PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Balance Improvements

MalakithAlamahdi · January 2017

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using an ultimate that doesn't scale of your cp. Don't believe me? Ask every stam class but stam dk pre dark brotherhood. Stamina deserves ults just as much as magicka does. Just because you have the argument "they won't use it anyway" doesn't give you reason to take it away. In that case, I want the other morph of overload, nova, healing ult, storm atronach, soul tether etc because "you won't use it anyaays". People need to quit the "magicka only" bs and realize they aren't the only ones in the game.

You're right. Let's give stam everything magicka gets, with extra damage, an added effect, and 20% less cost. Sounds balanced. Apart from group support/heals, the only magicka class holding its own right now is sorc. Stam builds are so vastly superior to magicka right now, and that's not even considering the proc set madness.

You obviously haven't been in cyrodiil lately...80% destro ult magplars and mag dks with grothdarr. And your comprehension levels must not be very high as it was obvious use of sarcasm to outline the flaw in his ideology that just because the other side doesn't use it doesn't also mean they shouldn't have it.

So one ulti is OP in Cyrodiil, that doesn't mean Magicka has good alternatives to use. Stamina always had the superior single target ulti's after they got dawnbreaker, they don't need sweep, while Magicka could very much use one.

The irony is that a lot of people will probably slot soul assault after this as it's the only magicka Ulti left for Templars that does decent damage and has low cost, yet it's an ulti lots of stamina builds rage on.

Crescent was a great ulti for magicka Templars to have some burst, especially now the stun is removed from spears as meteor will simply get blocked by every competent player.

You really must not play stamplar. DB simply does not hit hard like leap or incap and the dot is easily purified or healed through. The addition of crescent sweep will add high burst damage to the class without need of proc sets(I never use them) and because of our lack of sustain as mentioned in my detailed post before we are forced to suffer damage loss to compensate for it. I'm all for giving crescent back, as long as they buff our sustain so we won't need it for burst.

You already got your substain fixed a bit now with the reduced cost of your spammable attack. We don't even have a decent stun anymore, and now our only decent ulti besides soulstrike is getting stolen for no reason. DB hits like a truck, even on my magicka characters the tooltip for it is higher than the other morph of sweep, and people already have less physical resistance than spell resistance to begin with. The 2H ulti can also hit like a truck and is rather cheap.

People complain about magplars being tanky healbots yet every tool we still have to do some kind of offensive is just getting stripped away.

How much regen do you have on your stamplar?

I have 1800 on a redguard in 7 medium and sustain is still difficult. I have to run less damage because of it. The ability cost isn't the problem our problem is we have 0 means of Stam back except for lack luster repentance which also got nerfed. Crescent sweep on pts for me tooltips higher then DB and allows me to burst people without broken PoTL. Every stamplar anywhere will tell you dawnbreaker only seriously does damage to people with little resistance and or no impen/shields. That in combination with its cost and our lack of sustain forcing us to sacrifice damage equates to a situation where we have an ultimate that does little initial damage to anyone decently good at the game effectively eliminating possibility of 1vx due to lack of burst. Db is great on any class(stam sorcs) where you can run around with 500 recovery and sustain. As previously stated I'm all for giving back crescent sweep but our sustain ABSOLUTELY needs to be buffed. If you had read my detailed stamplar post a page ago you would have seen all this already.

I have read it, but a while ago. You do know that magplars run at around 2.5k regen to even keep up with it right? If you wear heavy you'll still need to heavy attack with resto staffs to keep up, so it's both of us that have that issue. That comes with having expensive skill, mag DK's have the same problem.

Taking away the only decent Ulti magplars have because stam doesnt have one either (in your opinion, I disagree with that) isn't a fix, it's shifting the problem. If you want to have decent substain you're going to have to run at high regen, im close to 3k regen on light to be able to keep it up, I also sacrifice a lot of potential damage for that. As I said, stamina Templar isn't the exception here. Magicka Templars have a lot worse choice without crescent than stamina has now with dawnbreaker.

Sound a bit odd to call dawnbreaker bad on a stamina char to have stamina Templars tell us Magicka to use it because it's better than crescent don't you think?

My magplar is a prefect and I don't zerg(or zerg surf or hold radiant in the back) at all, I've played magplar/stamplar since ps4 launch. I run 1800 recovery on my magplar DW/destro 5 kags 5 seducer and sustain fine because of channeled focus, no heavy attacks needed. I would imagine in light it'd be even easier. I have tried crescent sweep and find it underwhelming against people in heavy armor so I stick with meteor/bats or meteor/destro ult in sewers. The difference between stamina and magicka is magicka has vamp bane, blazing spear, radiant etc for added burst potential. Stamplars have none of that. And it was sarcasm when I said to use DB on magicka character because stamina characters had to use magicka ultimates for years. Maybe I should put #sarcasm or sonething.

Yea, with seducer. You got a set that pretty much does the same for stamina, I suggest you wear that one then. You lack a lot of damage with that setup, any of my stam chars wouldn't even feel it. Besides, meteor is useless without a decent stun, which they remove next patch. Bats doesn't really hit hard either.

With crescent I can burst someone down in one stun if they don't pay attention, it's a very good ulti if you use it well. I've Mained a templar since PC beta btw, it's not really a new class for me either.

You lack damage(2400 spell damage unbuffed 41k max magicka) yet you have supporting abilities to aid your damage, the ones I mentioned. Unless you run 2h and bow all you have on a stamplar is rending slashes and biting jabs. No execute unless you back bar it, no other dots, nothing. We are pidgeonholed into the same setup all the other stam classes run. If I had a nickel for everytime it was 1v3 in sewers and I dropped reflective light elemental blockade and meteor and demolished people I'd be as rich as bill gates. But we aren't talking magicka vs stam here, this is about crescent sweep. We need it for any kind of burst potential unless they buff our sustain.

Stamina has plenty of supporting abilities and can stack damage a lot higher. Also their set choices are genrally a lot stronger. They also face less resistance and can stack penetration higher by just slotting maces. I have every class in stamina and magicka en stamina is superior in pvp on pretty much every class. The only downside of most stamina classes is the lack of AoE and cleanse, which the templar actually has the latter of. Magicka is nice in groups as they can support, all you need to do against most magicka builds is just stun them every 6 seconds or root them in traps.

templesus wrote: »

Assuming no proc sets.
Stamblades have burst because they can run little recovery and sustain and have insane damage ouput because of incap. Stam sorcs have burst because they can run no recovery and sustain paired with their passives for extra damage and implosion. Stam dks have burst because they can run little recovery and sustain and leap can 1 shot half cyrodiils population on the right build. Stamplars have burst because they have to run high recovery to sustain.<
see how it makes little to no sense?

And yet every magicka class needs to do that and still does less damage overal. The other 3 classes are unbalanced as they can stack anything they want without it having downsides, that should be fixed, and not make another class unbeatable. ESO was never designed to have stam only builds, stamina used to be utility. They moment they tried to make stamina equal to magicka and added cp they ruined the balance like never before. You just need to stack more regen, it's really that easy. Stamplar got some nice buffs this update, the ulti is completely unneeded.

Stamplar has plenty of supporting abilities? Name them. The other stam classes have said abilities(hurricane, stam dk dots, assassins scourge). Stamplar does not. We got buffs but AS STATED SEVERAL TIMES unless our sustain is buff nothing changes. "Superior in PvP" is subjective. At 1vx sure, dueling magicka is better(mag dk, mag sorc, magplar have edge), group play magicka dominates. As someone who also has all classes, that statement is subjectively false.

Rending Slashes- Is a really good DoT. It's easily spammable and has a passive execute.
Blood Craze - still a good DoT, the heal can't be cleansed as it's counted as a buff on you. That in combo with major mending and rally is very strong.
Deadly Cloak - Great when you fight a class like a templar, his main spammable and stun are AoE, it reduced your damage by 20% and does damage in the meantime.
Shuffle - Negates more damage than any armor skill, breaks roots, and even dodges DoT's aleady applied to you.
Stampede - This actually works compared to toppling charge and gives a 60% snare.
Dizzying Swing - High damage and a stun, great against magicka classes as it drains them fast.
Reverse Slice - Hard hitting execute that can be animation cancled completely and damages every around for 59% of the damage done.

Biting Jabs - spammable that hits hard, and gives free crit. After the update it's also very cheap and undodgable.

For stamplar support skills:
Blinding Javelin - decent stun, also gets buffed next update.
Power of the Light - Debuff and can actually hit good since stamplars damage is pretty high. Also buffed next patch.
Rune focus - free to cast magicka skill, gives regen, gives armor, and gives major mending which is really strong in combination with vigor and rally.
Radiant Aura - 30% more regen, that's a lot. It also doesnt cost you your main pool to use.
Repentace - Still 10%, and great in cyrodiil and IC as there are usually corpses around.
You could even use honor the dead as a panic heal as it gives you 60% of it's cost back.

Rearming Trap - Very good rout, the extra 12% crit damage is great in combo with jabs.

If bow:
Poison Injection - great DoT & execute.

If S&B:
Heroic Slash - Snare, does good damage, gives uli, and 15% debuff.
Reverberating Bash - best stun ingame imo and gives major defile
Invasion - still better than toppling charge.

Magicka templar can't use any of these weapon skills so we lack a reliable stun (after the update). Got worse ulti's (except for EotS) but you need a staff full of useless skills to use that. Resto staff isn't that usuable either except for the magicka return, this still isn't a good way to gain magicka if you're in light armor.

Repentance is actually great in IC also since there are plenty of mobs that die in 1-2 jabs.

Stamina always had superior weapon choices, i suggest you make use of that in combination with the benefits templar gives you.

And no, stamina is a lot better for duels than magicka, magicka is nice in groups.

technohic · January 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Glad you found the comments useful!

We're still evaluating the overall balance, and will continue to do so after PTS is back online and we collect more feedback when you have a chance to test the changes. There likely won't be any large, sweeping changes at this point, though.

That said, we know everyone is very passionate about their classes, but please keep your comments constructive. If you'd like to see something changed, let us know and explain why. Hop onto the PTS and try out the changes we've made so far, and explain why you do or don't like some of the things you see. Also, keep in mind if we don't implement some of your feedback, it could be due to a number of reasons. Balance is one of those things that affect the entire game, and when we're working with four different classes, there's a lot to consider. We are reading, though, and appreciate the time you take writing out your thoughts.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

I did this. I did a whole Templar run in Maelstrom arena (on a template). I also participated in some duels for PvP insight. This isn't theoretical complaining. This is hours of PTS experience.

See here:

Cute reward for the house by the way:

Weapon was a charged bow. Not so cute. Please do something with weapon and armor traits.

It's been months since I have run Maelstrom, so I was a little rusty. The most apparent thing I noticed on the PTS is that the Power Creep is real and Out of Control. Enemies, including bosses, died so fast it was difficult for me to assess just how effective the abilities are because vMA is no longer competitive content: I can ignore most of the mechanics even on a template with crappy gear and me being totally out of practice. I'm not sure why the developers feel the same basic combat mechanics that were introduced when we had 18,000 health and did 14K DPS works fine when we have 18,000 health and do 55K DPS, but I think that is the underlying cause for much of the complaints in PvP. Since there won't be any "large sweeping changes," I'll leave it at that and suggest ZoS look into that for the future.

*******As far as the changes to Templar:******

Stamina stuff I never ran a stamplar so I'm not the right person to ask. I'm pretty sure I would still use Dawnbreaker over Crescent Sweep though. I dislike Crescent because the range is too short and ultimates that just do damage have to do a lot of damage IMHO and this one doesn't.

Radiant aura. I tried this but stuff died so fast using the skill was actually a net loss. I am familiar enough with the magickasteal mechanic, however, to recognize that in competitive environments Vs. numerous enemies this would be an excellent resource management skill. I would want a templar in my raid using this so, This change has Joy's stamp of approval

Backlash Because I think this is ignoring Battle Spirit, I did not use in while dueling. Even with Battle Spirit, if this works out to be 10K, which is half my tooltip, then that is too strong. A sorcerer has to devote a lot toward damage to even get a 8K crit curse and that class is designed for burst unlike a templar. My gut tells me the "PvE Raid" mechanics this spell uses makes it trouble for PvP. This must be closely monitored when it gets bug-fixed and ZoS needs to implement a rapid balance should this turn out to be too strong.

Piercing Javelin To be honest, I never though the projectile speed was too slow or that it was difficult to hit targets with this spell. It's a buff, so I suppose as a templar I'll take it. I still think this ability is too expensive for what it does.

Radial Sweep I think the miss issues the spell has goes beyond it getting dodged as NPCs do not have Major Evasion. As far as the mgaicka version Empowering goes, I view this ultimate as strictly niche; a DPS will never use it, it won't improve Maelstrom Arena times, a tank will want Warhorn or something to buff the group, etc. I like the versatile mechanics, but the short range of this skill undermines it; it is just easier to use the destro ultimate.

Radiant Destruction : I felt the 21% damage decrease; it is significant and too much. The best reform proposal I have seen is to make the damage also scale with range. If you are right in the grill of the target, have it do that damage currently on Live. The further away you are, the less damage this does.

Healing Ritual: I ran solo so I was unable to test thus. When I see and end game competitive Trial Guilds have their templars use this spell to heal the tank in Hel-Ra hardmode or in Maw, then I will believe the concept of a delayed heal is worth it in this meta of one-shots and high burst damage. Until then, I will continue to use Healing Springs.

Eclipse Every time the PTS comes up, I make it very clear why people will not use this spell and with every patch it doesn’t get used. I don’t mean to toot my own horn, however nobody on the PC NA server has used this ability more than I have. Easily over 10,000 casts. It is too expensive. Its defensive effects only work against weak NPCs and inexperienced players. Its damage is too underwhelming. This patch has done nothing with respect to these issues.

I tried it again in vMA:
Magicka ran dry. It's easier to take the 3 seconds to kill the ranged mages

Useless against the Firespinners. That's what I need to reflect.

Used this against players:
Magicka ran dry.

Max spell cost for 2K damage. Way too inefficient

Reflected nothing one opponent used. Other opponent simply broke and took the small damage and enjoyed CC immunity

Stopped using it. Immediately did better

The offensive morph is the most inefficient skill in the game. These characters have the exact same gear.

A sorcerer will spend 2000 magicka to do 23,400 unblockable damage in 8.5 seconds.
A Templar will spend 6000 magicka to do 18,500 blockable damage in 14+ seconds.

I already wrote how and and why some minor changes to the skill would make it potentially more useful here. In short:
It. Is.Too. Inefficient. Adjust cost of spell or damage or augment its effects.

Make both morphs reflect. Damage morph is pointless because it's so inefficient. Dark morph heals. Unstable doesn't and instead does more damage. Just like old spell.

It reflects spells, not projectiles. Just like it used to.

Drak morph gives templar so minor buff. Unstable morph debuffs enemy. That way when CC broken, the templar still gets some benefit.

Blazing Spear - I didn't like the patch notes when I saw them. After playing with this on the PTS, I can 100% say in confidence that the changes contradict the reasoning given by @ZOS_RichLambert " [Blazing Spear] falls into the “simplify” category ... Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels."

Veteran Maelstrom Arena is going to be harder for all players of all skill levels with this change. Yes, a pure DPS rotation against a target dummy will be a little easier and more efficient with the extra 2 seconds of damage. But the game isn't played against target dummies. The most efficient and versatile use of this skill was to stun dangerous adds while putting decent damage on them. In particular rounds 5 (Ice flows), 8 (fire spinners) and 9 (Final) is where this skill really shines because the sheer number of high damaging (and ranged) adds. Lacking the stun, I was overwhelmed and died at some points where I know I would not have been with the old spell.

Could I adjust my build? Yes, but it would be less efficient, less effective, and make my rotations and general survival more difficult. I tried Eclipse. Terrible. If I want the CC, then it's Javelin or Destructive reach, which are single target as opposed to AoE and lose the valuable Burning Light procs. The best solution is what it always is in ESO moar damage. So just live without the stuns, and throw up an extra shield or breath of life. With 600 CPs and the current power creep, this isn't much of an issue, but had this change been done when Orsinium was released, vMA would have been noticeably more difficult on a Templar.

Against players, Blazing Spear is hard to justify using. It's not easy to hit them in the first place and they just move out of the DoT. Templars who relied on the stun will once again have to put in multiple skills to make up for the loss of stun and AOE that this spell provided which, again, makes for more intense rotations and increases the difficulty a PvP templar will face.

Can't I just use Luminous? No. Because I PvE DPS. The thing ZoS does not seem to appreciate with morphs is sometimes one morph just has something that cannot be discarded. Blazing Spear is very good DPS skill; if I run end-game content or want to get a decent score in vMA, I have to take this morph. I am not going to respec my character whenever I do PVP. Asking me to do so is in no way "simplifying" the game.. Besides, Luminous is not a true CC. Disorient breaks on damage.

The whole routine of "Dont use of DoT and an enemy and yell in zone for your allies to not to put a DoT on the target" is not making the game easier.

ZoS, if your goal is too truly "simplify" things for a templar, revert the stun back to Blazing Spear. Here are other suggestions for a future patch that would make the Templar’s life simpler:
Puncturing Strikes: I hate that this locks the Templar into the direction they are facing. Getting it to actually hit a target four times requires a CC beforehand and this class has terrible CCs

Focused Charge: It’s so slow now. And I still get stuck in the animation. This ability was perfectly fine at Launch. Please just revert it back to what it once was.

Solar Barrage It self-snares and pales in comparison to other PBAoEs in the game.

Rune Focus I *have* to move in PvP ZoS! Do you not watch videos of Eye of the Storm or read what Negate does?

Light Weaver I do not even unlock this passive even though I have 40 skill points. That is how pointless it is.

We have 25K health and players do 55K DPS. The days of "stand your ground" in PvP are as dead as the 1.5 patch. All magicka human players need to move. Please make a new Alliance War skill that makes it possible for them to move away from ball-groups and their Encases, Negates, and Eyes of the Storm spam. I am tired of being an undead abomination just so I can move in PvP.

*******In short:******

I did what ZoS asked me to do. All of this feedback based on PTS playing against PvE and players. To sum up and prioritize what I think is most different from Live:

Radiant Aura - I think this is a compelling change. I'll give credit. Probably the most important templar change.
Blazing Spear - No stun makes Templar play unnecessarily more complicated.
Backlash - Will probably be too good after the bugfix.
Radiant Destruction - Was too good. Flat damage nerf is too high and does not address issues most players had with it.
Eclipse - I didn't use this before and won't use it again because it is the most inefficient skill in the game.
Radial Sweep - I didn't use this before because the range is too short.
Javelin - I don't think it had an issue hitting targets so not much to say here.

Other non-templar feedback
The minor Lifesteal is too low. I tried using Force Siphon against Stamina opponents. The difference between their HoTs and mine ... as a Templar was night and day.

A "normal" build of 27K health with Light Armor or Medium Armor stands zero chance of surviving a gank from a NB that knows what they are doing. It was not proc crits that they were abusing. This change is not going to help and only serve to make marginal sets useless, take strategy out of PvE, and unnecessarily complicating game mechanics. Revert and adds cooldown to proc damage. Occam's razor please.

Eye of the Storm is still too strong. Spamming Harness magicka or running away hoping the caster doesn't have a gap closer is the only counterplay. I fought a Nightblade using a Fire staff and even spamming honor of the dead was not good enough. Just use your original formula for this morph please.

The One-hand and Shield Skill Defensive Stance is bugged. It is supposed to reflect projectiles but does not reflect the Inferno version of Destruction Staff skill, Flame Touch.

Negate is OP An enemy DK uses a 250 ultimate that inconveniences my character with a heal debuff and puts a DoT on me. A sorcerer uses a 200 ultimate that completely shuts down my character, puts a DoT on me, and removes an enemy DK. And you nerfed Standard?

Light Armor in PvP works OK in duels. In the open world without a zerg for protection is a whole 'nother story.

That's it for now

Wait. Unstable core is blockable? Is that kind of dumb considering that when you break it, you set it off but to break it, you are holding block then clicking the left mouse button assuming standard keybindings? Is it possibly automatically then blocking it or is it impossible to block it depending on when the damage hits?

Ron_Burgundy_79 · January 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Glad you found the comments useful!

We're still evaluating the overall balance, and will continue to do so after PTS is back online and we collect more feedback when you have a chance to test the changes. There likely won't be any large, sweeping changes at this point, though.

That said, we know everyone is very passionate about their classes, but please keep your comments constructive. If you'd like to see something changed, let us know and explain why. Hop onto the PTS and try out the changes we've made so far, and explain why you do or don't like some of the things you see. Also, keep in mind if we don't implement some of your feedback, it could be due to a number of reasons. Balance is one of those things that affect the entire game, and when we're working with four different classes, there's a lot to consider. We are reading, though, and appreciate the time you take writing out your thoughts.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

I did this. I did a whole Templar run in Maelstrom arena (on a template). I also participated in some duels for PvP insight. This isn't theoretical complaining. This is hours of PTS experience.

See here:

Cute reward for the house by the way:

Weapon was a charged bow. Not so cute. Please do something with weapon and armor traits.

It's been months since I have run Maelstrom, so I was a little rusty. The most apparent thing I noticed on the PTS is that the Power Creep is real and Out of Control. Enemies, including bosses, died so fast it was difficult for me to assess just how effective the abilities are because vMA is no longer competitive content: I can ignore most of the mechanics even on a template with crappy gear and me being totally out of practice. I'm not sure why the developers feel the same basic combat mechanics that were introduced when we had 18,000 health and did 14K DPS works fine when we have 18,000 health and do 55K DPS, but I think that is the underlying cause for much of the complaints in PvP. Since there won't be any "large sweeping changes," I'll leave it at that and suggest ZoS look into that for the future.

*******As far as the changes to Templar:******

Stamina stuff I never ran a stamplar so I'm not the right person to ask. I'm pretty sure I would still use Dawnbreaker over Crescent Sweep though. I dislike Crescent because the range is too short and ultimates that just do damage have to do a lot of damage IMHO and this one doesn't.

Radiant aura. I tried this but stuff died so fast using the skill was actually a net loss. I am familiar enough with the magickasteal mechanic, however, to recognize that in competitive environments Vs. numerous enemies this would be an excellent resource management skill. I would want a templar in my raid using this so, This change has Joy's stamp of approval

Backlash Because I think this is ignoring Battle Spirit, I did not use in while dueling. Even with Battle Spirit, if this works out to be 10K, which is half my tooltip, then that is too strong. A sorcerer has to devote a lot toward damage to even get a 8K crit curse and that class is designed for burst unlike a templar. My gut tells me the "PvE Raid" mechanics this spell uses makes it trouble for PvP. This must be closely monitored when it gets bug-fixed and ZoS needs to implement a rapid balance should this turn out to be too strong.

Piercing Javelin To be honest, I never though the projectile speed was too slow or that it was difficult to hit targets with this spell. It's a buff, so I suppose as a templar I'll take it. I still think this ability is too expensive for what it does.

Radial Sweep I think the miss issues the spell has goes beyond it getting dodged as NPCs do not have Major Evasion. As far as the mgaicka version Empowering goes, I view this ultimate as strictly niche; a DPS will never use it, it won't improve Maelstrom Arena times, a tank will want Warhorn or something to buff the group, etc. I like the versatile mechanics, but the short range of this skill undermines it; it is just easier to use the destro ultimate.

Radiant Destruction : I felt the 21% damage decrease; it is significant and too much. The best reform proposal I have seen is to make the damage also scale with range. If you are right in the grill of the target, have it do that damage currently on Live. The further away you are, the less damage this does.

Healing Ritual: I ran solo so I was unable to test thus. When I see and end game competitive Trial Guilds have their templars use this spell to heal the tank in Hel-Ra hardmode or in Maw, then I will believe the concept of a delayed heal is worth it in this meta of one-shots and high burst damage. Until then, I will continue to use Healing Springs.

Eclipse Every time the PTS comes up, I make it very clear why people will not use this spell and with every patch it doesn’t get used. I don’t mean to toot my own horn, however nobody on the PC NA server has used this ability more than I have. Easily over 10,000 casts. It is too expensive. Its defensive effects only work against weak NPCs and inexperienced players. Its damage is too underwhelming. This patch has done nothing with respect to these issues.

I tried it again in vMA:
Magicka ran dry. It's easier to take the 3 seconds to kill the ranged mages

Useless against the Firespinners. That's what I need to reflect.

Used this against players:
Magicka ran dry.

Max spell cost for 2K damage. Way too inefficient

Reflected nothing one opponent used. Other opponent simply broke and took the small damage and enjoyed CC immunity

Stopped using it. Immediately did better

The offensive morph is the most inefficient skill in the game. These characters have the exact same gear.

A sorcerer will spend 2000 magicka to do 23,400 unblockable damage in 8.5 seconds.
A Templar will spend 6000 magicka to do 18,500 blockable damage in 14+ seconds.

I already wrote how and and why some minor changes to the skill would make it potentially more useful here. In short:
It. Is.Too. Inefficient. Adjust cost of spell or damage or augment its effects.

Make both morphs reflect. Damage morph is pointless because it's so inefficient. Dark morph heals. Unstable doesn't and instead does more damage. Just like old spell.

It reflects spells, not projectiles. Just like it used to.

Drak morph gives templar so minor buff. Unstable morph debuffs enemy. That way when CC broken, the templar still gets some benefit.

Blazing Spear - I didn't like the patch notes when I saw them. After playing with this on the PTS, I can 100% say in confidence that the changes contradict the reasoning given by @ZOS_RichLambert " [Blazing Spear] falls into the “simplify” category ... Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels."

Veteran Maelstrom Arena is going to be harder for all players of all skill levels with this change. Yes, a pure DPS rotation against a target dummy will be a little easier and more efficient with the extra 2 seconds of damage. But the game isn't played against target dummies. The most efficient and versatile use of this skill was to stun dangerous adds while putting decent damage on them. In particular rounds 5 (Ice flows), 8 (fire spinners) and 9 (Final) is where this skill really shines because the sheer number of high damaging (and ranged) adds. Lacking the stun, I was overwhelmed and died at some points where I know I would not have been with the old spell.

Could I adjust my build? Yes, but it would be less efficient, less effective, and make my rotations and general survival more difficult. I tried Eclipse. Terrible. If I want the CC, then it's Javelin or Destructive reach, which are single target as opposed to AoE and lose the valuable Burning Light procs. The best solution is what it always is in ESO moar damage. So just live without the stuns, and throw up an extra shield or breath of life. With 600 CPs and the current power creep, this isn't much of an issue, but had this change been done when Orsinium was released, vMA would have been noticeably more difficult on a Templar.

Against players, Blazing Spear is hard to justify using. It's not easy to hit them in the first place and they just move out of the DoT. Templars who relied on the stun will once again have to put in multiple skills to make up for the loss of stun and AOE that this spell provided which, again, makes for more intense rotations and increases the difficulty a PvP templar will face.

Can't I just use Luminous? No. Because I PvE DPS. The thing ZoS does not seem to appreciate with morphs is sometimes one morph just has something that cannot be discarded. Blazing Spear is very good DPS skill; if I run end-game content or want to get a decent score in vMA, I have to take this morph. I am not going to respec my character whenever I do PVP. Asking me to do so is in no way "simplifying" the game.. Besides, Luminous is not a true CC. Disorient breaks on damage.

The whole routine of "Dont use of DoT and an enemy and yell in zone for your allies to not to put a DoT on the target" is not making the game easier.

ZoS, if your goal is too truly "simplify" things for a templar, revert the stun back to Blazing Spear. Here are other suggestions for a future patch that would make the Templar’s life simpler:
Puncturing Strikes: I hate that this locks the Templar into the direction they are facing. Getting it to actually hit a target four times requires a CC beforehand and this class has terrible CCs

Focused Charge: It’s so slow now. And I still get stuck in the animation. This ability was perfectly fine at Launch. Please just revert it back to what it once was.

Solar Barrage It self-snares and pales in comparison to other PBAoEs in the game.

Rune Focus I *have* to move in PvP ZoS! Do you not watch videos of Eye of the Storm or read what Negate does?

Light Weaver I do not even unlock this passive even though I have 40 skill points. That is how pointless it is.

We have 25K health and players do 55K DPS. The days of "stand your ground" in PvP are as dead as the 1.5 patch. All magicka human players need to move. Please make a new Alliance War skill that makes it possible for them to move away from ball-groups and their Encases, Negates, and Eyes of the Storm spam. I am tired of being an undead abomination just so I can move in PvP.

*******In short:******

I did what ZoS asked me to do. All of this feedback based on PTS playing against PvE and players. To sum up and prioritize what I think is most different from Live:

Radiant Aura - I think this is a compelling change. I'll give credit. Probably the most important templar change.
Blazing Spear - No stun makes Templar play unnecessarily more complicated.
Backlash - Will probably be too good after the bugfix.
Radiant Destruction - Was too good. Flat damage nerf is too high and does not address issues most players had with it.
Eclipse - I didn't use this before and won't use it again because it is the most inefficient skill in the game.
Radial Sweep - I didn't use this before because the range is too short.
Javelin - I don't think it had an issue hitting targets so not much to say here.

Other non-templar feedback
The minor Lifesteal is too low. I tried using Force Siphon against Stamina opponents. The difference between their HoTs and mine ... as a Templar was night and day.

A "normal" build of 27K health with Light Armor or Medium Armor stands zero chance of surviving a gank from a NB that knows what they are doing. It was not proc crits that they were abusing. This change is not going to help and only serve to make marginal sets useless, take strategy out of PvE, and unnecessarily complicating game mechanics. Revert and adds cooldown to proc damage. Occam's razor please.

Eye of the Storm is still too strong. Spamming Harness magicka or running away hoping the caster doesn't have a gap closer is the only counterplay. I fought a Nightblade using a Fire staff and even spamming honor of the dead was not good enough. Just use your original formula for this morph please.

The One-hand and Shield Skill Defensive Stance is bugged. It is supposed to reflect projectiles but does not reflect the Inferno version of Destruction Staff skill, Flame Touch.

Negate is OP An enemy DK uses a 250 ultimate that inconveniences my character with a heal debuff and puts a DoT on me. A sorcerer uses a 200 ultimate that completely shuts down my character, puts a DoT on me, and removes an enemy DK. And you nerfed Standard?

Light Armor in PvP works OK in duels. In the open world without a zerg for protection is a whole 'nother story.

That's it for now

I would like to say thank you for compiling this review. While we don't always see eye to eye on everything, I do agree with every single one of these points and Joy's fixes. Please take @Joy_Division 's post into consideration.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert

templesus · January 2017

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using an ultimate that doesn't scale of your cp. Don't believe me? Ask every stam class but stam dk pre dark brotherhood. Stamina deserves ults just as much as magicka does. Just because you have the argument "they won't use it anyway" doesn't give you reason to take it away. In that case, I want the other morph of overload, nova, healing ult, storm atronach, soul tether etc because "you won't use it anyaays". People need to quit the "magicka only" bs and realize they aren't the only ones in the game.

You're right. Let's give stam everything magicka gets, with extra damage, an added effect, and 20% less cost. Sounds balanced. Apart from group support/heals, the only magicka class holding its own right now is sorc. Stam builds are so vastly superior to magicka right now, and that's not even considering the proc set madness.

You obviously haven't been in cyrodiil lately...80% destro ult magplars and mag dks with grothdarr. And your comprehension levels must not be very high as it was obvious use of sarcasm to outline the flaw in his ideology that just because the other side doesn't use it doesn't also mean they shouldn't have it.

So one ulti is OP in Cyrodiil, that doesn't mean Magicka has good alternatives to use. Stamina always had the superior single target ulti's after they got dawnbreaker, they don't need sweep, while Magicka could very much use one.

The irony is that a lot of people will probably slot soul assault after this as it's the only magicka Ulti left for Templars that does decent damage and has low cost, yet it's an ulti lots of stamina builds rage on.

Crescent was a great ulti for magicka Templars to have some burst, especially now the stun is removed from spears as meteor will simply get blocked by every competent player.

You really must not play stamplar. DB simply does not hit hard like leap or incap and the dot is easily purified or healed through. The addition of crescent sweep will add high burst damage to the class without need of proc sets(I never use them) and because of our lack of sustain as mentioned in my detailed post before we are forced to suffer damage loss to compensate for it. I'm all for giving crescent back, as long as they buff our sustain so we won't need it for burst.

You already got your substain fixed a bit now with the reduced cost of your spammable attack. We don't even have a decent stun anymore, and now our only decent ulti besides soulstrike is getting stolen for no reason. DB hits like a truck, even on my magicka characters the tooltip for it is higher than the other morph of sweep, and people already have less physical resistance than spell resistance to begin with. The 2H ulti can also hit like a truck and is rather cheap.

People complain about magplars being tanky healbots yet every tool we still have to do some kind of offensive is just getting stripped away.

How much regen do you have on your stamplar?

I have 1800 on a redguard in 7 medium and sustain is still difficult. I have to run less damage because of it. The ability cost isn't the problem our problem is we have 0 means of Stam back except for lack luster repentance which also got nerfed. Crescent sweep on pts for me tooltips higher then DB and allows me to burst people without broken PoTL. Every stamplar anywhere will tell you dawnbreaker only seriously does damage to people with little resistance and or no impen/shields. That in combination with its cost and our lack of sustain forcing us to sacrifice damage equates to a situation where we have an ultimate that does little initial damage to anyone decently good at the game effectively eliminating possibility of 1vx due to lack of burst. Db is great on any class(stam sorcs) where you can run around with 500 recovery and sustain. As previously stated I'm all for giving back crescent sweep but our sustain ABSOLUTELY needs to be buffed. If you had read my detailed stamplar post a page ago you would have seen all this already.

I have read it, but a while ago. You do know that magplars run at around 2.5k regen to even keep up with it right? If you wear heavy you'll still need to heavy attack with resto staffs to keep up, so it's both of us that have that issue. That comes with having expensive skill, mag DK's have the same problem.

Taking away the only decent Ulti magplars have because stam doesnt have one either (in your opinion, I disagree with that) isn't a fix, it's shifting the problem. If you want to have decent substain you're going to have to run at high regen, im close to 3k regen on light to be able to keep it up, I also sacrifice a lot of potential damage for that. As I said, stamina Templar isn't the exception here. Magicka Templars have a lot worse choice without crescent than stamina has now with dawnbreaker.

Sound a bit odd to call dawnbreaker bad on a stamina char to have stamina Templars tell us Magicka to use it because it's better than crescent don't you think?

My magplar is a prefect and I don't zerg(or zerg surf or hold radiant in the back) at all, I've played magplar/stamplar since ps4 launch. I run 1800 recovery on my magplar DW/destro 5 kags 5 seducer and sustain fine because of channeled focus, no heavy attacks needed. I would imagine in light it'd be even easier. I have tried crescent sweep and find it underwhelming against people in heavy armor so I stick with meteor/bats or meteor/destro ult in sewers. The difference between stamina and magicka is magicka has vamp bane, blazing spear, radiant etc for added burst potential. Stamplars have none of that. And it was sarcasm when I said to use DB on magicka character because stamina characters had to use magicka ultimates for years. Maybe I should put #sarcasm or sonething.

Yea, with seducer. You got a set that pretty much does the same for stamina, I suggest you wear that one then. You lack a lot of damage with that setup, any of my stam chars wouldn't even feel it. Besides, meteor is useless without a decent stun, which they remove next patch. Bats doesn't really hit hard either.

With crescent I can burst someone down in one stun if they don't pay attention, it's a very good ulti if you use it well. I've Mained a templar since PC beta btw, it's not really a new class for me either.

You lack damage(2400 spell damage unbuffed 41k max magicka) yet you have supporting abilities to aid your damage, the ones I mentioned. Unless you run 2h and bow all you have on a stamplar is rending slashes and biting jabs. No execute unless you back bar it, no other dots, nothing. We are pidgeonholed into the same setup all the other stam classes run. If I had a nickel for everytime it was 1v3 in sewers and I dropped reflective light elemental blockade and meteor and demolished people I'd be as rich as bill gates. But we aren't talking magicka vs stam here, this is about crescent sweep. We need it for any kind of burst potential unless they buff our sustain.

Stamina has plenty of supporting abilities and can stack damage a lot higher. Also their set choices are genrally a lot stronger. They also face less resistance and can stack penetration higher by just slotting maces. I have every class in stamina and magicka en stamina is superior in pvp on pretty much every class. The only downside of most stamina classes is the lack of AoE and cleanse, which the templar actually has the latter of. Magicka is nice in groups as they can support, all you need to do against most magicka builds is just stun them every 6 seconds or root them in traps.

templesus wrote: »

Assuming no proc sets.
Stamblades have burst because they can run little recovery and sustain and have insane damage ouput because of incap. Stam sorcs have burst because they can run no recovery and sustain paired with their passives for extra damage and implosion. Stam dks have burst because they can run little recovery and sustain and leap can 1 shot half cyrodiils population on the right build. Stamplars have burst because they have to run high recovery to sustain.<
see how it makes little to no sense?

And yet every magicka class needs to do that and still does less damage overal. The other 3 classes are unbalanced as they can stack anything they want without it having downsides, that should be fixed, and not make another class unbeatable. ESO was never designed to have stam only builds, stamina used to be utility. They moment they tried to make stamina equal to magicka and added cp they ruined the balance like never before. You just need to stack more regen, it's really that easy. Stamplar got some nice buffs this update, the ulti is completely unneeded.

Stamplar has plenty of supporting abilities? Name them. The other stam classes have said abilities(hurricane, stam dk dots, assassins scourge). Stamplar does not. We got buffs but AS STATED SEVERAL TIMES unless our sustain is buff nothing changes. "Superior in PvP" is subjective. At 1vx sure, dueling magicka is better(mag dk, mag sorc, magplar have edge), group play magicka dominates. As someone who also has all classes, that statement is subjectively false.

Rending Slashes- Is a really good DoT. It's easily spammable and has a passive execute.
Blood Craze - still a good DoT, the heal can't be cleansed as it's counted as a buff on you. That in combo with major mending and rally is very strong.
Deadly Cloak - Great when you fight a class like a templar, his main spammable and stun are AoE, it reduced your damage by 20% and does damage in the meantime.
Shuffle - Negates more damage than any armor skill, breaks roots, and even dodges DoT's aleady applied to you.
Rune focus - free to cast magicka skill, gives regen, gives armor, and gives major mending which is really strong in combination with vigor and rally.
Stampede - This actually works compared to toppling charge and gives a 60% snare.
Dizzying Swing - High damage and a stun, great against magicka classes as it drains them fast.
Reverse Slice - Hard hitting execute that can be animation cancled completely and damages every around for 59% of the damage done.

Biting Jabs - spammable that hits hard, and gives free crit. After the update it's also very cheap and undodgable.
Blinding Javelin - decent stun, also gets buffed next update.
Power of the Light - Debuff and can actually hit good since stamplars damage is pretty high.

Rearming Trap - Very good rout, the extra 12% crit damage is great in combo with jabs.

If bow:
Poison Injection - great DoT & execute.

If S&B:
Heroic Slash - Snare, does good damage, gives uli, and 15% debuff.
Reverberating Bash - best stun ingame imo and gives major defile
Invasion - still better than toppling charge.

Magicka templar can't use any of these weapon skills so we lack a reliable stun (after the update). Got worse ulti's (except for EotS) but you need a staff full of useless skills to use that. Resto staff isn't that usuable either except for the magicka return, this still isn't a good way to gain magicka if you're in light armor.

Repentance is actually great in IC also since there are plenty of mobs that die in 1-2 jabs.

Stamina always had superior weapon choices, i suggest you make use of that in combination with the benefits templar gives you.

And no, stamina is a lot better for duels than magicka, magicka is nice in groups.

You just proved my point. We have 0 class supporting damage abilities. That's why we're horrible in pve, that's why we're horrible in PvP. Everything you just mentioned is outside our skill lines(except POTL which is broken and soon to be fixed on pts, on live its one of the worst abilities in the game). So to sum it up this is what you are saying is stamplars(not any other class they have supporting stam dps abilities) should just ditch being a class completely and just be a 2h and bow or DW or snb warrior correct? And you say stamina is better then duels? I'm starting to think you're either trolling or just not good at PvP at all. Mag sorcs vs stam sorcs, mag sorcs sits in mines and stam sorc never touches him curse+frag+db+endless fury combo and dead wins 8/10. Mag nb vs stam nb stam wins hands down 8/10, magplar vs stamplar they both spam sweeps on each other but magplars heals him so he loses little health, as soon as stamplar is anywhere near 30% radiant comes in while stamplar can't burst magplar down through heals magplar wins 9/10, mag dk vs stam dk needs no explanation meteor petrify combo insta death 9/10.

templesus · January 2017

I can't even argue with you, your literally saying stamplar should just use weapon skill lines without opening up your mind to see how bad we are in PvE and PvP after all the facts I've given you. You win, I'm sure devs will see our little scuffle and revert change and give crescent sweep back to magicka im done arguing.

MalakithAlamahdi · January 2017

templesus wrote: »

I can't even argue with you, your literally saying stamplar should just use weapon skill lines without opening up your mind to see how bad we are in PvE and PvP after all the facts I've given you. You win, I'm sure devs will see our little scuffle and revert change and give crescent sweep back to magicka im done arguing.

You know Stam dk's do excatly that in pvp as well right? You know that stam sorc uses mostly weapon skills as well right? Thats how stamina always worked and that's how it always should. The only exeption is NB here.

"mag dk vs stam dk needs no explanation meteor petrify combo insta death 9/10. "

If this happens to you i'm pretty sure i know who the noob is. Stam DK is one of the best duel classes you can have. Use a decent proc set on a stam templar and you can kill a magicka templar in one hit if he isn't using reactive. Stam sorcs can easily burst down mag sorcs, they are usually pet sorcs for a reason. You can block and heal trough radiant and it's interuptable, the only times i die to it are people spamming it in 1vsX.

If you got such issues with playing stamina in the stamina meta i suggest you go play something else.

EDIT:

Blinding Javelin - decent stun, also gets buffed next update.
Power of the Light - Debuff and can actually hit good since stamplars damage is pretty high. Also buffed next patch.
Rune focus - free to cast magicka skill, gives regen, gives armor, and gives major mending which is really strong in combination with vigor and rally.
Radiant Aura - 30% more regen, that's a lot. It also doesnt cost you your main pool to use.
Repentace - Still 10%, and great in cyrodiil and IC as there are usually corpses around.
You could even use honor the dead as a panic heal as it gives you 60% of it's cost back.

Would hardly call that zero skills. Support skills dont have to be stamina on stamina toons, they don't have to dodge and break free using magicka. As long as you can cast it and it does it's job it's a usuable skill. By your logic surge isn't a support skill for Stam sorcs because it costs magicka to cast.

templesus · January 2017

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I can't even argue with you, your literally saying stamplar should just use weapon skill lines without opening up your mind to see how bad we are in PvE and PvP after all the facts I've given you. You win, I'm sure devs will see our little scuffle and revert change and give crescent sweep back to magicka im done arguing.

You know Stam dk's do excatly that in pvp as well right? You know that stam sorc uses mostly weapon skills as well right? Thats how stamina always worked and that's how it always should. The only exeption is NB here.

"mag dk vs stam dk needs no explanation meteor petrify combo insta death 9/10. "

If this happens to you i'm pretty sure i know who the noob is. Stam DK is one of the best duel classes you can have. Use a decent proc set on a stam templar and you can kill a magicka templar in one hit if he isn't using reactive. Stam sorcs can easily burst down mag sorcs, they are usually pet sorcs for a reason. You can block and heal trough radiant and it's interuptable, the only times i die to it are people spamming it in 1vsX.

If you got such issues with playing stamina in the stamina meta i suggest you go play something else.

EDIT:

Blinding Javelin - decent stun, also gets buffed next update.
Power of the Light - Debuff and can actually hit good since stamplars damage is pretty high. Also buffed next patch.
Rune focus - free to cast magicka skill, gives regen, gives armor, and gives major mending which is really strong in combination with vigor and rally.
Radiant Aura - 30% more regen, that's a lot. It also doesnt cost you your main pool to use.
Repentace - Still 10%, and great in cyrodiil and IC as there are usually corpses around.
You could even use honor the dead as a panic heal as it gives you 60% of it's cost back.

Would hardly call that zero skills. Support skills dont have to be stamina on stamina toons, they don't have to dodge and break free using magicka. As long as you can cast it and it does it's job it's a usuable skill. By your logic power surge isn't a support skill for Stam sorcs because it costs magicka to cast.

Lol hold this L for saying stam dks and stam sorcs do that, stam dks have noxious breath=major fracture and a dot with venemous claw, stam sorcs have hurricane and all their passives including implosion. I am talking about SUPPORTING DAMAGR ABILITIES. That's why we have terrible pve DPs. If you honestly think power of the light is good on live you have no idea what your talking about at all. And about the duels not to boast but I'm one of the top duelers on NA, got 3rd in the tournament hosted by ESO without any procs cuz I don't use them or heavy armor, you must have not dueled BSW Lich mag dks who hit 15k meteors followed by undodgeable flame lash...and FYI radiant aura gives you the same % buff as potions give you so its pointless to run...

NBrookus · January 2017

Neoauspex wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno please confirm that a representative of your company has read the entirety of @Joy_Division 's most recent post in this thread.

ZOS should pretty much run any changes past @Joy_Division while they are still on the drawing board.

MalakithAlamahdi · January 2017

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I can't even argue with you, your literally saying stamplar should just use weapon skill lines without opening up your mind to see how bad we are in PvE and PvP after all the facts I've given you. You win, I'm sure devs will see our little scuffle and revert change and give crescent sweep back to magicka im done arguing.

You know Stam dk's do excatly that in pvp as well right? You know that stam sorc uses mostly weapon skills as well right? Thats how stamina always worked and that's how it always should. The only exeption is NB here.

"mag dk vs stam dk needs no explanation meteor petrify combo insta death 9/10. "

If this happens to you i'm pretty sure i know who the noob is. Stam DK is one of the best duel classes you can have. Use a decent proc set on a stam templar and you can kill a magicka templar in one hit if he isn't using reactive. Stam sorcs can easily burst down mag sorcs, they are usually pet sorcs for a reason. You can block and heal trough radiant and it's interuptable, the only times i die to it are people spamming it in 1vsX.

If you got such issues with playing stamina in the stamina meta i suggest you go play something else.

EDIT:

Blinding Javelin - decent stun, also gets buffed next update.
Power of the Light - Debuff and can actually hit good since stamplars damage is pretty high. Also buffed next patch.
Rune focus - free to cast magicka skill, gives regen, gives armor, and gives major mending which is really strong in combination with vigor and rally.
Radiant Aura - 30% more regen, that's a lot. It also doesnt cost you your main pool to use.
Repentace - Still 10%, and great in cyrodiil and IC as there are usually corpses around.
You could even use honor the dead as a panic heal as it gives you 60% of it's cost back.

Would hardly call that zero skills. Support skills dont have to be stamina on stamina toons, they don't have to dodge and break free using magicka. As long as you can cast it and it does it's job it's a usuable skill. By your logic power surge isn't a support skill for Stam sorcs because it costs magicka to cast.

Lol hold this L for saying stam dks and stam sorcs do that, stam dks have noxious breath=major fracture and a dot with venemous claw, stam sorcs have hurricane and all their passives including implosion. I am talking about SUPPORTING DAMAGR ABILITIES. That's why we have terrible pve DPs. If you honestly think power of the light is good on live you have no idea what your talking about at all. And about the duels not to boast but I'm one of the top duelers on NA, got 3rd in the tournament hosted by ESO without any procs cuz I don't use them or heavy armor, you must have not dueled BSW Lich mag dks who hit 15k meteors followed by undodgeable flame lash...and FYI radiant aura gives you the same % buff as potions give you so its pointless to run...

Power of the light is quite usefull in PvP, if you actually know how to time your burst. I don't know about PvE, templars are far to boring in that aspect anyway if you ask me besides being a healer. Bragging on the forums is pointless if you don't have a video to show how "skilled" you are.

I got dueler on 5 characters and have been in a duel guild before the game was even on the PS4, so yea, i've dueled plenty of builds and people. I gave aura as an example as it's still an option, it's better than what magicka has since repentence doesn't even give us our primary stat back like it does with you.

By the sound of it you simply want to buff up your damage to compete with others in PvE, while you don't seem to understand it would make stamplar very unbalanced next to it's magicka counterpart if you do that. You'd have the damage of a ganker with the defensive utility of a templar, that sounds like fun.

I'm all fine with buffing a class, but keep your hands off of the skills of others if you already have better alternatives. Sweeps is actually very usefull to magicka templars, and stamina simply doesnt need it as much as magicka templars do, plenty of people have pointed that out aleady. Good luck using meteor without a stun.

And yes, stamina Dk's and Sorcs actually do use mostly non class skills in PvP, they always have. You could simply look up 10 builds online and count the amount of class skills on their bar if you haven't noticed it ingame yet.

templesus · January 2017

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I can't even argue with you, your literally saying stamplar should just use weapon skill lines without opening up your mind to see how bad we are in PvE and PvP after all the facts I've given you. You win, I'm sure devs will see our little scuffle and revert change and give crescent sweep back to magicka im done arguing.

You know Stam dk's do excatly that in pvp as well right? You know that stam sorc uses mostly weapon skills as well right? Thats how stamina always worked and that's how it always should. The only exeption is NB here.

"mag dk vs stam dk needs no explanation meteor petrify combo insta death 9/10. "

If this happens to you i'm pretty sure i know who the noob is. Stam DK is one of the best duel classes you can have. Use a decent proc set on a stam templar and you can kill a magicka templar in one hit if he isn't using reactive. Stam sorcs can easily burst down mag sorcs, they are usually pet sorcs for a reason. You can block and heal trough radiant and it's interuptable, the only times i die to it are people spamming it in 1vsX.

If you got such issues with playing stamina in the stamina meta i suggest you go play something else.

EDIT:

Blinding Javelin - decent stun, also gets buffed next update.
Power of the Light - Debuff and can actually hit good since stamplars damage is pretty high. Also buffed next patch.
Rune focus - free to cast magicka skill, gives regen, gives armor, and gives major mending which is really strong in combination with vigor and rally.
Radiant Aura - 30% more regen, that's a lot. It also doesnt cost you your main pool to use.
Repentace - Still 10%, and great in cyrodiil and IC as there are usually corpses around.
You could even use honor the dead as a panic heal as it gives you 60% of it's cost back.

Would hardly call that zero skills. Support skills dont have to be stamina on stamina toons, they don't have to dodge and break free using magicka. As long as you can cast it and it does it's job it's a usuable skill. By your logic power surge isn't a support skill for Stam sorcs because it costs magicka to cast.

Lol hold this L for saying stam dks and stam sorcs do that, stam dks have noxious breath=major fracture and a dot with venemous claw, stam sorcs have hurricane and all their passives including implosion. I am talking about SUPPORTING DAMAGR ABILITIES. That's why we have terrible pve DPs. If you honestly think power of the light is good on live you have no idea what your talking about at all. And about the duels not to boast but I'm one of the top duelers on NA, got 3rd in the tournament hosted by ESO without any procs cuz I don't use them or heavy armor, you must have not dueled BSW Lich mag dks who hit 15k meteors followed by undodgeable flame lash...and FYI radiant aura gives you the same % buff as potions give you so its pointless to run...

Power of the light is quite usefull in PvP, if you actually know how to time your burst. I don't know about PvE, templars are far to boring in that aspect anyway if you ask me besides being a healer. Bragging on the forums is pointless if you don't have a video to show how "skilled" you are.

I got dueler on 5 characters and have been in a duel guild before the game was even on the PS4, so yea, i've dueled plenty of builds and people. I gave aura as an example as it's still an option, it's better than what magicka has since repentence doesn't even give us our primary stat back like it does with you.

By the sound of it you simply want to buff up your damage to compete with others in PvE, while you don't seem to understand it would make stamplar very unbalanced next to it's magicka counterpart if you do that. You'd have the damage of a ganker with the defensive utility of a templar, that sounds like fun.

I'm all fine with buffing a class, but keep your hands off of the skills of others if you already have better alternatives. Sweeps is actually very usefull to magicka templars, and stamina simply doesnt need it as much as magicka templars do, plenty of people have pointed that out aleady. Good luck using meteor without a stun.

And yes, stamina Dk's and Sorcs actually do use mostly non class skills in PvP, they always have. You could simply look up 10 builds online and count the amount of class skills on their bar if you haven't noticed it ingame yet.

Lol u got this mess twisted..all I've asked for is sustain buff. I'd give back crescent for sustain buff.

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I can't even argue with you, your literally saying stamplar should just use weapon skill lines without opening up your mind to see how bad we are in PvE and PvP after all the facts I've given you. You win, I'm sure devs will see our little scuffle and revert change and give crescent sweep back to magicka im done arguing.

You know Stam dk's do excatly that in pvp as well right? You know that stam sorc uses mostly weapon skills as well right? Thats how stamina always worked and that's how it always should. The only exeption is NB here.

"mag dk vs stam dk needs no explanation meteor petrify combo insta death 9/10. "

If this happens to you i'm pretty sure i know who the noob is. Stam DK is one of the best duel classes you can have. Use a decent proc set on a stam templar and you can kill a magicka templar in one hit if he isn't using reactive. Stam sorcs can easily burst down mag sorcs, they are usually pet sorcs for a reason. You can block and heal trough radiant and it's interuptable, the only times i die to it are people spamming it in 1vsX.

If you got such issues with playing stamina in the stamina meta i suggest you go play something else.

EDIT:

Blinding Javelin - decent stun, also gets buffed next update.
Power of the Light - Debuff and can actually hit good since stamplars damage is pretty high. Also buffed next patch.
Rune focus - free to cast magicka skill, gives regen, gives armor, and gives major mending which is really strong in combination with vigor and rally.
Radiant Aura - 30% more regen, that's a lot. It also doesnt cost you your main pool to use.
Repentace - Still 10%, and great in cyrodiil and IC as there are usually corpses around.
You could even use honor the dead as a panic heal as it gives you 60% of it's cost back.

Would hardly call that zero skills. Support skills dont have to be stamina on stamina toons, they don't have to dodge and break free using magicka. As long as you can cast it and it does it's job it's a usuable skill. By your logic power surge isn't a support skill for Stam sorcs because it costs magicka to cast.

Lol hold this L for saying stam dks and stam sorcs do that, stam dks have noxious breath=major fracture and a dot with venemous claw, stam sorcs have hurricane and all their passives including implosion. I am talking about SUPPORTING DAMAGR ABILITIES. That's why we have terrible pve DPs. If you honestly think power of the light is good on live you have no idea what your talking about at all. And about the duels not to boast but I'm one of the top duelers on NA, got 3rd in the tournament hosted by ESO without any procs cuz I don't use them or heavy armor, you must have not dueled BSW Lich mag dks who hit 15k meteors followed by undodgeable flame lash...and FYI radiant aura gives you the same % buff as potions give you so its pointless to run...

There just isn't any point to argue this anymore @MalakithAlamahdi, what started as a debate about Crescent Sweep has turned into a debate about the class as a whole from a guy who sites himself as a 1vX Dueler Main Stamplar. Argues that DBoS doesn't hit hard and NEEDS a 'Incap like' Crescent sweep to be competitive in PvP. His argument imo is a bias one pushing for Stamplar to have more one shot potential which it already has with DBoS.

Stamplar is not weak in PvP, it has the best healing of the stam classes, stick troll king on medium armor stamplar and they have insane healing. Lack of class DoT sure, being forced into 2 main playstyles with DW rending and Twin Blade and Blunt abuse or Dizzying Swing spam, then sure these are problems, does CS change any of this? No. Is another Incap (Which btw imo; incap problem isn't even the dmg it's the 20% increased Dmg with a heal defile) what the game needs? No.

PvE yes, Stamplar is awful from reasons you described I agree, lack of class orientated DoTs is the reason for that 100% I also can not stress that enough, but back to the original argument, CS won't change that either, CS is trash for PvE and raids and won't help Stamplars case there, Stamina is an overall problem in PvE however and needs some love so it isn't just a stamplar problem.

On the flip side remove CS from Magicka Templar and you only force its hands like its Stamina counterpart, forced into destro playstyles since meteor is not reliable ultimate for Templar due to p*** poor CC, made even worse next patch, can't stress enough how making range CC forcing opponents away from you is not advantageous for melee classes (Affects Magicka and Stamina). So javelin is not imo a viable replacement for Blazing Spear, this skill only encourages and mainly used in groups spamming it at lesser players trying to run away or regroup (Same goes for stonefist, as soon as you are hit by stonefist you know you're about to get zerged, issue be even more problematic with chains next patch, but I digress). You take away only low costing ultimate for magicka besides SA and bats, SA is, despite it's lack of counters, underwhelming unless in a vX situation being pinned down with it basically, Bats is just a free heal for an ultimate and not particularly offensive enough likewise the other morph since I tested it, is awful and just useful for pointless spambushing in more vX situations.

templesus · January 2017

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I can't even argue with you, your literally saying stamplar should just use weapon skill lines without opening up your mind to see how bad we are in PvE and PvP after all the facts I've given you. You win, I'm sure devs will see our little scuffle and revert change and give crescent sweep back to magicka im done arguing.

You know Stam dk's do excatly that in pvp as well right? You know that stam sorc uses mostly weapon skills as well right? Thats how stamina always worked and that's how it always should. The only exeption is NB here.

"mag dk vs stam dk needs no explanation meteor petrify combo insta death 9/10. "

If this happens to you i'm pretty sure i know who the noob is. Stam DK is one of the best duel classes you can have. Use a decent proc set on a stam templar and you can kill a magicka templar in one hit if he isn't using reactive. Stam sorcs can easily burst down mag sorcs, they are usually pet sorcs for a reason. You can block and heal trough radiant and it's interuptable, the only times i die to it are people spamming it in 1vsX.

If you got such issues with playing stamina in the stamina meta i suggest you go play something else.

EDIT:

Blinding Javelin - decent stun, also gets buffed next update.
Power of the Light - Debuff and can actually hit good since stamplars damage is pretty high. Also buffed next patch.
Rune focus - free to cast magicka skill, gives regen, gives armor, and gives major mending which is really strong in combination with vigor and rally.
Radiant Aura - 30% more regen, that's a lot. It also doesnt cost you your main pool to use.
Repentace - Still 10%, and great in cyrodiil and IC as there are usually corpses around.
You could even use honor the dead as a panic heal as it gives you 60% of it's cost back.

Would hardly call that zero skills. Support skills dont have to be stamina on stamina toons, they don't have to dodge and break free using magicka. As long as you can cast it and it does it's job it's a usuable skill. By your logic power surge isn't a support skill for Stam sorcs because it costs magicka to cast.

Lol hold this L for saying stam dks and stam sorcs do that, stam dks have noxious breath=major fracture and a dot with venemous claw, stam sorcs have hurricane and all their passives including implosion. I am talking about SUPPORTING DAMAGR ABILITIES. That's why we have terrible pve DPs. If you honestly think power of the light is good on live you have no idea what your talking about at all. And about the duels not to boast but I'm one of the top duelers on NA, got 3rd in the tournament hosted by ESO without any procs cuz I don't use them or heavy armor, you must have not dueled BSW Lich mag dks who hit 15k meteors followed by undodgeable flame lash...and FYI radiant aura gives you the same % buff as potions give you so its pointless to run...

There just isn't any point to argue this anymore @MalakithAlamahdi, what started as a debate about Crescent Sweep has turned into a debate about the class as a whole from a guy who sites himself as a 1vX Dueler Main Stamplar. Argues that DBoS doesn't hit hard and NEEDS a 'Incap like' Crescent sweep to be competitive in PvP. His argument imo is a bias one pushing for Stamplar to have more one shot potential which it already has with DBoS.

Stamplar is not weak in PvP, it has the best healing of the stam classes, stick troll king on medium armor stamplar and they have insane healing. Lack of class DoT sure, being forced into 2 main playstyles with DW rending and Twin Blade and Blunt abuse or Dizzying Swing spam, then sure these are problems, does CS change any of this? No. Is another Incap (Which btw imo; incap problem isn't even the dmg it's the 20% increased Dmg with a heal defile) what the game needs? No.

PvE yes, Stamplar is awful from reasons you described I agree, lack of class orientated DoTs is the reason for that 100% I also can not stress that enough, but back to the original argument, CS won't change that either, CS is trash for PvE and raids and won't help Stamplars case there, Stamina is an overall problem in PvE however and needs some love so it isn't just a stamplar problem.

On the flip side remove CS from Magicka Templar and you only force its hands like its Stamina counterpart, forced into destro playstyles since meteor is not reliable ultimate for Templar due to p*** poor CC, made even worse next patch, can't stress enough how making range CC forcing opponents away from you is not advantageous for melee classes (Affects Magicka and Stamina). So javelin is not imo a viable replacement for Blazing Spear, this skill only encourages and mainly used in groups spamming it at lesser players trying to run away or regroup (Same goes for stonefist, as soon as you are hit by stonefist you know you're about to get zerged, issue be even more problematic with chains next patch, but I digress). You take away only low costing ultimate for magicka besides SA and bats, SA is, despite it's lack of counters, underwhelming unless in a vX situation being pinned down with it basically, Bats is just a free heal for an ultimate and not particularly offensive enough likewise the other morph since I tested it, is awful and just useful for pointless spambushing in more vX situations.

Like I just said and said immediately after the stamplar changes were announced pages back, I'd weather give crescent back and have a sustain buff instead.

MalakithAlamahdi · January 2017

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I can't even argue with you, your literally saying stamplar should just use weapon skill lines without opening up your mind to see how bad we are in PvE and PvP after all the facts I've given you. You win, I'm sure devs will see our little scuffle and revert change and give crescent sweep back to magicka im done arguing.

You know Stam dk's do excatly that in pvp as well right? You know that stam sorc uses mostly weapon skills as well right? Thats how stamina always worked and that's how it always should. The only exeption is NB here.

"mag dk vs stam dk needs no explanation meteor petrify combo insta death 9/10. "

If this happens to you i'm pretty sure i know who the noob is. Stam DK is one of the best duel classes you can have. Use a decent proc set on a stam templar and you can kill a magicka templar in one hit if he isn't using reactive. Stam sorcs can easily burst down mag sorcs, they are usually pet sorcs for a reason. You can block and heal trough radiant and it's interuptable, the only times i die to it are people spamming it in 1vsX.

If you got such issues with playing stamina in the stamina meta i suggest you go play something else.

EDIT:

Blinding Javelin - decent stun, also gets buffed next update.
Power of the Light - Debuff and can actually hit good since stamplars damage is pretty high. Also buffed next patch.
Rune focus - free to cast magicka skill, gives regen, gives armor, and gives major mending which is really strong in combination with vigor and rally.
Radiant Aura - 30% more regen, that's a lot. It also doesnt cost you your main pool to use.
Repentace - Still 10%, and great in cyrodiil and IC as there are usually corpses around.
You could even use honor the dead as a panic heal as it gives you 60% of it's cost back.

Would hardly call that zero skills. Support skills dont have to be stamina on stamina toons, they don't have to dodge and break free using magicka. As long as you can cast it and it does it's job it's a usuable skill. By your logic power surge isn't a support skill for Stam sorcs because it costs magicka to cast.

Lol hold this L for saying stam dks and stam sorcs do that, stam dks have noxious breath=major fracture and a dot with venemous claw, stam sorcs have hurricane and all their passives including implosion. I am talking about SUPPORTING DAMAGR ABILITIES. That's why we have terrible pve DPs. If you honestly think power of the light is good on live you have no idea what your talking about at all. And about the duels not to boast but I'm one of the top duelers on NA, got 3rd in the tournament hosted by ESO without any procs cuz I don't use them or heavy armor, you must have not dueled BSW Lich mag dks who hit 15k meteors followed by undodgeable flame lash...and FYI radiant aura gives you the same % buff as potions give you so its pointless to run...

There just isn't any point to argue this anymore @MalakithAlamahdi, what started as a debate about Crescent Sweep has turned into a debate about the class as a whole from a guy who sites himself as a 1vX Dueler Main Stamplar. Argues that DBoS doesn't hit hard and NEEDS a 'Incap like' Crescent sweep to be competitive in PvP. His argument imo is a bias one pushing for Stamplar to have more one shot potential which it already has with DBoS.

Stamplar is not weak in PvP, it has the best healing of the stam classes, stick troll king on medium armor stamplar and they have insane healing. Lack of class DoT sure, being forced into 2 main playstyles with DW rending and Twin Blade and Blunt abuse or Dizzying Swing spam, then sure these are problems, does CS change any of this? No. Is another Incap (Which btw imo; incap problem isn't even the dmg it's the 20% increased Dmg with a heal defile) what the game needs? No.

PvE yes, Stamplar is awful from reasons you described I agree, lack of class orientated DoTs is the reason for that 100% I also can not stress that enough, but back to the original argument, CS won't change that either, CS is trash for PvE and raids and won't help Stamplars case there, Stamina is an overall problem in PvE however and needs some love so it isn't just a stamplar problem.

On the flip side remove CS from Magicka Templar and you only force its hands like its Stamina counterpart, forced into destro playstyles since meteor is not reliable ultimate for Templar due to p*** poor CC, made even worse next patch, can't stress enough how making range CC forcing opponents away from you is not advantageous for melee classes (Affects Magicka and Stamina). So javelin is not imo a viable replacement for Blazing Spear, this skill only encourages and mainly used in groups spamming it at lesser players trying to run away or regroup (Same goes for stonefist, as soon as you are hit by stonefist you know you're about to get zerged, issue be even more problematic with chains next patch, but I digress). You take away only low costing ultimate for magicka besides SA and bats, SA is, despite it's lack of counters, underwhelming unless in a vX situation being pinned down with it basically, Bats is just a free heal for an ultimate and not particularly offensive enough likewise the other morph since I tested it, is awful and just useful for pointless spambushing in more vX situations.

Should have read his old comments before even starting an discussion with him, i guess that's my fault then. It's good to see you actually post constructive posts that don't ramble and brag to anyone who doesn't agree with them. I hope they rewind the Spears and Crescent Sweep change. Not only will it be very painfull for magicka templars, but Crescent will hit like a truck if it get's changed to physical.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO · January 2017

They should make one of the Supernova morphs a burst damage spell so MagPlars don't have to run Crescent Sweep or Ice Comet for burst.

Then keep the Crescent Sweep morph for Stam users.

Cinbri · January 2017

Red telegraph of Blazing Spear still showing wrong old radius of DoT:

MalakithAlamahdi · January 2017

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I can't even argue with you, your literally saying stamplar should just use weapon skill lines without opening up your mind to see how bad we are in PvE and PvP after all the facts I've given you. You win, I'm sure devs will see our little scuffle and revert change and give crescent sweep back to magicka im done arguing.

You know Stam dk's do excatly that in pvp as well right? You know that stam sorc uses mostly weapon skills as well right? Thats how stamina always worked and that's how it always should. The only exeption is NB here.

"mag dk vs stam dk needs no explanation meteor petrify combo insta death 9/10. "

If this happens to you i'm pretty sure i know who the noob is. Stam DK is one of the best duel classes you can have. Use a decent proc set on a stam templar and you can kill a magicka templar in one hit if he isn't using reactive. Stam sorcs can easily burst down mag sorcs, they are usually pet sorcs for a reason. You can block and heal trough radiant and it's interuptable, the only times i die to it are people spamming it in 1vsX.

If you got such issues with playing stamina in the stamina meta i suggest you go play something else.

EDIT:

Blinding Javelin - decent stun, also gets buffed next update.
Power of the Light - Debuff and can actually hit good since stamplars damage is pretty high. Also buffed next patch.
Rune focus - free to cast magicka skill, gives regen, gives armor, and gives major mending which is really strong in combination with vigor and rally.
Radiant Aura - 30% more regen, that's a lot. It also doesnt cost you your main pool to use.
Repentace - Still 10%, and great in cyrodiil and IC as there are usually corpses around.
You could even use honor the dead as a panic heal as it gives you 60% of it's cost back.

Would hardly call that zero skills. Support skills dont have to be stamina on stamina toons, they don't have to dodge and break free using magicka. As long as you can cast it and it does it's job it's a usuable skill. By your logic power surge isn't a support skill for Stam sorcs because it costs magicka to cast.

Lol hold this L for saying stam dks and stam sorcs do that, stam dks have noxious breath=major fracture and a dot with venemous claw, stam sorcs have hurricane and all their passives including implosion. I am talking about SUPPORTING DAMAGR ABILITIES. That's why we have terrible pve DPs. If you honestly think power of the light is good on live you have no idea what your talking about at all. And about the duels not to boast but I'm one of the top duelers on NA, got 3rd in the tournament hosted by ESO without any procs cuz I don't use them or heavy armor, you must have not dueled BSW Lich mag dks who hit 15k meteors followed by undodgeable flame lash...and FYI radiant aura gives you the same % buff as potions give you so its pointless to run...

Power of the light is quite usefull in PvP, if you actually know how to time your burst. I don't know about PvE, templars are far to boring in that aspect anyway if you ask me besides being a healer. Bragging on the forums is pointless if you don't have a video to show how "skilled" you are.

I got dueler on 5 characters and have been in a duel guild before the game was even on the PS4, so yea, i've dueled plenty of builds and people. I gave aura as an example as it's still an option, it's better than what magicka has since repentence doesn't even give us our primary stat back like it does with you.

By the sound of it you simply want to buff up your damage to compete with others in PvE, while you don't seem to understand it would make stamplar very unbalanced next to it's magicka counterpart if you do that. You'd have the damage of a ganker with the defensive utility of a templar, that sounds like fun.

I'm all fine with buffing a class, but keep your hands off of the skills of others if you already have better alternatives. Sweeps is actually very usefull to magicka templars, and stamina simply doesnt need it as much as magicka templars do, plenty of people have pointed that out aleady. Good luck using meteor without a stun.

And yes, stamina Dk's and Sorcs actually do use mostly non class skills in PvP, they always have. You could simply look up 10 builds online and count the amount of class skills on their bar if you haven't noticed it ingame yet.

Lol u got this mess twisted..all I've asked for is sustain buff. I'd give back crescent for sustain buff.

My first comments were about Crescent, you started about sustain. You char having sustain issues isn't a valid reason to strip all the magicka templars of their only decent ultimate. You already have better choices reguarding ultimates than us. That was what my comment was about, you derailed it and i simply replied to what you said. If you want your issues fixed go whine at ZoS, but tell them to leave our single good skills alone. There is nothing that can good talk this change.

Very constructive comment btw.

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

@MalakithAlamahdi Thank you and @templesus Least now we have common ground, sustain for stamplar is harder ofc, I agree, it only rewards hit it and quit it styles of play with repentence and THAT is the only justification I can have for stamina CS for a quicker repentence (DBoS has almost same effect), but that doesn't help class as a whole or duels or with impending tank metas.

Do not forget sustain isn't something we should focus on, twiddling with class passive and such imo since every patch and CP increase sustain is put through the roof, combine this with the new Stamina recipe with Jester Festival, max health, max stam and stam recovery, stam sustain will be through the roof with little penalty as magicka builds using witchmother lose their max stamina pool which is vital to blocking (well maybe not all builds next patch) and CC breaks (Again maybe not next patch due to change to CC immunity for those who do not break, rewarding poor play). However this with more CP increases for more points in blocking, tumbling, stam regen also pushes sustain of magicka builds in future also.

So if ZoS made these changes with this in mind, imo they are good changes with foresight because that recipe is a game changer, especially for Heavy armor users so max health isn't affected too much and for medium armor Imperials who will benefit most from the change.

I would just like to point out also that stamina builds with introduction to stam morphs will suffer least with their lower magicka pool and will benefit greatly from the new recipe and stamplar can even just switch morph of repentance if they like to upkeep purge and focus with a low magicka pool also and free 350+ regen.

MalakithAlamahdi · January 2017

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@MalakithAlamahdi Thank you and @templesus Least now we have common ground, sustain for stamplar is harder ofc, I agree, it only rewards hit it and quit it styles of play with repentence and THAT is the only justification I can have for stamina CS for a quicker repentence (DBoS has almost same effect), but that doesn't help class as a whole or duels or with impending tank metas.

Do not forget sustain isn't something we should focus on, twiddling with class passive and such imo since every patch and CP increase sustain is put through the roof, combine this with the new Stamina recipe with Jester Festival, max health, max stam and stam recovery, stam sustain will be through the roof with little penalty as magicka builds using witchmother lose their max stamina pool which is vital to blocking (well maybe not all builds next patch) and CC breaks (Again maybe not next patch due to change to CC immunity for those who do not break, rewarding poor play). However this with more CP increases for more points in blocking, tumbling, stam regen also pushes sustain of magicka builds in future also.

So if ZoS made these changes with this in mind, imo they are good changes with foresight because that recipe is a game changer, especially for Heavy armor users so max health isn't affected too much and for medium armor Imperials who will benefit most from the change.

I would just like to point out also that stamina builds with introduction to stam morphs will suffer least with their lower magicka pool and will benefit greatly from the new recipe and stamplar can even just switch morph of repentance if they like to upkeep purge and focus with a low magicka pool also and free 350+ regen.

I think it would help quite a bit as well if they made the 20% buff from aura different from the 20% regen buffs potions give. That way stamina templars can have about 20% more stamina regen which helps in their sustain. It would also give magicka a little bit more but that wouldnt be so bad either since they genrally need to get close as well. So giving them a bit more stamina regen to CC break and block wouldnt be so bad either.

Spearblade · January 2017

I think there should be magicka and stamina morphs for every Class skill at this point in the game. At launch, I don't think ZOS envisioned the narrow magicka OR stamina class system that we have now. I think they planned on more hybrids, and mixing of the skills to make precisely what YOU wanted to play.

Unfortunately, that's not the case, and we have a "two party" system.

Part of the issue for magicka users, imo, is that Destruction staff is a SINGLE skill line, with three different flavors impacting skills (fire, frost, shock). This was a lazy cop out, imho. Each staff should have its own unique skills, and morphs.

However, that's not the case. And it results with magicka users feeling entitled to most, if not all, of the actual CLASS skills. If there weren't stamina class morphs, the result would be flavorless husks that all play EXACTLY the same way, and stamina players would simply pick the class with the most beneficial passives.

I think magicka players are justified in their demand for SOMETHING- but demanding that the only unique skill trees among all 4 Classes, are theirs, is WRONG. Another thing I'd like to point out is the fact that only magicka characters can successfully fill all three roles- tank, healer, and dps. And in many cases, better than their Stamina counterparts.

That being said, I do agree that Stamplar should have an ultimate that scales with stamina/weapon damage. Otherwise, they don't have ANY options until maxing Fighter's Guild or a Weapon skill line (REMEMBER THE CASUALS! THEY EXIST, JUST NOT ON THE FORUMS).

I agree that a gap closer is not an unreasonable request, especially given the almost complete disuse of one of the morphs (Explosive Charge), and the magplar's ability to also dps well at range.

As mentioned earlier, Nightblades have many stamina tools available to them (Surprise Attack, Ambush, Incapacitating Strike, Power Extraction, Relentless Focus, Killer's Blade) which helps give them identity, and in my humble opinion, without detracting from the identity of the Magicka Nightblade.

I would say that Nightblades are likely in the best position to be a sort of model for other classes to follow, including Templars, when it comes to balancing Magicka and Stamina skills.

templesus · January 2017

Spearblade wrote: »

I think there should be magicka and stamina morphs for every Class skill at this point in the game. At launch, I don't think ZOS envisioned the narrow magicka OR stamina class system that we have now. I think they planned on more hybrids, and mixing of the skills to make precisely what YOU wanted to play.

Unfortunately, that's not the case, and we have a "two party" system.

Part of the issue for magicka users, imo, is that Destruction staff is a SINGLE skill line, with three different flavors impacting skills (fire, frost, shock). This was a lazy cop out, imho. Each staff should have its own unique skills, and morphs.

However, that's not the case. And it results with magicka users feeling entitled to most, if not all, of the actual CLASS skills. If there weren't stamina class morphs, the result would be flavorless husks that all play EXACTLY the same way, and stamina players would simply pick the class with the most beneficial passives.

I think magicka players are justified in their demand for SOMETHING- but demanding that the only unique skill trees among all 4 Classes, are theirs, is WRONG. Another thing I'd like to point out is the fact that only magicka characters can successfully fill all three roles- tank, healer, and dps. And in many cases, better than their Stamina counterparts.

That being said, I do agree that Stamplar should have an ultimate that scales with stamina/weapon damage. Otherwise, they don't have ANY options until maxing Fighter's Guild or a Weapon skill line (REMEMBER THE CASUALS! THEY EXIST, JUST NOT ON THE FORUMS).

I agree that a gap closer is not an unreasonable request, especially given the almost complete disuse of one of the morphs (Explosive Charge), and the magplar's ability to also dps well at range.

As mentioned earlier, Nightblades have many stamina tools available to them (Surprise Attack, Ambush, Incapacitating Strike, Power Extraction, Relentless Focus, Killer's Blade) which helps give them identity, and in my humble opinion, without detracting from the identity of the Magicka Nightblade.

I would say that Nightblades are likely in the best position to be a sort of model for other classes to follow, including Templars, when it comes to balancing Magicka and Stamina skills.

No, then there becomes no diversity between magicka and stam. Stamplars just need a sustain buff so we don't have to suffer a lot of damage and we will be fine.

Ashamray · January 2017

@Cinbri
@Joy_Division

Guys, your deep knowledge of the Templar class and informative tireless feedback are awesome. Thank you.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · January 2017

NBrookus wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno please confirm that a representative of your company has read the entirety of @Joy_Division 's most recent post in this thread.

ZOS should pretty much run any changes past @Joy_Division while they are still on the drawing board.

Well everything except trainee

The rest I'm cool with.

EarthenPillar · January 2017

Please consider reworking the Templar's abilities as a healer and group support.

Right now in competitive PvE, players who wish to partake the healer role has no other choice but to take the Templar class and it's playstyle. Their utilities such as the accessibility to Major Mending, party support in stamina gain from Spear Shards, and mitigation of damage from Nova make it extraordinarily implausible to compete as other classes in performing as a healer.

Ashamray · January 2017

EarthenPillar wrote: »

Please consider reworking the Templar's abilities as a healer and group support.

Right now in competitive PvE, players who wish to partake the healer role has no other choice but to take the Templar class and it's playstyle. Their utilities such as the accessibility to Major Mending, party support in stamina gain from Spear Shards, and mitigation of damage from Nova make it extraordinarily implausible to compete as other classes in performing as a healer.

You're wrong. Main reason is not Mending (Restostaff 3 sec, DKs have even constant one), not Nova (Veil of Blades, hello), not Spear Shards (DD's throw it anyway). The reason is a Breath of Life.

maxjapank · January 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

10. Piercing Javelin - this skill still weak and CC of magicka morph is not viable, utility-cost is too low (just compare it with dk's Stonefist). How about make it unblockable, so it will counter permablockers, and more important - stamplars will get skill that can be used to fight those permablockers, as it is only class stamina build that can't deal with blocking target. Also they won't need to slot magicka skill Luminous Shards for that purpose.

Personally I feel Aurora Javelin is fine as is. From a distance, it hits quite hard and can proc burning light. The knockback cc is very effective and has helped me land kills or helped my teammates land kills.

I was just as surprised as everyone else at the stun removal from Blazing Shards. I don't think the explanation given was adequate. But Blazing Shards is still a very powerful aoe spell with its buring procs, and 25% stam return synergy.

Nazarousb14_ESO · January 2017

Any one else not getting damage increase from lightning or flame staff on all the Templar abilities?
I set up identical bars and gear on both bars save one was Inferno staff the other lightning, and no matter what ability I used it always did the same damage with both staves.

utb99 · January 2017

Magicka Templar In-Class CC's:
Toppling Charge (Requires distance, clunky, and barely works)
Javelin (Is a shuffable projectile that is expensive and knockbacks your oppenent rather than utilizes a proper stun)
Eclipse (Oppenent is required to break it, very situational and too expensive)
Luminous (TERRIBLE)

Blazing Spear (Descent CC ability with mediocre damage)
By removing Blazing Spear you are taking Magicka Templar's only reliable CC ability. The extra seconds of ground AoE damage is laughable. Spear was not used for its damage but for the STUN.

Every class has access to a descent stun (Fear, Fossilize/Stonefist, Frags), (most stam weapon lines have built in stuns like Dizzying Swing, Draining Shot, Reverb Bash, etc.) (The ONLY stun from staffs is D. Clench which is not good), why single out Magicka Templars of all classes?

Myerscod · January 2017

If reverting the change to Blazing Spear is a no go would it be possible to change the disorient on luminous to a stun so you have 1 morph = more damage and 1 morph = usable cc

Cinbri · January 2017

Myerscod wrote: »

If reverting the change to Blazing Spear is a no go would it be possible to change the disorient on luminous to a stun so you have 1 morph = more damage and 1 morph = usable cc

I see it as main reasonable solution. Disorient obviously will never work on spammable AoE dps skill, so it should be changed to Stun effect, but stun that will ignore blocking, otherwise without possibility to CC permablockers this morph will be so terrible that won't be even worse to pick it over Blazing and Templar itself will be only class that don't have tool against permablockers. Also would be nice if instead of 1 unblockable 6 sec stun, Luminous would apply unblockable 3 sec stun on 2 enemies.

NoFlash · January 2017

Give templar a CC that is unblockable (useful for magicka or stamina builds) or leave the CC on blazing spear. Possibly rework Eclipse and it's morphs for this since it is one of the least used skills for templars.

Give stamplars better resource management for PvE & PvP that doesn't involve sets/heavy attacking and give them some group utilities for end game PvE

Keep Live's current Radiant Destruction damage but make it start scaling after 30% instead of 50% and reduce the max range to 20m w/ Reach rank 2 passive otherwise the max range is 15m anywhere else other than a keep. (15m is a nice range to protect ones home.)

@ZOS_RichLambert