Warlord and Magician CP being removed in Morrowind

Tasear

JinMori wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

*reads*

*reads again*

*raises eyebrow*

*thinks that since he uses a heavy attack build with no sustain issues in PvE, diz gunna be gud*

*shows large evil grin*

On a more serious note, they already stated that they compared PvP between CP and non-CP, and were not a big fan of how little investment in sustain is required in CP campaigns, so that'll probably happen either way - tho I do expect a pretty big uproar (inb4 PvErs asking to delete PvP, etc etc) which will cause the nerf to be not as drastic as showcased here.

They did mention that they were also considering making 2h weapons count as 2 items. "Why does that matter?" - well, if sustain is going down the trashcan and this change happens, not knowing which sets are gonna drop with Morrowind, I'd expect Moondancer to become even more mandatory if you want to play magicka competitively, so hello RNG hell.

This is a tragedy, This game already is a bit centered around cp, Vet trials are impossible or almost impossible with 0 cp.
just separate pvp and pve already, wow did that, why can't you zenimax??

No really.. how do you except us to do vet trials or your new trial? Will we have in invest a race change.... I like a free one from eso plus package if you really do this.

Just split pvp and pve we don't live in the same world.

Tapio75

CP removal would be idiotic.. You reach level 50, no more tweaking, game over.

CP is exellent way to improve character further after level 50 in PVE, no matter what PVE i do. It can be just quests but the thing that i have a point to improve character every now and then makes playing more than just going throuh content.

Besides speculation about complete CP removal is somewhat trolly and at least reaching bit too far. CP cap is increasing in Morrowind, this is confirmed allready. Cap is not usually raised to some system can be removed. Speculation is irrelevant.

Flameheart

My hope is that we see just a part of the changes on the screenshots.

I can't speak for PvP, but ressource management in vet trials is far from being as easy as some describe it here. I think about the effort like buffs/debuffs, bubbles, synergies and pots I have to use to have the ressource to dish out the dps that is even needed for some encounters with inherent enrage limits (like actually the first 2 bosses in vet MoL if you count having no crystal columns left or subsequently 4 adds as an enrage limit). Actually you don't need to go vet trials to have inherent enrage limits.

My guess - or better my hope - is that they will add the missing sustain from CPs in general to players by increasing the base regeneration. This would make sense because it would actually help out low CP Players and not harm high CPlers in vet content.

They could adapt all content to the new ressource and dps standards on the other hand, but this should be much more complex and means much more effort.

Doctordarkspawn

*** why? Why? Stop nerfing resources. You allready require most people to litterally spend their entire build on sustaining resources.

If you keep doing this, eventually people will not be able to produce the damage to beat the content. Somewhere, the machine breaks down. Do you not get this, devs? Do you think the playerbase is just going to conform every, single, time? That somewhere, somehow, you would make a change that one simply cannot build around?

This is a greater problem, one that holds even if this proves to be false. I hope it is. Eventually, if ZOS keeps demanding the playerbase hit certain threshholds in damage and taking our tools to do it away, things will grind to a crushing halt and the endgame community will throw up their hands

(Edited because I misread things, but seriously. The more you remove sustain tools, the more your basicly destroying the functionality of a system that's allready far from workable.)

I want to believe that these changes are for CP in battlegrounds or something. That ZOS is finally taking steps to seperate the two. Buuut I dont. I believe I might not actually -buy- morrowind because ZOS wants to rip this game to shreds because they refuse to fire the current balance team.

JinMori

People say that resource managment is so easy is pve now, but they fail to mention that without a good group setup you will never be able to sustain for more then 2 min.
If no one throws orbs, minor magickasteal etc...
So basically the only time that you have almost unlimited resources is when you run in a coordinated group

cpuScientist

rhapsodious wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

This is the time when I just don't think ZOS knows how to interact with players. 5 pages of rage and not a single reply. Just come in and quickly say, these changes are not final and there are more things playing into the mix that is not shown in those screenshots. We will have more info coming soon

Done thread eased up and misinformation no longer being spread. INTERACT WITH THE FORUMS!!! lol geez.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno

Gina, Rich, Wheeler and anyone else from ZOS just finished showfloor stuff at PAX 4.5 hours ago, not to mention the cleanup. Then they're dying in their hotel rooms before flying back to MD tomorrow. They're human. Please chill.

Nahhhh you chill.

MrBrandon

Stupid changes.

Rex-Umbra

Heavy armour dead next update. Every one will need the cost reduction and regen of medium and light.

Ep1kMalware

cjthibs wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Caza99 wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Caza99 wrote: »

The CP system is my single biggest issue with PvP in this game right now, I'm glad ZOS are at least addressing it's imbalance.

Why don't you play in Azura's Star then? You don't like CPs, play without. There is campaign made exactly for you.

Thank you for your insightful comment, I would never have thought of that myself. -_-
I already play in Azura's Star. Doesn't mean I can't take issue with the Champion System. I would love to play in TF and Haderus more often, but like I said...

You forgot that there are actually players who like CP system in pvp. That's why we have different campaigns, to satisfy both segments.

If CPs are removed from pvp completely, how would be TF different from Azura? And why would you even bother playing in TF if Azura is exactly the same?

Just let this as it is. You have no right to complain about CPs in PvP since you can freely chose to play with or without them.

People do have a right to complain about whatever they want. It's called free speech.

But, fair enough, what you'll actually see a lot of people say is that they wish CP would be reworked in such a way that didn't require its wholesale removal for a sense of fair play. An actual horizontal system like what was promised.

No they don't, and know it's not. You should look that one up as "free speach" has no private party bearing. -.- ..kids these days..

Ep1kMalware

BohnT wrote: »

ereboz wrote: »

This is gonna destroy pve to once again cater to PvP. They gotta find a way to balance this. I already have issues with magicka

No pvp player wanted this change as it hurts pvp much more than pve

Oh? Oh yeah?? Do go on..

cjthibs

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

cjthibs wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Caza99 wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Caza99 wrote: »

The CP system is my single biggest issue with PvP in this game right now, I'm glad ZOS are at least addressing it's imbalance.

Why don't you play in Azura's Star then? You don't like CPs, play without. There is campaign made exactly for you.

Thank you for your insightful comment, I would never have thought of that myself. -_-
I already play in Azura's Star. Doesn't mean I can't take issue with the Champion System. I would love to play in TF and Haderus more often, but like I said...

You forgot that there are actually players who like CP system in pvp. That's why we have different campaigns, to satisfy both segments.

If CPs are removed from pvp completely, how would be TF different from Azura? And why would you even bother playing in TF if Azura is exactly the same?

Just let this as it is. You have no right to complain about CPs in PvP since you can freely chose to play with or without them.

People do have a right to complain about whatever they want. It's called free speech.

But, fair enough, what you'll actually see a lot of people say is that they wish CP would be reworked in such a way that didn't require its wholesale removal for a sense of fair play. An actual horizontal system like what was promised.

No they don't, and know it's not. You should look that one up as "free speach" has no private party bearing. -.- ..kids these days..

Not sure what 'free speach' is, but free speech encompasses the right to speak your mind, even if your opinion is controversial. In private spaces, such as this forum, only the owners of that space have the right, or power, to abridge someone else's speech, in this case the moderators. Telling someone else they have no right to complain about something is not something you, or any other user can enforce.

Also, don't assume someone's age from a few sentences. It makes you look pretty foolish.

Ep1kMalware

ADarklore wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Those changes in CP are just bad news.

Not only for PvP which will cause:
- DPS build to do even more insane DPS
- Lack of stamina resource to break free or magicka to heal / cleanse when necessary...
- How will be players suppose to dodge some AOE in PvP with almost no stamina recovery ?!

Also bad for PvE players who just base their resource management on those CP passives... wtf
...not to mention it is a insane buff for some racial recourse re-gen passives

Long time ago when I unlocked my first CP I thought:
"Oh.. ok so this is how can I compensate for my racial passive and just get close to the cap with everything right ? So racial passives will be almost irrelevant right ?"

NOPE... how naive.. it is ZOS... instead of balancing racial passives we got 2 - 4 races with the best ones and the rest is just bottom of the barrel...

Racial passives which were supposed to be marginal and almost irrelevant in late game will become in most cases too relevant...

And if this information is true, now ZOS just killed PvP for many non - Altmer, Redguard, Khajiit players :'(

It is those players who base their resource management off the CP passives that they are specifically targeting. They said months ago that players should be using Cost Reduction enchants for resource management, instead, players simply used the CP passives and used all damage enchants instead. Now, those same players will be forced to use Cost Reduction enchants.

Meh, I'll jist have to pick up an extra shard or two. Maybe use engine guardian for last boss vma (rest of the fights are too easy). Some people will adapt, other's will struggle alot more.

luen79rwb17_ESO

I just want a CP system that is useful and meaningful in both PVE and PVP.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

JinMori wrote: »

People say that resource managment is so easy is pve now, but they fail to mention that without a good group setup you will never be able to sustain for more then 2 min.
If no one throws orbs, minor magickasteal etc...
So basically the only time that you have almost unlimited resources is when you run in a coordinated group

Shhhh you are ruining the story line.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

Soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, and soft caps.

Oh, did I mention soft caps?

acw37162

If they buff cost reduction in medium and light armor I'm ok with it.

Buffs medium and light and makes it harder for Heavy to get cost reduction and sustain.

Moloch1514

At this point it'd be nice to get a response to help curb the speculation. @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno are you able to provide any insight?

HoloYoitsu

Wrobel be like

MrBrandon

Moloch1514 wrote: »

At this point it'd be nice to get a response to help curb the speculation. @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno are you able to provide any insight?

I agree. So I can decide if I want to waste anymore money on this game.

gard

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

I totally forgot engine guardian existed. Might be useful again. Ive used it in vma when laggy due to excessive dodgerolling when vigor decides it wont fire off. I'd hate to see kraghs go but once I get all sharp vma weapons and can slot tbs over spriggans my dps should still be 35k

Without cost reduction you won't be able to cast vigor. Base cost is like 7k isn't it?

Dao_Jones

JinMori wrote: »

So basically the only time that you have almost unlimited resources is when you run in a coordinated group

Is that really a bad thing, though?

I played this game at launch, and one of the play elements I liked was the idea of soft caps, where there was a logical point past which maximizing a stat became a conscious decision to push your character into a "pure" build at the expense of potentially useful hybridization. (Kinda like the "glass cannon" versus "balanced attack" approach.)

I came back recently, and I'm kind of appalled at what the game has become. It annoys the hell out of me that any racial choice other than Dunmer or Altmer for Magicka builds means making a character that will never, ever be as strong as those two. It annoys me that gear and CP have replaced the need to make most build choices, and now everyone just designs every single class exactly the same way: "one resource management skill on the back bar, and make up the rest from CP and gear."

I'd much prefer a game where you need to make a choice between sustained and spike DPS. Where there's value in hybridization. And, ideally, end-game dungeons that are challenging because fights require players be clever or creative - NOT just DPS races against enrage timers.

(Timers are, in my opinion, the absolute laziest game design choice ever invented, and are universally the result of trying to cover up poor game design decisions.)

HoloYoitsu

Dao_Jones wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

So basically the only time that you have almost unlimited resources is when you run in a coordinated group

Is that really a bad thing, though?

I played this game at launch, and one of the play elements I liked was the idea of soft caps, where there was a logical point past which maximizing a stat became a conscious decision to push your character into a "pure" build at the expense of potentially useful hybridization. (Kinda like the "glass cannon" versus "balanced attack" approach.)

I came back recently, and I'm kind of appalled at what the game has become. It annoys the hell out of me that any racial choice other than Dunmer or Altmer for Magicka builds means making a character that will never, ever be as strong as those two. It annoys me that gear and CP have replaced the need to make most build choices, and now everyone just designs every single class exactly the same way: "one resource management skill on the back bar, and make up the rest from CP and gear."

I'd much prefer a game where you need to make a choice between sustained and spike DPS. Where there's value in hybridization. And, ideally, end-game dungeons that are challenging because fights require players be clever or creative - NOT just DPS races against enrage timers.

(Timers are, in my opinion, the absolute laziest game design choice ever invented, and are universally the result of trying to cover up poor game design decisions.)

Absolutely, I preferred the soft caps too. The problem with removing sustain from CP but not anything else is it just pushes everything into even fewer viable builds.

LuminaLilly

Kay1 wrote: »

R.I.P Solo PvP and Endgame PvE for new players.

To all my godly 1vX'rs it was fun but now it's over, every patch we become weaker and zergs stronger.

You can 1vX on BDO? Was looking forward to start this game now to prevent grinding when I start working.

@kay1

The Zerg meta has been the overlording meta above all metas. I feel ya. The Zerg meta will be buffed and buffed by merging self sustain.

As the cp changes, I'm a tad bummed by the recovery change and removed of cost reduction. Judging by the course that Zenimax has been going, I expected they would only Nerf magic CP. I am reassured that it's also affecting stamina CP too.

Heruthema

ZOS has and will continue to coddle the casual player. This has ruined the game. What is there to strive for when someone who has only played a short time and makes no investment to get better is still on par with players that have been here from the beginning and have put in the time to get CP.
They started by removing Vet level and installing Battle leveling, Why? Because the casual player cried. They they curtailed the amount of CP you can use. Why? Because the casual player cried. Now they are changing the CP you have. Why? Because the casual player cried.
See the pattern? ZOS will continue this pattern so get used to it. Why? Because it means more sales if a casual player can be on par with those that have put in the time.

Uriel_Nocturne

Heruthema wrote: »

ZOS has and will continue to caudal the casual player. This has ruined the game. What is there to strive for when someone who has only played a short time and makes no investment to get better is still on par with players that have been here from the beginning and have put in the time to get CP.
They started by removing Vet level and installing Battle leveling, Why? Because the casual player cried. They they curtailed the amount of CP you can use. Why? Because the casual player cried. Now they are changing the CP you have. Why? Because the casual player cried.
See the pattern? ZOS will continue this pattern so get used to it. Why? Because it means more sales if a casual player can be on par with those that have put in the time.

This... isn't even remotely true.

Changing the sustain nodes and removing the Cost Reduction nodes from the CP constellations actually punishes the casual player (and PvE players in general) far more than you seem to want to realize.

Not to mention, it will disproportionately hamstring end-game Trials and Arena players.

This change, if it stays "as is" thru PTS and into the Live Game, will destroy... pretty much every Magicka build in the game.

The fact that you seem to think that this is something "casual players' have been "crying for", just shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.

And it's "coddle", not "caudal".

zaria

Tapio75 wrote: »

CP removal would be idiotic.. You reach level 50, no more tweaking, game over.

CP is exellent way to improve character further after level 50 in PVE, no matter what PVE i do. It can be just quests but the thing that i have a point to improve character every now and then makes playing more than just going throuh content.

Besides speculation about complete CP removal is somewhat trolly and at least reaching bit too far. CP cap is increasing in Morrowind, this is confirmed allready. Cap is not usually raised to some system can be removed. Speculation is irrelevant.

Yes, only upgrade afterwards would be gear.
this work in wow who has itemization levels and tokens, it would not work well in ESO as difference in gear is less and you have an insane rng.

zaria

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Heruthema wrote: »

ZOS has and will continue to caudal the casual player. This has ruined the game. What is there to strive for when someone who has only played a short time and makes no investment to get better is still on par with players that have been here from the beginning and have put in the time to get CP.
They started by removing Vet level and installing Battle leveling, Why? Because the casual player cried. They they curtailed the amount of CP you can use. Why? Because the casual player cried. Now they are changing the CP you have. Why? Because the casual player cried.
See the pattern? ZOS will continue this pattern so get used to it. Why? Because it means more sales if a casual player can be on par with those that have put in the time.

This... isn't even remotely true.

Changing the sustain nodes and removing the Cost Reduction nodes from the CP constellations actually punishes the casual player (and PvE players in general) far more than you seem to want to realize.

Not to mention, it will disproportionately hamstring end-game Trials and Arena players.

This change, if it stays "as is" thru PTS and into the Live Game, will destroy... pretty much every Magicka build in the game.

The fact that you seem to think that this is something "casual players' have been "crying for", just shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.

And it's "coddle", not "caudal".

This so much, an causal player plays and find he get stronger over time because of CP, not so much gear and rotation as he don't know all the details.
An low level power creep is required in PvE.
An over the board nerf like this will result in they not being able to do content they did before.
They would not be happy.

Enslaved

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

Soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, soft caps, and soft caps.

Oh, did I mention soft caps?

U forgot to enable CAPS LOCK.

grannas211

Dao_Jones wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

So basically the only time that you have almost unlimited resources is when you run in a coordinated group

Is that really a bad thing, though?

I played this game at launch, and one of the play elements I liked was the idea of soft caps, where there was a logical point past which maximizing a stat became a conscious decision to push your character into a "pure" build at the expense of potentially useful hybridization. (Kinda like the "glass cannon" versus "balanced attack" approach.)

I came back recently, and I'm kind of appalled at what the game has become. It annoys the hell out of me that any racial choice other than Dunmer or Altmer for Magicka builds means making a character that will never, ever be as strong as those two. It annoys me that gear and CP have replaced the need to make most build choices, and now everyone just designs every single class exactly the same way: "one resource management skill on the back bar, and make up the rest from CP and gear."

I'd much prefer a game where you need to make a choice between sustained and spike DPS. Where there's value in hybridization. And, ideally, end-game dungeons that are challenging because fights require players be clever or creative - NOT just DPS races against enrage timers.

(Timers are, in my opinion, the absolute laziest game design choice ever invented, and are universally the result of trying to cover up poor game design decisions.)

honestly it would appear that High Elf and Redguard would pull even further away from the pack

xaraan

I'm getting tired of having to completely rebuild my character several times a year just because they can't figure out how to balance the game and decide to roll out some crazy change like this.

But if they are going this way, then they should take a look at un-nerfing many of the regen sets like black rose and desert rose that felt OP because they could be combined with this. (FYI - want to nerf something like BR - take away the damage buff or reduce it, it's not OP just b/c someone is super tanky, it's OP b/c someone can be super tanky and do decent damage). Plus there have been other changes made like no regen of stam while blocking to deal with OP regen that now will feel like a double nerf to those builds.

Nothing makes me want to give up the game more than having to rebuild a bunch of characters every time there is a major patch. I hate feeling like that about a game I like.