Open letter to all who believe CP should be permanently removed.

S1ipperyJim

PVP in ESO is not intended to be perfectly balanced. CP are intended to achieve the opposite of balancing players - more experienced players (CP being gained directly from experience in game) get more passives and skills which are an advantage against other players with less experience. This is a good thing. In an MMORPG experience should definitely result in a stronger more powerful and flexible character. Further, actual real life PVP aka 'war' is never balanced either on an individual soldier level or a national military force level. Even PVE in ESO is not balanced as the enemies faced in dungeons usually have superior health and damage to player characters. Embrace it, use the tools at your disposal (tactics, team play) and rise to the occasion, rather than bleating about balance and CP being a problem.

LuminaLilly

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

PVP in ESO is not intended to be perfectly balanced. CP are intended to achieve the opposite of balancing players - more experienced players (CP being gained directly from experience in game) get more passives and skills which are an advantage against other players with less experience. This is a good thing. In an MMORPG experience should definitely result in a stronger more powerful and flexible character. Further, actual real life PVP aka 'war' is never balanced either on an individual soldier level or a national military force level. Even PVE in ESO is not balanced as the enemies faced in dungeons usually have superior health and damage to player characters. Embrace it, use the tools at your disposal (tactics, team play) and rise to the occasion, rather than bleating about balance and CP being a problem.

What you said makes perfect sense. It'll just be alien to the rest of the community. They just wants what benefits them, thetc can't stand someone being better than them. But one things for sure. Removal of cp isn't made for "balance" but to troubleshoot an issue. So we'll get our cp back and keep em. Haters keep hating

Doctordarkspawn

LuminaLilly wrote: »

My hope in this community is far from restored. Everyone is wanting cp gone for good, why? Because they can't stand the fact someones actually better than them and are too lazy to put forth the time like the someone who killed you.

Asking for nerfs left and right. Soon we'll have level 10s being able to 1vX if zenimax kept listening to yall.

Its eso, not your other average mmo. Accept eso for what it is and GRIND.

Stop zerging and try some solo pvp. Your perspective will change

Bigger balance issues.

There is more to the game than PVP, and more to balance than your personal power.

Facts dont care about your feelings, neither does balance. Get over it. I refuse to accept and be a drone like you.

Darth_Apache

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

LuminaLilly wrote: »

Facts dont care about your feelings, neither does balance. Get over it. I refuse to accept and be a drone like you.

Ben Shapiro much bruh?

Firerock2

LuminaLilly wrote: »

My hope in this community is far from restored. Everyone is wanting cp gone for good, why? Because they can't stand the fact someones actually better than them

I prefer to play games where a person's skill decides how good they are and not how many hours they can afford to sink into the game. Makes for more interesting fights

LuminaLilly

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

LuminaLilly wrote: »

My hope in this community is far from restored. Everyone is wanting cp gone for good, why? Because they can't stand the fact someones actually better than them and are too lazy to put forth the time like the someone who killed you.

Asking for nerfs left and right. Soon we'll have level 10s being able to 1vX if zenimax kept listening to yall.

Its eso, not your other average mmo. Accept eso for what it is and GRIND.

Stop zerging and try some solo pvp. Your perspective will change

Bigger balance issues.

There is more to the game than PVP, and more to balance than your personal power.

Facts dont care about your feelings, neither does balance. Get over it. I refuse to accept and be a drone like you.

Your feefees don't matter either, on Friday were getting our cp back and keeping it. Haters keep hating.

Ocelot9x

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

I hear people say stuff like CP adds variety, i think its the opposite. You dont have to make choices on whether you want burst damage, high sustain, heals, be a tank, etc. Because with CP you can have it all. You dont have to make choices with your build much and choice between sustain or damage or survivability. I have no played a MMO ever where i could do insane DPS, heal myself back to full and be tanky all in one.

THIS. I consider myself an hardcore PvP player, 20+ hours in cyro/week. Capped cp and max equip obviously, and this week I'm having so much fun (zerglings aside).
Without cp good players are still capable of 1vX and with a good group you can still wipe 15+ people. The only difference that makes everything so funny is that the game is less forgiving. You do an error and boom you're died. Now max cp baddies can't survive just holding block/rolling endlessly,but need to actively git gud

kyle.wilson

Ocelot9x wrote: »

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

I hear people say stuff like CP adds variety, i think its the opposite. You dont have to make choices on whether you want burst damage, high sustain, heals, be a tank, etc. Because with CP you can have it all. You dont have to make choices with your build much and choice between sustain or damage or survivability. I have no played a MMO ever where i could do insane DPS, heal myself back to full and be tanky all in one.

THIS. I consider myself an hardcore PvP player, 20+ hours in cyro/week. Capped cp and max equip obviously, and this week I'm having so much fun (zerglings aside).
Without cp good players are still capable of 1vX and with a good group you can still wipe 15+ people. The only difference that makes everything so funny is that the game is less forgiving. You do an error and boom you're died. Now max cp baddies can't survive just holding block/rolling endlessly,but need to actively git gud

I've yet to see a 1vxer survive 2 people this week. Then again, I don't hang around many people new to pvp.
Most 1vx videos are obviously 1 person against 5-6 players with no clue how to play the game. I've watched streamers post vids where the enemy not even once tried to cc or stun them. Its like they are waiting their turn to die.
Most of the time 1vx is a lot of running till they can isolate the 1 person that is willing to chase. Most of the 1vxers I know have been zerging lately, and I've spoke with them about it.

TequilaFire

LuminaLilly wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

LuminaLilly wrote: »

My hope in this community is far from restored. Everyone is wanting cp gone for good, why? Because they can't stand the fact someones actually better than them and are too lazy to put forth the time like the someone who killed you.

Asking for nerfs left and right. Soon we'll have level 10s being able to 1vX if zenimax kept listening to yall.

Its eso, not your other average mmo. Accept eso for what it is and GRIND.

Stop zerging and try some solo pvp. Your perspective will change

Bigger balance issues.

There is more to the game than PVP, and more to balance than your personal power.

Facts dont care about your feelings, neither does balance. Get over it. I refuse to accept and be a drone like you.

Your feefees don't matter either, on Friday were getting our cp back and keeping it. Haters keep hating.

It runs February 27 – March 6, so make that Monday.
We get the weekend!

Doctordarkspawn

LuminaLilly wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

LuminaLilly wrote: »

My hope in this community is far from restored. Everyone is wanting cp gone for good, why? Because they can't stand the fact someones actually better than them and are too lazy to put forth the time like the someone who killed you.

Asking for nerfs left and right. Soon we'll have level 10s being able to 1vX if zenimax kept listening to yall.

Its eso, not your other average mmo. Accept eso for what it is and GRIND.

Stop zerging and try some solo pvp. Your perspective will change

Bigger balance issues.

There is more to the game than PVP, and more to balance than your personal power.

Facts dont care about your feelings, neither does balance. Get over it. I refuse to accept and be a drone like you.

Your feefees don't matter either, on Friday were getting our cp back and keeping it. Haters keep hating.

Yeah, and I'm interested to see how ZOS uses the feedback. I know alot of people are going 'latency is much better' with the No CP changes.

And let me briefly explain in very basic terms why that is. One of the reason server lag is what it is is the ammount of stuff, the server has to render at one time. Like, say, passives. And passives are a big issue. The server was originally designed for all the base game passives and some softcaps, likely to boost server performance. The more passives the game has to keep track of, serverwide, the more latency there will be.

TLDR: The more variables you ask the server to keep in mind and manage at any given time, the worse performance will be. Y'know when you load up on programs heavy on RAM and your compy grinds to a halt? This is much the same thing.

So not only, are we seeing alot less of the 'DK 1vx's going around, and yes I did a little PVP just to see, had some fun, we're seeing alot better performance. I true, truely hope ZOS impliments it perminantly. You seem to be taking it as a personal attack, as if the world revolves around you. Trust me, your not the center of the universe and the change is being made for reasons beyond you.

(Also, yes, I did steal the quote from Mr. Shapiro. S'agood quote. Or saying, rather. A very good one to use, in threads and conversations like this, which are mostly driven by emotion.)

KoreanAwtamatic

If your in a group of 10 or more your cp should be deactivated. That would help the solo plsyers and small scale groups....

Renosence

Skill is just how well someone uses the tools at their disposal in a specific situation. So if that happens to be 600 cps and a proc set so be it. If it's heavy armor alright! People forget this game is an elder scrolls game and that the expectation in PvP or PvE is that you can be powerful while building the way you desire. The way that is done is by taking advantage of the limitations and strengths the game gives you.

As a side note for PvP- wether you have cps or not a group of coordinated individuals almost always has a great measure of success in PvP. So when I get blown up because a DK uses a cc right before another drops a meteor I can't blame cps. Numbers and coordination are what AvA is all about. Group play. Duels and soon the battlegrounds are for small scale or individual PvP. Many streamers and websites have build guides and advice on how to take advantage of the games limitations.

imredneckson

I have 670CP and have played since beta but if ZOS get rid of CP I am perfectly fine with that.

SlayerTheDragon

The best PVP is where gear and other sources like CP do not count. All players off a class do exactly the same damage - this promotes skill, not grinding.


Also, remove AP and reward CROWNS instead.

Kobiwan_shinobi

Waffennacht wrote: »

The thing is, even with only 1 hour to play a day, you can still reach CP cap in a reasonable amount of time.

"I'll never reach the cap" just isn't true

Define 'reasonable about of time'.

By my calculations, playing 1 hour per day, it would still take about 1 year... I wouldn't call that reasonable.

Auros

ah ... no.

kyle.wilson

SlayerTheDragon wrote: »

The best PVP is where gear and other sources like CP do not count. All players off a class do exactly the same damage - this promotes skill, not grinding.


Also, remove AP and reward CROWNS instead.

I know of 0 games like this outside of 1v1 fighting games like mortal combat. And, those have a playability of about an hour, outside of people with the delusions of greatness.
Even FPS have different weapons with different values.

kyle.wilson

imredneckson wrote: »

I have 670CP and have played since beta but if ZOS get rid of CP I am perfectly fine with that.

Zerglings would gain the most from the removal of cp.
Legions of Mordor is a zerg guild < Pact Militia

G0ku

Why do we even discuss the complete removal of CP in pvp? There is a campaign available without CP so no need to remove them?

It´s a matter of choice, don´t cry saying you´re underpowered because low CP when you got a way of circumventing by going into the non-CP campaign. Even discussing this is just stupid...

Imo the only thing that would bring back some diversity would be the reintroduction of soft-caps.

And btw lag in pvp existed long before CPs were even a thing. Sometimes I get the impression many ppl discussing this are playing for 2 weeks....

Huyen

Honestly after reading all replies to the OP, I believe it isnt the CP that is causing most issues for regular players like me.
Yesterday (because of the double AP event) I decided to give pvp a shot to get caltrops and vigor so I could use them in pve.
What hit me the most (and I'm not joking) are 2 things: the destro-staff ultimate, and the fact that everyone is wearing the same gear / skill setup to kill others. Instead of messing around with CP, they should either change the Impenetrable trait, or rework all other sets (apart from heavy) to work as well in a open-pvp enviroment like Cyrodiil. (Basicly all I could do as a pve-player in Cyro was hide in a corner and provide some heals, tag along with the group and hope I would get my AP quick enough to get the hell out.)

ChildOfLight

Another aspect is that CP are absolutely necessary to balance races performance in both PvP and PvE.

It's the only way some races can compete with the most popular ones. Example given, no sense to run an imperial if you can get better performance with a redguard for stam based characters (in pvp mainly)

Cp are the only way to balance this.

Otherwise, welcome to Elder Redguard/HighElf Online.!

Ultimate_Overlord

@LuminaLilly Ok, after reading all this arrogant nonsense of yours, i want to ask what is your point exactly?
You keep talking about "getting better", "investing time" in a way of grinding cp, but how is that connected to player skill? You dont get better by grinding cp, you get more stats to cover up what youre bad at, you dont invest time into getting good in pvp, you invest time into getting good at aoeing mobs.
Not liking cp makes me a zergling? Making such offensive generalizations only discredits any sensible points you had.
"Try solo pvp"? Im a pc player, ive been playing solo before you even started playing eso, as many others have, so if theres anyone who should be telling ppl about solo pvp its expereinced pc players, not arrogant console players who are proud of their pvp rank and the time theyve spent killing mobs.
1vxing clueless scrubs by having a huge advantage only makes YOU a mediocre "zergbad" who is scared of losing his/her crutch.

cpuScientist

The CP doesn't help but doesn't hinder as much as y'all think. It's the anti cheat. Simply out, alot of calculations were done client side made the server side load much easier, now thanks to cheaters they had to be moved to server side thus more stress on the server. This is the single biggest cause of lag, not frame drops due to weak personal systems (that's on the player) but actual ping spiking lag, that's due to good ol' cheaters.

Knootewoot

I always play on Azure, although I am at CP-cap. I just like it more there and my friends play there, lag is less then Trueflame.

But yesterday Azura was laggy as hell. It's not the CP, it's patch 1.2.4, zergs and bad coding.

I do not want CP to go and it is not confirmed. This vertical progression is need for people who need progression to have fun to play. Although I am not one of them ( I don't even need levels. I play for fun to PvP, quest and just have a good time) CP needs to stay for PvE, hehe.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Zyrudin

LuminaLilly wrote: »

CP adds variety to this game, to fine tune your builds and pick a certain setup that enhances your current gear.

I played in azuras star and maintained 2nd and top 5 in emp leaderboards throughout 2016, so I have experience playing with and without cp.

Lately I've seen people believing that pvp is better off without champion points, and ya know, that's fine, if that's how you like to play, Azuras star is always hiring.

But this cp removal is bringing out the worst in people. It's confirmed zenimax is returning (corrected typo) cp at the end of this week, but we have too many people spreading rumors that they will permenantly remove cp. Its NOT confirmed by ZOS so don't count on it. They took down cp for a good reason, not just because some streamer told them to.

Cp is a great way to continue character progression after lvl 50 and playing around with them, being you can change em any time, is fun, for both pvp and pve, so why permenantly remove them?

I personally like to keep a balance and have azuras as my guest and some CP campaign as my home. I, you, and many others have worked hard for our cp and gives us the edge in pvp.

My recommendation: if you hate CP so much, go to azuras star, it's been non cp for close to a year now.

P.S. I do support ZOS doing this solely to attempt to screen for a technical issue.

I am actually in favor of keeping CP's, but it seems that you believe CP's are only relevant in PvP.
This is incorrect. They add a sense of progression to PvE, even if you never step inside PvP, and provide customization choices that were otherwise missing.

The damage and stat caps should make a come back, though, in my opinion, if balance between player builds is to be achieved.

Nevertheless, what this event seems to have shown in terms of reaction is that people who prefer to mostly PvP are somewhat fearful that Zenimax may change something more to try to actually motivate PvE'rs to go to Cyrodiil, for more than just doing time to get locked skills or just try to avoid being seen while getting shards and lorebooks. It is true that they have been attracting fresh new PvE'rs to the game and have even been appealing to the more so-called casual side of the player base, who are mostly not really interested in competing with other players.

Knootewoot

G0ku wrote: »

And btw lag in pvp existed long before CPs were even a thing. Sometimes I get the impression many ppl discussing this are playing for 2 weeks....

Aye, people have forgotten 1.2.4. It was the end of PvP as we knew it from beta.

They have tried removing Torchbugs, no result
Let's remove the deer, no result
They tried breaking up Zergs with "zergbuster" was not the issue before and didn't work

They just do now know what causes it (it's the anti-cheat then went from client side to server side) and now try different things to let us know they are "working on it" so they just try to push some buttons: "eeeh, let's see what this button does"

No CP was on there mind, and guess what, it's not it. But still, at least they are now gathering information to find out what it is.

Egonieser

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

I hear people say stuff like CP adds variety, i think its the opposite. You dont have to make choices on whether you want burst damage, high sustain, heals, be a tank, etc. Because with CP you can have it all. You dont have to make choices with your build much and choice between sustain or damage or survivability. I have no played a MMO ever where i could do insane DPS, heal myself back to full and be tanky all in one.

That's what i've been saying from the start of CP system's inception.
People who claim that CP adds variety have obviously no clue how builds and min/maxing works. They probably just chug along with one character, killing some mobs, picking some flowers with blue and green gear and claim that CP system is fine and it adds variety.
Maybe to them, to their subpar and un-directional (yes i just made that up) builds it does add a feeling of a "variety" as their base stats are so low and any addition to it might feel like a huge change in a certain direction. But it certainly does not apply to min-maxing optimal PvP builds and hardcore PvE Raiding builds.

CP allows to cover your character's/builds inherent weaknesses (Which devs obviously didn't account for when making either said sets or the CP system itself) taking any variety and risk vs reward out of the equation.
In the old days you either went DPS, or you went Tank or Heal. You didn't do it all, you had to make sacrifices. Wanted that insanse DPS? Sure, go ahead and have it, but beware you will run out of resources in a few seconds and die from a wet noodle slap as all your focus went into DPS.
Same for tanking/healing - yeah you had virtually indestructible tanks that could take on 10 or more people, but at what cost? Their attacks felt like wet fish slaps, you just stood there afk while they were trying to inflict any kind of noticeable damage to you - that was their weakness.

Now with CP and broken sets that didn't take CP into account, what do we see?
*DPS builds with absolutely insane damage and sustain for near infinite fight times/dodgerolls etc (if done right)
*Tanks with all their positive traits and ability to dish out DPS close to dedicated DPS builds while not having the drawbacks of being squishy/low on sustain.

Now please, Explain OP - HOW is CP adding variety in this game? Please, i want to see an actual and factual argument where CP adds any variety instead of doing the exact opposite. Because as it stands now, CP has destroyed any and all variety and shoehorned people into FoTM builds which are literally "Jack-of-all-Trades" builds, good for everything or you are useless for anything remotely competitive, especially PvP.
In PvE group play you can somewhat get away with it as you have teammates to cover you and your weaknesses to an extent, as you will have people dropping shards, healing you, shooting magicka orbs, elemental drains etc to help, but PvP is too chaotic and unpredictable and nobody will be asking you if you need shards or orbs for your sustain as nobody will have the time for that. You either pull your own weight or you die.


Now with the temporary removal (on a wide scale) of CP you can clearly see the huge, boarderline broken, benefits CP system can give people. Those who were playing on totally broken and godlike builds are now easy pickings, they die - fast. They can't fight indefinitely anymore either. That's because CP allowed them to be all-at-once which is the exact opposite of variety. They were so reliant upon CP to cover the weaknesses they don't know how to play without it. (Not counting those people who play on Azura daily and have specifically built sets and combos for no CP fights to begin with - hats off to them!).
All those "high ranking gods" we used to see around are now exposed for what they are - slightly above average players who used CP and broken cheese sets in tandem to create absurd, godlike builds. Even Sypher himself touched on this subject some time ago, most people have.

For CP system to be worthwhile ZoS either needs to:
Add Stat caps
or
Change the set/gear bonuses to account for CP being there.
or
Allow only to specialize in one CP tree (mage/warrior/thief) but not all three at once, forcing people to think what they want to specialize in, and build around accordingly. Now that would add variety as you can't just stack DPS/Sustain/Tanking/Healing attributes from the CP trees all at once, but be forced to really think what you want to become at the end of it all.

Knootewoot

Egonieser wrote: »

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

I hear people say stuff like CP adds variety, i think its the opposite. You dont have to make choices on whether you want burst damage, high sustain, heals, be a tank, etc. Because with CP you can have it all. You dont have to make choices with your build much and choice between sustain or damage or survivability. I have no played a MMO ever where i could do insane DPS, heal myself back to full and be tanky all in one.

That's what i've been saying from the start of CP system's inception.
People who claim that CP adds variety have obviously no clue how builds and min/maxing works. They probably just chug along with one character, killing some mobs, picking some flowers with blue and green gear and claim that CP system is fine and it adds variety.
Maybe to them, to their subpar and un-directional (yes i just made that up) builds it does add a feeling of a "variety" as their base stats are so low and any addition to it might feel like a huge change in a certain direction. But it certainly does not apply to min-maxing optimal PvP builds and hardcore PvE Raiding builds.
CP allows to cover your character's/builds inherent weaknesses (Which devs obviously didn't account for when making either said sets or the CP system itself) taking any variety and risk vs reward out of the equation.
In the old days you either went DPS, or you went Tank or Heal. You didn't do it all, you had to make sacrifices. Wanted that insanse DPS? Sure, go ahead and have it, but beware you will run out of resources in a few seconds and die from a wet noodle slap as all your focus went into DPS.
Same for tanking/healing - yeah you had virtually indestructible tanks that could take on 10 or more people, but at what cost? Their attacks felt like wet fish slaps, you just stood there afk while they were trying to inflict any kind of noticeable damage to you - that was their weakness.

Now with CP and broken sets that didn't take CP into account, what do we see?
*DPS builds with absolutely insane damage and sustain for near infinite fight times/dodgerolls etc (if done right)
*Tanks with all their positive traits and ability to dish out DPS close to dedicated DPS builds while not having the drawbacks of being squishy/low on sustain.

Now please, Explain OP - HOW is CP adding variety in this game? Please, i want to see an actual and factual argument where CP adds any variety instead of doing the exact opposite. Because as it stands now, CP has destroyed any and all variety and shoehorned people into FoTM builds which are literally "Jack-of-all-Trades" builds, good for everything or you are useless for anything remotely competitive, especially PvP.
In PvE group play you can somewhat get away with it as you have teammates to cover you and your weaknesses to an extent, as you will have people dropping shards, healing you, shooting magicka orbs, elemental drains etc to help, but PvP is too chaotic and unpredictable and nobody will be asking you if you need shards or orbs for your sustain as nobody will have the time for that. You either pull your own weight or you die.

CP could give variety if there was a real limit on it. Let's say 300. Then people have to put CP in specific trees like Skyrim had. But in the end, after 15 years, everybody will have 3600 and have everything maxed. Everybody is the same.

Same for skill points. There should be a cap so you can not have every passive or skill unlocked. Then you have diversity.

Like the 250 skill point system of SWG.

But the downside is.. with a limit there is always the FOTM build and people will always choose that. So even then diversity will only be with the people who want to play in their own unique style.

AnviOfVai

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

I hear people say stuff like CP adds variety, i think its the opposite. You dont have to make choices on whether you want burst damage, high sustain, heals, be a tank, etc. Because with CP you can have it all. You dont have to make choices with your build much and choice between sustain or damage or survivability. I have no played a MMO ever where i could do insane DPS, heal myself back to full and be tanky all in one.

Well if CP does get removed I want a free skill reset and character attributes sent to my mail box. My characters rely on the champion point system, especially my tank. Last night I noticed how much she relies on stamina recovery. Once again CP is EARNED. Heck I still have not reached 500 yet. ):