cjthibs wrote: »

LuminaLilly wrote: »

cjthibs wrote: »

LuminaLilly wrote: »

@cjthibs what grinds my gears are people advocating for its permanent removal. And im like "just why?"

Then discuss it. Explain why you think that's a bad idea and not just accuse them of sucking at the game.

There are many reasons why people could think CP is a bad idea.
Balance - Why do we bother scaling folks if CP can unbalance that?
Increasing competition - Putting the focus more on skill than who has more time to grind.
Boring progression system - It doesn't add any character to builds, just raises stats.
Increased challenge - No CP means less infinite sustain builds.

Removing CP doesn't make it easier, it makes it less forgiving and more challenging. You can't have unlimited resources in No-CP. (Not easily anyway.) You have to make sacrifices or run a more rounded build. (Which is also a sacrifice.) CP is just free stuff. Just free stats with no drawbacks.

@cjthibs

CP has always been part of the game since 1.3 (?) And has added ways to fine tune builds.
It gives you the edge against others.
Without cp, all the nerfs to Magick builds are still active and brutally punishes Magicka build. With nerfs to Magicka sorc and Magicka Templar. I have a character rotation and my stamplar has been immensely easier to play lately, while my Magicka sorc feels handicapped.

and also why impose on thone who actually enjoy cp

So help me if someone says "u just suck without cp" which is why I've been saying vice versa

Fair enough. ...it has always been there for consoles, but not for PC. We had quite a long time with no CP, so perhaps some of us old-timers have a few tricks to round out our builds that console folks haven't had to learn.

I wouldn't say you suck, but I would say it takes a bit of creativity to overcome these shortcomings without CP to compensate. Likely you'd have to sacrifice some damage or survivability. Totally doable though.

This is also why fights are shorter without CP. You can't make mistakes and expect to get out of there alive. You mismanage resources, or don't have enough regen...you die. And this is another reason why non-CP is more fun for me, fights tend to get resolved quicker, both on an individual basis and for entire groups. There seems to be a lot more back and forth and less of two zergs standing in the same spot and wailing on each other.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

LuminaLilly wrote: »

cjthibs wrote: »

LuminaLilly wrote: »

cjthibs wrote: »

LuminaLilly wrote: »

@cjthibs what grinds my gears are people advocating for its permanent removal. And im like "just why?"

Then discuss it. Explain why you think that's a bad idea and not just accuse them of sucking at the game.

There are many reasons why people could think CP is a bad idea.
Balance - Why do we bother scaling folks if CP can unbalance that?
Increasing competition - Putting the focus more on skill than who has more time to grind.
Boring progression system - It doesn't add any character to builds, just raises stats.
Increased challenge - No CP means less infinite sustain builds.

Removing CP doesn't make it easier, it makes it less forgiving and more challenging. You can't have unlimited resources in No-CP. (Not easily anyway.) You have to make sacrifices or run a more rounded build. (Which is also a sacrifice.) CP is just free stuff. Just free stats with no drawbacks.

@cjthibs

CP has always been part of the game since 1.3 (?) And has added ways to fine tune builds.
It gives you the edge against others.
Without cp, all the nerfs to Magick builds are still active and brutally punishes Magicka build. With nerfs to Magicka sorc and Magicka Templar. I have a character rotation and my stamplar has been immensely easier to play lately, while my Magicka sorc feels handicapped.

and also why impose on thone who actually enjoy cp

So help me if someone says "u just suck without cp" which is why I've been saying vice versa

Fair enough. ...it has always been there for consoles, but not for PC. We had quite a long time with no CP, so perhaps some of us old-timers have a few tricks to round out our builds that console folks haven't had to learn.

I wouldn't say you suck, but I would say it takes a bit of creativity to overcome these shortcomings without CP to compensate. Likely you'd have to sacrifice some damage or survivability. Totally doable though.

This is also why fights are shorter without CP. You can't make mistakes and expect to get out of there alive. You mismanage resources, or don't have enough regen...you die. And this is another reason why non-CP is more fun for me, fights tend to get resolved quicker, both on an individual basis and for entire groups. There seems to be a lot more back and forth and less of two zergs standing in the same spot and wailing on each other.

@cjthibs
With Magicka being brutally nerfed and having these barbarians with battle axes dominating the battlefield with dizzying swings...There's no Balance.

Reason why 1.3 was easier w/o cp was because there weren't debilitating nerfs to any classes.

Removing CP from the game entirely will not suit well for many, a gRoss majority. They should perhaps open a 7 day no cp with azuras star.

Honestly, I'd love to see how PVP shakes out, with no CP, and softcaps again, as well as PVE. We might well find that alot of the old build problems, such as being shoehorned into the meta unable to change, dont exactly happen anymore when stats are capped, and enemies balanced around those caps, same as players.

...And on the subject of class nerfs, you have only the PVP audience to blame for that, monopolizing balance as a whole and giving PVE nothing in return.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

im sorry, but equating time played(CP earned) as some sort of entitlement is flawed logic. The CP system was created initially to be nothing more then a time sink to replace the old veteran ranks. In many ways, the CP grind is a worse grind then the old vet system people so rightfully despised.

As for CP giving build variety, thats simply not true. CP killed the majority of the games true hybrid builds. I leveled my Templar in 1.2 to be a "Bowplar" for those who were not around and don't know what that is, it was a Templar who used Bow abilities and Dawn's Wrath abilities equally, wearing Medium Armor with a two handed sword to fight, and it was very effective because Soft caps and no CP meant you were not gimped if you didn't put everything into one stat. Pelinal's is still a joke and works on maybe 1-2 niche builds, but still falls woefully short against any kind of min-max dedicated CP build, and thats simply facts.

The percentages given by the CP system are ridiclious...25% more regen, 16% more cost reduction, 50% more healing(Blessed & Quick Recovery), 25% more crit damage, 25% damage mitigation, etc

All the Champion system does is makes everyone a house, and when everyone can be a house, it just comes down to numbers. the CP crushed small scale PVP more then anything else in the history of this game.

With the CP System right now, you can run 5 Heavy 3 Jewels and Sword and Board on any kind of Templar and be a champion. Have you ever tried to duo or 3 man PVP a 6-8 man group with 2 of 3 of those Templars in group with the build listed above with 35k health? The amount of damage it takes to kill one of those guys is incredible...they would have to be away from their keyboard in a CP campaign to die.

If im with another DK, or another Nightblade, its doesn't matter if I outplay them, you can't win...if there is two or more covering each other, forget about it, theres no chance. You have to run a specialized build that Negates and spams Roots(Encase) just to deal with those guys, and you can't specialize that specifically in 2-3 man PVP....this means these ridiclious CP set ups like the Templars i talk about above favor zergs and zerging.

My Sorc can triple stack shields infinitely on a CP campaign and never drop below 90% magic(thats without Engine Guardian or Lich) that's broken!

My Templar(with 5 Heavy 3 Jewels and Sword and Board) can wave his hand one time and go from 10% health to full instantly, and has infinite sustain, and can tank 6-8 people with impunity, keeping others alive and being more tanky then most tanks...that's broken!

You have Nightblades who can literally roll endlessly, and still dish out very good damage with nearly infinite stamina sustain. The CP system gives them so much sustain and damage they can simply not have to gear towards sustain and still do very very well.

You had guys like Ezareth(the best player to ever play ESO IMO, and I was lucky enough to call him a friend even if we were on diff factions mostly) tried to tell them on the 1.6 PTS that once folks got past 250-300 CP everyone would be a god and the setups possible would be ridiclious, and folks wouldn't listen.

If you were only allowed to have 200 CP active while in Cyrodiil it would be ok, but 600 is way too many...it allows you to invest in everything...on my DK in PVE i can have 100 in cost reduction and 100 in regen, its shouldn't be that way! you shouldn't be able to invest in everything the way it is now, and they just keep raising the cap.

Small scale PVP and 1vX on Azura Star is actually competitive and very satisfying, because no one is a god, if you make mistakes, you die. This is how it should be. Sypher had a rant about 8 months ago talking about why dueling sucks and how CP makes everything just a min-max game where everyone has everything, and he was just as right then as he is now.

Acting like CP adds some layer of skill to the game is comical.

I totally want them to keep a CP campaign for people who want to play that way, but I simply can't go back to the infinite sustain, infinite resource, perma tank, perma healer, instagib broken CP pvp. If folks want to play that way, fine, but i'll glady give up my 745+ and growing CP in return for pvp that feels significantly better, pvp where you have to give up damage to get sustain, have to give up sustain to get damage, have to give up damage to be tanky, etc....none of that is true on CP pvp...in CP pvp....everyone is simply a house, and when everyone is a house, it all comes down to numbers.

my 9 man group wiped 35 AD at Roe Mine last night, by outsmarting them, ultimi bombing them, and siege while they tried to choo choo train us with Destro Ultis,...smart flanking siege placement, and 7 coordinated Ulty Bombs rekt them, such a fight would not have been winnable on Trueflame CP due to the power creep of CP favoring numbers due to the "everyone is a house" nature of CP.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

im sorry, but equating time played(CP earned) as some sort of entitlement is flawed logic. The CP system was created initially to be nothing more then a time sink to replace the old veteran ranks. In many ways, the CP grind is a worse grind then the old vet system people so rightfully despised.

As for CP giving build variety, thats simply not true. CP killed the majority of the games true hybrid builds. I leveled my Templar in 1.2 to be a "Bowplar" for those who were not around and don't know what that is, it was a Templar who used Bow abilities and Dawn's Wrath abilities equally, wearing Medium Armor with a two handed sword to fight, and it was very effective because Soft caps and no CP meant you were not gimped if you didn't put everything into one stat. Pelinal's is still a joke and works on maybe 1-2 niche builds, but still falls woefully short against any kind of min-max dedicated CP build, and thats simply facts.

The percentages given by the CP system are ridiclious...25% more regen, 16% more cost reduction, 50% more healing(Blessed & Quick Recovery), 25% more crit damage, 25% damage mitigation, etc

All the Champion system does is makes everyone a house, and when everyone can be a house, it just comes down to numbers. the CP crushed small scale PVP more then anything else in the history of this game.

With the CP System right now, you can run 5 Heavy 3 Jewels and Sword and Board on any kind of Templar and be a champion. Have you ever tried to duo or 3 man PVP a 6-8 man group with 2 of 3 of those Templars in group with the build listed above with 35k health? The amount of damage it takes to kill one of those guys is incredible...they would have to be away from their keyboard in a CP campaign to die.

If im with another DK, or another Nightblade, its doesn't matter if I outplay them, you can't win...if there is two or more covering each other, forget about it, theres no chance. You have to run a specialized build that Negates and spams Roots(Encase) just to deal with those guys, and you can't specialize that specifically in 2-3 man PVP....this means these ridiclious CP set ups like the Templars i talk about above favor zergs and zerging.

My Sorc can triple stack shields infinitely on a CP campaign and never drop below 90% magic(thats without Engine Guardian or Lich) that's broken!

My Templar(with 5 Heavy 3 Jewels and Sword and Board) can wave his hand one time and go from 10% health to full instantly, and has infinite sustain, and can tank 6-8 people with impunity, keeping others alive and being more tanky then most tanks...that's broken!

You have Nightblades who can literally roll endlessly, and still dish out very good damage with nearly infinite stamina sustain. The CP system gives them so much sustain and damage they can simply not have to gear towards sustain and still do very very well.

You had guys like Ezareth(the best player to ever play ESO IMO, and I was lucky enough to call him a friend even if we were on diff factions mostly) tried to tell them on the 1.6 PTS that once folks got past 250-300 CP everyone would be a god and the setups possible would be ridiclious, and folks wouldn't listen.

If you were only allowed to have 200 CP active while in Cyrodiil it would be ok, but 600 is way too many...it allows you to invest in everything...on my DK in PVE i can have 100 in cost reduction and 100 in regen, its shouldn't be that way! you shouldn't be able to invest in everything the way it is now, and they just keep raising the cap.

Small scale PVP and 1vX on Azura Star is actually competitive and very satisfying, because no one is a god, if you make mistakes, you die. This is how it should be. Sypher had a rant about 8 months ago talking about why dueling sucks and how CP makes everything just a min-max game where everyone has everything, and he was just as right then as he is now.

Acting like CP adds some layer of skill to the game is comical.

I totally want them to keep a CP campaign for people who want to play that way, but I simply can't go back to the infinite sustain, infinite resource, perma tank, perma healer, instagib broken CP pvp. If folks want to play that way, fine, but i'll glady give up my 745+ and growing CP in return for pvp that feels significantly better, pvp where you have to give up damage to get sustain, have to give up sustain to get damage, have to give up damage to be tanky, etc....none of that is true on CP pvp...in CP pvp....everyone is simply a house, and when everyone is a house, it all comes down to numbers.

my 9 man group wiped 35 AD at Roe Mine last night, by outsmarting them, ultimi bombing them, and siege while they tried to choo choo train us with Destro Ultis,...smart flanking siege placement, and 7 coordinated Ulty Bombs rekt them, such a fight would not have been winnable on Trueflame CP due to the power creep of CP favoring numbers due to the "everyone is a house" nature of CP.

cjthibs wrote: »

LuminaLilly wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

I hear people say stuff like CP adds variety, i think its the opposite. You dont have to make choices on whether you want burst damage, high sustain, heals, be a tank, etc. Because with CP you can have it all. You dont have to make choices with your build much and choice between sustain or damage or survivability. I have no played a MMO ever where i could do insane DPS, heal myself back to full and be tanky all in one.

This. And as the cap rises, this will become even more noticeable.

CP also dissuades anyone below max level from trying PvP due to the enormous power spike that CP gives you.

And penalize players who worked hard for their CP? When I was a mere veteran rank 1 with 30 cp. I was thrown around like a pinball. What I did? I leveled up now no one can best me in Cyrodiil by themselves.

Because Cyrodiil is meant to be competitive. Having an advantage just because you played for longer isn't a competitive practice.