Warlord and Magician CP being removed in Morrowind

bowmanz607 · March 2017

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

@Uriel_Nocturne I do agree, that it is not good taking away power from players. Same issue happened when the CP system was introduced. people lost power (they just didnt realize yet they were gonna be stronger afterwards) and QQ was raining down in the forums.
I speak from experience, I was really good at QQing on the forums in my first year

1.ANY Player does not like to loose power. No matter what game they play.
2. Forum does not represent the playerbase at all. When do you go to forums? You go there when you have to complain about something. If you are happy why would you bother? (Sure there is a small percentage that actually wants to talk about mechanics etc).
3. The Players that aactually care about changes are a small minority, the game is full of casuals which most likely will not even feel the difference.

However, I do think IF CHANGES SHOULD HAPPEN, then now is the right time. BEFORE Morrowind releases. Because there will be a lot of new players. Morrowind will make or break this game. So I really hope ZOS fixes the biggest issues....

And again, I am all for nerfing this monkey Championpoint system. They are going into the right direction. Still needs more nerfing.

WHY for gods sake does extra CP give you more resources?! Remove that *** its way too OP. @ZOS_RichLambert

I am all for that people actually have to turn on the switch in their brains again and L2P once more in this game.

[Edit for profanity]

@Alcast A couple of things:

1) I fully read your post, and while I see where you are coming from, I completely disagree with you on how the CP system is "supposed to work".

2) For all of your thoughts, this change (removing the sustain node and cost reduction node) will actually hit lower CP players just as hard as it does the top 1% of players (end-game-level Players). The sustain and cost reduction nodes scale by percentiles (as I know you are aware), so any removal/change like this will hit even the Silent Casual just as hard as it does say... the Streamers and "Elites" who run nothing but end-game level content (Trials, VMA, VDSA).

3) These changes, if made without reducing the base cost of Magicka abilities by 15-16%, while reducing the resource regeneration, will destroy most every Magicka build in the game.

4) Because of #3, most of those Silent Casual players will suddenly have their (most likely) one and only character no longer viable. They're cost of abilities will go up significantly, especially when Spam Skills are taken into consideration. Their Magicka pools will run out faster, and will return to them slower. They're going to find themselves in content that they could make it through before the patch, but now cannot complete after the patch for the simple fact that they're running out of resources too fast and it takes longer for them to return.

These players aren't going to "L2P" or flip any switch in their brains. They don't cruise through Streams or Build Guides like you provide. Hell, they probably don't even know about 75% of the crafting stations and Sets in the game, and they definitely don't know about how the Monster Drop Sets work or would want to grind out the countless hours to get any of it like you or I would, even though those Sets may/may not mitigate the effects of the change.

If this change goes through, the vast majority of the player base will suddenly find that their one and only character simply cannot complete challenges one day, that they could the previous day.

But you are right about one thing: the Silent Casual won't care. They won't follow your suggestions, indeed they will most likely never visit your Streams for you to peddle an elitist viewpoint on how the game "should be played".

They'll see that their character no longer works. There won't be a readily-available, quick fix to restore their character's potency, and they'll simply quit and go play something else.

Because like most every other Streamer and Forum user, you're taking a position that the fixes to cope with this are "obvious", and for the level of content that you run, getting the correct set of gear that coordinates well with pieces from other Sets, are easy to regain/acquire.

But the level of content that you and I run every day, the level of content that you and I find to be easy, that content is (and will most likely always be) far out of reach of the vast majority of players. They simply will never have access to the fixes that you're suggesting and promoting.

And that's where your entire argument breaks down. Your suggestions are a fine workaround for the <5% that run end-game content, and for that top 5% of the playing populace, your suggestions might/might not work. But for the rest of the player base, the Silent Casual, this will be an insurmountable change. It will be insurmountable for them, the game will become magnitudes more difficult, and they'll leave.

Because while you or I have countless hours to grind away at this game, and some of the players have found a way to make this game (and other games) their careers; the vast, vast majority of players just use this game as an escape and come here to have fun. Not to have epic-frustration-levels of difficulty. The game will no longer make their characters effective to cruise through PvE content, and those players will leave.

So while your suggestions and those proto-change to the CP constellations might be workable for the 5% of players at end-game, it will only serve to drive away armies worth of Casual Players. It will not spark that desire for them to grind away and "L2P", it will spark a desire for them to go and play a game where their characters still feel remotely powerful.

And that will only be horrifically damaging to this MMO.

I read your whole post.

I'm sorry but if a player who jumps into a new game does not know how the game works or just refuses to learn the mechanics and the things they need to get better, then that is on them. The casual content is easy enough that even for casuals with ridiculous builds can spam snipe to get through haha.

Your position rests upon the assumption that casuals don't know how to get better at a game and will.simply leave instead of getting better. I don't believe that is a correct assumptions for most casuals. Most casuals are willing to learn and get better and actually want to, they just need people to teach theme.

This was my first mmo ever. I am a Tes fan and why I got into this. The first year of this game I didn't know about weaving/animation canceling. I mained bow in dungeons as a stam.nb. as you will recall a stam player and a nb for much of first year was trash. I didn't even know about food or drink. Yet I was still able.to do all most content in the game. Then one day a friend in gAmerica taught me all of these things. I learned at got way way better to where I am very very good now. I now pass that knowledge along to new players who soak it up like a sponge.

You make the point that casuals don't play the end get stuff that many of us here do. That they simply will not be good enough to access the content we run. So if this is the, then how will this effect them? The stuff they do play is very easy to where I have been with players in dungeons who spam snipe no problem and that is it through whole dungeon. So what this will do for casuals is make those really easy dungeons they do run a bit harder. Not enough to make them quit, enough to make them think more and ask questions because despite your position, people want to get better before they decide to quit.

Then there are casuals that just run overland content and quest. The easiest content in game. This change is not going to make people so bad at overland content that they quit. See my scenario above. You can walk through the overland content with any build and win.

A game is not about being able to just run through it without thinking about how gear, stats, skills, etc. What player gets into a game thinking we'll if I can't just walk through this content without learning how to play the game then I quit????? When did this mentality start??? You can't blame a game for being too hard if your unwilling to learn how to play the game. You have no right to complain about it. I mean just think about that for a second. Hey guys your game is too hard so I quit make it easier. What was too hard? Oh well I can't really tell you because I never learned how to play the game. ????? You want to balance around that type of player???? I don't think so.

GreatGildersleeve · March 2017

Just a guess but you guys don't tank do you? Permablock isn't a thing anymore thanks to 0 regen while blocking.

BohnT · March 2017

GreatGildersleeve wrote: »

Just a guess but you guys don't tank do you? Permablock isn't a thing anymore thanks to 0 regen while blocking.

Guess you haven't been in cyro the last few months. There are some people who block for hours against a whole zerg

gard · March 2017

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

Soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, and soft caps.

Oh, did I mention soft caps?

softcaps are the worst thing that could happen to ESO right now. Literally kills build and class diversity.

You mean like how soft caps allowed hybrid builds and other novel build styles without completely gimping you for not just building in the direction of min maxing stat/dmg/crit/pen?

Yeah, soft caps totally kill diversity

You want to run a sucky build but make it so that other, better thought out builds can't outperform you.

Novel build types == gimp (most of the time but not always)
Soft caps == gimp everyone to the same level of mediocrity.

Paincake · March 2017

JinMori wrote: »

This is trash. They replaced useful cp, with a break free cost reduction which we already had, and a cp that is useless in pve, but cancerous in pvp. Really bad. I hope that they revert this, or at least compensate it with changes to some abilities.
Without those two how are we supposed to sustain on a trial boss?? With 600 cp many classes drain 1600 magicka per second (mag dk, sorc and nightblade)! How are we supposed to sustain on a stam templar? These changes are ***. And you can tell that these changes were made purely for pvp, because only in pvp those 2 cp cause problems. Just separate the two already.

This. This is just another in a long line of games that got ruined because they tried to balance PVE around PVP.

However, does anyone think this might be a back-handed answer to animation cancelling of sorts? In other words, "We don't want you spending 1,600 resource per second, but if you do, you'll run dry in no time!"

bowmanz607 · March 2017

gard wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

Soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, and soft caps.

Oh, did I mention soft caps?

softcaps are the worst thing that could happen to ESO right now. Literally kills build and class diversity.

You mean like how soft caps allowed hybrid builds and other novel build styles without completely gimping you for not just building in the direction of min maxing stat/dmg/crit/pen?

Yeah, soft caps totally kill diversity

You want to run a sucky build but make it so that other, better thought out builds can't outperform you.

Novel build types == gimp (most of the time but not always)
Soft caps == gimp everyone to the same level of mediocrity.

No soft caps forces players to decide more on what to do. To use more skill based mechanics and builds. There was no do i5 all builds. You saw many more gear set, weapon combis, skill combo's etc with aoftcaps. Something that would be even more prevalent today because of how many more gear sets there are. Soft caps kept balance.

Joy_Division · March 2017

BohnT wrote: »

GreatGildersleeve wrote: »

Just a guess but you guys don't tank do you? Permablock isn't a thing anymore thanks to 0 regen while blocking.

Guess you haven't been in cyro the last few months. There are some people who block for hours against a whole zerg

Who cares? Those builds can't kill anything and just attract PuG aggro. Or are you one of the PuGs who keep mashing your buttons trying to kill them?

bowmanz607 · March 2017

BohnT wrote: »

GreatGildersleeve wrote: »

Just a guess but you guys don't tank do you? Permablock isn't a thing anymore thanks to 0 regen while blocking.

Guess you haven't been in cyro the last few months. There are some people who block for hours against a whole zerg

Yah but you have to build for that kind of blocking now. Before change every one hand shield builds could block for days.

josh.lackey_ESO · March 2017

BohnT wrote: »

GreatGildersleeve wrote: »

Just a guess but you guys don't tank do you? Permablock isn't a thing anymore thanks to 0 regen while blocking.

Guess you haven't been in cyro the last few months. There are some people who block for hours against a whole zerg

Not if you siege them. You can't block siege. Kills me when you have 10 people fighting one guy around a tree, but none of them have the sense to lay down a ballista.

wazzz56 · March 2017

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

wazzz56 wrote: »

The only place on earth with more salty , butt hurt people would have to be a colonoscopy clinic at the bottom of the dead sea....These are proposed changes to an already broken cp system..yes, it would require some change to play style IF they are actually put into place...IF being the key word...

It's not an if, this was at Pax which means it's already on the developers team putting in on PTS since morrowind is less than 3 months out.

They aren't changing this planning with a short window frame like that.

This is literally how every Pax meeting has gone where it shows to PTS and it goes live, is broken even though EVERYONE gave feedback in PTS that it had issues and STILL went live.

That's not butt hurt. That is called trend.

No, It is an if until it is in the game....Just because a change is proposed it does not mean it is set it stone at this point..I get what you are saying, what I am saying is we still have PTS to get through and any tweeks that come after that.....and yes, this is salt and butthurtedness...if the change does take place, do what you did after every other "sky is falling" change that has happened, adapt .

FlyLionel · March 2017

GreatGildersleeve wrote: »

Just a guess but you guys don't tank do you? Permablock isn't a thing anymore thanks to 0 regen while blocking.

Blood spawn ult regeneration + Tavas = a lot of ults = free resources for DK ? Plus pots?...And that's just solo, in a group where your healer is a Templar; free shards? Just a guess but maybe you're talking about literally standing there holding block without zero intention of staying alive? Than yes solo/group if you aren't using synergies clearly that won't keep you up. And if you aren't using a dk to tank than yes, it will be more difficult. But tanks have evolved from just standing and blocking, buffing the group and heavy attack weaving crusher enchant and being the last one standing.

Edit: I'm speaking about pve obviously, I doubt anyone is pvp stands and just holds block. They are probably keen on continuously blocking so they keep their resources up in many ways. In some form there is 'permablock' just not standing and holding block infinite, everyone knows you can cast abilities while blocking.

zaria · March 2017

Paincake wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

This is trash. They replaced useful cp, with a break free cost reduction which we already had, and a cp that is useless in pve, but cancerous in pvp. Really bad. I hope that they revert this, or at least compensate it with changes to some abilities.
Without those two how are we supposed to sustain on a trial boss?? With 600 cp many classes drain 1600 magicka per second (mag dk, sorc and nightblade)! How are we supposed to sustain on a stam templar? These changes are ***. And you can tell that these changes were made purely for pvp, because only in pvp those 2 cp cause problems. Just separate the two already.

This. This is just another in a long line of games that got ruined because they tried to balance PVE around PVP.

However, does anyone think this might be a back-handed answer to animation cancelling of sorts? In other words, "We don't want you spending 1,600 resource per second, but if you do, you'll run dry in no time!"

Animation canceling let you add cheap light attacks and cheap bar swaps, it does not let you spam skills faster.

bunnydaisuki · March 2017

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

@Uriel_Nocturne I do agree, that it is not good taking away power from players. Same issue happened when the CP system was introduced. people lost power (they just didnt realize yet they were gonna be stronger afterwards) and QQ was raining down in the forums.
I speak from experience, I was really good at QQing on the forums in my first year

1.ANY Player does not like to loose power. No matter what game they play.
2. Forum does not represent the playerbase at all. When do you go to forums? You go there when you have to complain about something. If you are happy why would you bother? (Sure there is a small percentage that actually wants to talk about mechanics etc).
3. The Players that aactually care about changes are a small minority, the game is full of casuals which most likely will not even feel the difference.

However, I do think IF CHANGES SHOULD HAPPEN, then now is the right time. BEFORE Morrowind releases. Because there will be a lot of new players. Morrowind will make or break this game. So I really hope ZOS fixes the biggest issues....

And again, I am all for nerfing this monkey Championpoint system. They are going into the right direction. Still needs more nerfing.

WHY for gods sake does extra CP give you more resources?! Remove that *** its way too OP. @ZOS_RichLambert

I am all for that people actually have to turn on the switch in their brains again and L2P once more in this game.

[Edit for profanity]

@Alcast A couple of things:

1) I fully read your post, and while I see where you are coming from, I completely disagree with you on how the CP system is "supposed to work".

2) For all of your thoughts, this change (removing the sustain node and cost reduction node) will actually hit lower CP players just as hard as it does the top 1% of players (end-game-level Players). The sustain and cost reduction nodes scale by percentiles (as I know you are aware), so any removal/change like this will hit even the Silent Casual just as hard as it does say... the Streamers and "Elites" who run nothing but end-game level content (Trials, VMA, VDSA).

3) These changes, if made without reducing the base cost of Magicka abilities by 15-16%, while reducing the resource regeneration, will destroy most every Magicka build in the game.

4) Because of #3, most of those Silent Casual players will suddenly have their (most likely) one and only character no longer viable. They're cost of abilities will go up significantly, especially when Spam Skills are taken into consideration. Their Magicka pools will run out faster, and will return to them slower. They're going to find themselves in content that they could make it through before the patch, but now cannot complete after the patch for the simple fact that they're running out of resources too fast and it takes longer for them to return.

These players aren't going to "L2P" or flip any switch in their brains. They don't cruise through Streams or Build Guides like you provide. Hell, they probably don't even know about 75% of the crafting stations and Sets in the game, and they definitely don't know about how the Monster Drop Sets work or would want to grind out the countless hours to get any of it like you or I would, even though those Sets may/may not mitigate the effects of the change.

If this change goes through, the vast majority of the player base will suddenly find that their one and only character simply cannot complete challenges one day, that they could the previous day.

But you are right about one thing: the Silent Casual won't care. They won't follow your suggestions, indeed they will most likely never visit your Streams for you to peddle an elitist viewpoint on how the game "should be played".

They'll see that their character no longer works. There won't be a readily-available, quick fix to restore their character's potency, and they'll simply quit and go play something else.

Because like most every other Streamer and Forum user, you're taking a position that the fixes to cope with this are "obvious", and for the level of content that you run, getting the correct set of gear that coordinates well with pieces from other Sets, are easy to regain/acquire.

But the level of content that you and I run every day, the level of content that you and I find to be easy, that content is (and will most likely always be) far out of reach of the vast majority of players. They simply will never have access to the fixes that you're suggesting and promoting.

And that's where your entire argument breaks down. Your suggestions are a fine workaround for the <5% that run end-game content, and for that top 5% of the playing populace, your suggestions might/might not work. But for the rest of the player base, the Silent Casual, this will be an insurmountable change. It will be insurmountable for them, the game will become magnitudes more difficult, and they'll leave.

Because while you or I have countless hours to grind away at this game, and some of the players have found a way to make this game (and other games) their careers; the vast, vast majority of players just use this game as an escape and come here to have fun. Not to have epic-frustration-levels of difficulty. The game will no longer make their characters effective to cruise through PvE content, and those players will leave.

So while your suggestions and those proto-change to the CP constellations might be workable for the 5% of players at end-game, it will only serve to drive away armies worth of Casual Players. It will not spark that desire for them to grind away and "L2P", it will spark a desire for them to go and play a game where their characters still feel remotely powerful.

And that will only be horrifically damaging to this MMO.

Speaking from my experience, I have to agree with this. I started out this game as a filthy casual with a bunch of friends. None of us would care to look at any other player's streams or guides. BiS? Animation cancelling? No constant button spamming abilities? What are those? None of us couldn't care less.

When the game comes down hard on us, everyone left, except for me. I guess I'm the odd one out, because I took the initiative to grind, learn, and gitgud; I've managed to adapt and constantly trying to improve myself along the patches and changes. Applying the same mentality of my friends to the rest of the casual players, I think this is not going to end well for the community, though I hope I'm wrong in this.

I'm all for changes, as long it doesn't break the game as a whole. But, if this is going make life extremely hard for everyone, especially for the casual players, I'd be genuinely concerned about the changes.

Uriel_Nocturne · March 2017

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

@Uriel_Nocturne I do agree, that it is not good taking away power from players. Same issue happened when the CP system was introduced. people lost power (they just didnt realize yet they were gonna be stronger afterwards) and QQ was raining down in the forums.
I speak from experience, I was really good at QQing on the forums in my first year

1.ANY Player does not like to loose power. No matter what game they play.
2. Forum does not represent the playerbase at all. When do you go to forums? You go there when you have to complain about something. If you are happy why would you bother? (Sure there is a small percentage that actually wants to talk about mechanics etc).
3. The Players that aactually care about changes are a small minority, the game is full of casuals which most likely will not even feel the difference.

However, I do think IF CHANGES SHOULD HAPPEN, then now is the right time. BEFORE Morrowind releases. Because there will be a lot of new players. Morrowind will make or break this game. So I really hope ZOS fixes the biggest issues....

And again, I am all for nerfing this monkey Championpoint system. They are going into the right direction. Still needs more nerfing.

WHY for gods sake does extra CP give you more resources?! Remove that *** its way too OP. @ZOS_RichLambert

I am all for that people actually have to turn on the switch in their brains again and L2P once more in this game.

[Edit for profanity]

@Alcast A couple of things:

1) I fully read your post, and while I see where you are coming from, I completely disagree with you on how the CP system is "supposed to work".

2) For all of your thoughts, this change (removing the sustain node and cost reduction node) will actually hit lower CP players just as hard as it does the top 1% of players (end-game-level Players). The sustain and cost reduction nodes scale by percentiles (as I know you are aware), so any removal/change like this will hit even the Silent Casual just as hard as it does say... the Streamers and "Elites" who run nothing but end-game level content (Trials, VMA, VDSA).

3) These changes, if made without reducing the base cost of Magicka abilities by 15-16%, while reducing the resource regeneration, will destroy most every Magicka build in the game.

4) Because of #3, most of those Silent Casual players will suddenly have their (most likely) one and only character no longer viable. They're cost of abilities will go up significantly, especially when Spam Skills are taken into consideration. Their Magicka pools will run out faster, and will return to them slower. They're going to find themselves in content that they could make it through before the patch, but now cannot complete after the patch for the simple fact that they're running out of resources too fast and it takes longer for them to return.

These players aren't going to "L2P" or flip any switch in their brains. They don't cruise through Streams or Build Guides like you provide. Hell, they probably don't even know about 75% of the crafting stations and Sets in the game, and they definitely don't know about how the Monster Drop Sets work or would want to grind out the countless hours to get any of it like you or I would, even though those Sets may/may not mitigate the effects of the change.

If this change goes through, the vast majority of the player base will suddenly find that their one and only character simply cannot complete challenges one day, that they could the previous day.

But you are right about one thing: the Silent Casual won't care. They won't follow your suggestions, indeed they will most likely never visit your Streams for you to peddle an elitist viewpoint on how the game "should be played".

They'll see that their character no longer works. There won't be a readily-available, quick fix to restore their character's potency, and they'll simply quit and go play something else.

Because like most every other Streamer and Forum user, you're taking a position that the fixes to cope with this are "obvious", and for the level of content that you run, getting the correct set of gear that coordinates well with pieces from other Sets, are easy to regain/acquire.

But the level of content that you and I run every day, the level of content that you and I find to be easy, that content is (and will most likely always be) far out of reach of the vast majority of players. They simply will never have access to the fixes that you're suggesting and promoting.

And that's where your entire argument breaks down. Your suggestions are a fine workaround for the <5% that run end-game content, and for that top 5% of the playing populace, your suggestions might/might not work. But for the rest of the player base, the Silent Casual, this will be an insurmountable change. It will be insurmountable for them, the game will become magnitudes more difficult, and they'll leave.

Because while you or I have countless hours to grind away at this game, and some of the players have found a way to make this game (and other games) their careers; the vast, vast majority of players just use this game as an escape and come here to have fun. Not to have epic-frustration-levels of difficulty. The game will no longer make their characters effective to cruise through PvE content, and those players will leave.

So while your suggestions and those proto-change to the CP constellations might be workable for the 5% of players at end-game, it will only serve to drive away armies worth of Casual Players. It will not spark that desire for them to grind away and "L2P", it will spark a desire for them to go and play a game where their characters still feel remotely powerful.

And that will only be horrifically damaging to this MMO.

I read your whole post.

I'm sorry but if a player who jumps into a new game does not know how the game works or just refuses to learn the mechanics and the things they need to get better, then that is on them. The casual content is easy enough that even for casuals with ridiculous builds can spam snipe to get through haha.

Your position rests upon the assumption that casuals don't know how to get better at a game and will.simply leave instead of getting better. I don't believe that is a correct assumptions for most casuals. Most casuals are willing to learn and get better and actually want to, they just need people to teach theme.

This was my first mmo ever. I am a Tes fan and why I got into this. The first year of this game I didn't know about weaving/animation canceling. I mained bow in dungeons as a stam.nb. as you will recall a stam player and a nb for much of first year was trash. I didn't even know about food or drink. Yet I was still able.to do all most content in the game. Then one day a friend in gAmerica taught me all of these things. I learned at got way way better to where I am very very good now. I now pass that knowledge along to new players who soak it up like a sponge.

You make the point that casuals don't play the end get stuff that many of us here do. That they simply will not be good enough to access the content we run. So if this is the, then how will this effect them? The stuff they do play is very easy to where I have been with players in dungeons who spam snipe no problem and that is it through whole dungeon. So what this will do for casuals is make those really easy dungeons they do run a bit harder. Not enough to make them quit, enough to make them think more and ask questions because despite your position, people want to get better before they decide to quit.

Then there are casuals that just run overland content and quest. The easiest content in game. This change is not going to make people so bad at overland content that they quit. See my scenario above. You can walk through the overland content with any build and win.

A game is not about being able to just run through it without thinking about how gear, stats, skills, etc. What player gets into a game thinking we'll if I can't just walk through this content without learning how to play the game then I quit????? When did this mentality start??? You can't blame a game for being too hard if your unwilling to learn how to play the game. You have no right to complain about it. I mean just think about that for a second. Hey guys your game is too hard so I quit make it easier. What was too hard? Oh well I can't really tell you because I never learned how to play the game. ????? You want to balance around that type of player???? I don't think so.

@bowmanz607 And I read your whole post, and you missed the mark just by a bit.

You've oversimplified the argument, and become lost in the same mentality that @Alcast has.

It's not that the Silent Casual majority simply doesn't know how to get better at the game, it's that their version of "getting better" is very different from what you or I view as getting better.

As I said in my most recent post; they play the game, they try out different Skills, they try out different equipment from drops and what rafting stations that they find in the wilderness, and they find something that works to get them through the content and allows them to just play the game. Just being allowed to play the game, at a mildly challenging level of difficulty, but that they can move through with only a small bit of effort; that is what the Silent Casual is looking for. I'll say it again; video games in general, and MMORPG's as a whole genre are an escape for them. The Casual majority doesn't wan tsoul-crushing challenge like the end-game player wants.

You, I, and the Streamers (as well as the rest of the Hardcore players) view "getting better" as being able to run through the hardest content in the game. If our DPS/Sustain/Healing/tanking aren't putting out the numbers we need, we grind through to get the BiS gear, and we min/max until we have the toughest builds in the game. That is how we view "getting better".

It's not that the Silent Casual doesn't have a desire to get better, it's that what "getting better" means that is important.

Again, as I replied to for Alcast; removing the resource regen CP node and changing/removing the sustain node for Magicka users will make those Magicka builds for the Silent Casual just as worthless for them, as it does for us at the end-game level. But where that drives us end-gamer's to find a way around it, and it drives us to get the newer/better BiS gear to compensate, the Casual majority Player will simply see that their Magicka character no longer works, they'll see the task of rebuilding and reallocating Skillpoints, and the task of re-grinding or creating new gear, just on the notion that this might bring back a small level of viability to their characters, and they won't want to do it.

The game (again) is an escape for them, and having to go through all of that to make their character even partially work the way it did before the change, will not spark them to start grinding out like the end-game Player does. It will only spark a desire to find a game that hasn't arbitrarily gimped their characters, a game that allows them to just play and not have to worry about grinding out the best gear in the game just to be able to play.

As far as your question about "where" this mentality comes from; it's always been there since MMORPG's first emerged as their own genre.

You have the small, niche minority of players that race to end-game and fight and scrape to stay there, then you have the vast majority of... everyone else that just wants to log-in and run around in a fantasy world for a bit to forget the troubles of their real-life day.

And ever since MMO's emerged as their own genre; those players have ditched MMORPG's en masse once changes were made that arbitrarily increased the games base difficulty above the level of casual-play (like this proto-change to the CP constellations would do). Again; it's not that the Casual doesn't want to get better, it's that "getting better" has two very different meanings for Casual Players and End-game "Elite" Players.

wazzz56 · March 2017

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

GreatGildersleeve wrote: »

Just a guess but you guys don't tank do you? Permablock isn't a thing anymore thanks to 0 regen while blocking.

Guess you haven't been in cyro the last few months. There are some people who block for hours against a whole zerg

Not if you siege them. You can't block siege. Kills me when you have 10 people fighting one guy around a tree, but none of them have the sense to lay down a ballista.

not putting down a ballista is what kills you about 10 people fighting 1 person around a tree? hmmmm lol

Oompuh · March 2017

GreatGildersleeve wrote: »

Just a guess but you guys don't tank do you? Permablock isn't a thing anymore thanks to 0 regen while blocking.

I tank and permablock? Not sure what you're talking about

Minalan · March 2017

psychotic13 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I'm okay with the change, and I've already got a way to work around having less sustain.

I strongly believe block cost CP should get a nerf to go with it, blowing my Magicka pool on someone blocking should drain both of our resources. Not just mine. Fair is fair, a one click "scotch tape the mouse button down" defense shouldn't be that much stronger.

I also hope that they just nerf the cost CP instead of eliminating it entirely. Say, 10-12% instead of 25%? Removing it is a little too drastic, but a nerf of some kind is definitely called for.

Look, I understand god-mode sustain is a problem in this game, and that battlegrounds just WONT work with some of the cancer builds out there. I think you need to take a hard look at some of the available sets first.

@Minalan , the longer you hold, the more expensive it (block cost) becomes and the lower your follow up regen becomes.

A block cooldown/penalty, if you will. There needs to be an opening somewhere in there.

They do it for roll dodge and skills like streak, why not for block?

There should be no such thing as a permablock build. There should be some kind of recover time requried.

Because tanks would be ***, how would you tank a trial

The same way you'll DPS in a trial without sustain.

We'll change our build and do less damage. Adapt.

Oompuh · March 2017

Minalan wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I'm okay with the change, and I've already got a way to work around having less sustain.

I strongly believe block cost CP should get a nerf to go with it, blowing my Magicka pool on someone blocking should drain both of our resources. Not just mine. Fair is fair, a one click "scotch tape the mouse button down" defense shouldn't be that much stronger.

I also hope that they just nerf the cost CP instead of eliminating it entirely. Say, 10-12% instead of 25%? Removing it is a little too drastic, but a nerf of some kind is definitely called for.

Look, I understand god-mode sustain is a problem in this game, and that battlegrounds just WONT work with some of the cancer builds out there. I think you need to take a hard look at some of the available sets first.

@Minalan , the longer you hold, the more expensive it (block cost) becomes and the lower your follow up regen becomes.

A block cooldown/penalty, if you will. There needs to be an opening somewhere in there.

They do it for roll dodge and skills like streak, why not for block?

There should be no such thing as a permablock build. There should be some kind of recover time requried.

Because tanks would be ***, how would you tank a trial

The same way you'll DPS in a trial without sustain.

We'll change our build and do less damage. Adapt.

We don't do damage, we're tanks? We would have to sacrifice support for reducing block cost or stop blocking which would immediately kill us.

Jitterbug · March 2017

Dao_Jones wrote: »

I don't even animation-cancel my attacks.

TequilaFire · March 2017

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

GreatGildersleeve wrote: »

Just a guess but you guys don't tank do you? Permablock isn't a thing anymore thanks to 0 regen while blocking.

Guess you haven't been in cyro the last few months. There are some people who block for hours against a whole zerg

Not if you siege them. You can't block siege. Kills me when you have 10 people fighting one guy around a tree, but none of them have the sense to lay down a ballista.

Those tank builds with their pocket healer just laugh at siege damage anyway.
If you don't have a counter tank in your group who can stay in their face and interrupt their heals and apply draining poisons you should just move on or his buddy bombblade waiting in the wings will wipe your group.

mr_wazzabi · March 2017

Minalan wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I'm okay with the change, and I've already got a way to work around having less sustain.

I strongly believe block cost CP should get a nerf to go with it, blowing my Magicka pool on someone blocking should drain both of our resources. Not just mine. Fair is fair, a one click "scotch tape the mouse button down" defense shouldn't be that much stronger.

I also hope that they just nerf the cost CP instead of eliminating it entirely. Say, 10-12% instead of 25%? Removing it is a little too drastic, but a nerf of some kind is definitely called for.

Look, I understand god-mode sustain is a problem in this game, and that battlegrounds just WONT work with some of the cancer builds out there. I think you need to take a hard look at some of the available sets first.

@Minalan , the longer you hold, the more expensive it (block cost) becomes and the lower your follow up regen becomes.

A block cooldown/penalty, if you will. There needs to be an opening somewhere in there.

They do it for roll dodge and skills like streak, why not for block?

There should be no such thing as a permablock build. There should be some kind of recover time requried.

Because tanks would be ***, how would you tank a trial

The same way you'll DPS in a trial without sustain.

We'll change our build and do less damage. Adapt.

How would you pass an enrage phase with a higher sustain lower damage build? ZOS should just leave cp alone.

psychotic13 · March 2017

Minalan wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I'm okay with the change, and I've already got a way to work around having less sustain.

I strongly believe block cost CP should get a nerf to go with it, blowing my Magicka pool on someone blocking should drain both of our resources. Not just mine. Fair is fair, a one click "scotch tape the mouse button down" defense shouldn't be that much stronger.

I also hope that they just nerf the cost CP instead of eliminating it entirely. Say, 10-12% instead of 25%? Removing it is a little too drastic, but a nerf of some kind is definitely called for.

Look, I understand god-mode sustain is a problem in this game, and that battlegrounds just WONT work with some of the cancer builds out there. I think you need to take a hard look at some of the available sets first.

@Minalan , the longer you hold, the more expensive it (block cost) becomes and the lower your follow up regen becomes.

A block cooldown/penalty, if you will. There needs to be an opening somewhere in there.

They do it for roll dodge and skills like streak, why not for block?

There should be no such thing as a permablock build. There should be some kind of recover time requried.

Because tanks would be ***, how would you tank a trial

The same way you'll DPS in a trial without sustain.

We'll change our build and do less damage. Adapt.

It won't effect trial DPS much at all, my magsorc has 900recovery for PvE, anything higher is really overkill

paulsimonps · March 2017

GreatGildersleeve wrote: »

Just a guess but you guys don't tank do you? Permablock isn't a thing anymore thanks to 0 regen while blocking.

No, its a thing, very much so a thing. Lowest possible block cost is 88 per 0.5s and constitution gives with 7 Heavy 1302 every 4s which equals to 162.75 per 0.5s so yea you can get almost double the stamina back from blocking. However in PvP doing this means you are also gonna do F all damage. But in PvE of course that doesn't matter and perma-blocking on certain bosses is pretty much a must.

bowmanz607 · March 2017

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

@Uriel_Nocturne I do agree, that it is not good taking away power from players. Same issue happened when the CP system was introduced. people lost power (they just didnt realize yet they were gonna be stronger afterwards) and QQ was raining down in the forums.
I speak from experience, I was really good at QQing on the forums in my first year

1.ANY Player does not like to loose power. No matter what game they play.
2. Forum does not represent the playerbase at all. When do you go to forums? You go there when you have to complain about something. If you are happy why would you bother? (Sure there is a small percentage that actually wants to talk about mechanics etc).
3. The Players that aactually care about changes are a small minority, the game is full of casuals which most likely will not even feel the difference.

However, I do think IF CHANGES SHOULD HAPPEN, then now is the right time. BEFORE Morrowind releases. Because there will be a lot of new players. Morrowind will make or break this game. So I really hope ZOS fixes the biggest issues....

And again, I am all for nerfing this monkey Championpoint system. They are going into the right direction. Still needs more nerfing.

WHY for gods sake does extra CP give you more resources?! Remove that *** its way too OP. @ZOS_RichLambert

I am all for that people actually have to turn on the switch in their brains again and L2P once more in this game.

[Edit for profanity]

@Alcast A couple of things:

1) I fully read your post, and while I see where you are coming from, I completely disagree with you on how the CP system is "supposed to work".

2) For all of your thoughts, this change (removing the sustain node and cost reduction node) will actually hit lower CP players just as hard as it does the top 1% of players (end-game-level Players). The sustain and cost reduction nodes scale by percentiles (as I know you are aware), so any removal/change like this will hit even the Silent Casual just as hard as it does say... the Streamers and "Elites" who run nothing but end-game level content (Trials, VMA, VDSA).

3) These changes, if made without reducing the base cost of Magicka abilities by 15-16%, while reducing the resource regeneration, will destroy most every Magicka build in the game.

4) Because of #3, most of those Silent Casual players will suddenly have their (most likely) one and only character no longer viable. They're cost of abilities will go up significantly, especially when Spam Skills are taken into consideration. Their Magicka pools will run out faster, and will return to them slower. They're going to find themselves in content that they could make it through before the patch, but now cannot complete after the patch for the simple fact that they're running out of resources too fast and it takes longer for them to return.

These players aren't going to "L2P" or flip any switch in their brains. They don't cruise through Streams or Build Guides like you provide. Hell, they probably don't even know about 75% of the crafting stations and Sets in the game, and they definitely don't know about how the Monster Drop Sets work or would want to grind out the countless hours to get any of it like you or I would, even though those Sets may/may not mitigate the effects of the change.

If this change goes through, the vast majority of the player base will suddenly find that their one and only character simply cannot complete challenges one day, that they could the previous day.

But you are right about one thing: the Silent Casual won't care. They won't follow your suggestions, indeed they will most likely never visit your Streams for you to peddle an elitist viewpoint on how the game "should be played".

They'll see that their character no longer works. There won't be a readily-available, quick fix to restore their character's potency, and they'll simply quit and go play something else.

Because like most every other Streamer and Forum user, you're taking a position that the fixes to cope with this are "obvious", and for the level of content that you run, getting the correct set of gear that coordinates well with pieces from other Sets, are easy to regain/acquire.

But the level of content that you and I run every day, the level of content that you and I find to be easy, that content is (and will most likely always be) far out of reach of the vast majority of players. They simply will never have access to the fixes that you're suggesting and promoting.

And that's where your entire argument breaks down. Your suggestions are a fine workaround for the <5% that run end-game content, and for that top 5% of the playing populace, your suggestions might/might not work. But for the rest of the player base, the Silent Casual, this will be an insurmountable change. It will be insurmountable for them, the game will become magnitudes more difficult, and they'll leave.

Because while you or I have countless hours to grind away at this game, and some of the players have found a way to make this game (and other games) their careers; the vast, vast majority of players just use this game as an escape and come here to have fun. Not to have epic-frustration-levels of difficulty. The game will no longer make their characters effective to cruise through PvE content, and those players will leave.

So while your suggestions and those proto-change to the CP constellations might be workable for the 5% of players at end-game, it will only serve to drive away armies worth of Casual Players. It will not spark that desire for them to grind away and "L2P", it will spark a desire for them to go and play a game where their characters still feel remotely powerful.

And that will only be horrifically damaging to this MMO.

I read your whole post.

I'm sorry but if a player who jumps into a new game does not know how the game works or just refuses to learn the mechanics and the things they need to get better, then that is on them. The casual content is easy enough that even for casuals with ridiculous builds can spam snipe to get through haha.

Your position rests upon the assumption that casuals don't know how to get better at a game and will.simply leave instead of getting better. I don't believe that is a correct assumptions for most casuals. Most casuals are willing to learn and get better and actually want to, they just need people to teach theme.

This was my first mmo ever. I am a Tes fan and why I got into this. The first year of this game I didn't know about weaving/animation canceling. I mained bow in dungeons as a stam.nb. as you will recall a stam player and a nb for much of first year was trash. I didn't even know about food or drink. Yet I was still able.to do all most content in the game. Then one day a friend in gAmerica taught me all of these things. I learned at got way way better to where I am very very good now. I now pass that knowledge along to new players who soak it up like a sponge.

You make the point that casuals don't play the end get stuff that many of us here do. That they simply will not be good enough to access the content we run. So if this is the, then how will this effect them? The stuff they do play is very easy to where I have been with players in dungeons who spam snipe no problem and that is it through whole dungeon. So what this will do for casuals is make those really easy dungeons they do run a bit harder. Not enough to make them quit, enough to make them think more and ask questions because despite your position, people want to get better before they decide to quit.

Then there are casuals that just run overland content and quest. The easiest content in game. This change is not going to make people so bad at overland content that they quit. See my scenario above. You can walk through the overland content with any build and win.

A game is not about being able to just run through it without thinking about how gear, stats, skills, etc. What player gets into a game thinking we'll if I can't just walk through this content without learning how to play the game then I quit????? When did this mentality start??? You can't blame a game for being too hard if your unwilling to learn how to play the game. You have no right to complain about it. I mean just think about that for a second. Hey guys your game is too hard so I quit make it easier. What was too hard? Oh well I can't really tell you because I never learned how to play the game. ????? You want to balance around that type of player???? I don't think so.

@bowmanz607 And I read your whole post, and you missed the mark just by a bit.

You've oversimplified the argument, and become lost in the same mentality that @Alcast has.

It's not that the Silent Casual majority simply doesn't know how to get better at the game, it's that their version of "getting better" is very different from what you or I view as getting better.

As I said in my most recent post; they play the game, they try out different Skills, they try out different equipment from drops and what rafting stations that they find in the wilderness, and they find something that works to get them through the content and allows them to just play the game. Just being allowed to play the game, at a mildly challenging level of difficulty, but that they can move through with only a small bit of effort; that is what the Silent Casual is looking for. I'll say it again; video games in general, and MMORPG's as a whole genre are an escape for them. The Casual majority doesn't wan tsoul-crushing challenge like the end-game player wants.

You, I, and the Streamers (as well as the rest of the Hardcore players) view "getting better" as being able to run through the hardest content in the game. If our DPS/Sustain/Healing/tanking aren't putting out the numbers we need, we grind through to get the BiS gear, and we min/max until we have the toughest builds in the game. That is how we view "getting better".

It's not that the Silent Casual doesn't have a desire to get better, it's that what "getting better" means that is important.

Again, as I replied to for Alcast; removing the resource regen CP node and changing/removing the sustain node for Magicka users will make those Magicka builds for the Silent Casual just as worthless for them, as it does for us at the end-game level. But where that drives us end-gamer's to find a way around it, and it drives us to get the newer/better BiS gear to compensate, the Casual majority Player will simply see that their Magicka character no longer works, they'll see the task of rebuilding and reallocating Skillpoints, and the task of re-grinding or creating new gear, just on the notion that this might bring back a small level of viability to their characters, and they won't want to do it.

The game (again) is an escape for them, and having to go through all of that to make their character even partially work the way it did before the change, will not spark them to start grinding out like the end-game Player does. It will only spark a desire to find a game that hasn't arbitrarily gimped their characters, a game that allows them to just play and not have to worry about grinding out the best gear in the game just to be able to play.

As far as your question about "where" this mentality comes from; it's always been there since MMORPG's first emerged as their own genre.

You have the small, niche minority of players that race to end-game and fight and scrape to stay there, then you have the vast majority of... everyone else that just wants to log-in and run around in a fantasy world for a bit to forget the troubles of their real-life day.

And ever since MMO's emerged as their own genre; those players have ditched MMORPG's en masse once changes were made that arbitrarily increased the games base difficulty above the level of casual-play (like this proto-change to the CP constellations would do). Again; it's not that the Casual doesn't want to get better, it's that "getting better" has two very different meanings for Casual Players and End-game "Elite" Players.

OK so if I understand you correctly you are simply establishing the difference in "getting better" between players?

You speak of the Silent Casual and how they will just quit rather than grind out new gear, specs etc. Here is the thing. For one, you even stated these players don't grind out gear and so forth to begin with. So the whole concept of they would rather quite than grind doesn't add up. They will just do the same thing. Further, These silent casuals are also the players that will stick to some.overland questing. The easiest content in the game. Content where you don't need to worry about gear or skill combo's or weapon combo's etc. At worst this forces players to think just a tad more about light armor and, gear sets, and food/drink. The most minimal of thought might need to go into these players setups. If a player does not want to take minimal effort into the game to play it rather than mindlessly walking through it, then I say good riddance. These are not the players staying around spending money outside of the initial purchase anyway.

Players doing over land content not being willing to make minimal adjustments is crazy. Further, this is an mmo. It will be ever changing just like every mmo. Balance changes, meta shifts etc. So not making a change because some Silent Casual can't run around with no armor and a death staff to complete content is crazy.

gard · March 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

Dao_Jones wrote: »

I guess I'm actually indifferent to this change, because I don't play at a high enough level where this will ever matter to me.

I'm more annoyed that I came back to the game, and now racials matter. Racials should absolutely NOT matter; something like character appearance should always be driven by player choice - not mandated by the fear of making your character irrelevant for end-game content. That is an absolutely horrible choice ZOS has forced on players. (And one that has no precedent in previous ES games.)

...but that's not really germane to this thread, I guess. (Except that they'll matter even more, if one of the critical sources for resource management will be racial passives. I suppose I'll be glad I picked Breton for my new MagSorc, instead of Dunmer.

Its an MMO of course they are going to matter. And while race didnt "matter" in single player Elder Scrolls games, there was certainly "benefits" to certain races. Altmer and Breton got more Magicka in games. Orcs had that crazy once a day power in Skyrim. So yeah racials should matter. Plus with race change being 3000 crowns its not going away any time soon.

I direct you to WoW, where Racials largely didn't, outside of PVP. And even when it did it was one racial for PVP.

They shouldn't to the point where if you pick a different race you fail. Period.

What content exists that can't be completed by toons of any race?

There isn't any. If someone is failing at <insert activity here>, then the problem lies elsewhere. Race is not enough to significantly affect the chance to succeed or fail any content in this game.

Merlin13KAGL · March 2017

psychotic13 wrote: »

Because tanks would be ***, how would you tank a trial

I suppose you'd have to use one of a dozen other ways to mitigate and you may have to occasionally lower your shield arm.

The whole purpose behind stopping regen when blocking wayyyyyyy back in 1.6 was to promote blocking when needed, not as a full time hobby.

Tanks were tanking then, tanks are tanking now (not everyone runs permablock builds, yet are still able to tank high end content.)

Obviously beyond that, it would have to be balanced. The ability to perma-anything should never be an option, not for roll dodge, sprint, skills, anything.

Ep1kMalware · March 2017

gard wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

Dao_Jones wrote: »

I guess I'm actually indifferent to this change, because I don't play at a high enough level where this will ever matter to me.

I'm more annoyed that I came back to the game, and now racials matter. Racials should absolutely NOT matter; something like character appearance should always be driven by player choice - not mandated by the fear of making your character irrelevant for end-game content. That is an absolutely horrible choice ZOS has forced on players. (And one that has no precedent in previous ES games.)

...but that's not really germane to this thread, I guess. (Except that they'll matter even more, if one of the critical sources for resource management will be racial passives. I suppose I'll be glad I picked Breton for my new MagSorc, instead of Dunmer.

Its an MMO of course they are going to matter. And while race didnt "matter" in single player Elder Scrolls games, there was certainly "benefits" to certain races. Altmer and Breton got more Magicka in games. Orcs had that crazy once a day power in Skyrim. So yeah racials should matter. Plus with race change being 3000 crowns its not going away any time soon.

I direct you to WoW, where Racials largely didn't, outside of PVP. And even when it did it was one racial for PVP.

They shouldn't to the point where if you pick a different race you fail. Period.

What content exists that can't be completed by toons of any race?

There isn't any. If someone is failing at <insert activity here>, then the problem lies elsewhere. Race is not enough to significantly affect the chance to succeed or fail any content in this game.

First time I did vma I dis it on a bosmer stamina templar. Sure there was some l2p involved, but had I been a redguard I could have saved myself 10hrs of agony and just looted the chest.

Sure I do it np at all now, but it did make a huge meaningful difference.

Uriel_Nocturne · March 2017

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

@Uriel_Nocturne I do agree, that it is not good taking away power from players. Same issue happened when the CP system was introduced. people lost power (they just didnt realize yet they were gonna be stronger afterwards) and QQ was raining down in the forums.
I speak from experience, I was really good at QQing on the forums in my first year

1.ANY Player does not like to loose power. No matter what game they play.
2. Forum does not represent the playerbase at all. When do you go to forums? You go there when you have to complain about something. If you are happy why would you bother? (Sure there is a small percentage that actually wants to talk about mechanics etc).
3. The Players that aactually care about changes are a small minority, the game is full of casuals which most likely will not even feel the difference.

However, I do think IF CHANGES SHOULD HAPPEN, then now is the right time. BEFORE Morrowind releases. Because there will be a lot of new players. Morrowind will make or break this game. So I really hope ZOS fixes the biggest issues....

And again, I am all for nerfing this monkey Championpoint system. They are going into the right direction. Still needs more nerfing.

WHY for gods sake does extra CP give you more resources?! Remove that *** its way too OP. @ZOS_RichLambert

I am all for that people actually have to turn on the switch in their brains again and L2P once more in this game.

[Edit for profanity]

@Alcast A couple of things:

1) I fully read your post, and while I see where you are coming from, I completely disagree with you on how the CP system is "supposed to work".

2) For all of your thoughts, this change (removing the sustain node and cost reduction node) will actually hit lower CP players just as hard as it does the top 1% of players (end-game-level Players). The sustain and cost reduction nodes scale by percentiles (as I know you are aware), so any removal/change like this will hit even the Silent Casual just as hard as it does say... the Streamers and "Elites" who run nothing but end-game level content (Trials, VMA, VDSA).

3) These changes, if made without reducing the base cost of Magicka abilities by 15-16%, while reducing the resource regeneration, will destroy most every Magicka build in the game.

4) Because of #3, most of those Silent Casual players will suddenly have their (most likely) one and only character no longer viable. They're cost of abilities will go up significantly, especially when Spam Skills are taken into consideration. Their Magicka pools will run out faster, and will return to them slower. They're going to find themselves in content that they could make it through before the patch, but now cannot complete after the patch for the simple fact that they're running out of resources too fast and it takes longer for them to return.

These players aren't going to "L2P" or flip any switch in their brains. They don't cruise through Streams or Build Guides like you provide. Hell, they probably don't even know about 75% of the crafting stations and Sets in the game, and they definitely don't know about how the Monster Drop Sets work or would want to grind out the countless hours to get any of it like you or I would, even though those Sets may/may not mitigate the effects of the change.

If this change goes through, the vast majority of the player base will suddenly find that their one and only character simply cannot complete challenges one day, that they could the previous day.

But you are right about one thing: the Silent Casual won't care. They won't follow your suggestions, indeed they will most likely never visit your Streams for you to peddle an elitist viewpoint on how the game "should be played".

They'll see that their character no longer works. There won't be a readily-available, quick fix to restore their character's potency, and they'll simply quit and go play something else.

Because like most every other Streamer and Forum user, you're taking a position that the fixes to cope with this are "obvious", and for the level of content that you run, getting the correct set of gear that coordinates well with pieces from other Sets, are easy to regain/acquire.

But the level of content that you and I run every day, the level of content that you and I find to be easy, that content is (and will most likely always be) far out of reach of the vast majority of players. They simply will never have access to the fixes that you're suggesting and promoting.

And that's where your entire argument breaks down. Your suggestions are a fine workaround for the <5% that run end-game content, and for that top 5% of the playing populace, your suggestions might/might not work. But for the rest of the player base, the Silent Casual, this will be an insurmountable change. It will be insurmountable for them, the game will become magnitudes more difficult, and they'll leave.

Because while you or I have countless hours to grind away at this game, and some of the players have found a way to make this game (and other games) their careers; the vast, vast majority of players just use this game as an escape and come here to have fun. Not to have epic-frustration-levels of difficulty. The game will no longer make their characters effective to cruise through PvE content, and those players will leave.

So while your suggestions and those proto-change to the CP constellations might be workable for the 5% of players at end-game, it will only serve to drive away armies worth of Casual Players. It will not spark that desire for them to grind away and "L2P", it will spark a desire for them to go and play a game where their characters still feel remotely powerful.

And that will only be horrifically damaging to this MMO.

I read your whole post.

I'm sorry but if a player who jumps into a new game does not know how the game works or just refuses to learn the mechanics and the things they need to get better, then that is on them. The casual content is easy enough that even for casuals with ridiculous builds can spam snipe to get through haha.

Your position rests upon the assumption that casuals don't know how to get better at a game and will.simply leave instead of getting better. I don't believe that is a correct assumptions for most casuals. Most casuals are willing to learn and get better and actually want to, they just need people to teach theme.

This was my first mmo ever. I am a Tes fan and why I got into this. The first year of this game I didn't know about weaving/animation canceling. I mained bow in dungeons as a stam.nb. as you will recall a stam player and a nb for much of first year was trash. I didn't even know about food or drink. Yet I was still able.to do all most content in the game. Then one day a friend in gAmerica taught me all of these things. I learned at got way way better to where I am very very good now. I now pass that knowledge along to new players who soak it up like a sponge.

You make the point that casuals don't play the end get stuff that many of us here do. That they simply will not be good enough to access the content we run. So if this is the, then how will this effect them? The stuff they do play is very easy to where I have been with players in dungeons who spam snipe no problem and that is it through whole dungeon. So what this will do for casuals is make those really easy dungeons they do run a bit harder. Not enough to make them quit, enough to make them think more and ask questions because despite your position, people want to get better before they decide to quit.

Then there are casuals that just run overland content and quest. The easiest content in game. This change is not going to make people so bad at overland content that they quit. See my scenario above. You can walk through the overland content with any build and win.

A game is not about being able to just run through it without thinking about how gear, stats, skills, etc. What player gets into a game thinking we'll if I can't just walk through this content without learning how to play the game then I quit????? When did this mentality start??? You can't blame a game for being too hard if your unwilling to learn how to play the game. You have no right to complain about it. I mean just think about that for a second. Hey guys your game is too hard so I quit make it easier. What was too hard? Oh well I can't really tell you because I never learned how to play the game. ????? You want to balance around that type of player???? I don't think so.

@bowmanz607 And I read your whole post, and you missed the mark just by a bit.

You've oversimplified the argument, and become lost in the same mentality that @Alcast has.

It's not that the Silent Casual majority simply doesn't know how to get better at the game, it's that their version of "getting better" is very different from what you or I view as getting better.

As I said in my most recent post; they play the game, they try out different Skills, they try out different equipment from drops and what rafting stations that they find in the wilderness, and they find something that works to get them through the content and allows them to just play the game. Just being allowed to play the game, at a mildly challenging level of difficulty, but that they can move through with only a small bit of effort; that is what the Silent Casual is looking for. I'll say it again; video games in general, and MMORPG's as a whole genre are an escape for them. The Casual majority doesn't wan tsoul-crushing challenge like the end-game player wants.

You, I, and the Streamers (as well as the rest of the Hardcore players) view "getting better" as being able to run through the hardest content in the game. If our DPS/Sustain/Healing/tanking aren't putting out the numbers we need, we grind through to get the BiS gear, and we min/max until we have the toughest builds in the game. That is how we view "getting better".

It's not that the Silent Casual doesn't have a desire to get better, it's that what "getting better" means that is important.

Again, as I replied to for Alcast; removing the resource regen CP node and changing/removing the sustain node for Magicka users will make those Magicka builds for the Silent Casual just as worthless for them, as it does for us at the end-game level. But where that drives us end-gamer's to find a way around it, and it drives us to get the newer/better BiS gear to compensate, the Casual majority Player will simply see that their Magicka character no longer works, they'll see the task of rebuilding and reallocating Skillpoints, and the task of re-grinding or creating new gear, just on the notion that this might bring back a small level of viability to their characters, and they won't want to do it.

The game (again) is an escape for them, and having to go through all of that to make their character even partially work the way it did before the change, will not spark them to start grinding out like the end-game Player does. It will only spark a desire to find a game that hasn't arbitrarily gimped their characters, a game that allows them to just play and not have to worry about grinding out the best gear in the game just to be able to play.

As far as your question about "where" this mentality comes from; it's always been there since MMORPG's first emerged as their own genre.

You have the small, niche minority of players that race to end-game and fight and scrape to stay there, then you have the vast majority of... everyone else that just wants to log-in and run around in a fantasy world for a bit to forget the troubles of their real-life day.

And ever since MMO's emerged as their own genre; those players have ditched MMORPG's en masse once changes were made that arbitrarily increased the games base difficulty above the level of casual-play (like this proto-change to the CP constellations would do). Again; it's not that the Casual doesn't want to get better, it's that "getting better" has two very different meanings for Casual Players and End-game "Elite" Players.

OK so if I understand you correctly you are simply establishing the difference in "getting better" between players?

You speak of the Silent Casual and how they will just quit rather than grind out new gear, specs etc. Here is the thing. For one, you even stated these players don't grind out gear and so forth to begin with. So the whole concept of they would rather quite than grind doesn't add up. They will just do the same thing. Further, These silent casuals are also the players that will stick to some.overland questing. The easiest content in the game. Content where you don't need to worry about gear or skill combo's or weapon combo's etc. At worst this forces players to think just a tad more about light armor and, gear sets, and food/drink. The most minimal of thought might need to go into these players setups. If a player does not want to take minimal effort into the game to play it rather than mindlessly walking through it, then I say good riddance. These are not the players staying around spending money outside of the initial purchase anyway.

Players doing over land content not being willing to make minimal adjustments is crazy. Further, this is an mmo. It will be ever changing just like every mmo. Balance changes, meta shifts etc. So not making a change because some Silent Casual can't run around with no armor and a death staff to complete content is crazy.

Your condescension of the Casual Player, and inability to see past your point of view is really defeating your own argument.

YOU think that overland questing is the easiest aspect of the game. To the vast majority of the players base, whom only ever see the overland questing, that is quite challenging enough. But you can't seem to see that, because you're blinded by your own view of how the game "should be played".

You also cannot see that, those players will have their Magicka characters ruined by this game; but while they might do some light searching/crafting to try to fix the issue, they aren't going to devote the time to grind out Trials or Public Dungeons for the Monster Set drops that WILL rectify the issue. It will be more time consuming than any of them want, because of how casually they play ESO.

For the A-typical Casual Gamer (whom again, make up the vast majority of the games' population by quite a wide margin), the overland Questing IS the challenge that they're looking for, and while they can move through it with relative ease, it still provides enough challenge to give them the sensation that they're doing something.

But if this CP change goes through, then the difficulty of that same overland questing nearly triples due to all of the setbacks discussed here already ad nauseum. The reduced Magicka regen, the higher cost of abilities, lower DPS, having less resources and resource regen but the enemies still having the same damage modifiers/difficulty/resource drain attacks.

This will inordinately increase the difficulty for these Silent Casuals, and while they might try... something to get their lost DPS/Magicka pool/Magicka Regen, they aren't going to devote the time/effort to doing so that you are.

And all of your responses reek of the idea that the Casual Gamer is going to not only know about, but have the ability/time/desire to grind out the BiS gear that would correct the CP change, but can only be found in end-game content.

That's the core problem with your responses. You expect those same Casuals to simply grind it out like you would, when the truth is; when faced with a spike in difficulty caused by ZOS arbitrarily gimping their characters, it will be easier for the Silent Casual to find another High-Fantasy MMORPG and go play that, than it will be for them to figure out why their characters got weaker and the difficulty became much more intense, than to devote the time/money/effort/grinding necessary to find gear/monster drops that will make up for what ZOS takes away.

Your argument of "well, MMO's change all the time, people just need to adapt" is flawed in its very premise. MMORPG's have changed and evolved ever since the genre began. You are very correct in that.

But not every change is good or for the better of the game.

Bad changes, or ill-planned changes that hurt the Player and their Character(s), have chased players away from MMO's for just as long. Fact: Bad Changes like I mentioned have been the biggest killers of games in this genre since its inception. Those changes chase away the Casual Player, and no MMO survives those types of population hits. And no MMO has ever survived for long once the game became fine-tuned specifically for the end-game PvE/PvP player while leaving the Casual Players out in the wind. Not a single one.

So please, while you might be fine with this change, at least try to see past your "end-game-just-grind-out-new-stuff-PvE-is-toddler-level-easy-anyway" mentality. If you could, you would see how bad this change will be for the game as a whole.

gard · March 2017

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

gard wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

Dao_Jones wrote: »

I guess I'm actually indifferent to this change, because I don't play at a high enough level where this will ever matter to me.

I'm more annoyed that I came back to the game, and now racials matter. Racials should absolutely NOT matter; something like character appearance should always be driven by player choice - not mandated by the fear of making your character irrelevant for end-game content. That is an absolutely horrible choice ZOS has forced on players. (And one that has no precedent in previous ES games.)

...but that's not really germane to this thread, I guess. (Except that they'll matter even more, if one of the critical sources for resource management will be racial passives. I suppose I'll be glad I picked Breton for my new MagSorc, instead of Dunmer.

Its an MMO of course they are going to matter. And while race didnt "matter" in single player Elder Scrolls games, there was certainly "benefits" to certain races. Altmer and Breton got more Magicka in games. Orcs had that crazy once a day power in Skyrim. So yeah racials should matter. Plus with race change being 3000 crowns its not going away any time soon.

I direct you to WoW, where Racials largely didn't, outside of PVP. And even when it did it was one racial for PVP.

They shouldn't to the point where if you pick a different race you fail. Period.

What content exists that can't be completed by toons of any race?

There isn't any. If someone is failing at <insert activity here>, then the problem lies elsewhere. Race is not enough to significantly affect the chance to succeed or fail any content in this game.

First time I did vma I dis it on a bosmer stamina templar. Sure there was some l2p involved, but had I been a redguard I could have saved myself 10hrs of agony and just looted the chest.

Sure I do it np at all now, but it did make a huge meaningful difference.

First run through, I think you'd have spent that 10 hours or close to it regardless of the race you chose.

More to the point, you did not fail, and even if you had, it wouldn't have been because you were a bosmer.

I *still* haven't completed it on my orc nb, but it ain't 'cause I chose orc over khajiit.

wazzz56 · March 2017

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I'm okay with the change, and I've already got a way to work around having less sustain.

I strongly believe block cost CP should get a nerf to go with it, blowing my Magicka pool on someone blocking should drain both of our resources. Not just mine. Fair is fair, a one click "scotch tape the mouse button down" defense shouldn't be that much stronger.

I also hope that they just nerf the cost CP instead of eliminating it entirely. Say, 10-12% instead of 25%? Removing it is a little too drastic, but a nerf of some kind is definitely called for.

Look, I understand god-mode sustain is a problem in this game, and that battlegrounds just WONT work with some of the cancer builds out there. I think you need to take a hard look at some of the available sets first.

@Minalan , the longer you hold, the more expensive it (block cost) becomes and the lower your follow up regen becomes.

A block cooldown/penalty, if you will. There needs to be an opening somewhere in there.

They do it for roll dodge and skills like streak, why not for block?

There should be no such thing as a permablock build. There should be some kind of recover time requried.

Because tanks would be ***, how would you tank a trial

The same way you'll DPS in a trial without sustain.

We'll change our build and do less damage. Adapt.

How would you pass an enrage phase with a higher sustain lower damage build? ZOS should just leave cp alone.

@mr_wazzabi wazzzzzzzzzzzzzbi..my brotha!!