In the first place, continually sustained DPS should not be achievable with pure dps builds (Spell power runes on jewelry, pure dps focused sets), even with the help of a healer giving Resource regen. That in itself is purely wrong. This creates a scenario whereby DPS sets and DPS focused runes become BIS, which is the case now.

Instead, with this sort of change, Mana regen sets have a better standing now. Which is a fair way to balance sets.

Peeps with pure dps should only be able to deal spike damage in intermittent periods of time, not all the time.

Those that mix Manage regen sets and mana runes will be able to have more sustained dps, aibeit lower then pure dps sets.

That to me is a fair trade off. Forcing the player to make hard choices.

Either
A. Huge spike damage, but non sustainable.
B. Moderate continuous sustainable damage.

Not
C. Huge sustainable damage all the time. (Which is precisely what is happening right now in the BIS case scenario)

The changes proposed with the new CP system helps to put this into place. And I am all for it. It helps bring up the viability of lesser sets without actually having to screw with the stats of the sets itself. The brings in line a good amount of game balance, and I applaud the changes to come.

Tasear wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

Dao_Jones wrote: »

My guess? If they go through with this it will bother the crap out of the top ~20% of players (who need every ounce of performance to do the content they do) and the bottom 20% (who need every bit of help they can get just to play), while the remaining 60% will likely say "meh", adjust accordingly, and move on with their gaming lives.

I'm neither a top player nor someone who needs every possible buff just to play. Would I still be able to function in-game after this change? Yes, probably. But I've invested a lot of time and effort (and quite a few resources) into making my characters as good as I could (even though they're nowhere near in the same league as the top players) and I will be highly annoyed seeing them get bumped down to an ineffective level, essentially making my hard work useless.

This nerf will suck a bit, but I think people are greatly over stating their case.
You're losing SOME regen and skills will cost a LITTLE bit more.

It will hurt the very top, mostly because they have very carefully adjusted their builds to put out as much damage as possible while BARELY not running out of resources. If the fight ends and they have 80% resources then to them it means they could do more damage.

The rest of us will fall somewhere between "I seem to run out of resources a little bit quicker in long fights, but I was doing that already because I just spam the skills" and "did they change something? I have 2k magi regen and most of my damage comes from heavy attacks"

I mean, think of how many threads have been posted in the last month complaining about bow users who just light attack spam through pugs. Does anyone think those "casuals" are going to notice even remotely?

@Nebthet78 Has hit the nail on the head in identifying the people who will be affected by this change, and it's possible that ZoS will need to re-balance some of the Vet Trials. Mind you, I can remember pretty much exactly the same complaints and comments from exactly the same section of the community when stam regen while blocking was removed, so I take it with a grain of salt.

The CP tree actually allows players to balance between damage and regen if they so choose to do so.

this however is blatantly untrue. Damage and sustain are in different sections of the CP trees. You get to take all the sustain and all the damage from CP. In fact the only "choices" you make are between increase DOT damage vs increase Crit damage.

The current CP structure is about choosing between stamina or magi, NOT damage and sustain, which is what I personally disagree with.

It's all about the dps! But what about the healers! You don't think casual won't notice when suddenly people keep saying LF Healer Templar only or Warden only". They won't even understand and will be hurt as community reverts back to a year ago when Templars were litterly the god healing class.

Ah, but here's the thing. If healing is deemed lacking due to sustain, resource cost for healing spells and abilities can be lowered to compensate. Since Support and DPS can be considered as 2 exclusive fields, it is much easier to lower costs for healing side without affect DPS too much.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Wrobel is killing this game, strangling it because he never knew how the system was supposed to function and never cared. This change will drive many away from the game instead of encouraging them to learn.

On how many patches has Chicken Little's "sky is falling" forewarning has occured, declaring the end of the game ? On how many patches did people just take it in stride in the end?

I am of the exact opposite opinion, this is a meta shift, people will just adapt and get around forming new builds and creating new theories. At the very least the meta won't be stale anymore. In fact, the unknown is pretty exciting, and I look forward to the new challenges it throws my our way.

As a pve player I will quit if this happens!!! Good thing i havent preordered morrowind yet

At least for end-game content the factors damage, sustain, skill costs, enemy health/resistance and (optional) enrage timers have to balanced in a way to complete the content.
Most players I know that are currently playing said content (all non the ultra-extreme high end players) are already struggling with sustain issues during longer fights. If only the cost factors are increased (as shown on the slides) and nothing else is given in return then a lot players that are currently able to finish said content will no longer be able to do so.

And it's not only the users on this forum anymore, the information is already spreading via reddit, facebook, etc. I know quite a few guild mates that are very concerned about these changes.
A heads up from ZOS would really be nice.

Forum wise: Tagging the moderators a thousand times doesn't somehow magically make them respond. I'm quite certain they have a nice little overlay at the top of their screen showing which threads are receiving the most traffic and probably peer in from time to time accordingly.

Having a different toolbar that say 500 people in thread X have mentioned you doesn't change that either way.

They know this is here and they're either going to respond or they aren't, so it's not necessary to think you'll be the one that somehow trips that internal counter that makes them say "Oh, well, with this many mentions, I'm obligated to respond now."

Seems like it should work that way, but it does not.
Back to the subject at hand:
They could adjust this so that points would have to be spent (rotating) in each constellation, with a third of your points going into each minor constellation, not just the rotation of Thief/Warrior/Mage.

The caveat to this is they'd have to make useful stars for all classes/types in those constellations. This would probably mean some restructuring/reshuffling of the star locations, perhaps swapping out the lesser used ones for something new and functional.

Presently, there are minor constellations that see zero use in some builds, with the obvious side effect of maxing out the useful ones in the remaining constellation(s). It could be balanced more simply by requiring points to be spread more evenly...

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Omg we can't sustain in heavy any more awwwww the sky is falling!!!!!!! Get a grip people.

Also, stop acting like you all ready entitled to a response just because a thread goes for a little while. They owe you no response. They are still working their own stiff out.

God such a sense of entitlement.

Classic person attempting to shut down the discussion for the sheer sake that they dont like the discussion.

@bowmanz607 Dont come here if you dont like it. We wont stop.

PS: No one is talking about Heavy armor alone. These changes, combined with current costs will mean it will be near impossible to sustain yourself without regular potions unless they lower costs or buff armor passives. You walked in here with preconcieved notions and didn't bother to read. Leave. No one needs an ill informed *** making a mess of things here.

This is simply not true though. If this was the case then it would be near impossible for cp < 300 to sustain themselves. I didn't see people all over the forums saying "I'm cp 250 and I run out of resources constantly!" or anything even remotely like that.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most end game / trial level players constantly using potions for crit buffs etc anyway?

Most -trial- players are. Most -dungeon- players dont because even when they do it in trials the trial loot barely makes up the cost for the potions themselves.

Have you ever done DPS with below 300 CP? I have, several times on new characters to play around with, before I remembered I didn't put in CP. It was signifigantly harder, and with the hits to sustain allready? The resource drain mechanics? Resource gen was allready buggered with the current costs, now?

Something has to give. It does not matter whether or not it is the costs being reduced wholesale (Which I wouldn't mind as a balance) or cost reduction enchants geting buffed (Also something I wouldn't mind) but the cost has to be paid somewhere. I'm not opposed to a numbercrunch. I'm opposed to the slipshot, bandaid, not given enough thought solutions ZOS is notorious for by this point.

This has been the players biggest problem with this dev team. They shoehorn us into a particular build style, glass cannon builds that can barely sustain themselves, design the content around that, then slowly undermine our ability to do that. That's our problem. Now they've moved onto stage three and it threatenes to do more damage to the game as a whole then their willing to admit to themselves. They did it with Tanking, up through around the current patch. Now their moving onto DPS, and once their done crippling that, you -wont- be able to just not run tanks anymore. You wont be able to run anymore.

It stems from the fact ZOS has no -plan- for this game. No idea of where they want the balance to be. They've largely let the players balance the system then met quota's after the fact, it all reeks of a unorganized bumbling that the current dev team is known for. I've been with the game proper since Tamriel Unlimited. I have slowly seen the original teams work erroded, and then the consequences handled poorly. I have no doubt that if this game dies, it will be because of the incompitence of the current team, and I am under no illusions as to the damage they can cause to the system.

You know what I remember from the tanking change patch...
People yelling tanking will be ruined. Others saying it is a good change because you have to actually start ton use some strategy with a tank so l2p.

You know what happened, the patch dropped and what do you know, people learned to play. They figured out how to tank better and more efficiently.

Same thing here. More resource management rather than just a constant dump of skills while running bis damage sets, damage mundus, damage, glyphs etc. No thoughts given to sustain.

I remember it very differently.

I remember near everyone reviling the change to remove blocking regen and saying it limited tanking to a support roll that was barely needed. Half the reason tanks pulled their weight was other contributions, and said changes made it harder.

This will do the same thing. It does not kill, it limits, in a game ment to emphasize choice.

Well that is because you remember what you want to. It was about a 50/50 split here on the forums for the change. I also saw the same split among my guilds and firends. I for one thought it was a great change.

Limited the tank??? it opened up the tank role and forced them to be actually activley involved in the fight rather than hold block 24/7 and call it a day. killed tank diversity???? really???? do you even remember how boring it was??? Made even worse when we didnt have the gear diversity we have now.

This whole idea that the change will kill diversity is a joke. Especially when people just run BIS in content where gear actually matters and is not easy mode every time you step into it. WHich is very hard to get these days. There are so many et combonations that open up diversity these days. You dont need cp for it. IN fact, cp has ruined diversity. It killed hybrid builds because of how you have to stack your stats into one thing. Pre-cp with soft caps combined with gear choice we have now would be the best diversity possibilities this game has seen.

BohnT wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

kalimar44 wrote: »

I've been playing MMOs since Ultima online 25 years ago, and devs just can't leave *** alone. They keep nerfing a game until you don't even recognize it anymore. I'm so dam tired of this.

techinically they buffed it with cp to where we dont recognize it anymore. Getting rid of cp is the real answer. but we know that wont happen.

No if you remove cp at this point the game will be completely unplayable until they balance every little thing to the changes and that takes months.
They just have to balance the cp better.

cp will never be balanced. they will just keep increasing the cap which furthers the problems cp bring and then put another band aid fix out. rinse and repeat.

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

kalimar44 wrote: »

I've been playing MMOs since Ultima online 25 years ago, and devs just can't leave *** alone. They keep nerfing a game until you don't even recognize it anymore. I'm so dam tired of this.

techinically they buffed it with cp to where we dont recognize it anymore. Getting rid of cp is the real answer. but we know that wont happen.

If they remove CP I will leave the game. There would be absolutely no progression system. It would make the game very shallow and short lived.

AT some point progression should end. It should not be every ending progression. It should have a stopping point and then that is when you do your end game content. You progress by doing end game and getting better at it. you progress by getting your gear and achievements. You progress by levling up all skill lines etc.

but it really doesnt matter. cp is not going anywhere. i know this. IMO they need to just cap all stars at like 5% at 100 points into the star you get 5% increase. not enough to break the game, but enough to supplement a build with specific choices rather than having your points everywhere. It would also keep progression in the game without making it crazy.

Alcast wrote: »

@Uriel_Nocturne I do agree, that it is not good taking away power from players. Same issue happened when the CP system was introduced. people lost power (they just didnt realize yet they were gonna be stronger afterwards) and QQ was raining down in the forums.
I speak from experience, I was really good at QQing on the forums in my first year

1.ANY Player does not like to loose power. No matter what game they play.
2. Forum does not represent the playerbase at all. When do you go to forums? You go there when you have to complain about something. If you are happy why would you bother? (Sure there is a small percentage that actually wants to talk about mechanics etc).
3. The Players that aactually care about changes are a small minority, the game is full of casuals which most likely will not even feel the difference.

However, I do think IF CHANGES SHOULD HAPPEN, then now is the right time. BEFORE Morrowind releases. Because there will be a lot of new players. Morrowind will make or break this game. So I really hope ZOS fixes the biggest issues....

And again, I am all for nerfing this monkey Championpoint system. They are going into the right direction. Still needs more nerfing.

WHY for gods sake does extra CP give you more resources?! Remove that *** its way too OP. @ZOS_RichLambert

I am all for that people actually have to turn on the switch in their brains again and L2P once more in this game.

[Edit for profanity]

@Alcast A couple of things:

1) I fully read your post, and while I see where you are coming from, I completely disagree with you on how the CP system is "supposed to work".

2) For all of your thoughts, this change (removing the sustain node and cost reduction node) will actually hit lower CP players just as hard as it does the top 1% of players (end-game-level Players). The sustain and cost reduction nodes scale by percentiles (as I know you are aware), so any removal/change like this will hit even the Silent Casual just as hard as it does say... the Streamers and "Elites" who run nothing but end-game level content (Trials, VMA, VDSA).

3) These changes, if made without reducing the base cost of Magicka abilities by 15-16%, while reducing the resource regeneration, will destroy most every Magicka build in the game.

4) Because of #3, most of those Silent Casual players will suddenly have their (most likely) one and only character no longer viable. They're cost of abilities will go up significantly, especially when Spam Skills are taken into consideration. Their Magicka pools will run out faster, and will return to them slower. They're going to find themselves in content that they could make it through before the patch, but now cannot complete after the patch for the simple fact that they're running out of resources too fast and it takes longer for them to return.

These players aren't going to "L2P" or flip any switch in their brains. They don't cruise through Streams or Build Guides like you provide. Hell, they probably don't even know about 75% of the crafting stations and Sets in the game, and they definitely don't know about how the Monster Drop Sets work or would want to grind out the countless hours to get any of it like you or I would, even though those Sets may/may not mitigate the effects of the change.

If this change goes through, the vast majority of the player base will suddenly find that their one and only character simply cannot complete challenges one day, that they could the previous day.

But you are right about one thing: the Silent Casual won't care. They won't follow your suggestions, indeed they will most likely never visit your Streams for you to peddle an elitist viewpoint on how the game "should be played".

They'll see that their character no longer works. There won't be a readily-available, quick fix to restore their character's potency, and they'll simply quit and go play something else.

Because like most every other Streamer and Forum user, you're taking a position that the fixes to cope with this are "obvious", and for the level of content that you run, getting the correct set of gear that coordinates well with pieces from other Sets, are easy to regain/acquire.

But the level of content that you and I run every day, the level of content that you and I find to be easy, that content is (and will most likely always be) far out of reach of the vast majority of players. They simply will never have access to the fixes that you're suggesting and promoting.

And that's where your entire argument breaks down. Your suggestions are a fine workaround for the <5% that run end-game content, and for that top 5% of the playing populace, your suggestions might/might not work. But for the rest of the player base, the Silent Casual, this will be an insurmountable change. It will be insurmountable for them, the game will become magnitudes more difficult, and they'll leave.

Because while you or I have countless hours to grind away at this game, and some of the players have found a way to make this game (and other games) their careers; the vast, vast majority of players just use this game as an escape and come here to have fun. Not to have epic-frustration-levels of difficulty. The game will no longer make their characters effective to cruise through PvE content, and those players will leave.

So while your suggestions and those proto-change to the CP constellations might be workable for the 5% of players at end-game, it will only serve to drive away armies worth of Casual Players. It will not spark that desire for them to grind away and "L2P", it will spark a desire for them to go and play a game where their characters still feel remotely powerful.

And that will only be horrifically damaging to this MMO.

Minalan wrote: »

I'm okay with the change, and I've already got a way to work around having less sustain.

I strongly believe block cost CP should get a nerf to go with it, blowing my Magicka pool on someone blocking should drain both of our resources. Not just mine. Fair is fair, a one click "scotch tape the mouse button down" defense shouldn't be that much stronger.

I also hope that they just nerf the cost CP instead of eliminating it entirely. Say, 10-12% instead of 25%? Removing it is a little too drastic, but a nerf of some kind is definitely called for.

Look, I understand god-mode sustain is a problem in this game, and that battlegrounds just WONT work with some of the cancer builds out there. I think you need to take a hard look at some of the available sets first.

@Minalan , the longer you hold, the more expensive it (block cost) becomes and the lower your follow up regen becomes.

A block cooldown/penalty, if you will. There needs to be an opening somewhere in there.

They do it for roll dodge and skills like streak, why not for block?

There should be no such thing as a permablock build. There should be some kind of recover time requried.