around 30%. And yes, while HoT did see their revenue spike up from ppl buying the expansion in droves, and a drop was to be expected (generally speaking, a drop of 20-30% would have been expected, not 67%), the 67% revenue drop put it below where it would have been had they not released the game.

Shortly after HoT's release the official & unofficial forum's got filled with thread after thread, after thread, after thread of people complaining about how the game suddenly was way too hard, that they couldn't play solo anymore like they had throughout the base game, that they couldn't progress, etc. They didn't like that the game was suddenly forcing them to group up to do quest's, event's, get hero points (ie skill points), and get through map content to continue the expansions storyline.

And since the vast majority do not go to official forums, unofficial forums, reddit, etc... the forum user's were the tip of the iceburg of dislike for the difficulty. Some did state they knew many others in-game feeling the exact same way who wouldn't bother posting on the forums/reddit.

And within 2-3 weeks of launch, these same forums started filling up with threads about how the game was empty, how there weren't enough players to do events or get the group-only Hero Points completed. Why? Well, the mass zerg of the initial rush had already finished with the map's, the casual's had left the game because it had unexpectedly became too hard for them, and the game wasn't solo friendly anymore. So they struggled to finish map events, get hero point's, get through map completion to get to the next part of the expansions story.

Most of the forum-goes said 'pffft' to this, told them to use LFG to get groups, use map chat, suck it up & lrn2ply, etc. They didn't care, they had already finished the story with the zerg and were busy farming on just the last map of the expansion and/or doing the Raid. So they never got to see how empty and desolate the earlier maps were, and cause they had the same attitude as you... they didn't care.

ANet obviously did care as after a time of trying to deny it, they turned around and admitted that making the game so hard and casual unfriendly had been a big mistake, that they should not have listened to those crying out to make everything in the game hard and group focused. They nerfed a lot of the difficulty from HoT, although it's still harder than the base game... but a lot easier than it was originally, and also made many 'group only' encounters in the game solo friendly again (ie changed a mob from a group boss mob to a vet mob that could be beaten by 1 player). They also have promised to make things more casual friendly in their next expansion. Also to note is that their latest map expansions and releases have generally for the most part been more easy and casual focused than HoT originally was.

And this example is applicable since the base game of GW2 is just as easy as ESO is, and just as casual friendly. Both games you can get through the content and story playing just how you like and what class & race you like, with the weapons and skills you like.

So no, the casual silent majority will not suddenly 'lrn2ply' or 'git gud' or 'learn to get better' if they suddenly find that their character(s) can't get through content anymore. They will not go online to check forums, or look up build guides, or any of that. They will just leave if they find they cannot kill mobs anymore or complete quest's because suddenly they are dying all the time, they can't kill things because they run out of resources, etc.

The vast majority of ppl who play MMO's don't want to think, don't want to stress, don't want to challenge themselves. They get home from a hard day at work and just want to log into the game they like and have a relaxing 30-60 minutes of gameplay where they can finish a quest or two, do some other random stuff maybe, then log off and have dinner. If they log on and find they can't do that questing or other random stuff... they won't be inspired to 'git gud' or learn how things are... they will get frustrated, then angry, then quit the game, then uninstall it and go play something else that they can enjoy.. something where they can start it up and play it casually without having to think, or be stressed, etc.

psychotic13 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I'm okay with the change, and I've already got a way to work around having less sustain.

I strongly believe block cost CP should get a nerf to go with it, blowing my Magicka pool on someone blocking should drain both of our resources. Not just mine. Fair is fair, a one click "scotch tape the mouse button down" defense shouldn't be that much stronger.

I also hope that they just nerf the cost CP instead of eliminating it entirely. Say, 10-12% instead of 25%? Removing it is a little too drastic, but a nerf of some kind is definitely called for.

Look, I understand god-mode sustain is a problem in this game, and that battlegrounds just WONT work with some of the cancer builds out there. I think you need to take a hard look at some of the available sets first.

@Minalan , the longer you hold, the more expensive it (block cost) becomes and the lower your follow up regen becomes.

A block cooldown/penalty, if you will. There needs to be an opening somewhere in there.

They do it for roll dodge and skills like streak, why not for block?

There should be no such thing as a permablock build. There should be some kind of recover time requried.

Because tanks would be ***, how would you tank a trial

By blocking when appropriate. Tanking in this game can be fun but is otherwise a joke.

paulsimonps wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I'm okay with the change, and I've already got a way to work around having less sustain.

I strongly believe block cost CP should get a nerf to go with it, blowing my Magicka pool on someone blocking should drain both of our resources. Not just mine. Fair is fair, a one click "scotch tape the mouse button down" defense shouldn't be that much stronger.

I also hope that they just nerf the cost CP instead of eliminating it entirely. Say, 10-12% instead of 25%? Removing it is a little too drastic, but a nerf of some kind is definitely called for.

Look, I understand god-mode sustain is a problem in this game, and that battlegrounds just WONT work with some of the cancer builds out there. I think you need to take a hard look at some of the available sets first.

@Minalan , the longer you hold, the more expensive it (block cost) becomes and the lower your follow up regen becomes.

A block cooldown/penalty, if you will. There needs to be an opening somewhere in there.

They do it for roll dodge and skills like streak, why not for block?

There should be no such thing as a permablock build. There should be some kind of recover time requried.

Because tanks would be ***, how would you tank a trial

By blocking when appropriate. Tanking in this game can be fun but is otherwise a joke.

"Block when appropriate?" OK let me just go tank vAA HM Axes and Block "when appropriate", oh wait, that's always. having 5-7 Axes constantly Heavy attacking you and if you happen to miss blocking just a single on of them you are dead and you have just released all those axes onto the rest of the group. Reactive blocking isn't gonna be a thing in this game cause its not an action combat game. Damage is calculated BEFORE any animation hits, with the exception of the telegraphs. Its the same reason why so many people yell out in frustration "I was out of that" and yea you might have run/roll dodged before the animation but sadly that won't save you all of the time. Now I would love it if this was a bit more action combat like but that would require remaking the entire game from scratch, and so since that won't happen can we please stop trying to make tanks have to "Block when appropriate"

That was my first thought, they haven't done vAA

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Kamatsu wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Your position rests upon the assumption that casuals don't know how to get better at a game and will.simply leave instead of getting better. I don't believe that is a correct assumptions for most casuals. Most casuals are willing to learn and get better and actually want to, they just need people to teach theme.

History has shown that you are incorrect - the silent majority will just leave the game if it suddenly gets too hard to play, they will not lrn2play & git gud and adapt.

A classic example of this is Guild Wars 2's Heart of Thorns expansion. GW2's base game was extremely easy and casual, you could get through all the maps and the main story with any build you wanted. Casual's loved it because it was easy... no thinking needed, just play what class, race & build you liked and had fun doing. People like you complained that the game was too easy and needed to be made harder, and that casual's would just 'lrn2ply' and deal with it. Anet listened and made HoT focused on group-play rather than solo, it was hugely more difficult than the base game.

Result: HUGE player loss and a HUGE 67% drop in revenue.

While ANet's income with GW2 had generally always been on a downwards trend (due to many, many factors.. some of which ZOS is itself repeating), it had never suffered such a huge loss in revenue before. The biggest drop prior had been around 30%. And yes, while HoT did see their revenue spike up from ppl buying the expansion in droves, and a drop was to be expected (generally speaking, a drop of 20-30% would have been expected, not 67%), the 67% revenue drop put it below where it would have been had they not released the game.

Shortly after HoT's release the official & unofficial forum's got filled with thread after thread, after thread, after thread of people complaining about how the game suddenly was way too hard, that they couldn't play solo anymore like they had throughout the base game, that they couldn't progress, etc. They didn't like that the game was suddenly forcing them to group up to do quest's, event's, get hero points (ie skill points), and get through map content to continue the expansions storyline.

And since the vast majority do not go to official forums, unofficial forums, reddit, etc... the forum user's were the tip of the iceburg of dislike for the difficulty. Some did state they knew many others in-game feeling the exact same way who wouldn't bother posting on the forums/reddit.

And within 2-3 weeks of launch, these same forums started filling up with threads about how the game was empty, how there weren't enough players to do events or get the group-only Hero Points completed. Why? Well, the mass zerg of the initial rush had already finished with the map's, the casual's had left the game because it had unexpectedly became too hard for them, and the game wasn't solo friendly anymore. So they struggled to finish map events, get hero point's, get through map completion to get to the next part of the expansions story.

Most of the forum-goes said 'pffft' to this, told them to use LFG to get groups, use map chat, suck it up & lrn2ply, etc. They didn't care, they had already finished the story with the zerg and were busy farming on just the last map of the expansion and/or doing the Raid. So they never got to see how empty and desolate the earlier maps were, and cause they had the same attitude as you... they didn't care.

ANet obviously did care as after a time of trying to deny it, they turned around and admitted that making the game so hard and casual unfriendly had been a big mistake, that they should not have listened to those crying out to make everything in the game hard and group focused. They nerfed a lot of the difficulty from HoT, although it's still harder than the base game... but a lot easier than it was originally, and also made many 'group only' encounters in the game solo friendly again (ie changed a mob from a group boss mob to a vet mob that could be beaten by 1 player). They also have promised to make things more casual friendly in their next expansion. Also to note is that their latest map expansions and releases have generally for the most part been more easy and casual focused than HoT originally was.

And this example is applicable since the base game of GW2 is just as easy as ESO is, and just as casual friendly. Both games you can get through the content and story playing just how you like and what class & race you like, with the weapons and skills you like.

So no, the casual silent majority will not suddenly 'lrn2ply' or 'git gud' or 'learn to get better' if they suddenly find that their character(s) can't get through content anymore. They will not go online to check forums, or look up build guides, or any of that. They will just leave if they find they cannot kill mobs anymore or complete quest's because suddenly they are dying all the time, they can't kill things because they run out of resources, etc.

The vast majority of ppl who play MMO's don't want to think, don't want to stress, don't want to challenge themselves. They get home from a hard day at work and just want to log into the game they like and have a relaxing 30-60 minutes of gameplay where they can finish a quest or two, do some other random stuff maybe, then log off and have dinner. If they log on and find they can't do that questing or other random stuff... they won't be inspired to 'git gud' or learn how things are... they will get frustrated, then angry, then quit the game, then uninstall it and go play something else that they can enjoy.. something where they can start it up and play it casually without having to think, or be stressed, etc.

Very well said, and that's exactly the point I've been trying to get across.

@Uriel_Nocturne & @Kamatsu

I can't agree with you guys more on your points. imo, this is the exact behaviour of casual players in game - after a long day, they just want to log in have fun and relax, not to torment themselves more.

Let's not forget about players who actually treat this like Skyrim 2, playing as a Sorc while using bow. I think think they're going feel happy if the changes mess up their gaming experience.

paulsimonps wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I'm okay with the change, and I've already got a way to work around having less sustain.

I strongly believe block cost CP should get a nerf to go with it, blowing my Magicka pool on someone blocking should drain both of our resources. Not just mine. Fair is fair, a one click "scotch tape the mouse button down" defense shouldn't be that much stronger.

I also hope that they just nerf the cost CP instead of eliminating it entirely. Say, 10-12% instead of 25%? Removing it is a little too drastic, but a nerf of some kind is definitely called for.

Look, I understand god-mode sustain is a problem in this game, and that battlegrounds just WONT work with some of the cancer builds out there. I think you need to take a hard look at some of the available sets first.

@Minalan , the longer you hold, the more expensive it (block cost) becomes and the lower your follow up regen becomes.

A block cooldown/penalty, if you will. There needs to be an opening somewhere in there.

They do it for roll dodge and skills like streak, why not for block?

There should be no such thing as a permablock build. There should be some kind of recover time requried.

Because tanks would be ***, how would you tank a trial

By blocking when appropriate. Tanking in this game can be fun but is otherwise a joke.

"Block when appropriate?" OK let me just go tank vAA HM Axes and Block "when appropriate", oh wait, that's always. having 5-7 Axes constantly Heavy attacking you and if you happen to miss blocking just a single on of them you are dead and you have just released all those axes onto the rest of the group. Reactive blocking isn't gonna be a thing in this game cause its not an action combat game. Damage is calculated BEFORE any animation hits, with the exception of the telegraphs. Its the same reason why so many people yell out in frustration "I was out of that" and yea you might have run/roll dodged before the animation but sadly that won't save you all of the time. Now I would love it if this was a bit more action combat like but that would require remaking the entire game from scratch, and so since that won't happen can we please stop trying to make tanks have to "Block when appropriate"

Sounds like a perfect opportunity to have another tank.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I'm okay with the change, and I've already got a way to work around having less sustain.

I strongly believe block cost CP should get a nerf to go with it, blowing my Magicka pool on someone blocking should drain both of our resources. Not just mine. Fair is fair, a one click "scotch tape the mouse button down" defense shouldn't be that much stronger.

I also hope that they just nerf the cost CP instead of eliminating it entirely. Say, 10-12% instead of 25%? Removing it is a little too drastic, but a nerf of some kind is definitely called for.

Look, I understand god-mode sustain is a problem in this game, and that battlegrounds just WONT work with some of the cancer builds out there. I think you need to take a hard look at some of the available sets first.

@Minalan , the longer you hold, the more expensive it (block cost) becomes and the lower your follow up regen becomes.

A block cooldown/penalty, if you will. There needs to be an opening somewhere in there.

They do it for roll dodge and skills like streak, why not for block?

There should be no such thing as a permablock build. There should be some kind of recover time requried.

Because tanks would be ***, how would you tank a trial

By blocking when appropriate. Tanking in this game can be fun but is otherwise a joke.

"Block when appropriate?" OK let me just go tank vAA HM Axes and Block "when appropriate", oh wait, that's always. having 5-7 Axes constantly Heavy attacking you and if you happen to miss blocking just a single on of them you are dead and you have just released all those axes onto the rest of the group. Reactive blocking isn't gonna be a thing in this game cause its not an action combat game. Damage is calculated BEFORE any animation hits, with the exception of the telegraphs. Its the same reason why so many people yell out in frustration "I was out of that" and yea you might have run/roll dodged before the animation but sadly that won't save you all of the time. Now I would love it if this was a bit more action combat like but that would require remaking the entire game from scratch, and so since that won't happen can we please stop trying to make tanks have to "Block when appropriate"

Sounds like a perfect opportunity to have another tank.

There already is a second tank in VAA who takes the aggro of the boss off the dps and healers so the dps can deal with the mini mages when they come up.

The fact you do no know this, clearly shows you know nothing about the difficulty of end game content and what is required to beat it.

That role can literally be fulfilled by anyone or anything with a method of taunting.

Hardly qualifies as the role of tank, but I like how far you're willing to sink into the toilet bowl of BS to argue against it. Shows zeal!

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

@Uriel_Nocturne I do agree, that it is not good taking away power from players. Same issue happened when the CP system was introduced. people lost power (they just didnt realize yet they were gonna be stronger afterwards) and QQ was raining down in the forums.
I speak from experience, I was really good at QQing on the forums in my first year

1.ANY Player does not like to loose power. No matter what game they play.
2. Forum does not represent the playerbase at all. When do you go to forums? You go there when you have to complain about something. If you are happy why would you bother? (Sure there is a small percentage that actually wants to talk about mechanics etc).
3. The Players that aactually care about changes are a small minority, the game is full of casuals which most likely will not even feel the difference.

However, I do think IF CHANGES SHOULD HAPPEN, then now is the right time. BEFORE Morrowind releases. Because there will be a lot of new players. Morrowind will make or break this game. So I really hope ZOS fixes the biggest issues....

And again, I am all for nerfing this monkey Championpoint system. They are going into the right direction. Still needs more nerfing.

WHY for gods sake does extra CP give you more resources?! Remove that *** its way too OP. @ZOS_RichLambert

I am all for that people actually have to turn on the switch in their brains again and L2P once more in this game.

[Edit for profanity]

@Alcast A couple of things:

1) I fully read your post, and while I see where you are coming from, I completely disagree with you on how the CP system is "supposed to work".

2) For all of your thoughts, this change (removing the sustain node and cost reduction node) will actually hit lower CP players just as hard as it does the top 1% of players (end-game-level Players). The sustain and cost reduction nodes scale by percentiles (as I know you are aware), so any removal/change like this will hit even the Silent Casual just as hard as it does say... the Streamers and "Elites" who run nothing but end-game level content (Trials, VMA, VDSA).

3) These changes, if made without reducing the base cost of Magicka abilities by 15-16%, while reducing the resource regeneration, will destroy most every Magicka build in the game.

4) Because of #3, most of those Silent Casual players will suddenly have their (most likely) one and only character no longer viable. They're cost of abilities will go up significantly, especially when Spam Skills are taken into consideration. Their Magicka pools will run out faster, and will return to them slower. They're going to find themselves in content that they could make it through before the patch, but now cannot complete after the patch for the simple fact that they're running out of resources too fast and it takes longer for them to return.

These players aren't going to "L2P" or flip any switch in their brains. They don't cruise through Streams or Build Guides like you provide. Hell, they probably don't even know about 75% of the crafting stations and Sets in the game, and they definitely don't know about how the Monster Drop Sets work or would want to grind out the countless hours to get any of it like you or I would, even though those Sets may/may not mitigate the effects of the change.

If this change goes through, the vast majority of the player base will suddenly find that their one and only character simply cannot complete challenges one day, that they could the previous day.

But you are right about one thing: the Silent Casual won't care. They won't follow your suggestions, indeed they will most likely never visit your Streams for you to peddle an elitist viewpoint on how the game "should be played".

They'll see that their character no longer works. There won't be a readily-available, quick fix to restore their character's potency, and they'll simply quit and go play something else.

Because like most every other Streamer and Forum user, you're taking a position that the fixes to cope with this are "obvious", and for the level of content that you run, getting the correct set of gear that coordinates well with pieces from other Sets, are easy to regain/acquire.

But the level of content that you and I run every day, the level of content that you and I find to be easy, that content is (and will most likely always be) far out of reach of the vast majority of players. They simply will never have access to the fixes that you're suggesting and promoting.

And that's where your entire argument breaks down. Your suggestions are a fine workaround for the <5% that run end-game content, and for that top 5% of the playing populace, your suggestions might/might not work. But for the rest of the player base, the Silent Casual, this will be an insurmountable change. It will be insurmountable for them, the game will become magnitudes more difficult, and they'll leave.

Because while you or I have countless hours to grind away at this game, and some of the players have found a way to make this game (and other games) their careers; the vast, vast majority of players just use this game as an escape and come here to have fun. Not to have epic-frustration-levels of difficulty. The game will no longer make their characters effective to cruise through PvE content, and those players will leave.

So while your suggestions and those proto-change to the CP constellations might be workable for the 5% of players at end-game, it will only serve to drive away armies worth of Casual Players. It will not spark that desire for them to grind away and "L2P", it will spark a desire for them to go and play a game where their characters still feel remotely powerful.

And that will only be horrifically damaging to this MMO.

I read your whole post.

I'm sorry but if a player who jumps into a new game does not know how the game works or just refuses to learn the mechanics and the things they need to get better, then that is on them. The casual content is easy enough that even for casuals with ridiculous builds can spam snipe to get through haha.

Your position rests upon the assumption that casuals don't know how to get better at a game and will.simply leave instead of getting better. I don't believe that is a correct assumptions for most casuals. Most casuals are willing to learn and get better and actually want to, they just need people to teach theme.

This was my first mmo ever. I am a Tes fan and why I got into this. The first year of this game I didn't know about weaving/animation canceling. I mained bow in dungeons as a stam.nb. as you will recall a stam player and a nb for much of first year was trash. I didn't even know about food or drink. Yet I was still able.to do all most content in the game. Then one day a friend in gAmerica taught me all of these things. I learned at got way way better to where I am very very good now. I now pass that knowledge along to new players who soak it up like a sponge.

You make the point that casuals don't play the end get stuff that many of us here do. That they simply will not be good enough to access the content we run. So if this is the, then how will this effect them? The stuff they do play is very easy to where I have been with players in dungeons who spam snipe no problem and that is it through whole dungeon. So what this will do for casuals is make those really easy dungeons they do run a bit harder. Not enough to make them quit, enough to make them think more and ask questions because despite your position, people want to get better before they decide to quit.

Then there are casuals that just run overland content and quest. The easiest content in game. This change is not going to make people so bad at overland content that they quit. See my scenario above. You can walk through the overland content with any build and win.

A game is not about being able to just run through it without thinking about how gear, stats, skills, etc. What player gets into a game thinking we'll if I can't just walk through this content without learning how to play the game then I quit????? When did this mentality start??? You can't blame a game for being too hard if your unwilling to learn how to play the game. You have no right to complain about it. I mean just think about that for a second. Hey guys your game is too hard so I quit make it easier. What was too hard? Oh well I can't really tell you because I never learned how to play the game. ????? You want to balance around that type of player???? I don't think so.

@bowmanz607 And I read your whole post, and you missed the mark just by a bit.

You've oversimplified the argument, and become lost in the same mentality that @Alcast has.

It's not that the Silent Casual majority simply doesn't know how to get better at the game, it's that their version of "getting better" is very different from what you or I view as getting better.

As I said in my most recent post; they play the game, they try out different Skills, they try out different equipment from drops and what rafting stations that they find in the wilderness, and they find something that works to get them through the content and allows them to just play the game. Just being allowed to play the game, at a mildly challenging level of difficulty, but that they can move through with only a small bit of effort; that is what the Silent Casual is looking for. I'll say it again; video games in general, and MMORPG's as a whole genre are an escape for them. The Casual majority doesn't wan tsoul-crushing challenge like the end-game player wants.

You, I, and the Streamers (as well as the rest of the Hardcore players) view "getting better" as being able to run through the hardest content in the game. If our DPS/Sustain/Healing/tanking aren't putting out the numbers we need, we grind through to get the BiS gear, and we min/max until we have the toughest builds in the game. That is how we view "getting better".

It's not that the Silent Casual doesn't have a desire to get better, it's that what "getting better" means that is important.

Again, as I replied to for Alcast; removing the resource regen CP node and changing/removing the sustain node for Magicka users will make those Magicka builds for the Silent Casual just as worthless for them, as it does for us at the end-game level. But where that drives us end-gamer's to find a way around it, and it drives us to get the newer/better BiS gear to compensate, the Casual majority Player will simply see that their Magicka character no longer works, they'll see the task of rebuilding and reallocating Skillpoints, and the task of re-grinding or creating new gear, just on the notion that this might bring back a small level of viability to their characters, and they won't want to do it.

The game (again) is an escape for them, and having to go through all of that to make their character even partially work the way it did before the change, will not spark them to start grinding out like the end-game Player does. It will only spark a desire to find a game that hasn't arbitrarily gimped their characters, a game that allows them to just play and not have to worry about grinding out the best gear in the game just to be able to play.

As far as your question about "where" this mentality comes from; it's always been there since MMORPG's first emerged as their own genre.

You have the small, niche minority of players that race to end-game and fight and scrape to stay there, then you have the vast majority of... everyone else that just wants to log-in and run around in a fantasy world for a bit to forget the troubles of their real-life day.

And ever since MMO's emerged as their own genre; those players have ditched MMORPG's en masse once changes were made that arbitrarily increased the games base difficulty above the level of casual-play (like this proto-change to the CP constellations would do). Again; it's not that the Casual doesn't want to get better, it's that "getting better" has two very different meanings for Casual Players and End-game "Elite" Players.

OK so if I understand you correctly you are simply establishing the difference in "getting better" between players?

You speak of the Silent Casual and how they will just quit rather than grind out new gear, specs etc. Here is the thing. For one, you even stated these players don't grind out gear and so forth to begin with. So the whole concept of they would rather quite than grind doesn't add up. They will just do the same thing. Further, These silent casuals are also the players that will stick to some.overland questing. The easiest content in the game. Content where you don't need to worry about gear or skill combo's or weapon combo's etc. At worst this forces players to think just a tad more about light armor and, gear sets, and food/drink. The most minimal of thought might need to go into these players setups. If a player does not want to take minimal effort into the game to play it rather than mindlessly walking through it, then I say good riddance. These are not the players staying around spending money outside of the initial purchase anyway.

Players doing over land content not being willing to make minimal adjustments is crazy. Further, this is an mmo. It will be ever changing just like every mmo. Balance changes, meta shifts etc. So not making a change because some Silent Casual can't run around with no armor and a death staff to complete content is crazy.

Your condescension of the Casual Player, and inability to see past your point of view is really defeating your own argument.

YOU think that overland questing is the easiest aspect of the game. To the vast majority of the players base, whom only ever see the overland questing, that is quite challenging enough. But you can't seem to see that, because you're blinded by your own view of how the game "should be played".

You also cannot see that, those players will have their Magicka characters ruined by this game; but while they might do some light searching/crafting to try to fix the issue, they aren't going to devote the time to grind out Trials or Public Dungeons for the Monster Set drops that WILL rectify the issue. It will be more time consuming than any of them want, because of how casually they play ESO.

For the A-typical Casual Gamer (whom again, make up the vast majority of the games' population by quite a wide margin), the overland Questing IS the challenge that they're looking for, and while they can move through it with relative ease, it still provides enough challenge to give them the sensation that they're doing something.

But if this CP change goes through, then the difficulty of that same overland questing nearly triples due to all of the setbacks discussed here already ad nauseum. The reduced Magicka regen, the higher cost of abilities, lower DPS, having less resources and resource regen but the enemies still having the same damage modifiers/difficulty/resource drain attacks.

This will inordinately increase the difficulty for these Silent Casuals, and while they might try... something to get their lost DPS/Magicka pool/Magicka Regen, they aren't going to devote the time/effort to doing so that you are.

And all of your responses reek of the idea that the Casual Gamer is going to not only know about, but have the ability/time/desire to grind out the BiS gear that would correct the CP change, but can only be found in end-game content.

That's the core problem with your responses. You expect those same Casuals to simply grind it out like you would, when the truth is; when faced with a spike in difficulty caused by ZOS arbitrarily gimping their characters, it will be easier for the Silent Casual to find another High-Fantasy MMORPG and go play that, than it will be for them to figure out why their characters got weaker and the difficulty became much more intense, than to devote the time/money/effort/grinding necessary to find gear/monster drops that will make up for what ZOS takes away.

Your argument of "well, MMO's change all the time, people just need to adapt" is flawed in its very premise. MMORPG's have changed and evolved ever since the genre began. You are very correct in that.

But not every change is good or for the better of the game.

Bad changes, or ill-planned changes that hurt the Player and their Character(s), have chased players away from MMO's for just as long. Fact: Bad Changes like I mentioned have been the biggest killers of games in this genre since its inception. Those changes chase away the Casual Player, and no MMO survives those types of population hits. And no MMO has ever survived for long once the game became fine-tuned specifically for the end-game PvE/PvP player while leaving the Casual Players out in the wind. Not a single one.

So please, while you might be fine with this change, at least try to see past your "end-game-just-grind-out-new-stuff-PvE-is-toddler-level-easy-anyway" mentality. If you could, you would see how bad this change will be for the game as a whole.

Your points to me are based on a false premise. You seem to think that I am saying casuals need to grind for bis.

If you ready post you will notice that I don't expect that. I did say they have to put in some minimal effort to learn the game and it's mechanics
A person unwilling to put in minimal effort to learn the fundentals of the game should not be considered when balancing a game. Bottom line.

Objectively speaking, overland questing is the easiest content. To play that content you do not need bis or to grind for hours. This will be true if this change goes through. But it will make those players put in a bit more minimal effort to learn about the game.

Last, you say changes are a part of MMO's but bad changes drive people away. But that rests on the premise that it is a bad change. In your opinion it is. Imo it is a great chamge. Changes bring turnover in the playing population whether or not those changes are considered good or bad. Take no regen while tanking change. People left over that, but was it a bad change
No I don't think so. You say people leave over bad changes, I say people leave over changes period. But people also play because of those changes.

All in all, I never said these casuals need to grind out bis to play overland. No that is what people like us do. But they are not some special subset of people that will not or should not be effected by change. While we grind out for end game for hours, they simple need to learn the fundamentals of the game.

Additionally, I don't think mag will be useless. There are glyphs, mundus stones, light armor, armor etc that can be used. Opening up more options to play rather than all dps bis. Don't forget about abilities like mag drain and siphoning attacks etc. It just makes people think more about resources and damage rather than simply damage.

Kamatsu wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Your position rests upon the assumption that casuals don't know how to get better at a game and will.simply leave instead of getting better. I don't believe that is a correct assumptions for most casuals. Most casuals are willing to learn and get better and actually want to, they just need people to teach theme.

History has shown that you are incorrect - the silent majority will just leave the game if it suddenly gets too hard to play, they will not lrn2play & git gud and adapt.

A classic example of this is Guild Wars 2's Heart of Thorns expansion. GW2's base game was extremely easy and casual, you could get through all the maps and the main story with any build you wanted. Casual's loved it because it was easy... no thinking needed, just play what class, race & build you liked and had fun doing. People like you complained that the game was too easy and needed to be made harder, and that casual's would just 'lrn2ply' and deal with it. Anet listened and made HoT focused on group-play rather than solo, it was hugely more difficult than the base game.

Result: HUGE player loss and a HUGE 67% drop in revenue.

While ANet's income with GW2 had generally always been on a downwards trend (due to many, many factors.. some of which ZOS is itself repeating), it had never suffered such a huge loss in revenue before. The biggest drop prior had been around 30%. And yes, while HoT did see their revenue spike up from ppl buying the expansion in droves, and a drop was to be expected (generally speaking, a drop of 20-30% would have been expected, not 67%), the 67% revenue drop put it below where it would have been had they not released the game.

Shortly after HoT's release the official & unofficial forum's got filled with thread after thread, after thread, after thread of people complaining about how the game suddenly was way too hard, that they couldn't play solo anymore like they had throughout the base game, that they couldn't progress, etc. They didn't like that the game was suddenly forcing them to group up to do quest's, event's, get hero points (ie skill points), and get through map content to continue the expansions storyline.

And since the vast majority do not go to official forums, unofficial forums, reddit, etc... the forum user's were the tip of the iceburg of dislike for the difficulty. Some did state they knew many others in-game feeling the exact same way who wouldn't bother posting on the forums/reddit.

And within 2-3 weeks of launch, these same forums started filling up with threads about how the game was empty, how there weren't enough players to do events or get the group-only Hero Points completed. Why? Well, the mass zerg of the initial rush had already finished with the map's, the casual's had left the game because it had unexpectedly became too hard for them, and the game wasn't solo friendly anymore. So they struggled to finish map events, get hero point's, get through map completion to get to the next part of the expansions story.

Most of the forum-goes said 'pffft' to this, told them to use LFG to get groups, use map chat, suck it up & lrn2ply, etc. They didn't care, they had already finished the story with the zerg and were busy farming on just the last map of the expansion and/or doing the Raid. So they never got to see how empty and desolate the earlier maps were, and cause they had the same attitude as you... they didn't care.

ANet obviously did care as after a time of trying to deny it, they turned around and admitted that making the game so hard and casual unfriendly had been a big mistake, that they should not have listened to those crying out to make everything in the game hard and group focused. They nerfed a lot of the difficulty from HoT, although it's still harder than the base game... but a lot easier than it was originally, and also made many 'group only' encounters in the game solo friendly again (ie changed a mob from a group boss mob to a vet mob that could be beaten by 1 player). They also have promised to make things more casual friendly in their next expansion. Also to note is that their latest map expansions and releases have generally for the most part been more easy and casual focused than HoT originally was.

And this example is applicable since the base game of GW2 is just as easy as ESO is, and just as casual friendly. Both games you can get through the content and story playing just how you like and what class & race you like, with the weapons and skills you like.

So no, the casual silent majority will not suddenly 'lrn2ply' or 'git gud' or 'learn to get better' if they suddenly find that their character(s) can't get through content anymore. They will not go online to check forums, or look up build guides, or any of that. They will just leave if they find they cannot kill mobs anymore or complete quest's because suddenly they are dying all the time, they can't kill things because they run out of resources, etc.

The vast majority of ppl who play MMO's don't want to think, don't want to stress, don't want to challenge themselves. They get home from a hard day at work and just want to log into the game they like and have a relaxing 30-60 minutes of gameplay where they can finish a quest or two, do some other random stuff maybe, then log off and have dinner. If they log on and find they can't do that questing or other random stuff... they won't be inspired to 'git gud' or learn how things are... they will get frustrated, then angry, then quit the game, then uninstall it and go play something else that they can enjoy.. something where they can start it up and play it casually without having to think, or be stressed, etc.

When did video games become I don't have to learn anything about the game to play???

What I am saying is that these silent casuals will simply have to learn the fundamentals of the game. The very basic stuff that needs to be known in the game. I'm not talking bis. I'm not talking about grinding gear. I'm talking stuff like using drinks or food. Food or using a little more light armor etc. Basic basic stuff.

Your essentially saying we shouldn't balance the game because of these players that won't learn the very basic fundamental things about the game they are playing, so the rest of us suffer. I don't think so. At a minimum people should be expected to learn these basics. That is all. Just basics. That is all it takes to get through overland content.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Dang, I'm going to have to manage my resources now?! Sup with that?

All I hear is "this games too easy all around" l.

*ZOS makes game more difficult*

"OMG they can't do this! I'll be dead so hard!"

I have consiistantly campaigned against turning this game into darksouls. The people who -want- that to happen are greedy, and their way of game design leaves no room for anyone else. Do not lump all of us into the same pile.

Dark Souls? That teeny bopper level of difficulty.

I want Ninja Gaiden Online.

I spent more time on Alma than I did in the entirety of Demon Souls.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

@Uriel_Nocturne I do agree, that it is not good taking away power from players. Same issue happened when the CP system was introduced. people lost power (they just didnt realize yet they were gonna be stronger afterwards) and QQ was raining down in the forums.
I speak from experience, I was really good at QQing on the forums in my first year

1.ANY Player does not like to loose power. No matter what game they play.
2. Forum does not represent the playerbase at all. When do you go to forums? You go there when you have to complain about something. If you are happy why would you bother? (Sure there is a small percentage that actually wants to talk about mechanics etc).
3. The Players that aactually care about changes are a small minority, the game is full of casuals which most likely will not even feel the difference.

However, I do think IF CHANGES SHOULD HAPPEN, then now is the right time. BEFORE Morrowind releases. Because there will be a lot of new players. Morrowind will make or break this game. So I really hope ZOS fixes the biggest issues....

And again, I am all for nerfing this monkey Championpoint system. They are going into the right direction. Still needs more nerfing.

WHY for gods sake does extra CP give you more resources?! Remove that *** its way too OP. @ZOS_RichLambert

I am all for that people actually have to turn on the switch in their brains again and L2P once more in this game.

[Edit for profanity]

@Alcast A couple of things:

1) I fully read your post, and while I see where you are coming from, I completely disagree with you on how the CP system is "supposed to work".

2) For all of your thoughts, this change (removing the sustain node and cost reduction node) will actually hit lower CP players just as hard as it does the top 1% of players (end-game-level Players). The sustain and cost reduction nodes scale by percentiles (as I know you are aware), so any removal/change like this will hit even the Silent Casual just as hard as it does say... the Streamers and "Elites" who run nothing but end-game level content (Trials, VMA, VDSA).

3) These changes, if made without reducing the base cost of Magicka abilities by 15-16%, while reducing the resource regeneration, will destroy most every Magicka build in the game.

4) Because of #3, most of those Silent Casual players will suddenly have their (most likely) one and only character no longer viable. They're cost of abilities will go up significantly, especially when Spam Skills are taken into consideration. Their Magicka pools will run out faster, and will return to them slower. They're going to find themselves in content that they could make it through before the patch, but now cannot complete after the patch for the simple fact that they're running out of resources too fast and it takes longer for them to return.

These players aren't going to "L2P" or flip any switch in their brains. They don't cruise through Streams or Build Guides like you provide. Hell, they probably don't even know about 75% of the crafting stations and Sets in the game, and they definitely don't know about how the Monster Drop Sets work or would want to grind out the countless hours to get any of it like you or I would, even though those Sets may/may not mitigate the effects of the change.

If this change goes through, the vast majority of the player base will suddenly find that their one and only character simply cannot complete challenges one day, that they could the previous day.

But you are right about one thing: the Silent Casual won't care. They won't follow your suggestions, indeed they will most likely never visit your Streams for you to peddle an elitist viewpoint on how the game "should be played".

They'll see that their character no longer works. There won't be a readily-available, quick fix to restore their character's potency, and they'll simply quit and go play something else.

Because like most every other Streamer and Forum user, you're taking a position that the fixes to cope with this are "obvious", and for the level of content that you run, getting the correct set of gear that coordinates well with pieces from other Sets, are easy to regain/acquire.

But the level of content that you and I run every day, the level of content that you and I find to be easy, that content is (and will most likely always be) far out of reach of the vast majority of players. They simply will never have access to the fixes that you're suggesting and promoting.

And that's where your entire argument breaks down. Your suggestions are a fine workaround for the <5% that run end-game content, and for that top 5% of the playing populace, your suggestions might/might not work. But for the rest of the player base, the Silent Casual, this will be an insurmountable change. It will be insurmountable for them, the game will become magnitudes more difficult, and they'll leave.

Because while you or I have countless hours to grind away at this game, and some of the players have found a way to make this game (and other games) their careers; the vast, vast majority of players just use this game as an escape and come here to have fun. Not to have epic-frustration-levels of difficulty. The game will no longer make their characters effective to cruise through PvE content, and those players will leave.

So while your suggestions and those proto-change to the CP constellations might be workable for the 5% of players at end-game, it will only serve to drive away armies worth of Casual Players. It will not spark that desire for them to grind away and "L2P", it will spark a desire for them to go and play a game where their characters still feel remotely powerful.

And that will only be horrifically damaging to this MMO.

I read your whole post.

I'm sorry but if a player who jumps into a new game does not know how the game works or just refuses to learn the mechanics and the things they need to get better, then that is on them. The casual content is easy enough that even for casuals with ridiculous builds can spam snipe to get through haha.

Your position rests upon the assumption that casuals don't know how to get better at a game and will.simply leave instead of getting better. I don't believe that is a correct assumptions for most casuals. Most casuals are willing to learn and get better and actually want to, they just need people to teach theme.

This was my first mmo ever. I am a Tes fan and why I got into this. The first year of this game I didn't know about weaving/animation canceling. I mained bow in dungeons as a stam.nb. as you will recall a stam player and a nb for much of first year was trash. I didn't even know about food or drink. Yet I was still able.to do all most content in the game. Then one day a friend in gAmerica taught me all of these things. I learned at got way way better to where I am very very good now. I now pass that knowledge along to new players who soak it up like a sponge.

You make the point that casuals don't play the end get stuff that many of us here do. That they simply will not be good enough to access the content we run. So if this is the, then how will this effect them? The stuff they do play is very easy to where I have been with players in dungeons who spam snipe no problem and that is it through whole dungeon. So what this will do for casuals is make those really easy dungeons they do run a bit harder. Not enough to make them quit, enough to make them think more and ask questions because despite your position, people want to get better before they decide to quit.

Then there are casuals that just run overland content and quest. The easiest content in game. This change is not going to make people so bad at overland content that they quit. See my scenario above. You can walk through the overland content with any build and win.

A game is not about being able to just run through it without thinking about how gear, stats, skills, etc. What player gets into a game thinking we'll if I can't just walk through this content without learning how to play the game then I quit????? When did this mentality start??? You can't blame a game for being too hard if your unwilling to learn how to play the game. You have no right to complain about it. I mean just think about that for a second. Hey guys your game is too hard so I quit make it easier. What was too hard? Oh well I can't really tell you because I never learned how to play the game. ????? You want to balance around that type of player???? I don't think so.

@bowmanz607 And I read your whole post, and you missed the mark just by a bit.

You've oversimplified the argument, and become lost in the same mentality that @Alcast has.

It's not that the Silent Casual majority simply doesn't know how to get better at the game, it's that their version of "getting better" is very different from what you or I view as getting better.

As I said in my most recent post; they play the game, they try out different Skills, they try out different equipment from drops and what rafting stations that they find in the wilderness, and they find something that works to get them through the content and allows them to just play the game. Just being allowed to play the game, at a mildly challenging level of difficulty, but that they can move through with only a small bit of effort; that is what the Silent Casual is looking for. I'll say it again; video games in general, and MMORPG's as a whole genre are an escape for them. The Casual majority doesn't wan tsoul-crushing challenge like the end-game player wants.

You, I, and the Streamers (as well as the rest of the Hardcore players) view "getting better" as being able to run through the hardest content in the game. If our DPS/Sustain/Healing/tanking aren't putting out the numbers we need, we grind through to get the BiS gear, and we min/max until we have the toughest builds in the game. That is how we view "getting better".

It's not that the Silent Casual doesn't have a desire to get better, it's that what "getting better" means that is important.

Again, as I replied to for Alcast; removing the resource regen CP node and changing/removing the sustain node for Magicka users will make those Magicka builds for the Silent Casual just as worthless for them, as it does for us at the end-game level. But where that drives us end-gamer's to find a way around it, and it drives us to get the newer/better BiS gear to compensate, the Casual majority Player will simply see that their Magicka character no longer works, they'll see the task of rebuilding and reallocating Skillpoints, and the task of re-grinding or creating new gear, just on the notion that this might bring back a small level of viability to their characters, and they won't want to do it.

The game (again) is an escape for them, and having to go through all of that to make their character even partially work the way it did before the change, will not spark them to start grinding out like the end-game Player does. It will only spark a desire to find a game that hasn't arbitrarily gimped their characters, a game that allows them to just play and not have to worry about grinding out the best gear in the game just to be able to play.

As far as your question about "where" this mentality comes from; it's always been there since MMORPG's first emerged as their own genre.

You have the small, niche minority of players that race to end-game and fight and scrape to stay there, then you have the vast majority of... everyone else that just wants to log-in and run around in a fantasy world for a bit to forget the troubles of their real-life day.

And ever since MMO's emerged as their own genre; those players have ditched MMORPG's en masse once changes were made that arbitrarily increased the games base difficulty above the level of casual-play (like this proto-change to the CP constellations would do). Again; it's not that the Casual doesn't want to get better, it's that "getting better" has two very different meanings for Casual Players and End-game "Elite" Players.

OK so if I understand you correctly you are simply establishing the difference in "getting better" between players?

You speak of the Silent Casual and how they will just quit rather than grind out new gear, specs etc. Here is the thing. For one, you even stated these players don't grind out gear and so forth to begin with. So the whole concept of they would rather quite than grind doesn't add up. They will just do the same thing. Further, These silent casuals are also the players that will stick to some.overland questing. The easiest content in the game. Content where you don't need to worry about gear or skill combo's or weapon combo's etc. At worst this forces players to think just a tad more about light armor and, gear sets, and food/drink. The most minimal of thought might need to go into these players setups. If a player does not want to take minimal effort into the game to play it rather than mindlessly walking through it, then I say good riddance. These are not the players staying around spending money outside of the initial purchase anyway.

Players doing over land content not being willing to make minimal adjustments is crazy. Further, this is an mmo. It will be ever changing just like every mmo. Balance changes, meta shifts etc. So not making a change because some Silent Casual can't run around with no armor and a death staff to complete content is crazy.

Your condescension of the Casual Player, and inability to see past your point of view is really defeating your own argument.

YOU think that overland questing is the easiest aspect of the game. To the vast majority of the players base, whom only ever see the overland questing, that is quite challenging enough. But you can't seem to see that, because you're blinded by your own view of how the game "should be played".

You also cannot see that, those players will have their Magicka characters ruined by this game; but while they might do some light searching/crafting to try to fix the issue, they aren't going to devote the time to grind out Trials or Public Dungeons for the Monster Set drops that WILL rectify the issue. It will be more time consuming than any of them want, because of how casually they play ESO.

For the A-typical Casual Gamer (whom again, make up the vast majority of the games' population by quite a wide margin), the overland Questing IS the challenge that they're looking for, and while they can move through it with relative ease, it still provides enough challenge to give them the sensation that they're doing something.

But if this CP change goes through, then the difficulty of that same overland questing nearly triples due to all of the setbacks discussed here already ad nauseum. The reduced Magicka regen, the higher cost of abilities, lower DPS, having less resources and resource regen but the enemies still having the same damage modifiers/difficulty/resource drain attacks.

This will inordinately increase the difficulty for these Silent Casuals, and while they might try... something to get their lost DPS/Magicka pool/Magicka Regen, they aren't going to devote the time/effort to doing so that you are.

And all of your responses reek of the idea that the Casual Gamer is going to not only know about, but have the ability/time/desire to grind out the BiS gear that would correct the CP change, but can only be found in end-game content.

That's the core problem with your responses. You expect those same Casuals to simply grind it out like you would, when the truth is; when faced with a spike in difficulty caused by ZOS arbitrarily gimping their characters, it will be easier for the Silent Casual to find another High-Fantasy MMORPG and go play that, than it will be for them to figure out why their characters got weaker and the difficulty became much more intense, than to devote the time/money/effort/grinding necessary to find gear/monster drops that will make up for what ZOS takes away.

Your argument of "well, MMO's change all the time, people just need to adapt" is flawed in its very premise. MMORPG's have changed and evolved ever since the genre began. You are very correct in that.

But not every change is good or for the better of the game.

Bad changes, or ill-planned changes that hurt the Player and their Character(s), have chased players away from MMO's for just as long. Fact: Bad Changes like I mentioned have been the biggest killers of games in this genre since its inception. Those changes chase away the Casual Player, and no MMO survives those types of population hits. And no MMO has ever survived for long once the game became fine-tuned specifically for the end-game PvE/PvP player while leaving the Casual Players out in the wind. Not a single one.

So please, while you might be fine with this change, at least try to see past your "end-game-just-grind-out-new-stuff-PvE-is-toddler-level-easy-anyway" mentality. If you could, you would see how bad this change will be for the game as a whole.

Your points to me are based on a false premise. You seem to think that I am saying casuals need to grind for bis.

If you ready post you will notice that I don't expect that. I did say they have to put in some minimal effort to learn the game and it's mechanics
A person unwilling to put in minimal effort to learn the fundentals of the game should not be considered when balancing a game. Bottom line.

Objectively speaking, overland questing is the easiest content. To play that content you do not need bis or to grind for hours. This will be true if this change goes through. But it will make those players put in a bit more minimal effort to learn about the game.

Last, you say changes are a part of MMO's but bad changes drive people away. But that rests on the premise that it is a bad change. In your opinion it is. Imo it is a great chamge. Changes bring turnover in the playing population whether or not those changes are considered good or bad. Take no regen while tanking change. People left over that, but was it a bad change
No I don't think so. You say people leave over bad changes, I say people leave over changes period. But people also play because of those changes.

All in all, I never said these casuals need to grind out bis to play overland. No that is what people like us do. But they are not some special subset of people that will not or should not be effected by change. While we grind out for end game for hours, they simple need to learn the fundamentals of the game.

Additionally, I don't think mag will be useless. There are glyphs, mundus stones, light armor, armor etc that can be used. Opening up more options to play rather than all dps bis. Don't forget about abilities like mag drain and siphoning attacks etc. It just makes people think more about resources and damage rather than simply damage.

@bowmanz607 Your missing the point.

He's not saying it's a bad change. He may think poorly of it, but it does not need to be a bad change to drive people away.

"A person who is unwilling to put in minimal effort" is still a customer. This is the only MMO where I have ever seen this mentality. It's an idiotic mentality. This is the elitist mentality that has made it so the endgame community is the same bunch of people it was, slowly growing because it -wont- teach new players.

Your mentality is the way of death, and a dying game. I pray we all abandon it. You call for the filthy casuals who you hate so much (I can tell you hate them simply from how you reguard them) to learn the fundementals of a game, from a game that never teaches. This mentality, is why the tutorial has never been updated. Why the game, in it's two years, has never made an effort to -arm- players with knowledge that would alleviate these problems.

I have no doubt Magicka will be useless with these changes. I have no doubt that content will come to a grinding halt as very few people bother to adapt to a change, which is, quite simply, broken.

Exactly.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Kamatsu wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Your position rests upon the assumption that casuals don't know how to get better at a game and will.simply leave instead of getting better. I don't believe that is a correct assumptions for most casuals. Most casuals are willing to learn and get better and actually want to, they just need people to teach theme.

History has shown that you are incorrect - the silent majority will just leave the game if it suddenly gets too hard to play, they will not lrn2play & git gud and adapt.

A classic example of this is Guild Wars 2's Heart of Thorns expansion. GW2's base game was extremely easy and casual, you could get through all the maps and the main story with any build you wanted. Casual's loved it because it was easy... no thinking needed, just play what class, race & build you liked and had fun doing. People like you complained that the game was too easy and needed to be made harder, and that casual's would just 'lrn2ply' and deal with it. Anet listened and made HoT focused on group-play rather than solo, it was hugely more difficult than the base game.

Result: HUGE player loss and a HUGE 67% drop in revenue.

While ANet's income with GW2 had generally always been on a downwards trend (due to many, many factors.. some of which ZOS is itself repeating), it had never suffered such a huge loss in revenue before. The biggest drop prior had been around 30%. And yes, while HoT did see their revenue spike up from ppl buying the expansion in droves, and a drop was to be expected (generally speaking, a drop of 20-30% would have been expected, not 67%), the 67% revenue drop put it below where it would have been had they not released the game.

Shortly after HoT's release the official & unofficial forum's got filled with thread after thread, after thread, after thread of people complaining about how the game suddenly was way too hard, that they couldn't play solo anymore like they had throughout the base game, that they couldn't progress, etc. They didn't like that the game was suddenly forcing them to group up to do quest's, event's, get hero points (ie skill points), and get through map content to continue the expansions storyline.

And since the vast majority do not go to official forums, unofficial forums, reddit, etc... the forum user's were the tip of the iceburg of dislike for the difficulty. Some did state they knew many others in-game feeling the exact same way who wouldn't bother posting on the forums/reddit.

And within 2-3 weeks of launch, these same forums started filling up with threads about how the game was empty, how there weren't enough players to do events or get the group-only Hero Points completed. Why? Well, the mass zerg of the initial rush had already finished with the map's, the casual's had left the game because it had unexpectedly became too hard for them, and the game wasn't solo friendly anymore. So they struggled to finish map events, get hero point's, get through map completion to get to the next part of the expansions story.

Most of the forum-goes said 'pffft' to this, told them to use LFG to get groups, use map chat, suck it up & lrn2ply, etc. They didn't care, they had already finished the story with the zerg and were busy farming on just the last map of the expansion and/or doing the Raid. So they never got to see how empty and desolate the earlier maps were, and cause they had the same attitude as you... they didn't care.

ANet obviously did care as after a time of trying to deny it, they turned around and admitted that making the game so hard and casual unfriendly had been a big mistake, that they should not have listened to those crying out to make everything in the game hard and group focused. They nerfed a lot of the difficulty from HoT, although it's still harder than the base game... but a lot easier than it was originally, and also made many 'group only' encounters in the game solo friendly again (ie changed a mob from a group boss mob to a vet mob that could be beaten by 1 player). They also have promised to make things more casual friendly in their next expansion. Also to note is that their latest map expansions and releases have generally for the most part been more easy and casual focused than HoT originally was.

And this example is applicable since the base game of GW2 is just as easy as ESO is, and just as casual friendly. Both games you can get through the content and story playing just how you like and what class & race you like, with the weapons and skills you like.

So no, the casual silent majority will not suddenly 'lrn2ply' or 'git gud' or 'learn to get better' if they suddenly find that their character(s) can't get through content anymore. They will not go online to check forums, or look up build guides, or any of that. They will just leave if they find they cannot kill mobs anymore or complete quest's because suddenly they are dying all the time, they can't kill things because they run out of resources, etc.

The vast majority of ppl who play MMO's don't want to think, don't want to stress, don't want to challenge themselves. They get home from a hard day at work and just want to log into the game they like and have a relaxing 30-60 minutes of gameplay where they can finish a quest or two, do some other random stuff maybe, then log off and have dinner. If they log on and find they can't do that questing or other random stuff... they won't be inspired to 'git gud' or learn how things are... they will get frustrated, then angry, then quit the game, then uninstall it and go play something else that they can enjoy.. something where they can start it up and play it casually without having to think, or be stressed, etc.

When did video games become I don't have to learn anything about the game to play???

What I am saying is that these silent casuals will simply have to learn the fundamentals of the game. The very basic stuff that needs to be known in the game. I'm not talking bis. I'm not talking about grinding gear. I'm talking stuff like using drinks or food. Food or using a little more light armor etc. Basic basic stuff.

Your essentially saying we shouldn't balance the game because of these players that won't learn the very basic fundamental things about the game they are playing, so the rest of us suffer. I don't think so. At a minimum people should be expected to learn these basics. That is all. Just basics. That is all it takes to get through overland content.

But they won't.

IF this change to the CP constellations goes live, the game will become magnitudes more difficult for the Casuals, and they won't do what you're suggesting. They never have, they won't now.

They'll just leave, because their mildly challenging romp in a High-Fantasy world will have become magnitudes more difficult overnight, and their nascent character builds will be destroyed.

So they won't learn what you so dismissively claim to be "so easy" (because you STILL can't see past your own opinion on the game), but they WILL move to a different MMORPG that DOES let them have their relaxing romp in a fantasy world.

And losing that many players over such a silly, ill-thought-out change would be the death of ESO, just like it has been for every MMO before ESO that has made changes like this.

Again I'll state; "WHEN" did this mentality come about? It's always been there. This is the mindset of the majority of the Player population in every single MMORPG ever. It's only the elitists like yourself who can't seem to wrap their heads around these simple concepts.

usmcjdking wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I'm okay with the change, and I've already got a way to work around having less sustain.

I strongly believe block cost CP should get a nerf to go with it, blowing my Magicka pool on someone blocking should drain both of our resources. Not just mine. Fair is fair, a one click "scotch tape the mouse button down" defense shouldn't be that much stronger.

I also hope that they just nerf the cost CP instead of eliminating it entirely. Say, 10-12% instead of 25%? Removing it is a little too drastic, but a nerf of some kind is definitely called for.

Look, I understand god-mode sustain is a problem in this game, and that battlegrounds just WONT work with some of the cancer builds out there. I think you need to take a hard look at some of the available sets first.

@Minalan , the longer you hold, the more expensive it (block cost) becomes and the lower your follow up regen becomes.

A block cooldown/penalty, if you will. There needs to be an opening somewhere in there.

They do it for roll dodge and skills like streak, why not for block?

There should be no such thing as a permablock build. There should be some kind of recover time requried.

Because tanks would be ***, how would you tank a trial

By blocking when appropriate. Tanking in this game can be fun but is otherwise a joke.

"Block when appropriate?" OK let me just go tank vAA HM Axes and Block "when appropriate", oh wait, that's always. having 5-7 Axes constantly Heavy attacking you and if you happen to miss blocking just a single on of them you are dead and you have just released all those axes onto the rest of the group. Reactive blocking isn't gonna be a thing in this game cause its not an action combat game. Damage is calculated BEFORE any animation hits, with the exception of the telegraphs. Its the same reason why so many people yell out in frustration "I was out of that" and yea you might have run/roll dodged before the animation but sadly that won't save you all of the time. Now I would love it if this was a bit more action combat like but that would require remaking the entire game from scratch, and so since that won't happen can we please stop trying to make tanks have to "Block when appropriate"

Sounds like a perfect opportunity to have another tank.

In Hardmode there is already another tank and its not a role that can just be filed by a DPS or Healer with a taunt. Cause its not just taunting the mage its taunting the Storm atros and moving them to where they need to be. Some people take them to the mini mages and other keep them on the boss but either way its not something a normal DPS or Healer can do, and in a HM you can't be wasting DPS on that either, as well a tank in a position like that close to the boss can give alkosh or powerful assault. So if you yet again want to put in another tank it would be a third one and would lower DPS even more, and considering how long the burn is on HM that will make it harder still. I like trials with 2 tanks but I don't like it when it goes over that, cause at that point we might as well all just go to PvP like set up with self heals and self sustain and no tanks at all.

psychotic13 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I'm okay with the change, and I've already got a way to work around having less sustain.

I strongly believe block cost CP should get a nerf to go with it, blowing my Magicka pool on someone blocking should drain both of our resources. Not just mine. Fair is fair, a one click "scotch tape the mouse button down" defense shouldn't be that much stronger.

I also hope that they just nerf the cost CP instead of eliminating it entirely. Say, 10-12% instead of 25%? Removing it is a little too drastic, but a nerf of some kind is definitely called for.

Look, I understand god-mode sustain is a problem in this game, and that battlegrounds just WONT work with some of the cancer builds out there. I think you need to take a hard look at some of the available sets first.

@Minalan , the longer you hold, the more expensive it (block cost) becomes and the lower your follow up regen becomes.

A block cooldown/penalty, if you will. There needs to be an opening somewhere in there.

They do it for roll dodge and skills like streak, why not for block?

There should be no such thing as a permablock build. There should be some kind of recover time requried.

Because tanks would be ***, how would you tank a trial

By blocking when appropriate. Tanking in this game can be fun but is otherwise a joke.

"Block when appropriate?" OK let me just go tank vAA HM Axes and Block "when appropriate", oh wait, that's always. having 5-7 Axes constantly Heavy attacking you and if you happen to miss blocking just a single on of them you are dead and you have just released all those axes onto the rest of the group. Reactive blocking isn't gonna be a thing in this game cause its not an action combat game. Damage is calculated BEFORE any animation hits, with the exception of the telegraphs. Its the same reason why so many people yell out in frustration "I was out of that" and yea you might have run/roll dodged before the animation but sadly that won't save you all of the time. Now I would love it if this was a bit more action combat like but that would require remaking the entire game from scratch, and so since that won't happen can we please stop trying to make tanks have to "Block when appropriate"

That was my first thought, they haven't done vAA

Yeah, it's exactly like in the NERF this and NERF that threads. Always a bunch of clueless noobs blathering nonsense. Anyone (else) immediately see who should not listened to, at all.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kamatsu wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Your position rests upon the assumption that casuals don't know how to get better at a game and will.simply leave instead of getting better. I don't believe that is a correct assumptions for most casuals. Most casuals are willing to learn and get better and actually want to, they just need people to teach theme.

History has shown that you are incorrect - the silent majority will just leave the game if it suddenly gets too hard to play, they will not lrn2play & git gud and adapt.

A classic example of this is Guild Wars 2's Heart of Thorns expansion. GW2's base game was extremely easy and casual, you could get through all the maps and the main story with any build you wanted. Casual's loved it because it was easy... no thinking needed, just play what class, race & build you liked and had fun doing. People like you complained that the game was too easy and needed to be made harder, and that casual's would just 'lrn2ply' and deal with it. Anet listened and made HoT focused on group-play rather than solo, it was hugely more difficult than the base game.

Result: HUGE player loss and a HUGE 67% drop in revenue.

While ANet's income with GW2 had generally always been on a downwards trend (due to many, many factors.. some of which ZOS is itself repeating), it had never suffered such a huge loss in revenue before. The biggest drop prior had been around 30%. And yes, while HoT did see their revenue spike up from ppl buying the expansion in droves, and a drop was to be expected (generally speaking, a drop of 20-30% would have been expected, not 67%), the 67% revenue drop put it below where it would have been had they not released the game.

Shortly after HoT's release the official & unofficial forum's got filled with thread after thread, after thread, after thread of people complaining about how the game suddenly was way too hard, that they couldn't play solo anymore like they had throughout the base game, that they couldn't progress, etc. They didn't like that the game was suddenly forcing them to group up to do quest's, event's, get hero points (ie skill points), and get through map content to continue the expansions storyline.

And since the vast majority do not go to official forums, unofficial forums, reddit, etc... the forum user's were the tip of the iceburg of dislike for the difficulty. Some did state they knew many others in-game feeling the exact same way who wouldn't bother posting on the forums/reddit.

And within 2-3 weeks of launch, these same forums started filling up with threads about how the game was empty, how there weren't enough players to do events or get the group-only Hero Points completed. Why? Well, the mass zerg of the initial rush had already finished with the map's, the casual's had left the game because it had unexpectedly became too hard for them, and the game wasn't solo friendly anymore. So they struggled to finish map events, get hero point's, get through map completion to get to the next part of the expansions story.

Most of the forum-goes said 'pffft' to this, told them to use LFG to get groups, use map chat, suck it up & lrn2ply, etc. They didn't care, they had already finished the story with the zerg and were busy farming on just the last map of the expansion and/or doing the Raid. So they never got to see how empty and desolate the earlier maps were, and cause they had the same attitude as you... they didn't care.

ANet obviously did care as after a time of trying to deny it, they turned around and admitted that making the game so hard and casual unfriendly had been a big mistake, that they should not have listened to those crying out to make everything in the game hard and group focused. They nerfed a lot of the difficulty from HoT, although it's still harder than the base game... but a lot easier than it was originally, and also made many 'group only' encounters in the game solo friendly again (ie changed a mob from a group boss mob to a vet mob that could be beaten by 1 player). They also have promised to make things more casual friendly in their next expansion. Also to note is that their latest map expansions and releases have generally for the most part been more easy and casual focused than HoT originally was.

And this example is applicable since the base game of GW2 is just as easy as ESO is, and just as casual friendly. Both games you can get through the content and story playing just how you like and what class & race you like, with the weapons and skills you like.

So no, the casual silent majority will not suddenly 'lrn2ply' or 'git gud' or 'learn to get better' if they suddenly find that their character(s) can't get through content anymore. They will not go online to check forums, or look up build guides, or any of that. They will just leave if they find they cannot kill mobs anymore or complete quest's because suddenly they are dying all the time, they can't kill things because they run out of resources, etc.

The vast majority of ppl who play MMO's don't want to think, don't want to stress, don't want to challenge themselves. They get home from a hard day at work and just want to log into the game they like and have a relaxing 30-60 minutes of gameplay where they can finish a quest or two, do some other random stuff maybe, then log off and have dinner. If they log on and find they can't do that questing or other random stuff... they won't be inspired to 'git gud' or learn how things are... they will get frustrated, then angry, then quit the game, then uninstall it and go play something else that they can enjoy.. something where they can start it up and play it casually without having to think, or be stressed, etc.

So much this!

I can't understand how some people can be so dense to not understand these OBVIOUS and ALWAYS REPEATING gamers behaviors. We are not in 2000, where MMO players behaviors were unknown. These days anyone (should) know which action is going to cause always the same reaction.

Go to SWTOR forums for a living example of an expansion gone bad. In fact I quit there and returned here. But I am ready to go to somewhere else if ESO is going to repeat the same stupid mistakes EA did in their last SWTOR expansion.

Agreed.

I've been spending more time in Star Trek Online since this was shown at PAX. I'm not hugely involved in it. I'm not looking for end-game uber-ship builds. I'm just using what works and tootling around the galaxy in my Federation ship, Questing and satisfying the inner SciFi nerd.

I know how to make a good, solid build though. Twenty years of MMO's has taught me what to look for. But there's no pressure for me to hit the "elitist-best" ship builds.

It's just a fun, SciFi MMORPG.

I still log in to ESO to check my characters' mail and to wander a bit here and there. But a destructive change like what Wrobel wants to do with the CP constellations has stolen a bit of my fire for ESO for the current time.

Will it return? Will I return to play as hardcore as I was even a week ago? Who knows.

That very much depends on ZOS.