PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Balance Improvements

templesus

As it stands, Templar is the only class with out an unblockable cc (petrify, fear, defensive rune) and they took our only good CC in blazing spear away(which by the way against any good stam build very rarely CCd them). Change luminous to an unblockable cc with a bigger radius as the added effect. I believe the problem they have with giving us an unblockable cc is that most don't break on dots, yet almost all of Templar abilities are dots(sweeps, vamp bane, radiant) so the implementation of it would be difficult. I propose they implement a bigger radius in luminous and a that is unblockable similar to fear and lasts the same amount of time as fear. It would no longer be a disorient, but would have to be a much larger radius to compensate for the fact that one of the morphs does not break on dots like petrify and rune cage.

templesus

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom also a proposed sustain buff for stamplars, make repentance also make you regenerate 200 stam per second for 15 seconds. That would literally be all the sustain buff we need for stamplars to compete in cyrodiil. Literally that's it.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

I think I have a solution to the Stamplar sustain issue.

When Burning Light procs it should also restore restore a small portion of stamina. Like 300 or so

Baconlad

At least stamplars don't have to use crap drink/ food for magick...cause...you know it's almost pointless for stamplars to use magic. Magplars on the other hand get shafted..alas..no one cares

timidobserver

EvoAZN wrote: »

Give templar a CC that is unblockable (useful for magicka or stamina builds) or leave the CC on blazing spear. Possibly rework Eclipse and it's morphs for this since it is one of the least used skills for templars.

Give stamplars better resource management for PvE & PvP that doesn't involve sets/heavy attacking and give them some group utilities for end game PvE

Keep Live's current Radiant Destruction damage but make it start scaling after 30% instead of 50% and reduce the max range to 20m w/ Reach rank 2 passive otherwise the max range is 15m anywhere else other than a keep. (15m is a nice range to protect ones home.)

@ZOS_RichLambert

It is kind of sad that they buffed permablocking and then completely removed our ability to deal with it all in the same patch.

Spearblade

Baconlad wrote: »

At least stamplars don't have to use crap drink/ food for magick...cause...you know it's almost pointless for stamplars to use magic. Magplars on the other hand get shafted..alas..no one cares

Extended Ritual (purge) is a must for any templar, and costs magicka. Rune Focus costs magicka. I'm not really sure what you're getting at. You don't like using tri food? Or....what?

leepalmer95

timidobserver wrote: »

EvoAZN wrote: »

Give templar a CC that is unblockable (useful for magicka or stamina builds) or leave the CC on blazing spear. Possibly rework Eclipse and it's morphs for this since it is one of the least used skills for templars.

Give stamplars better resource management for PvE & PvP that doesn't involve sets/heavy attacking and give them some group utilities for end game PvE

Keep Live's current Radiant Destruction damage but make it start scaling after 30% instead of 50% and reduce the max range to 20m w/ Reach rank 2 passive otherwise the max range is 15m anywhere else other than a keep. (15m is a nice range to protect ones home.)

@ZOS_RichLambert

It is kind of sad that they buffed permablocking and then completely removed our ability to deal with it all in the same patch.

Luminous shards goes through block...

timidobserver

leepalmer95 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

EvoAZN wrote: »

Give templar a CC that is unblockable (useful for magicka or stamina builds) or leave the CC on blazing spear. Possibly rework Eclipse and it's morphs for this since it is one of the least used skills for templars.

Give stamplars better resource management for PvE & PvP that doesn't involve sets/heavy attacking and give them some group utilities for end game PvE

Keep Live's current Radiant Destruction damage but make it start scaling after 30% instead of 50% and reduce the max range to 20m w/ Reach rank 2 passive otherwise the max range is 15m anywhere else other than a keep. (15m is a nice range to protect ones home.)

@ZOS_RichLambert

It is kind of sad that they buffed permablocking and then completely removed our ability to deal with it all in the same patch.

Luminous shards goes through block...

This is true but the CC is much less useful.

Ron_Burgundy_79

leepalmer95 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

EvoAZN wrote: »

Give templar a CC that is unblockable (useful for magicka or stamina builds) or leave the CC on blazing spear. Possibly rework Eclipse and it's morphs for this since it is one of the least used skills for templars.

Give stamplars better resource management for PvE & PvP that doesn't involve sets/heavy attacking and give them some group utilities for end game PvE

Keep Live's current Radiant Destruction damage but make it start scaling after 30% instead of 50% and reduce the max range to 20m w/ Reach rank 2 passive otherwise the max range is 15m anywhere else other than a keep. (15m is a nice range to protect ones home.)

@ZOS_RichLambert

It is kind of sad that they buffed permablocking and then completely removed our ability to deal with it all in the same patch.

Luminous shards goes through block...

It stuns through block which is much different from a hard cc. The stun is broken as soon as the target takes damage which happens instantly if a dot has already been applied to that target.

Cinbri

timidobserver wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

EvoAZN wrote: »

Give templar a CC that is unblockable (useful for magicka or stamina builds) or leave the CC on blazing spear. Possibly rework Eclipse and it's morphs for this since it is one of the least used skills for templars.

Give stamplars better resource management for PvE & PvP that doesn't involve sets/heavy attacking and give them some group utilities for end game PvE

Keep Live's current Radiant Destruction damage but make it start scaling after 30% instead of 50% and reduce the max range to 20m w/ Reach rank 2 passive otherwise the max range is 15m anywhere else other than a keep. (15m is a nice range to protect ones home.)

@ZOS_RichLambert

It is kind of sad that they buffed permablocking and then completely removed our ability to deal with it all in the same patch.

Luminous shards goes through block...

This is true but the CC is much less useful.

I would say it completely useless.
PTS4 will get minor tweaks and fixes, like Honor fix and maybe Backlash fix. Hopefully tweaks also will be nice. Till then nothing else to test beside setups.

josh.lackey_ESO

If the stun is being removed from Blazing Spear, could we at least get the minimum range for Toppling Charge removed so that we have a reliable CC? Between Reflective Scale and Defensive Posture, I find the javelin stuns me as often as my target.

I also agree with the excellent post by @Joy_Division.

With Eclipse in particular, I think it would almost be more useful if it affected me instead. For example, Unstable Core would explode after 5s damaging targets around me. Or Total Dark would absorb an attacker's projectiles and heal me instead.

I still think Sun Shield needs some major attention. It is practically useless except for specific max health builds. If a morph of Sun Shield would scale off max magicka/spell damage, that would be incredible. I always try to keep an Aedric Spear ability on both bars for the passives, but with the Blazing Spear nerf, it becomes less attractive to do so. It would be nice if I could put Sun Shield on my bar and not be wasting a slot.

tju1208

In my opinion you shouldnt nerph radiant destruction in damage output in general, you should decrease how it scales of the taget's health like other finishers in this game around 30-25% hp of the target's health and decrease the multiplier from 330% to 300%. Stamina templars are lacking in DPS, sustain and group utility. Templars should have also more stamina morphs of abilities. You could change Vampire's Bane to a stamina DoT which scales on physical damage. A good passive change for templars could be the proc of burning light. It should proc on every templar class skill as long you have an aedric spear ability slotted and you should increase the cooldown of the proc.

Lore_lai

Cinbri wrote: »

I would say it completely useless.
PTS4 will get minor tweaks and fixes, like Honor fix and maybe Backlash fix. Hopefully tweaks also will be nice. Till then nothing else to test beside setups.

Hah! HtD fix? They can't even fix BoL firing 1-2sec later if there is a vampire in mist-form around you(even if non-grouped), because the server has to calculate "Target is immune" msg before firing BoL on target. And this is even if the Mist Form vampire would not even be eligible target for BoL heal - i.e. they are at full health while you are at 20%.
And we all know what 1-2 sec later on a heal can mean in this bursty "meta". Try that when you have 300+ ping minimum non-stop, even more and with constant health-desyncs where you explode from Implosion proc at 80% health.

But yeah...here's hoping.

Sugaroverdose

templesus wrote: »

As it stands, Templar is the only class with out an unblockable cc (petrify, fear, defensive rune) and they took our only good CC in blazing spear away(which by the way against any good stam build very rarely CCd them). Change luminous to an unblockable cc with a bigger radius as the added effect. I believe the problem they have with giving us an unblockable cc is that most don't break on dots, yet almost all of Templar abilities are dots(sweeps, vamp bane, radiant) so the implementation of it would be difficult. I propose they implement a bigger radius in luminous and a that is unblockable similar to fear and lasts the same amount of time as fear. It would no longer be a disorient, but would have to be a much larger radius to compensate for the fact that one of the morphs does not break on dots like petrify and rune cage.

Blazing Spear should disorient now, which is actually the same thing as petrify and agony

danno8

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

If the stun is being removed from Blazing Spear, could we at least get the minimum range for Toppling Charge removed so that we have a reliable CC? Between Reflective Scale and Defensive Posture, I find the javelin stuns me as often as my target.

I also agree with the excellent post by @Joy_Division.

With Eclipse in particular, I think it would almost be more useful if it affected me instead. For example, Unstable Core would explode after 5s damaging targets around me. Or Total Dark would absorb an attacker's projectiles and heal me instead.

I still think Sun Shield needs some major attention. It is practically useless except for specific max health builds. If a morph of Sun Shield would scale off max magicka/spell damage, that would be incredible. I always try to keep an Aedric Spear ability on both bars for the passives, but with the Blazing Spear nerf, it becomes less attractive to do so. It would be nice if I could put Sun Shield on my bar and not be wasting a slot.

I am pretty confident that if I could cast Eclipse on myself, it would be more useful than casting it on another player. At least then I could CC, then Break-Free when it is convenient for me...

(tongue in cheek)

Lore_lai

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

As it stands, Templar is the only class with out an unblockable cc (petrify, fear, defensive rune) and they took our only good CC in blazing spear away(which by the way against any good stam build very rarely CCd them). Change luminous to an unblockable cc with a bigger radius as the added effect. I believe the problem they have with giving us an unblockable cc is that most don't break on dots, yet almost all of Templar abilities are dots(sweeps, vamp bane, radiant) so the implementation of it would be difficult. I propose they implement a bigger radius in luminous and a that is unblockable similar to fear and lasts the same amount of time as fear. It would no longer be a disorient, but would have to be a much larger radius to compensate for the fact that one of the morphs does not break on dots like petrify and rune cage.

Blazing Spear should disorient now, which is actually the same thing as petrify and agony

EXCEPT.
Petrify - targets can take damage while still CC'd before the Disorient breaks.
Agony - fair point BUT - The class who has Agony also has FEAR - an un-targetable (you just have to be in range), unblockable 3-man hard CC, that also puts snare on target even after effect is over, AND Minor Maim.

Meanwhile Templar has - Luminous Shards Disorient that breaks instantly and gives free CC immunity (now with even longer timer, rejoice!)

A disorient without a stored damage is useless.

Elsterchen

BigES wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

No clue why they felt the need to increase Javelin speed.. think most people would agree that it is already fine as-is. Would much have preferred a working gapcloser, ie. one that doesn't get you killed due to skills becoming stuck or just entirely failing.

I never felt like the speed of the skill was an issue. It was already so fast, you could catch some people pre-Meteor in a duel before they could even block, which was a common combo.

It just seems like a consolation prize to the Blazing Spear nerf, when there is nothing wrong with that skill.

Javelin speed will just incentivize people to sit back and throw it annoyingly like they already do. Templar is an up close and personal class. They are slow. Javelin speed should not be an issue when you're on top of an opponent. Its the same reason Magicka Socs should be on top of the opponent when they go to cast Crystal Frag. Speed of the skill doesn't matter if you're not hiding in the background.

Which is why Blazing Spear works. Its a good "in your face" stun.

New Javelin will just become another annoyance ability for the already aggravating unkillable heavy armor templar healbots.

Javeline isn't a skill that i use when "on top" of an opponent and its range ability doesn't suggest its thought to be used this way imho. When used as a ranged skill it is lacking speed. I was ambushed more then once while trying to pull jacelline off trying to keep opponents away. The changes might solve this problem.

Blazing Spear solves spambush players. Well, not anymore.

You aren't going to Javelin someone to death at range. So when you CC, you need to be ready to combo. For both the stamplar and magplar, this means being on top of your opponent.

Hmm, well, maybe its just me, BUT I do use javeline to keep enemies away ... ... or (since i use 1rst morph) to hopp away as well (the only skill i found somewhat usefull as an escape mechanism). If i want to get NEAR some enemy i use toppling charge.

Ron_Burgundy_79

Elsterchen wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

No clue why they felt the need to increase Javelin speed.. think most people would agree that it is already fine as-is. Would much have preferred a working gapcloser, ie. one that doesn't get you killed due to skills becoming stuck or just entirely failing.

I never felt like the speed of the skill was an issue. It was already so fast, you could catch some people pre-Meteor in a duel before they could even block, which was a common combo.

It just seems like a consolation prize to the Blazing Spear nerf, when there is nothing wrong with that skill.

Javelin speed will just incentivize people to sit back and throw it annoyingly like they already do. Templar is an up close and personal class. They are slow. Javelin speed should not be an issue when you're on top of an opponent. Its the same reason Magicka Socs should be on top of the opponent when they go to cast Crystal Frag. Speed of the skill doesn't matter if you're not hiding in the background.

Which is why Blazing Spear works. Its a good "in your face" stun.

New Javelin will just become another annoyance ability for the already aggravating unkillable heavy armor templar healbots.

Javeline isn't a skill that i use when "on top" of an opponent and its range ability doesn't suggest its thought to be used this way imho. When used as a ranged skill it is lacking speed. I was ambushed more then once while trying to pull jacelline off trying to keep opponents away. The changes might solve this problem.

Blazing Spear solves spambush players. Well, not anymore.

You aren't going to Javelin someone to death at range. So when you CC, you need to be ready to combo. For both the stamplar and magplar, this means being on top of your opponent.

Hmm, well, maybe its just me, BUT I do use javeline to keep enemies away ... ... or (since i use 1rst morph) to hopp away as well (the only skill i found somewhat usefull as an escape mechanism). If i want to get NEAR some enemy i use toppling charge, which works about half the time because toppling is still broken as hell.

Fixed.

Elsterchen

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

No clue why they felt the need to increase Javelin speed.. think most people would agree that it is already fine as-is. Would much have preferred a working gapcloser, ie. one that doesn't get you killed due to skills becoming stuck or just entirely failing.

I never felt like the speed of the skill was an issue. It was already so fast, you could catch some people pre-Meteor in a duel before they could even block, which was a common combo.

It just seems like a consolation prize to the Blazing Spear nerf, when there is nothing wrong with that skill.

Javelin speed will just incentivize people to sit back and throw it annoyingly like they already do. Templar is an up close and personal class. They are slow. Javelin speed should not be an issue when you're on top of an opponent. Its the same reason Magicka Socs should be on top of the opponent when they go to cast Crystal Frag. Speed of the skill doesn't matter if you're not hiding in the background.

Which is why Blazing Spear works. Its a good "in your face" stun.

New Javelin will just become another annoyance ability for the already aggravating unkillable heavy armor templar healbots.

Javeline isn't a skill that i use when "on top" of an opponent and its range ability doesn't suggest its thought to be used this way imho. When used as a ranged skill it is lacking speed. I was ambushed more then once while trying to pull jacelline off trying to keep opponents away. The changes might solve this problem.

Blazing Spear solves spambush players. Well, not anymore.

You aren't going to Javelin someone to death at range. So when you CC, you need to be ready to combo. For both the stamplar and magplar, this means being on top of your opponent.

Hmm, well, maybe its just me, BUT I do use javeline to keep enemies away ... ... or (since i use 1rst morph) to hopp away as well (the only skill i found somewhat usefull as an escape mechanism). If i want to get NEAR some enemy i use toppling charge, which used to works about half the time because toppling has been is still broken as hell.

Fixed.

agreed

PathwayM

In the past, the Light Weaver passive for templars only really provided a benefit to those who used the Rite of Passage skill.

This was primarily for two reasons:

• Repentance was the only viable morph of Restoring Aura and didn't benefit from the passive.
• Healing Ritual was a skill that is largely unused because of the channel that ultimately cripples it as a reliable heal.

Because Repentance still doesn't benefits from the Light Weaver passive, and with the changes to Restoring/Radiant Aura providing minor magickasteal; increasing the duration of a buff that is easily sustainable for only one morph, neither morph really receives any noticeable benefit from the Light Weaver passive.

Also, since this skill really is just adding additional effects to other skills, wouldn't it make sense to roll the bonuses from this passive into those other skills and replace it with a new passive entirely that could both be more generic in its design and alleviate some of the complaints of the templar player base?

Here are some ideas I had in mind for passives that could replace Light Weaver:

• Healing an ally under 60% health with a restoring light skill grants them minor brutality for 3 seconds.
• Gain Major Expedition for 5 seconds after healing an ally under 60% health.
• Healing an ally grants them minor resolve and minor ward for 8 seconds.

Thoughts?

Elsterchen

Actually I am all in for a "stamina steal" .

.

technohic

Simple tweak yet would be very appreciated would be self target runes rather than ground based.

Spearblade

Cosmetic suggestion: While channeling Biting Jabs, your arms glow for a second. Can that effect remain until the Major Savagery wears off?

S'yn

At this point in testing, I have to assume that ZOS is not planning any further changes. Players blew up the forums that they were tired of seeing high numbers on the death recaps from Templars beaming them and demanded a nerf- they got it.

Templars do good damage, and great healing (because let's face it, healing is what the class was built for). The problems for Templars have been resource managemnt, mobility, and CC. We basically suck at these and had a sweet execute to help make up for it.... which is now GONE AND our CC is even worse!

They asked for feedback about balance, but I don't see it. If you take one thing, you give something else, that's balance. Templars were never so brokenly OP they needed a massive nerf or anything. Being an "epic" healer is NOT glorious. A healers job is take the blame for Tanks and DPS being stupid by ignoring mechanics and then complaining that the healer somehow failed by running out of magicka keeping them alive while they swim through lava and try to facetank a boss. Yes, everyone loves to be the healer...

The point of elder scrolls whole class system is that anyone can be anything. Sure,some classes are more suited to certain roles than others, but the disparity should not be night and day. If we are all meant to be pigeon-holed into a role, just make it the only thing a class can do and be done with it. Do not torture players with the illusion of choice- give it to them honestly or don't. Period.

All CC should be breakable and everyone should have one- you want balance, THAT'S balance. I'd be fine with an AOE CC for every class, as long as we all had one- no one could complain (but you know they would). Personally, I want a divine dance bomb on blazing spear that makes everyone within 8 meters of the impact area have their feet set on fire and dance for 5 seconds with the DoT cooks them! Give DK's a stone hand that comes up out the ground and punches everyone in range in the nuggets- THAT would a skill that gets perma slotted.

Templars had a crappy CC and you took it. We had a great execute, and you took that too, but what did you GIVE us in exchange? That's what I thought...

Joy_Division

S'yn wrote: »

At this point in testing, I have to assume that ZOS is not planning any further changes. Players blew up the forums that they were tired of seeing high numbers on the death recaps from Templars beaming them and demanded a nerf- they got it.

Templars do good damage, and great healing (because let's face it, healing is what the class was built for). The problems for Templars have been resource managemnt, mobility, and CC. We basically suck at these and had a sweet execute to help make up for it.... which is now GONE AND our CC is even worse!

They asked for feedback about balance, but I don't see it. If you take one thing, you give something else, that's balance. Templars were never so brokenly OP they needed a massive nerf or anything. Being an "epic" healer is NOT glorious. A healers job is take the blame for Tanks and DPS being stupid by ignoring mechanics and then complaining that the healer somehow failed by running out of magicka keeping them alive while they swim through lava and try to facetank a boss. Yes, everyone loves to be the healer...

The point of elder scrolls whole class system is that anyone can be anything. Sure,some classes are more suited to certain roles than others, but the disparity should not be night and day. If we are all meant to be pigeon-holed into a role, just make it the only thing a class can do and be done with it. Do not torture players with the illusion of choice- give it to them honestly or don't. Period.

All CC should be breakable and everyone should have one- you want balance, THAT'S balance. I'd be fine with an AOE CC for every class, as long as we all had one- no one could complain (but you know they would). Personally, I want a divine dance bomb on blazing spear that makes everyone within 8 meters of the impact area have their feet set on fire and dance for 5 seconds with the DoT cooks them! Give DK's a stone hand that comes up out the ground and punches everyone in range in the nuggets- THAT would a skill that gets perma slotted.

Templars had a crappy CC and you took it. We had a great execute, and you took that too, but what did you GIVE us in exchange? That's what I thought...

The sad part is they already told us. Rich Lambert said the Blazing Spear change was intended to make templar rotations simpler. In ZoS's mind, this is making the class better and more appealing to play.

cynic

Joy_Division wrote: »

The sad part is they already told us. Rich Lambert said the Blazing Spear change was intended to make templar rotations simpler. In ZoS's mind, this is making the class better and more appealing to play.

To be honest, while I can certainly sympathize with the idea of straightening out rotations, I can not follow this reasoning regarding Blazing Spear at all, because this change has no positive or simplifying effect on Templar rotation at all. In fact, if something, the rotation is getting more complex, because it requires incorporating an additional skill for CC into our rotations.

Also considering that literally no one complained about this skill, I feel it makes it extremely hard to understand this change in the first place.

Now I am speaking from the perspective of a new player. Been playing ESO for about a month now, my ESO plus just renewed this week. In fact I just unlocked this skill not too long ago and man, it is great fun in PVE especially because of the stun and the gameplay / movement opportunities it brings along in solo play.

I am not finding the change to this skill to be simplifying anything. New players not understanding the stun component do not lose anything at all from using it just for AOE damage. In fact I'd argue they gain from the stun because a mob stays in it longer, rather than running out of it and potentially wasting half its duration.

The stun component of Blazing Spear does not make the skill harder to use at all, because it has literally no impact on how the skill is applied, how it travels and the fact that it is a ground effect. All it does is remove tactical depth and interesting gameplay options in combat.

TL;DR: As a new player I do not see any benefit to this change. In fact all it does is make me reconsider even slotting this over something potentially more interesting to use. Please reconsider this change and ideally revert it. I am certain it won't hurt anyone at all.

Joy_Division

^^^ We're are all with you, but ZoS only listens to sorcerer feedback.

NoFlash

technohic wrote: »

Simple tweak yet would be very appreciated would be self target runes rather than ground based.

Only 1 problem. They expect us to Protect our House. aka we have to sit there and take the heat.

technohic

EvoAZN wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Simple tweak yet would be very appreciated would be self target runes rather than ground based.

Only 1 problem. They expect us to Protect our House. aka we have to sit there and take the heat.

Can we upgrade from a cave to a trailer?

Seriously. Not like we will be any more mobile because it already seems like we move in slow mo compared to other classes except maybe DK but they can talon people to help them keep up. It would just "simplify the rotation" so we don't have to keep casting the rune as often. I don't know of anyone that stands in it very often.

NBrookus

technohic wrote: »

Seriously. Not like we will be any more mobile because it already seems like we move in slow mo compared to other classes except maybe DK but they can talon people to help them keep up.

Given the tiny radius of talons, you aren't catching anyone with them if they are moving away. DK slow-someone-down-at-range skill is pretty much the same: stonefist = javelin.