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Gap closer cost penalty? - make kiting great again!
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GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭willlienellson wrote: »
People need to stop asking for nerfs instead of asking for broken things to be fixed.If you don't think the gap closer snare, at the very least, is a horrendously broken mechanics
All the forum threads that are PvP focused are just filled with 1vX'ers that just want the value of X increased.
I'm talking about the tanks that are fighting 10 people are upset that they eventually die after feared.
Or thetroll builds being chased by 10 people upset that people don't run out of resources fast enough while they make laps around a rock.
I have no sympathy for people calling for nerfs to the few effective ways to combat their cancer builds. Nuff said.
Were not advocating for those builds. Were advocating for fluid pvp. Gap close snares that you cannot mitigate make pvp feel terrible. Gap closer range in my opinion also makes pvp terrible.
Are you trying to say 10 people gap closer spamming everywhere basically bunny hoping player to player is healthy gameplay? Hell the gap closer snare wouldn't be an issue if we had gap closer immunity preventing that from happening.
PS4 NA DC2 -
KramUzibra✭✭✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »willlienellson wrote: »
People need to stop asking for nerfs instead of asking for broken things to be fixed.If you don't think the gap closer snare, at the very least, is a horrendously broken mechanics
All the forum threads that are PvP focused are just filled with 1vX'ers that just want the value of X increased.
I'm talking about the tanks that are fighting 10 people are upset that they eventually die after feared.
Or thetroll builds being chased by 10 people upset that people don't run out of resources fast enough while they make laps around a rock.
I have no sympathy for people calling for nerfs to the few effective ways to combat their cancer builds. Nuff said.
Were not advocating for those builds. Were advocating for fluid pvp. Gap close snares that you cannot mitigate make pvp feel terrible. Gap closer range in my opinion also makes pvp terrible.
Are you trying to say 10 people gap closer spamming everywhere basically bunny hoping player to player is healthy gameplay? Hell the gap closer snare wouldn't be an issue if we had gap closer immunity preventing that from happening.
Wouldn't this be comparable to 10 ranged players snipe spam and or heavy destro weave all at once and you die.2 -
willlienellson✭✭✭✭✭
The original premise of this thread was to increase the resource cost of gap closers. Everyone knows they screwed up gap closers several months ago in an attempt to fix a few that were performing badly. That's not the premise of this thread.GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »Were not advocating for those builds. Were advocating for fluid pvp. Gap close snares that you cannot mitigate make pvp feel terrible.
Maybe OP would like to make a new thread that is on point and is titled something like, "please fix gap closers so they perform like they did before X patch"
But instead, we have this "help me 1xX better" thread which is a joke.
Scaling cost increases for gap closers? Really? I'm calling BS on that. Outright.
I'm not trying to say anything. I think I've been pretty clear.GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »Are you trying to say 10 people gap closer spamming everywhere basically bunny hoping player to player is healthy gameplay?
I think when 10 people are all targeting you at the same time you should have almost no chance of surviving.
Is that clear enough? Gap closers. Ranged attacks. AoEs. Whatever.
You guys aren't even pretending this is about how mechanics operating in even fights. The entire context of this thread is "when 5 people are attacking me". "When 10 people are gap closing me".
Thread's a joke. But I think I already said that.3 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭KramUzibra wrote: »GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »willlienellson wrote: »
People need to stop asking for nerfs instead of asking for broken things to be fixed.If you don't think the gap closer snare, at the very least, is a horrendously broken mechanics
All the forum threads that are PvP focused are just filled with 1vX'ers that just want the value of X increased.
I'm talking about the tanks that are fighting 10 people are upset that they eventually die after feared.
Or thetroll builds being chased by 10 people upset that people don't run out of resources fast enough while they make laps around a rock.
I have no sympathy for people calling for nerfs to the few effective ways to combat their cancer builds. Nuff said.
Were not advocating for those builds. Were advocating for fluid pvp. Gap close snares that you cannot mitigate make pvp feel terrible. Gap closer range in my opinion also makes pvp terrible.
Are you trying to say 10 people gap closer spamming everywhere basically bunny hoping player to player is healthy gameplay? Hell the gap closer snare wouldn't be an issue if we had gap closer immunity preventing that from happening.
Wouldn't this be comparable to 10 ranged players snipe spam and or heavy destro weave all at once and you die.
You could roll dodge all those attacks technically. You cannot ignore gap closer snare.PS4 NA DC1 -
Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There should be a cost penalty on making nerf threads. Or for every nerf, they should unnerf two things that shouldn't have been nerfed in the first place.
Here's how you make kiting great again without more nerfs.- Remove the terrible, broken, unpurgable, unCC-immunable, disgusting snare off of gap closers. Delete it. I don't care how it looks without it. Game was better when it didn't exist.
- Fix broken mist-form so it isn't slowed by gap-closer spam, snares, or whatever the hell else breaks this ability that is supposed to be complete CC immunity.
- Re-think the nerfs to streak and dodge roll. I would love to revert both completely but there is too much regen in PvP now. You would need to cap regen at 1300 (which is around where the softcaps used to be) in order for these skill not to be abused but...
... the real way to control gap closer spam, streak spam, dodge roll spam, all skill spam, is to control RESOURCES and the reign in the damage and power creep caused by the terrible champion system. Not by further nerfs.
The reason 1.5 is so beloved by long time PvP'ers is that it was a resource management meta, not this Tank/gank/burst COD bunnyhopping garbage meta. Skill played a role because you managed your resources or you ran out and died. As long as the champion system is allowed to further pollute our gameplay with high damage scaling stats and unlimited regen, everything you love will get nerf after nerf after nerf.
Sorcs may rejoice when NBs get nerfed but the nerf bat comes for us all eventually. Nothing is safe until the Champion System is balanced and put under control.Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on January 20, 2017 6:02AM4 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭KramUzibra wrote: »KramUzibra wrote: »thankyourat wrote: »willlienellson wrote: »Where is the LOL button when you need it?
Gap closers aren't anywhere the most damaging skills in the game. If gap closer spam is your primary concern that tells me you are very likely running one of these "catch me if you can" troll builds that are designed to just make people chase you for 20 minutes until someone is actually dumb enough to run out literally 100% of their resources. Alternatively you're trying to just range people down. In that case, you are in no play to complain about it being hard to "get away" from people when you are just ranging them. :-/
Seriously, I'm not usually this harsh, but I would suggest getting a "balanced" build or start cheating like a lot of the "toggle on/off 100% dodge chance infinite resource" guys that are doing similar things.
TLDR: I haven't disagreed this hard with anything I've read on the forums in a long while. If the problems with dodge stacking/exploiting/toggling persist and they made gap closers cost more....I imagine that would be the last straw for a lot of people.
There is so much wrong with what you said. If you play mostly solo PvP the gap closer and gap closer snare is probably the most harmful thing in the game. It allows groups to just pin you down and kill you. No one is trying to have people chase then for 20 minutes lol but if a group wants to chase me from the aleswell mine to bruma and die in the process because they don't know how to manage their resources that's their problem. No one is really building a "catch me if you can troll build" they may be just building for solo PvP, and are good at managing their resources. Shouldn't range builds be good at escaping and repositioning if not why not just play melee and do more damage. Gap closers should be a thing, but they shouldn't be so strong that they always make range builds fight in melee range. Range builds have a penalty that their spammable dps is lower than melee builds melee builds show there for have a penalty for SPAMMING gap closers. Which is completely different than using a gap closer skillfully. And then the snare from gap closers should've never existed. There is no counterplay to it
Right, tho?
All I'm asking is a chance to duck behind some los and set up a burst(or just stop their friends spamming me with ranged attacks) while 6 peoplelemmings blindly crit rush me.
How about you not engage 6 enemies. Try a little situational awareness, try not to put yourself in a situation that would get you ganked by multiple targets. Even if your able to get off a burst doesn't mean your going to 1vx the lot of them.
Idc about dying at all bud or about getting some 1vX clip. I care about having a fighting chance, when I'm positioned correctly, to be able to deal ranged damage, without getting locked down by one person pressing 1 button that allows them to hit me with an excessive snare and close the gap. Snares and gap closers should be separate, or work like lotus fan or stampede where a snare is applied upon contact.
If I have los on 5 people in a group of 6 for example and unload on the 1 person who can see me/that I can see, I should have a chance to kite them even after he uses his GCD on a gap closer.
If you want a snare on a gap closer, take a morph that applies a snare and have some kind of brain to ensure you can make use of said snare.
All we're doing now is rewarding mindless gameplay.
Edit: STILL WAITING TO HEAR ABOUT THAT RELIABLE RANGED STUN
I agree the snare should apply on contact. Why isn't The destro stun reliable?
Its a very very slow very obvious projectile and it can be reflected or dodge rolled. Gap closer snare literally has 0 counters, if you're in gap closer range you can be locked down by snares.willlienellson wrote: »
Its a hypothetical, the same applies for any amount of enemies or in an XvX situation. The gap closer snare also contributes to the Destro ult being so OP, even though the damage is sooooo high, you could at least stand a chance of getting out of it if you couldn't just be gap closer spammed to get snared in it.
I'm running 7 light armor mageblade or sorc for pvp. I'm not sure what cancer you think I'm running.
5 lich
5 spinner
2 Slimecraw/pirate king
If you're calling that cancer then you gotta explain what's not.
Edited by Lexxypwns on January 20, 2017 6:10AM1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Solariken
I do not see a need. The reasoning is not the same. One is defensive and the other is offensive.
Much of it comes down to finding a build what works well for the situations one finds themselves in and figuring out how to use the build properly. PvP is very much about adapting to the situation, not having the situation nerfed to fit ones wishes.1 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »@Solariken
I do not see a need. The reasoning is not the same. One is defensive and the other is offensive.
Much of it comes down to finding a build what works well for the situations one finds themselves in and figuring out how to use the build properly. PvP is very much about adapting to the situation, not having the situation nerfed to fit ones wishes.
To me it seems quite obvious that the scale is tipped heavily toward the offensive gap closer and heavily against ranged DD. This is glaringly obvious. There are simply not enough options for keeping enemies at range. I wish the solution were as simple as "adapting to the situation" but the fact is the only two effective tools are LOS (situational) and shield stacking (sorc or bust).
Edited by Solariken on January 20, 2017 6:25AM0 -
Wolfchild07✭✭✭✭✭Or remove increasing cost penalties. Medium armour plus speed buff just about keeps up with that 10m streak anyway.0 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KramUzibra wrote: »GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »willlienellson wrote: »
People need to stop asking for nerfs instead of asking for broken things to be fixed.If you don't think the gap closer snare, at the very least, is a horrendously broken mechanics
All the forum threads that are PvP focused are just filled with 1vX'ers that just want the value of X increased.
I'm talking about the tanks that are fighting 10 people are upset that they eventually die after feared.
Or thetroll builds being chased by 10 people upset that people don't run out of resources fast enough while they make laps around a rock.
I have no sympathy for people calling for nerfs to the few effective ways to combat their cancer builds. Nuff said.
Were not advocating for those builds. Were advocating for fluid pvp. Gap close snares that you cannot mitigate make pvp feel terrible. Gap closer range in my opinion also makes pvp terrible.
Are you trying to say 10 people gap closer spamming everywhere basically bunny hoping player to player is healthy gameplay? Hell the gap closer snare wouldn't be an issue if we had gap closer immunity preventing that from happening.
Wouldn't this be comparable to 10 ranged players snipe spam and or heavy destro weave all at once and you die.
No because snipe can be dodged . Heavy destro can be blocked .0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭KramUzibra wrote: »willlienellson wrote: »Where is the LOL button when you need it?
Gap closers aren't anywhere the most damaging skills in the game. If gap closer spam is your primary concern that tells me you are very likely running one of these "catch me if you can" troll builds that are designed to just make people chase you for 20 minutes until someone is actually dumb enough to run out literally 100% of their resources. Alternatively you're trying to just range people down. In that case, you are in no play to complain about it being hard to "get away" from people when you are just ranging them. :-/
Seriously, I'm not usually this harsh, but I would suggest getting a "balanced" build or start cheating like a lot of the "toggle on/off 100% dodge chance infinite resource" guys that are doing similar things.
TLDR: I haven't disagreed this hard with anything I've read on the forums in a long while. If the problems with dodge stacking/exploiting/toggling persist and they made gap closers cost more....I imagine that would be the last straw for a lot of people.
If you don't think the gap closer snare, at the very least, is a horrendously broken mechanics then you're obviously blind
Kites are already annoying, and most players can kite multiple targets at a time by utilizing stuns, roll dodge and line of site. Kiting is fine.
Name 1 reliable ranged stun?
Why, when I have snare, root, and CC immunity, should someone hitting a button stop me moving my character so that his 5 man small group can all catch and xv1 me then talk about how awesome they all are in TS or on stream
Reliable range cc:
Stonefist, petrify, scatter shot, destructive touch, defensive rune, agony, cripple will immobilize, Piercing javelin, luminous shard disorients. Defensive posture is reliable depending on your situation.0 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
I spam reflective scales as reaction and survive, what i'm doing wrong?KramUzibra wrote: »GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »willlienellson wrote: »
People need to stop asking for nerfs instead of asking for broken things to be fixed.If you don't think the gap closer snare, at the very least, is a horrendously broken mechanics
All the forum threads that are PvP focused are just filled with 1vX'ers that just want the value of X increased.
I'm talking about the tanks that are fighting 10 people are upset that they eventually die after feared.
Or thetroll builds being chased by 10 people upset that people don't run out of resources fast enough while they make laps around a rock.
I have no sympathy for people calling for nerfs to the few effective ways to combat their cancer builds. Nuff said.
Were not advocating for those builds. Were advocating for fluid pvp. Gap close snares that you cannot mitigate make pvp feel terrible. Gap closer range in my opinion also makes pvp terrible.
Are you trying to say 10 people gap closer spamming everywhere basically bunny hoping player to player is healthy gameplay? Hell the gap closer snare wouldn't be an issue if we had gap closer immunity preventing that from happening.
Wouldn't this be comparable to 10 ranged players snipe spam and or heavy destro weave all at once and you die.
Gapcloser spam to ensnare target isn't healthy, isn't "normal" and only exploiters may say anything positive about it.
Edited by Sugaroverdose on January 20, 2017 7:42AM1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Just remove the dumb super-snare and I'd be fine with gap-closer spam.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.6 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Wait a second. Stamina builds with potions/bows and right CP can sprint from Arrius till BRK with speed of fully upgraded mount while being immune to snares and roots by Shuffle... So, I just must stand there and watch how they easily run away from absolutely anyone with zero problems while being immune to any counter? No, thx.0 -
MalakithAlamahdi✭✭✭✭✭KramUzibra wrote: »Also there is no root immunity.
Elusive Mist, Shuffle and Rapid Maneuvers all give root immunity EXCEPT if people are spamming gap closers on you.
Elusive mist gets snared by gabclosers.2 -
Lieblingsjunge✭✭✭✭✭
✭Until you've played a Magicka Templar or a Magicka DK, you do not understand the issue of gap-closer-spam used against you.
Mist Form is the only form of escape they have - if 2 or 3 people can mindlessly spam the *censored* out of gap-close - that's enough to permanently snare. Which *does* break the intention of "Root immunity in Elusive Mist Form". LoS-ing doesn't really matter, as you can jump over rocks - through trees.
Streak is Sorc's gap-closer & that got increased cost. Roll-dodge got increased cost. There's literally no reason for a gap-closer to not have an increase in cost. You get a penalty for using Mist Form(No magicka rec.)There's literally no reason - no penalty - no danger combined with spamming gap-closer.
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SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Increasing cost is stupid on everything, there shouldnt be any punish for gapslocing from target to target. What the game is need some form of breathing room once you get gap closed. You could stack all speed/dodge roll boosts in the game and still any gapcloser could break free of cc and gapclose you again before you leave their range.
Once someone starts gap closing you you either have to fight em in the range they prefer or run away, you cant never create distance AND fight em (if youre ranged). You can dodge roll/streak, attack, dodge roll/streak, attack but ultimately every time you do you spend more and more resources, while gapcloser regens that cost during jump lol (thanks CPs)Edited by SodanTok on January 20, 2017 12:00PM0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭willlienellson wrote: »
He does not want to autowin.
He´s just arguing that being in gapcloser range for 6 people should not equal an automatic win for them.
If you get into a fight against 6 people running away is probably your best option. I think that should be an option in eso aswell. Currently because of gapcloser mechanics it´s not. Not at all.<Noricum>
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Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 505 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »@Solariken
I do not see a need. The reasoning is not the same. One is defensive and the other is offensive.
Much of it comes down to finding a build what works well for the situations one finds themselves in and figuring out how to use the build properly. PvP is very much about adapting to the situation, not having the situation nerfed to fit ones wishes.
To me it seems quite obvious that the scale is tipped heavily toward the offensive gap closer and heavily against ranged DD. This is glaringly obvious. There are simply not enough options for keeping enemies at range. I wish the solution were as simple as "adapting to the situation" but the fact is the only two effective tools are LOS (situational) and shield stacking (sorc or bust).
@Solariken
I think you miss the distinguishing differences. Gap closers that you want nerfed are attacks. Dodge roll and streak tend to be more evasive. Opposite uses in general.
Not player uses a gap closer to evade, as a rule. What your asking for is is a nerf to a skill used for an attack. A skill that really doesn't do huge damage and anyone stunned by them gains immunity for a few seconds.
It's a matter of figuring out your counter to their build and turning the tables. Basically figure out how to kill them since that's what PvP is all about.1 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
Lol, magplar and magdk struggles from it 10x times more, seems like someone newer plays solo/small-scaleWait a second. Stamina builds with potions/bows and right CP can sprint from Arrius till BRK with speed of fully upgraded mount while being immune to snares and roots by Shuffle... So, I just must stand there and watch how they easily run away from absolutely anyone with zero problems while being immune to any counter? No, thx.
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Lol, magplar and magdk struggles from it 10x times more, seems like someone newer plays solo/small-scaleWait a second. Stamina builds with potions/bows and right CP can sprint from Arrius till BRK with speed of fully upgraded mount while being immune to snares and roots by Shuffle... So, I just must stand there and watch how they easily run away from absolutely anyone with zero problems while being immune to any counter? No, thx.
Cinbri is a rank50 smallgrp/solo/duo player ._.<Noricum>
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NightbladeMechanics✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭KramUzibra wrote: »Also there is no root immunity.
Shuffle and Forward Momentum (other morph of Rally) both grant immunity to roots in addition to snares.
Stamina has generous sources of snare and root immunity. Magicka has none.Kena
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KramUzibra✭✭✭✭Wait a second. Stamina builds with potions/bows and right CP can sprint from Arrius till BRK with speed of fully upgraded mount while being immune to snares and roots by Shuffle... So, I just must stand there and watch how they easily run away from absolutely anyone with zero problems while being immune to any counter? No, thx.
I guess you don't have to just slot a gap closer and spam it.0 -
KramUzibra✭✭✭✭sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »Increasing cost is stupid on everything, there shouldnt be any punish for gapslocing from target to target. What the game is need some form of breathing room once you get gap closed. You could stack all speed/dodge roll boosts in the game and still any gapcloser could break free of cc and gapclose you again before you leave their range.
Once someone starts gap closing you you either have to fight em in the range they prefer or run away, you cant never create distance AND fight em (if youre ranged). You can dodge roll/streak, attack, dodge roll/streak, attack but ultimately every time you do you spend more and more resources, while gapcloser regens that cost during jump lol (thanks CPs)
Isn't that the premise of gap closers though, Bridge the gab so that melee player can apply damage.1 -
KramUzibra✭✭✭✭willlienellson wrote: »
He does not want to autowin.
He´s just arguing that being in gapcloser range for 6 people should not equal an automatic win for them.
If you get into a fight against 6 people running away is probably your best option. I think that should be an option in eso aswell. Currently because of gapcloser mechanics it´s not. Not at all.
If your close enough for six people to gap close you the snare is irrelevant at that point. You most likely will loose.0
