PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Balance Improvements

templesus · January 2017

NBrookus wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Seriously. Not like we will be any more mobile because it already seems like we move in slow mo compared to other classes except maybe DK but they can talon people to help them keep up.

Given the tiny radius of talons, you aren't catching anyone with them if they are moving away. DK slow-someone-down-at-range skill is pretty much the same: stonefist = javelin.

You mean petrify, the unblockable and undodgeable cc that also roots. Paired with the fact there abilities(flame lash) are undodgeable even if you try and run/dodger old away you are still taking damage.

Syiccal · January 2017

stamplars need 1 thing to compete.
passive skills for sustain as we're only class that suffer from this ..
repentance is only usefull with bodies on ground!

Syiccal · January 2017

would love feedback from zos on whether or not we can expect some sustain changes next patch.
lowering cost of jabs etc doesn't go far enough when your fighting dks with battle roar and helping hands or stam sorcs with dark deal or nb's with syphoning attacks.

templesus · January 2017

Syiccal wrote: »

would love feedback from zos on whether or not we can expect some sustain changes next patch.
lowering cost of jabs etc doesn't go far enough when your fighting dks with battle roar and helping hands or stam sorcs with dark deal or nb's with syphoning attacks.

Don't bother, I've made detailed posts several times outlining this issue, 0 attention.

OdinForge · January 2017

The cost reduction for jabs and javelin is really nice glad it got fixed, but it still doesn't solve the problem of Stamplar having *** sustain. I still feel pressured into running regen drink on my Stamplar, more than any other class for stamina.

Undodgable jabs doesn't feel like undodgeable sweeps, I didn't notice it in duels.

BigES · January 2017

1. Allow players to rotate when they are rooted. (stupid OP mechanic anyways)

2. Allow jabs to move with the reticle better so we can actually land our damage.

BigES · January 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Glad you found the comments useful!

We're still evaluating the overall balance, and will continue to do so after PTS is back online and we collect more feedback when you have a chance to test the changes. There likely won't be any large, sweeping changes at this point, though.

That said, we know everyone is very passionate about their classes, but please keep your comments constructive. If you'd like to see something changed, let us know and explain why. Hop onto the PTS and try out the changes we've made so far, and explain why you do or don't like some of the things you see. Also, keep in mind if we don't implement some of your feedback, it could be due to a number of reasons. Balance is one of those things that affect the entire game, and when we're working with four different classes, there's a lot to consider. We are reading, though, and appreciate the time you take writing out your thoughts.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

I did this. I did a whole Templar run in Maelstrom arena (on a template). I also participated in some duels for PvP insight. This isn't theoretical complaining. This is hours of PTS experience.

See here:

Cute reward for the house by the way:

Weapon was a charged bow. Not so cute. Please do something with weapon and armor traits.

It's been months since I have run Maelstrom, so I was a little rusty. The most apparent thing I noticed on the PTS is that the Power Creep is real and Out of Control. Enemies, including bosses, died so fast it was difficult for me to assess just how effective the abilities are because vMA is no longer competitive content: I can ignore most of the mechanics even on a template with crappy gear and me being totally out of practice. I'm not sure why the developers feel the same basic combat mechanics that were introduced when we had 18,000 health and did 14K DPS works fine when we have 18,000 health and do 55K DPS, but I think that is the underlying cause for much of the complaints in PvP. Since there won't be any "large sweeping changes," I'll leave it at that and suggest ZoS look into that for the future.

*******As far as the changes to Templar:******

Stamina stuff I never ran a stamplar so I'm not the right person to ask. I'm pretty sure I would still use Dawnbreaker over Crescent Sweep though. I dislike Crescent because the range is too short and ultimates that just do damage have to do a lot of damage IMHO and this one doesn't.

Radiant aura. I tried this but stuff died so fast using the skill was actually a net loss. I am familiar enough with the magickasteal mechanic, however, to recognize that in competitive environments Vs. numerous enemies this would be an excellent resource management skill. I would want a templar in my raid using this so, This change has Joy's stamp of approval

Backlash Because I think this is ignoring Battle Spirit, I did not use in while dueling. Even with Battle Spirit, if this works out to be 10K, which is half my tooltip, then that is too strong. A sorcerer has to devote a lot toward damage to even get a 8K crit curse and that class is designed for burst unlike a templar. My gut tells me the "PvE Raid" mechanics this spell uses makes it trouble for PvP. This must be closely monitored when it gets bug-fixed and ZoS needs to implement a rapid balance should this turn out to be too strong.

Piercing Javelin To be honest, I never though the projectile speed was too slow or that it was difficult to hit targets with this spell. It's a buff, so I suppose as a templar I'll take it. I still think this ability is too expensive for what it does.

Radial Sweep I think the miss issues the spell has goes beyond it getting dodged as NPCs do not have Major Evasion. As far as the mgaicka version Empowering goes, I view this ultimate as strictly niche; a DPS will never use it, it won't improve Maelstrom Arena times, a tank will want Warhorn or something to buff the group, etc. I like the versatile mechanics, but the short range of this skill undermines it; it is just easier to use the destro ultimate.

Radiant Destruction : I felt the 21% damage decrease; it is significant and too much. The best reform proposal I have seen is to make the damage also scale with range. If you are right in the grill of the target, have it do that damage currently on Live. The further away you are, the less damage this does.

Healing Ritual: I ran solo so I was unable to test thus. When I see and end game competitive Trial Guilds have their templars use this spell to heal the tank in Hel-Ra hardmode or in Maw, then I will believe the concept of a delayed heal is worth it in this meta of one-shots and high burst damage. Until then, I will continue to use Healing Springs.

Eclipse Every time the PTS comes up, I make it very clear why people will not use this spell and with every patch it doesn’t get used. I don’t mean to toot my own horn, however nobody on the PC NA server has used this ability more than I have. Easily over 10,000 casts. It is too expensive. Its defensive effects only work against weak NPCs and inexperienced players. Its damage is too underwhelming. This patch has done nothing with respect to these issues.

I tried it again in vMA:
Magicka ran dry. It's easier to take the 3 seconds to kill the ranged mages

Useless against the Firespinners. That's what I need to reflect.

Used this against players:
Magicka ran dry.

Max spell cost for 2K damage. Way too inefficient

Reflected nothing one opponent used. Other opponent simply broke and took the small damage and enjoyed CC immunity

Stopped using it. Immediately did better

The offensive morph is the most inefficient skill in the game. These characters have the exact same gear.

A sorcerer will spend 2000 magicka to do 23,400 unblockable damage in 8.5 seconds.
A Templar will spend 6000 magicka to do 18,500 blockable damage in 14+ seconds.

I already wrote how and and why some minor changes to the skill would make it potentially more useful here. In short:
It. Is.Too. Inefficient. Adjust cost of spell or damage or augment its effects.

Make both morphs reflect. Damage morph is pointless because it's so inefficient. Dark morph heals. Unstable doesn't and instead does more damage. Just like old spell.

It reflects spells, not projectiles. Just like it used to.

Drak morph gives templar so minor buff. Unstable morph debuffs enemy. That way when CC broken, the templar still gets some benefit.

Blazing Spear - I didn't like the patch notes when I saw them. After playing with this on the PTS, I can 100% say in confidence that the changes contradict the reasoning given by @ZOS_RichLambert " [Blazing Spear] falls into the “simplify” category ... Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels."

Veteran Maelstrom Arena is going to be harder for all players of all skill levels with this change. Yes, a pure DPS rotation against a target dummy will be a little easier and more efficient with the extra 2 seconds of damage. But the game isn't played against target dummies. The most efficient and versatile use of this skill was to stun dangerous adds while putting decent damage on them. In particular rounds 5 (Ice flows), 8 (fire spinners) and 9 (Final) is where this skill really shines because the sheer number of high damaging (and ranged) adds. Lacking the stun, I was overwhelmed and died at some points where I know I would not have been with the old spell.

Could I adjust my build? Yes, but it would be less efficient, less effective, and make my rotations and general survival more difficult. I tried Eclipse. Terrible. If I want the CC, then it's Javelin or Destructive reach, which are single target as opposed to AoE and lose the valuable Burning Light procs. The best solution is what it always is in ESO moar damage. So just live without the stuns, and throw up an extra shield or breath of life. With 600 CPs and the current power creep, this isn't much of an issue, but had this change been done when Orsinium was released, vMA would have been noticeably more difficult on a Templar.

Against players, Blazing Spear is hard to justify using. It's not easy to hit them in the first place and they just move out of the DoT. Templars who relied on the stun will once again have to put in multiple skills to make up for the loss of stun and AOE that this spell provided which, again, makes for more intense rotations and increases the difficulty a PvP templar will face.

Can't I just use Luminous? No. Because I PvE DPS. The thing ZoS does not seem to appreciate with morphs is sometimes one morph just has something that cannot be discarded. Blazing Spear is very good DPS skill; if I run end-game content or want to get a decent score in vMA, I have to take this morph. I am not going to respec my character whenever I do PVP. Asking me to do so is in no way "simplifying" the game.. Besides, Luminous is not a true CC. Disorient breaks on damage.

The whole routine of "Dont use of DoT and an enemy and yell in zone for your allies to not to put a DoT on the target" is not making the game easier.

ZoS, if your goal is too truly "simplify" things for a templar, revert the stun back to Blazing Spear. Here are other suggestions for a future patch that would make the Templar’s life simpler:
Puncturing Strikes: I hate that this locks the Templar into the direction they are facing. Getting it to actually hit a target four times requires a CC beforehand and this class has terrible CCs

Focused Charge: It’s so slow now. And I still get stuck in the animation. This ability was perfectly fine at Launch. Please just revert it back to what it once was.

Solar Barrage It self-snares and pales in comparison to other PBAoEs in the game.

Rune Focus I *have* to move in PvP ZoS! Do you not watch videos of Eye of the Storm or read what Negate does?

Light Weaver I do not even unlock this passive even though I have 40 skill points. That is how pointless it is.

We have 25K health and players do 55K DPS. The days of "stand your ground" in PvP are as dead as the 1.5 patch. All magicka human players need to move. Please make a new Alliance War skill that makes it possible for them to move away from ball-groups and their Encases, Negates, and Eyes of the Storm spam. I am tired of being an undead abomination just so I can move in PvP.

*******In short:******

I did what ZoS asked me to do. All of this feedback based on PTS playing against PvE and players. To sum up and prioritize what I think is most different from Live:

Radiant Aura - I think this is a compelling change. I'll give credit. Probably the most important templar change.
Blazing Spear - No stun makes Templar play unnecessarily more complicated.
Backlash - Will probably be too good after the bugfix.
Radiant Destruction - Was too good. Flat damage nerf is too high and does not address issues most players had with it.
Eclipse - I didn't use this before and won't use it again because it is the most inefficient skill in the game.
Radial Sweep - I didn't use this before because the range is too short.
Javelin - I don't think it had an issue hitting targets so not much to say here.

Other non-templar feedback
The minor Lifesteal is too low. I tried using Force Siphon against Stamina opponents. The difference between their HoTs and mine ... as a Templar was night and day.

A "normal" build of 27K health with Light Armor or Medium Armor stands zero chance of surviving a gank from a NB that knows what they are doing. It was not proc crits that they were abusing. This change is not going to help and only serve to make marginal sets useless, take strategy out of PvE, and unnecessarily complicating game mechanics. Revert and adds cooldown to proc damage. Occam's razor please.

Eye of the Storm is still too strong. Spamming Harness magicka or running away hoping the caster doesn't have a gap closer is the only counterplay. I fought a Nightblade using a Fire staff and even spamming honor of the dead was not good enough. Just use your original formula for this morph please.

The One-hand and Shield Skill Defensive Stance is bugged. It is supposed to reflect projectiles but does not reflect the Inferno version of Destruction Staff skill, Flame Touch.

Negate is OP An enemy DK uses a 250 ultimate that inconveniences my character with a heal debuff and puts a DoT on me. A sorcerer uses a 200 ultimate that completely shuts down my character, puts a DoT on me, and removes an enemy DK banner. And you nerfed Standard?

Light Armor in PvP works OK in duels. In the open world without a zerg for protection is a whole 'nother story.

That's it for now

Good post man. Too bad ZoS won't have the attention span to read it.

BigES · January 2017

Blazing Spear... the new Liquid Lightning.

#PvPSorcererGodModeActivate

Lore_lai · January 2017

BigES wrote: »

Blazing Spear... the new Liquid Lightning.

#PvPSorcererGodModeActivate

LOL.

KaiDynasty · January 2017

Lore_lai wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

As it stands, Templar is the only class with out an unblockable cc (petrify, fear, defensive rune) and they took our only good CC in blazing spear away(which by the way against any good stam build very rarely CCd them). Change luminous to an unblockable cc with a bigger radius as the added effect. I believe the problem they have with giving us an unblockable cc is that most don't break on dots, yet almost all of Templar abilities are dots(sweeps, vamp bane, radiant) so the implementation of it would be difficult. I propose they implement a bigger radius in luminous and a that is unblockable similar to fear and lasts the same amount of time as fear. It would no longer be a disorient, but would have to be a much larger radius to compensate for the fact that one of the morphs does not break on dots like petrify and rune cage.

Blazing Spear should disorient now, which is actually the same thing as petrify and agony

EXCEPT.
Petrify - targets can take damage while still CC'd before the Disorient breaks.
Agony - fair point BUT - The class who has Agony also has FEAR - an un-targetable (you just have to be in range), unblockable 3-man hard CC, that also puts snare on target even after effect is over, AND Minor Maim.

Meanwhile Templar has - Luminous Shards Disorient that breaks instantly and gives free CC immunity (now with even longer timer, rejoice!)

A disorient without a stored damage is useless.

Petrify and Spear are very similar as skills, because don't know if you play a DK, but when you put 2 dots on the target, at the first tick of both the cc broke, ofc the animation is better since it is faster and they should make the shard similar to petrify (it break after some damage), BUT i predict it will be useless anyway, because at the first puncturing sweep casted, you will break the cc, ofc it will be anyway better of what templars have now (cc that break with any type of damage at any value).
I don't understand why don't test the spear, Me as stamplar I use it, and it cc often targets if animation canceled (expect permablockers, but you should give a try to spear).
The only cc too op in this game, is fear which really has a long duration, go trough block and have 2 extra effects (snare + minor maim, but before get assaulted by nbs, i will say that mabye this op cc is made too compensate their survivability).

Lore_lai · January 2017

KaiDynasty wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

As it stands, Templar is the only class with out an unblockable cc (petrify, fear, defensive rune) and they took our only good CC in blazing spear away(which by the way against any good stam build very rarely CCd them). Change luminous to an unblockable cc with a bigger radius as the added effect. I believe the problem they have with giving us an unblockable cc is that most don't break on dots, yet almost all of Templar abilities are dots(sweeps, vamp bane, radiant) so the implementation of it would be difficult. I propose they implement a bigger radius in luminous and a that is unblockable similar to fear and lasts the same amount of time as fear. It would no longer be a disorient, but would have to be a much larger radius to compensate for the fact that one of the morphs does not break on dots like petrify and rune cage.

Blazing Spear should disorient now, which is actually the same thing as petrify and agony

EXCEPT.
Petrify - targets can take damage while still CC'd before the Disorient breaks.
Agony - fair point BUT - The class who has Agony also has FEAR - an un-targetable (you just have to be in range), unblockable 3-man hard CC, that also puts snare on target even after effect is over, AND Minor Maim.

Meanwhile Templar has - Luminous Shards Disorient that breaks instantly and gives free CC immunity (now with even longer timer, rejoice!)

A disorient without a stored damage is useless.

Petrify and Spear are very similar as skills, because don't know if you play a DK, but when you put 2 dots on the target, at the first tick of both the cc broke, ofc the animation is better since it is faster and they should make the shard similar to petrify (it break after some damage), BUT i predict it will be useless anyway, because at the first puncturing sweep casted, you will break the cc, ofc it will be anyway better of what templars have now (cc that break with any type of damage at any value).
I don't understand why don't test the spear, Me as stamplar I use it, and it cc often targets if animation canceled (expect permablockers, but you should give a try to spear).
The only cc too op in this game, is fear which really has a long duration, go trough block and have 2 extra effects (snare + minor maim, but before get assaulted by nbs, i will say that mabye this op cc is made too compensate their survivability).

No - I have not played DK in PvP but I have fought, and I know that against a *good* DK you cannot sit there and wait for the Petrify to give you free CC immunity, because a good DK will know how to use it and you cannot afford a second of "Oh I'm just not gonna break this and let DoTs break it."
Test Spear? I know very well how Spear behaves. You can anim-cancel it all you want - it will still have a travel time and if it's laggy it will be horrible. The travel time will be very bad and client-side lag will make the spear land very late and most likely completely desynched from your opponent's position.

I've used it successfully against good s!Nightblades right as they do their ambush on me, I've used it against pugs that ate the damage and died to it. I have used it offensively and defensively. I've used it a lot. I know what it's capable of and what is not.
I know how it is to use a travel time, ground-based CC against a *very* good and very mobile opponent.
LOL - I will trade Luminous for Petrify ANY day. Pls give it to me now. Hah!

leepalmer95 · January 2017

Lore_lai wrote: »

KaiDynasty wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

As it stands, Templar is the only class with out an unblockable cc (petrify, fear, defensive rune) and they took our only good CC in blazing spear away(which by the way against any good stam build very rarely CCd them). Change luminous to an unblockable cc with a bigger radius as the added effect. I believe the problem they have with giving us an unblockable cc is that most don't break on dots, yet almost all of Templar abilities are dots(sweeps, vamp bane, radiant) so the implementation of it would be difficult. I propose they implement a bigger radius in luminous and a that is unblockable similar to fear and lasts the same amount of time as fear. It would no longer be a disorient, but would have to be a much larger radius to compensate for the fact that one of the morphs does not break on dots like petrify and rune cage.

Blazing Spear should disorient now, which is actually the same thing as petrify and agony

EXCEPT.
Petrify - targets can take damage while still CC'd before the Disorient breaks.
Agony - fair point BUT - The class who has Agony also has FEAR - an un-targetable (you just have to be in range), unblockable 3-man hard CC, that also puts snare on target even after effect is over, AND Minor Maim.

Meanwhile Templar has - Luminous Shards Disorient that breaks instantly and gives free CC immunity (now with even longer timer, rejoice!)

A disorient without a stored damage is useless.

Petrify and Spear are very similar as skills, because don't know if you play a DK, but when you put 2 dots on the target, at the first tick of both the cc broke, ofc the animation is better since it is faster and they should make the shard similar to petrify (it break after some damage), BUT i predict it will be useless anyway, because at the first puncturing sweep casted, you will break the cc, ofc it will be anyway better of what templars have now (cc that break with any type of damage at any value).
I don't understand why don't test the spear, Me as stamplar I use it, and it cc often targets if animation canceled (expect permablockers, but you should give a try to spear).
The only cc too op in this game, is fear which really has a long duration, go trough block and have 2 extra effects (snare + minor maim, but before get assaulted by nbs, i will say that mabye this op cc is made too compensate their survivability).

No - I have not played DK in PvP but I have fought, and I know that against a *good* DK you cannot sit there and wait for the Petrify to give you free CC immunity, because a good DK will know how to use it and you cannot afford a second of "Oh I'm just not gonna break this and let DoTs break it."
Test Spear? I know very well how Spear behaves. You can anim-cancel it all you want - it will still have a travel time and if it's laggy it will be horrible. The travel time will be very bad and client-side lag will make the spear land very late and most likely completely desynched from your opponent's position.

I've used it successfully against good s!Nightblades right as they do their ambush on me, I've used it against pugs that ate the damage and died to it. I have used it offensively and defensively. I've used it a lot. I know what it's capable of and what is not.
I know how it is to use a travel time, ground-based CC against a *very* good and very mobile opponent.
LOL - I will trade Luminous for Petrify ANY day. Pls give it to me now. Hah!

Spear travel time is fine, it got boosted as well, Also travel time is a bit mute if you use the cc from melee range like people did with shards.

Also how can you comment on skills of a class you haven't played? You can't talk about skills you haven't used in pvp, that makes no sense.

Lore_lai · January 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

KaiDynasty wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

As it stands, Templar is the only class with out an unblockable cc (petrify, fear, defensive rune) and they took our only good CC in blazing spear away(which by the way against any good stam build very rarely CCd them). Change luminous to an unblockable cc with a bigger radius as the added effect. I believe the problem they have with giving us an unblockable cc is that most don't break on dots, yet almost all of Templar abilities are dots(sweeps, vamp bane, radiant) so the implementation of it would be difficult. I propose they implement a bigger radius in luminous and a that is unblockable similar to fear and lasts the same amount of time as fear. It would no longer be a disorient, but would have to be a much larger radius to compensate for the fact that one of the morphs does not break on dots like petrify and rune cage.

Blazing Spear should disorient now, which is actually the same thing as petrify and agony

EXCEPT.
Petrify - targets can take damage while still CC'd before the Disorient breaks.
Agony - fair point BUT - The class who has Agony also has FEAR - an un-targetable (you just have to be in range), unblockable 3-man hard CC, that also puts snare on target even after effect is over, AND Minor Maim.

Meanwhile Templar has - Luminous Shards Disorient that breaks instantly and gives free CC immunity (now with even longer timer, rejoice!)

A disorient without a stored damage is useless.

Petrify and Spear are very similar as skills, because don't know if you play a DK, but when you put 2 dots on the target, at the first tick of both the cc broke, ofc the animation is better since it is faster and they should make the shard similar to petrify (it break after some damage), BUT i predict it will be useless anyway, because at the first puncturing sweep casted, you will break the cc, ofc it will be anyway better of what templars have now (cc that break with any type of damage at any value).
I don't understand why don't test the spear, Me as stamplar I use it, and it cc often targets if animation canceled (expect permablockers, but you should give a try to spear).
The only cc too op in this game, is fear which really has a long duration, go trough block and have 2 extra effects (snare + minor maim, but before get assaulted by nbs, i will say that mabye this op cc is made too compensate their survivability).

No - I have not played DK in PvP but I have fought, and I know that against a *good* DK you cannot sit there and wait for the Petrify to give you free CC immunity, because a good DK will know how to use it and you cannot afford a second of "Oh I'm just not gonna break this and let DoTs break it."
Test Spear? I know very well how Spear behaves. You can anim-cancel it all you want - it will still have a travel time and if it's laggy it will be horrible. The travel time will be very bad and client-side lag will make the spear land very late and most likely completely desynched from your opponent's position.

I've used it successfully against good s!Nightblades right as they do their ambush on me, I've used it against pugs that ate the damage and died to it. I have used it offensively and defensively. I've used it a lot. I know what it's capable of and what is not.
I know how it is to use a travel time, ground-based CC against a *very* good and very mobile opponent.
LOL - I will trade Luminous for Petrify ANY day. Pls give it to me now. Hah!

Spear travel time is fine, it got boosted as well, Also travel time is a bit mute if you use the cc from melee range like people did with shards.

Also how can you comment on skills of a class you haven't played? You can't talk about skills you haven't used in pvp, that makes no sense.

What in the world are you talking about - the travel time of the projectile is the same even if you are melee.
If I block-cancel the spear on my position it will cancel my char animation of launching the spear but the projectile travel time will still be there.
And like I said - if you account for client-side lag, and actual server lag, spear is probably one of the worst (unreliable) CC's as far as pure-CCs go.
Sounds like you are the one who hasn't used it, or you would know how it is to launch the spear, block-cancel it and have it land 2-3 seconds later because lag. Yes, it is very much worse with travel time skills.
And you learn a class not only by playing it but by playing *against* it. And by playing against good players.
You are making zero sense - you can definitely talk about how a specific class skill impacts your play-style when fighting against it. Especially if you find yourself fighting a good opponent.

leepalmer95 · January 2017

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

KaiDynasty wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

As it stands, Templar is the only class with out an unblockable cc (petrify, fear, defensive rune) and they took our only good CC in blazing spear away(which by the way against any good stam build very rarely CCd them). Change luminous to an unblockable cc with a bigger radius as the added effect. I believe the problem they have with giving us an unblockable cc is that most don't break on dots, yet almost all of Templar abilities are dots(sweeps, vamp bane, radiant) so the implementation of it would be difficult. I propose they implement a bigger radius in luminous and a that is unblockable similar to fear and lasts the same amount of time as fear. It would no longer be a disorient, but would have to be a much larger radius to compensate for the fact that one of the morphs does not break on dots like petrify and rune cage.

Blazing Spear should disorient now, which is actually the same thing as petrify and agony

EXCEPT.
Petrify - targets can take damage while still CC'd before the Disorient breaks.
Agony - fair point BUT - The class who has Agony also has FEAR - an un-targetable (you just have to be in range), unblockable 3-man hard CC, that also puts snare on target even after effect is over, AND Minor Maim.

Meanwhile Templar has - Luminous Shards Disorient that breaks instantly and gives free CC immunity (now with even longer timer, rejoice!)

A disorient without a stored damage is useless.

Petrify and Spear are very similar as skills, because don't know if you play a DK, but when you put 2 dots on the target, at the first tick of both the cc broke, ofc the animation is better since it is faster and they should make the shard similar to petrify (it break after some damage), BUT i predict it will be useless anyway, because at the first puncturing sweep casted, you will break the cc, ofc it will be anyway better of what templars have now (cc that break with any type of damage at any value).
I don't understand why don't test the spear, Me as stamplar I use it, and it cc often targets if animation canceled (expect permablockers, but you should give a try to spear).
The only cc too op in this game, is fear which really has a long duration, go trough block and have 2 extra effects (snare + minor maim, but before get assaulted by nbs, i will say that mabye this op cc is made too compensate their survivability).

No - I have not played DK in PvP but I have fought, and I know that against a *good* DK you cannot sit there and wait for the Petrify to give you free CC immunity, because a good DK will know how to use it and you cannot afford a second of "Oh I'm just not gonna break this and let DoTs break it."
Test Spear? I know very well how Spear behaves. You can anim-cancel it all you want - it will still have a travel time and if it's laggy it will be horrible. The travel time will be very bad and client-side lag will make the spear land very late and most likely completely desynched from your opponent's position.

I've used it successfully against good s!Nightblades right as they do their ambush on me, I've used it against pugs that ate the damage and died to it. I have used it offensively and defensively. I've used it a lot. I know what it's capable of and what is not.
I know how it is to use a travel time, ground-based CC against a *very* good and very mobile opponent.
LOL - I will trade Luminous for Petrify ANY day. Pls give it to me now. Hah!

Spear travel time is fine, it got boosted as well, Also travel time is a bit mute if you use the cc from melee range like people did with shards.

Also how can you comment on skills of a class you haven't played? You can't talk about skills you haven't used in pvp, that makes no sense.

What in the world are you talking about - the travel time of the projectile is the same even if you are melee.
If I block-cancel the spear on my position it will cancel my char animation of launching the spear but the projectile travel time will still be there.
And like I said - if you account for client-side lag, and actual server lag, spear is probably one of the worst (unreliable) CC's as far as pure-CCs go.
Sounds like you are the one who hasn't used it, or you would know how it is to launch the spear, block-cancel it and have it land 2-3 seconds later because lag. Yes, it is very much worse with travel time skills.
And you learn a class not only by playing it but by playing *against* it. And by playing against good payers.
You are making zero sense - you can definitely talk about how a specific class skill impacts your play-style when fighting against it. Especially if you find yourself fighting a good opponent.

So a skill is bad because of lag? Ok.

If your skills are hitting 2-3s later than that isn't the skills fault.

Travel time = time it hates to hit the target.... which is very low if your next to them. Like i said in the pts notes it's travel time got reduced.

Lore_lai · January 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So a skill is bad because of lag? Ok.

If your skills are hitting 2-3s later than that isn't the skills fault.

Travel time = time it hates to hit the target.... which is very low if your next to them. Like i said in the pts notes it's travel time got reduced.

Its travel-time got reduced but the CC is no longer there and the other morph is broken as a CC.
Your point?

leepalmer95 · January 2017

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So a skill is bad because of lag? Ok.

If your skills are hitting 2-3s later than that isn't the skills fault.

Travel time = time it hates to hit the target.... which is very low if your next to them. Like i said in the pts notes it's travel time got reduced.

Its travel-time got reduced but the CC is no longer there and the other morph is broken as a CC.
Your point?

Spear and shards are completely different skills.

You should likely learn the names and differences first.

Lore_lai · January 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So a skill is bad because of lag? Ok.

If your skills are hitting 2-3s later than that isn't the skills fault.

Travel time = time it hates to hit the target.... which is very low if your next to them. Like i said in the pts notes it's travel time got reduced.

Its travel-time got reduced but the CC is no longer there and the other morph is broken as a CC.
Your point?

Spear and shards are completely different skills.

You should likely learn the names and differences first.

Sorry hon, nice try tho!
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Spear_Shards
But yeah, pls teach me how to Templar.

Lore_lai · January 2017

leepalmer95 · January 2017

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So a skill is bad because of lag? Ok.

If your skills are hitting 2-3s later than that isn't the skills fault.

Travel time = time it hates to hit the target.... which is very low if your next to them. Like i said in the pts notes it's travel time got reduced.

Its travel-time got reduced but the CC is no longer there and the other morph is broken as a CC.
Your point?

Spear and shards are completely different skills.

You should likely learn the names and differences first.

Sorry hon, nice try tho!
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Spear_Shards

Yes that is always referred to as shards, the spear you throw is referred to as spear.

Lore_lai · January 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So a skill is bad because of lag? Ok.

If your skills are hitting 2-3s later than that isn't the skills fault.

Travel time = time it hates to hit the target.... which is very low if your next to them. Like i said in the pts notes it's travel time got reduced.

Its travel-time got reduced but the CC is no longer there and the other morph is broken as a CC.
Your point?

Spear and shards are completely different skills.

You should likely learn the names and differences first.

Sorry hon, nice try tho!
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Spear_Shards

Yes that is always referred to as shards, the spear you throw is referred to as spear.

As I have said - nice try!

leepalmer95 · January 2017

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So a skill is bad because of lag? Ok.

If your skills are hitting 2-3s later than that isn't the skills fault.

Travel time = time it hates to hit the target.... which is very low if your next to them. Like i said in the pts notes it's travel time got reduced.

Its travel-time got reduced but the CC is no longer there and the other morph is broken as a CC.
Your point?

Spear and shards are completely different skills.

You should likely learn the names and differences first.

Sorry hon, nice try tho!
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Spear_Shards

Yes that is always referred to as shards, the spear you throw is referred to as spear.

As I have said - nice try!

Ok, lets play this game.

Shards travel time didn't get reduced, so if you wasn't referring to the actual spear skill (which did get reduced) why did you agree it's travel time got reduced?

Lore_lai · January 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So a skill is bad because of lag? Ok.

If your skills are hitting 2-3s later than that isn't the skills fault.

Travel time = time it hates to hit the target.... which is very low if your next to them. Like i said in the pts notes it's travel time got reduced.

Its travel-time got reduced but the CC is no longer there and the other morph is broken as a CC.
Your point?

Spear and shards are completely different skills.

You should likely learn the names and differences first.

Sorry hon, nice try tho!
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Spear_Shards

Yes that is always referred to as shards, the spear you throw is referred to as spear.

As I have said - nice try!

Ok, lets play this game.

Shards travel time didn't get reduced, so if you wasn't referring to the actual spear skill (which did get reduced) why did you agree it's travel time got reduced?

I am not interested in playing this game with you because frankly it quite bores me.
I doubt you would be good enough anyway.
You're just grasping at straws now and discussing semantics when I even proved you wrong.

React · January 2017

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So a skill is bad because of lag? Ok.

If your skills are hitting 2-3s later than that isn't the skills fault.

Travel time = time it hates to hit the target.... which is very low if your next to them. Like i said in the pts notes it's travel time got reduced.

Its travel-time got reduced but the CC is no longer there and the other morph is broken as a CC.
Your point?

Spear and shards are completely different skills.

You should likely learn the names and differences first.

Sorry hon, nice try tho!
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Spear_Shards

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Yes that is always referred to as shards, the spear you throw is referred to as spear.

Actually you're both wrong. Shards are shards and JAVELIN IS JAVELIN.

Lore_lai · January 2017

Liam12548 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So a skill is bad because of lag? Ok.

If your skills are hitting 2-3s later than that isn't the skills fault.

Travel time = time it hates to hit the target.... which is very low if your next to them. Like i said in the pts notes it's travel time got reduced.

Its travel-time got reduced but the CC is no longer there and the other morph is broken as a CC.
Your point?

Spear and shards are completely different skills.

You should likely learn the names and differences first.

Sorry hon, nice try tho!
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Spear_Shards

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Yes that is always referred to as shards, the spear you throw is referred to as spear.

Actually you're both wrong. Shards are shards and JAVELIN IS JAVELIN.

If I would have meant Javelin, I would have said Javelin - base skill and morph of that being named as such.
I was never referring to Javelin, lol.

You're missing the point of our game here - he tried to counter me by being a smart-ass and failed because he beat himself with his own argument. However you decide to refer to the skill - it is officially named as Spear Shards (and morphs - Luminous Shard and Blazing Spear)

Anti_Virus · January 2017

Leepalmer back at it again with another pointless debate.

KaiDynasty · January 2017

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

KaiDynasty wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

As it stands, Templar is the only class with out an unblockable cc (petrify, fear, defensive rune) and they took our only good CC in blazing spear away(which by the way against any good stam build very rarely CCd them). Change luminous to an unblockable cc with a bigger radius as the added effect. I believe the problem they have with giving us an unblockable cc is that most don't break on dots, yet almost all of Templar abilities are dots(sweeps, vamp bane, radiant) so the implementation of it would be difficult. I propose they implement a bigger radius in luminous and a that is unblockable similar to fear and lasts the same amount of time as fear. It would no longer be a disorient, but would have to be a much larger radius to compensate for the fact that one of the morphs does not break on dots like petrify and rune cage.

Blazing Spear should disorient now, which is actually the same thing as petrify and agony

EXCEPT.
Petrify - targets can take damage while still CC'd before the Disorient breaks.
Agony - fair point BUT - The class who has Agony also has FEAR - an un-targetable (you just have to be in range), unblockable 3-man hard CC, that also puts snare on target even after effect is over, AND Minor Maim.

Meanwhile Templar has - Luminous Shards Disorient that breaks instantly and gives free CC immunity (now with even longer timer, rejoice!)

A disorient without a stored damage is useless.

Petrify and Spear are very similar as skills, because don't know if you play a DK, but when you put 2 dots on the target, at the first tick of both the cc broke, ofc the animation is better since it is faster and they should make the shard similar to petrify (it break after some damage), BUT i predict it will be useless anyway, because at the first puncturing sweep casted, you will break the cc, ofc it will be anyway better of what templars have now (cc that break with any type of damage at any value).
I don't understand why don't test the spear, Me as stamplar I use it, and it cc often targets if animation canceled (expect permablockers, but you should give a try to spear).
The only cc too op in this game, is fear which really has a long duration, go trough block and have 2 extra effects (snare + minor maim, but before get assaulted by nbs, i will say that mabye this op cc is made too compensate their survivability).

No - I have not played DK in PvP but I have fought, and I know that against a *good* DK you cannot sit there and wait for the Petrify to give you free CC immunity, because a good DK will know how to use it and you cannot afford a second of "Oh I'm just not gonna break this and let DoTs break it."
Test Spear? I know very well how Spear behaves. You can anim-cancel it all you want - it will still have a travel time and if it's laggy it will be horrible. The travel time will be very bad and client-side lag will make the spear land very late and most likely completely desynched from your opponent's position.

I've used it successfully against good s!Nightblades right as they do their ambush on me, I've used it against pugs that ate the damage and died to it. I have used it offensively and defensively. I've used it a lot. I know what it's capable of and what is not.
I know how it is to use a travel time, ground-based CC against a *very* good and very mobile opponent.
LOL - I will trade Luminous for Petrify ANY day. Pls give it to me now. Hah!

Spear travel time is fine, it got boosted as well, Also travel time is a bit mute if you use the cc from melee range like people did with shards.

Also how can you comment on skills of a class you haven't played? You can't talk about skills you haven't used in pvp, that makes no sense.

What in the world are you talking about - the travel time of the projectile is the same even if you are melee.
If I block-cancel the spear on my position it will cancel my char animation of launching the spear but the projectile travel time will still be there.
And like I said - if you account for client-side lag, and actual server lag, spear is probably one of the worst (unreliable) CC's as far as pure-CCs go.
Sounds like you are the one who hasn't used it, or you would know how it is to launch the spear, block-cancel it and have it land 2-3 seconds later because lag. Yes, it is very much worse with travel time skills.
And you learn a class not only by playing it but by playing *against* it. And by playing against good players.
You are making zero sense - you can definitely talk about how a specific class skill impacts your play-style when fighting against it. Especially if you find yourself fighting a good opponent.

As I said, I didn't say that spear (the spear you trown on your target and push him down) is better than the shard that fall from the sky, but, it is reliable, first of all, why you want to cc an enemy from distance? I mean, you are templar, you use jabs as skill to hurt them, unless you play as cleric. I used javelin as CC, and as stamplar I didn't see that much problem, yeah in lag i admit it isn't good to time it, but i don't understand what you mean that lag influence your skill to CC, when the spear is lanched, the time travel is the same.. if to do 28m it take 1 sec, it will take 1 sec with or without lag, the only thing that lag affect is when you actually launch the spear, but on an average of 100 players, just 10 are capable of dodge a spear within 10 meters from me, again if animation cancelled (this in my experience as a stamplar)...
Spear is bad when you try to stun an enemy from a very long distance, but in that every skill is bad since every skill have a time travel

Cinbri · January 2017

This is feedback thread, not arena to debate who's knowledges longer. Just wait several hours to debate about pts4 changes.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Shards travel time didn't get reduced, so if you wasn't referring to the actual spear skill (which did get reduced) why did you agree it's travel time got reduced?

It was reduced. From pathcnotes 2.7.0: "Spear Shards: Decreased the time it takes for the spear from this ability and its morphs to land after being cast at the target location to 750 milliseconds from 1100 milliseconds."
Literally happened what i was asking forsince Thieves Guild dlc and showed on this video:
0sec--3 sec spear's visual effect land on targeted area, I call it "pre-animation". 3sec--~ actual spear exploding and landing shards on area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEgXtanFhT4

Now it finally fixed and there is no longer palying pre-animation = travel time from cast to landing decreased.

leepalmer95 · January 2017

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Leepalmer back at it again with another pointless debate.

Shouldn't you be trying to get pve buffed more?

2h still hasn't got that needed buff you want shouldn't you be posting about that?

Lore_lai · January 2017

I am literally /facepalming right now

Ron_Burgundy_79 · January 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So a skill is bad because of lag? Ok.

If your skills are hitting 2-3s later than that isn't the skills fault.

Travel time = time it hates to hit the target.... which is very low if your next to them. Like i said in the pts notes it's travel time got reduced.

Its travel-time got reduced but the CC is no longer there and the other morph is broken as a CC.
Your point?

Spear and shards are completely different skills.

You should likely learn the names and differences first.

Sorry hon, nice try tho!
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Spear_Shards

Yes that is always referred to as shards, the spear you throw is referred to as spear.

Blazing Spear
Luminous Shards
Aurora Javelin
Binding Javelin