Warlord and Magician CP being removed in Morrowind

vyndral13preub18_ESO · March 2017

It isnt enough Bretons have an OP, AP passive! Now this! Quick! Everyone race change!

Egonieser · March 2017

JinMori wrote: »

Egonieser wrote: »

Good! About time people started thinking through their builds instead of piling CP into passives that negate the inherent weaknesses of certain OP setups. Now there will actually be downsides instead of all positives and no repercussions. People seem to want all the DPS there is with no penalty to other things, mainly regeneration/sustain, that's not how things usually work and that's not how balance is obtained.
High DPS = Low sustain, want sustain - sacrifice DPS, simple as that.
I just hope one day they remove or completely rework CP system - IMO it was a huge mistake from the get-go

ZoS has finally listened (somewhat)!

But you know what, all of these problems that you are talking about are purely pvp wise.
You didn't even try to think it from a pve prospective.
If your gear doesn't give you sustain, your abilities should.
And what are they gonna do now? Completely remove the cp system? it's 2 years late for that. If they remove it now many people who love this system will just leave the game, rather improve on it, but if you take away from something you must give back something, you can't just take away 16 % reduced cost, sustain will go to ***, and good luck doing v trials without any sustain, or without damage.

Pve is a much more controlled environment, cp aren't a big problem, just buff the boss, while in pvp you can make crazy builds, so i'm of the idea that for pvp cp points should be disabled, or reworked without affecting pve.
Would prefer the latter.

Yes, but people played without CP for a good while and knew how to do it. They all ran PvE dungeons, veteran versions, hardmode versions, trials and PvP. There was no issue. The only issue was the huge grinds for veteran ranks which everyone complained about. Some complained about stat caps, that's the worst it got.
All these pre-CP sets are still in the game, and still work when built properly around them. Sure you won't be the ultimate DPS machine with inexhaustible resources, but you can still be good and solid for any content.

Right now the problem is - the system allows to make extreme cheese builds for both PvE and PvP alike.
Yeah your average mushroom picker will not be contributing to it, but the top tier player base are all running the cheese and it needs to be toned down. Your average mushroom picker will be non the wiser that they have a few % less regeneration/higher cost and continue slogging through the content at their usual pace. It just limits the crazy high numbers (unnecessarily high numbers) in all aspects of a broken cheese build. E.g. sets that were obviously designed without considering the effects CP system could have on it.

arkansas_ESO · March 2017

Egonieser wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Egonieser wrote: »

Good! About time people started thinking through their builds instead of piling CP into passives that negate the inherent weaknesses of certain OP setups. Now there will actually be downsides instead of all positives and no repercussions. People seem to want all the DPS there is with no penalty to other things, mainly regeneration/sustain, that's not how things usually work and that's not how balance is obtained.
High DPS = Low sustain, want sustain - sacrifice DPS, simple as that.
I just hope one day they remove or completely rework CP system - IMO it was a huge mistake from the get-go

ZoS has finally listened (somewhat)!

But you know what, all of these problems that you are talking about are purely pvp wise.
You didn't even try to think it from a pve prospective.
If your gear doesn't give you sustain, your abilities should.
And what are they gonna do now? Completely remove the cp system? it's 2 years late for that. If they remove it now many people who love this system will just leave the game, rather improve on it, but if you take away from something you must give back something, you can't just take away 16 % reduced cost, sustain will go to ***, and good luck doing v trials without any sustain, or without damage.

Pve is a much more controlled environment, cp aren't a big problem, just buff the boss, while in pvp you can make crazy builds, so i'm of the idea that for pvp cp points should be disabled, or reworked without affecting pve.
Would prefer the latter.

Yes, but people played without CP for a good while and knew how to do it. They all ran PvE dungeons, veteran versions, hardmode versions, trials and PvP. There was no issue. The only issue was the huge grinds for veteran ranks which everyone complained about. Some complained about stat caps, that's the worst it got.
All these pre-CP sets are still in the game, and still work when built properly around them. Sure you won't be the ultimate DPS machine with inexhaustible resources, but you can still be good and solid for any content.

Right now the problem is - the system allows to make extreme cheese builds for both PvE and PvP alike.
Yeah your average mushroom picker will not be contributing to it, but the top tier player base are all running the cheese and it needs to be toned down. Your average mushroom picker will be non the wiser that they have a few % less regeneration/higher cost and continue slogging through the content at their usual pace. It just limits the crazy high numbers (unnecessarily high numbers) in all aspects of a broken cheese build. E.g. sets that were obviously designed without considering the effects CP system could have on it.

That pre-CP game doesn't exist anymore, core mechanics have been changed to accommodate CP (bolt escape fatigue, dodge fatigue, increase to base costs, etc.) Just yanking CP out doesn't suddenly bring the game back to 2014.

DHale · March 2017

It's just lazy development. Making stuff harder (more effort less rewards). I still have fun but it gets old. I remember when vr 10 was the highest you could there was a change to add two veteran ranks in vr 12 crafted seducer and warlock I was soft capped regen AND damage and could breath of life I think 62 or 63 times in a row. People say there is unlimited sustain.... ha ha you can't even do half of that now. Skill cost way more and cost reduction has been nerfed and regen is way lower than it used to be. This is within the confines of a progressive progression system.

souravami · March 2017

Vercingetorix wrote: »

This is hilarious. NB's have been asking for a buff and this is likely what we'll get. (Not a buff per se, but everyone else will be nerfed down to our level, lol.) If these changes stick, Nightblades will go from underpowered to topdog DPS in one patch. These changes won't even hurt me because I specifically chose NB for its sustain over the high, unsustainable Sorc damage.

Every sorc that barely handles sustain with the already mandatory support from its healers will be now be bottom of the barrel for DPS.
"NB is lowest DPS. Roll a Sorc."
*Nerfs everyone's sustain, except for the sustain-based class.*
"Sorc has no sustain. Roll a NB."
Well played, ZoS....

Ever heard of heavy attack petsorc builds?

Faulgor · March 2017

All the seas must have turned into fresh water, because I don't see where else you could get this much salt from.

The champion system is probably one of the best ways to address undesireable game mechanics from ZOS' point of view. If they think sustain is too good, I can't really disagree. I'm always at the CP cap, and the only char who struggles with sustain is my hybrid. I hope they make more interesting changes and am looking forward to see the whole set before coming to a conclusion.

Morgul667 · March 2017

I hope this kind of major change will not happen.
Improve things little by little without making huge changes at once would make me happier and less likely to feel played every other patch.

They have mentioned they want to make sustain harder... but this looks tough

Joy_Division · March 2017

It was a mistake to have a post “end-game” progression system with so much power. Now ZoS is using a broken CP system to fix said broken CP system.

Tear the whole thing down and make a horizontal and subtle post "end-game" system that will allow us to customize our characters as oppose to giving them so much moar power. ZoS, I understand it took you months to create the CP system and it will take you months to reform it. Do it. The CP system is broken.

Ep1kMalware · March 2017

I totally forgot engine guardian existed. Might be useful again. Ive used it in vma when laggy due to excessive dodgerolling when vigor decides it wont fire off. I'd hate to see kraghs go but once I get all sharp vma weapons and can slot tbs over spriggans my dps should still be 35k

andreasranasen · March 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

It was a mistake to have a post “end-game” progression system with so much power. Now ZoS is using a broken CP system to fix said broken CP system.

Tear the whole thing down and make a horizontal and subtle post "end-game" system that will allow us to customize our characters as oppose to giving them so much moar power. ZoS, I understand it took you months to create the CP system and it will take you months to reform it. Do it. The CP system is broken.

Horizontal progression is boring. Stop making this game into Guild Wars!

Enslaved · March 2017

PvE for stamina classes without CP will be last nail into coffin. Even now there are almost no stamina builds in trials.
Also, these changes make anyone who would like to wear medium armor in Cyrodiil a complete moron. Or ganker. Gankers could care less about stat regen.

WhiteMage · March 2017

andreasranasen wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

It was a mistake to have a post “end-game” progression system with so much power. Now ZoS is using a broken CP system to fix said broken CP system.

Tear the whole thing down and make a horizontal and subtle post "end-game" system that will allow us to customize our characters as oppose to giving them so much moar power. ZoS, I understand it took you months to create the CP system and it will take you months to reform it. Do it. The CP system is broken.

Horizontal progression is boring. Stop making this game into Guild Wars!

Your vertical progression will be the death of PvP.

Kamatsu · March 2017

ESO already has a problem of 'best' race for each type of DD/healer/tank based upon racial passive's - if these changes go ahead as shown, isn't this just going to make this even worse?

Right now you can generally get away with non-best races that don't give +regen and/or +damage passives by the use of Magician/Warlord & the regen CP. So say a magicka Wood Elf - has no magicka or damage passives, but can still be used (just not in best/fastest/time runs) decently well due to CP. With these changes... magicka Wood Elf just got a whole lot worse... while races like Breton, Altmer & Dumner just got even better tan they already were due to their passives.

So won't these changes just drive more people to play only select races?

IE. Breton/Altmer/Dumner for Magicka, Redguard/Imperial/Khajit(?) for Stamina.

And yes, there already are a lot of these races already as most ppl do pick these, but I still see a lot of non-best races being played by people.

Another thing they might be trying to do is to force people to use different skills or morph's, but without nerfing/buffing skills to force the change.

Take my Magicka Templar that I'm solo PvE questing with. I know not the best example, but it's what I can provide. I use Puncturing Sweeps as my main attack, Reflective Light to multi-dot groups with Restoring Focus morph to provide the +healing & -damage taken buffs. I also have Inner Light slotted for +magicka & +spell crit, and Honor the Dead for emergency healing. With these changes I'd likely change Restoring Focus to Channeled Focus for the +magicka regen at expense of +healing and-damage taken. I'd also consider ditching Honor the Dead (hardly use it anyways) for Restoring Aura for the increased magicka regen passive and minor magicksteal on skill usage.

Yes, I know I'm only dealing with 1 bar changes, and most ppl on these forums use 2-bar's. However I'd be inclined to think it's possible a lot of skill morph or skill's chosen right now might change due to lack of cost reduction and lowered regen... changed to favor those who focus on regen of a resource, or provide magicka/stamina stealing, etc type of abilities/procs.

olsborg · March 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

Already a thread going on about this in the Alliance War forum, but I think maybe it needs to be brought to the wider attention of PvE folks who don't visit there.

Screenshots from PAX East: https://imgur.com/a/KS9mP#rBB48CB (not mine)
Stamina and Magicka cost reduction CP apparently removed

Mooncalf and Arcanist regen CP reduced to 15% maximum from 25% maximum

Warlord changed to "Break Free" cost reduction

Magician replaced by Siphoner, which reduces target's regen (health, magicka & stamina) when hit by light/heavy attacks

The bolded part basicly only hits medium and light armor builds, not heavy armor builds at all, cause heavy armor builds rely on resource returns through heavy armor constitution, racial passives or other ways to get resource returns.

While this done to directly hurt heavy armor builds.

adriant1978 wrote: »

Stamina and Magicka cost reduction CP apparently removed

Yes, but that hurts all builds, noregen builds dont rly suffer if regen gets nerfed. Noregen builds are already pretty darn strong.

olsborg · March 2017

Cost-increase poison just got buffed lol, and we all hate those already.

I already semi-retired my medium armor stamblade and my light armor magsorc got retired a while ago. Already prepurchased Morrowind, but thats only to play morrowind because I love that freakin region, nostalgia. I prob wont be pvping again, but who knows. This game has been on a path I dont like for quite a while now, empower zergplay for pvp and keep nerfing soloers counter to zergs.

Anhedonie · March 2017

I hope ther rebalance skill cost anyway.
I can't sustain mDK even with 100 points in Magician. It's either you have a pocket healer with orbs and drain, or heavy spam all the way.
And most of time pug healers have no idea what drain or orbs are.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO · March 2017

You folks do realize that this hurts healers more than anyone right?

Kay1 · March 2017

BlackbirdV wrote: »

Guessing pvpers moaning got this change?

Great, lets *** over pve even more......

Stop blaming others, no one in this whole community (PvE and PvP) asked for a nerf to anything related with cp, those genius that we call dev decided it because well because, just like they buffed Eye of Storn while everyone asked for nerf and just like they nerfed swallow soul while everyone asked for a buff, because they're very smart developers with a bright future ahead.

kongkim · March 2017

Tabbycat wrote: »

Well it's my personal opinion that Vivec should just divert that moon and have it crash in Cyrodiil instead of decades later in Morrowind.

Dear ZOS, just separate pvp balancing from pve balancing already.

No thx. its the same game. and i play both PVE and PVP..

Joy_Division · March 2017

andreasranasen wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

It was a mistake to have a post “end-game” progression system with so much power. Now ZoS is using a broken CP system to fix said broken CP system.

Tear the whole thing down and make a horizontal and subtle post "end-game" system that will allow us to customize our characters as oppose to giving them so much moar power. ZoS, I understand it took you months to create the CP system and it will take you months to reform it. Do it. The CP system is broken.

Horizontal progression is boring. Stop making this game into Guild Wars!

And a flat, unimaginative straight percentage power increase is somehow exciting and interesting?

Kay1 · March 2017

kongkim wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

Well it's my personal opinion that Vivec should just divert that moon and have it crash in Cyrodiil instead of decades later in Morrowind.

Dear ZOS, just separate pvp balancing from pve balancing already.

No thx. its the same game. and i play both PVE and PVP..

I love those type of people "Zeni pls separate pvp changes from pve" like there's hundreds of threads asking for things to get nerfed.

As someone who spend his whole life in the PvP section of this game the only things that PvP players asked is a buff to Medium and Light, a nerf to Eye of Flame and a limit of proc sets that you can wear.

You PvE genius said the same for the Jesus beam nerf and proc set nerf but guess what no one asked for that type of nerf, no one for real.

Blame Zenimax and their good developers behind this.

Mayrael · March 2017

Huehuehue... Light attack OP! This will mess some things arround. Dodge will make you even more stronger at least in PvP.
Since we are at it, can we talk about light and heavy attack scaling? It should scale of your max resource pool and spell/weapon dmg.

But... From PvE perspective its... bad, rly bad. All we need is inverse the siphoner star, light and heavy attack buffs your regen instead of decrease it for your target.. ZOS! You wont get rid of neverending resource pools in Cyrodiil or PvE, enless you want 80% of population to be able to throw 3 skills and be out of gas... Its silly but ok, in PvP everyone plays on the same terms and it will change some things but in general balance wont change that much as it will in PvE... Pls reconsider those changes to be at least a bit more balanced.

Olupajmibanan · March 2017

I still don't understand why people want CP removed from PvP? Don't we have Azura's Star campaign for that?
For BGs, I would like to see the same system, option to go classic or non-CP battlegrounds. Just to satisfy both, people who like CP and people who don't.

Zenimax can't anger me. Remove the cost reduction cp - I will switch to heavy attack DK build. As for other classes, Overload builds might become a thing once again. Templar will do fine with channeled focus (many templars dropped this lately).

Caza99 · March 2017

I'm legitimately surprised by all the outrage towards these changes in this thread. I'm very excited by these potential changes, imo these changes were needed (Except that siphoner one, thats a bit...eww). The sustain CP allows is insane, very few people even run any sustain on their gear anymore and the CP system is a big reason for that. 16% Cost Reduction and 25% regen is way too much, and seperating roll dodge and CC break will (hopefully) force people to spread their CP out more rather than stack all into 2 or 3 stars.
The CP system is my single biggest issue with PvP in this game right now, I'm glad ZOS are at least addressing it's imbalance.

Waseem · March 2017

more changes more fun

QahnaarinDynar · March 2017

CP system is not broken as some others vainly try to claim. What's broken is the game in general because of all the unnecessary nerfs that zos has made to abilities because of ignorant players who don't get of all the mechanics the game has to offer. So when one set of stuff gets nerfed for "balance", it actually creates a greater imbalance and then the class('s) which benefits from it gets nerfed next because of this. Effectively we're locked in an infinite power vacuum that just gets worse and worse each patch.

This is why at this point the CP system is more like the "patch up zos errors" system. PvP'ers who complain about those who have virtually unlimited resources are stupid because firstly CP is not what primarily enables that, it's the bonuses from SET GEAR that has become more readily available after 1 tam when previously it was prohibitively rare to possess them. Despite that there's also this useful little tool called poisons among many other things. I never go into PvP without the tri-stat poisons, and because of that we've been able to kill the unstoppable super tanks in small groups of 2-3 people when me and my guild head out. Heck... recently even I was able to kill a consta blocking 900+ cp blue DK by myself because of poisons and well timed bursts.

The imbalance in this game will stop when the whiners stop crying about something being too OP or zos stops listening to them all together. The crowds who get mad because of shield stackers, healplars and 1tap gankers are by far the most toxic and ignorant players I've ever run into on this game, and they are what's ruining it for the rest of us.

Cronopoly · March 2017

I'm waiting to see Stamina and Magicka cost reduction CP apparently removed and replaced by Stamina and Magicka cost reduction Pots in the Crown Store

Ladislao · March 2017

Removed part about healing and only stamina abilities

Really? I hope Elfborn will be nerfed too. Otherwise it will be a serious blow to stamina healers.

Olupajmibanan · March 2017

Caza99 wrote: »

The CP system is my single biggest issue with PvP in this game right now, I'm glad ZOS are at least addressing it's imbalance.

Why don't you play in Azura's Star then? You don't like CPs, play without. There is campaign made exactly for you.

pema · March 2017

Make stamina greath again....