ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »
- Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
- Raising the floor on the bottom damage
- Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels
Hello,
Edit: sry for the title. Seems like these days only clickbait *** works. Fair warning: you will find mostly facts in here so if you don't like them feel free to leave.
There is a summary in the end.
Since the PTS templates are missing quite a few sets for testing (moondacer, BSW, infallible aether, ...) and I'm am just doing masters programm in theoretical physics i thought it might be a good idea to create a comprehensive model in order to simulate different gear setups in a raid environment.
So i went ahead and created the following spreadsheet.
This might be the Ultimate theorycrafting spreadsheet so far!
Spreadsheet-link
Unfortunately it is limited to magicka builds since theorycrafting for stamina builds is way more complicated thanks to the vMA dagger/axe enchant.
Some explanations for those who are interested to work with it:
The most important values are the "Base ability factor" and the "base light attack factor" in the character stats section. These have to be adjusted in order to match actual results, especially the light attack factor since no one is weaving perfectely.
Other important input values are the uptimes for set bonis like burning spellweave, moondancer, kena, etc. All fields that need experimental input are highlighted yellow.
Features:
- One spreadsheet for every class with preset passives and sets
- Comparison of two different setups at different DPS levels
- Automatic calculation of character stats and dps based on the filled in sets
- Adjustable uptimes for set procs, time spend on bar 1 and 2, etc.
- Includes all new passives for staffs and adjustable values for the amount of AOE and single target dmg done
- Switches for every passive/buff relevant for magicka builds
- Correct calculation of set bonis like moondancer and BSW (if procced on backbar it is still active on frontbar)
- Experimental data for the CP stat multiplier, ability scaling and light attack scaling
- and some more
Since the original purpose of this spreadsheet is to get some numbers to judge the recent balance changes i would like to do that here.
Results:
I wont copy all the tables here, but the exact numbers can be found in the "Results" tab.
So fist lets remember the goals of the update 13 balancing and discuss the made changes.ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »
- Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
- Raising the floor on the bottom damage
- Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels
Proc set crit change:
So this is in the lower the ceiling category, but acually it works the following way:
For top level DPS (~50k DPS) the loss is arround 2% dmg, for lower tiers (~30k DPS) the DPS loss increases over 3% dmg. So while this change reduces the dmg done by top dps by approx 1-2k it hurts the lower groups way more so it is directely countering the raising the floor on the bottom dmg intention.
Kena vs proc sets:
Many people (including me) claimed that the Molag Kena monster set will be best in slot (BIS) again with the change that proc sets cant crit anymore so lets check the numbers:
First we have to mention that kena will be more effective when dealing more dmg and proc sets like grothdarr and ilambris will always deal the same damage. For almost all classes the break even point is somewhere arround 37k dps assuming 60% Kena uptime. With higher uptimes Grothdarr/Ilambris will fall back further.
So what does that mean?
A good group with magicka support (minor magicka steal, undaunted orbs, etc) can easily sustain kena. At 50k DPS kena can make 1.4% more dps than a setup with Grothdarr on a templar. So the 1.9% the group lost due to the crit change can almost be negated by a switch to Kena instead of Grothdarr (at least in single target fights).
Kena can negate the whole intention behind the proc set nerf in terms of the "lower the ceiling" intention.
Warhorn Change
The change to major force being additive instead of multiplicative hits some classes more than others. The least affected is the Sorcerer class loosing arround 0.85% dmg when playing without rearming trap or guard. A templar with trap and the 10% crit from the passives looses around 1.8% dmg. Every build using Twice Born Star will loose an additional 0.70%.
This falls in the lower the ceiling category and does its job, while is still don't agree because it also hurts the bottom dmg in the same way.
What bothers me the most about this change is, that TBS will fall behind all other competitive sets (even Julianos is now significantely better, instead of being on par).
No warhorn vs warhorn every 18 secs
Good groups use an agressive warhorn approx every 18 secs to get a high major force uptime. Compared to groups with no warhorn they will still deal arround 6.2% more dmg than groups with no horn (arround 8% with major force multiplicative). So here we still have a decent dmg increase for groups with horn compared to groups without.
Warhorn every 30s vs warhorn every 18 secs
Groups with 50% major force uptime (horn every 18s) get nerfed by approx 1.7% compared to groups with no warhorn, and by 0.7% compared to groups with a horn every 30s.
Total nerf:
If we compare the BIS sets according to my calculations before and after 2.7 we find that a Templar looses around 1% dmg compared to the 1T BIS at 50k DPS. At lower levels around 30k DPS this increases to approx 3% less.
Why is that value so low: The new staff passives do a very good job at boosting the magicka builds dmg by some percent (and templar is the class that profits the least from the changes).
Summary:
The changes, especially the change to proc sets increases the gap between top and bottom DPS even further. The DPS level of top groups will hardly change, thanks to Molag Kena. The change to warhorn, does its job in decreasing the top dmg, but it removes Twice Born Star from endgame trials and we end up with drop sets only as BIS items.
Additional note:
Many BIS setups require set weapons from dungeons or trials. Please take a look at the loottables (im looking at you 1/600 chance for a BSW sharpened inferno) and remove stamina weapons from magicka sets and vice versa (keep swords for magicka builds). The grind for Moondancer swords or BSW staffs is much worse than the MSA grind and needs some changes.
Feel free to use the spreadsheets and share your insights.
Thank you for reading.
PS: @ZOS_RichLambert do you have a gear + DPS simulation tool at ZOS? If not you might want to check out these tables. And while you are here you might want to comment on the findings concerning the balance changes.
Hello,
Edit: sry for the title. Seems like these days only clickbait *** works. Fair warning: you will find mostly facts in here so if you don't like them feel free to leave.
There is a summary in the end.
Since the PTS templates are missing quite a few sets for testing (moondacer, BSW, infallible aether, ...) and I'm am just doing masters programm in theoretical physics i thought it might be a good idea to create a comprehensive model in order to simulate different gear setups in a raid environment.
So i went ahead and created the following spreadsheet.
This might be the Ultimate theorycrafting spreadsheet so far!
Spreadsheet-link
Unfortunately it is limited to magicka builds since theorycrafting for stamina builds is way more complicated thanks to the vMA dagger/axe enchant.
Some explanations for those who are interested to work with it:
The most important values are the "Base ability factor" and the "base light attack factor" in the character stats section. These have to be adjusted in order to match actual results, especially the light attack factor since no one is weaving perfectely.
Other important input values are the uptimes for set bonis like burning spellweave, moondancer, kena, etc. All fields that need experimental input are highlighted yellow.
Features:
- One spreadsheet for every class with preset passives and sets
- Comparison of two different setups at different DPS levels
- Automatic calculation of character stats and dps based on the filled in sets
- Adjustable uptimes for set procs, time spend on bar 1 and 2, etc.
- Includes all new passives for staffs and adjustable values for the amount of AOE and single target dmg done
- Switches for every passive/buff relevant for magicka builds
- Correct calculation of set bonis like moondancer and BSW (if procced on backbar it is still active on frontbar)
- Experimental data for the CP stat multiplier, ability scaling and light attack scaling
- and some more
Since the original purpose of this spreadsheet is to get some numbers to judge the recent balance changes i would like to do that here.
Results:
I wont copy all the tables here, but the exact numbers can be found in the "Results" tab.
So fist lets remember the goals of the update 13 balancing and discuss the made changes.ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »
- Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
- Raising the floor on the bottom damage
- Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels
Proc set crit change:
So this is in the lower the ceiling category, but acually it works the following way:
For top level DPS (~50k DPS) the loss is arround 2% dmg, for lower tiers (~30k DPS) the DPS loss increases over 3% dmg. So while this change reduces the dmg done by top dps by approx 1-2k it hurts the lower groups way more so it is directely countering the raising the floor on the bottom dmg intention.
Kena vs proc sets:
Many people (including me) claimed that the Molag Kena monster set will be best in slot (BIS) again with the change that proc sets cant crit anymore so lets check the numbers:
First we have to mention that kena will be more effective when dealing more dmg and proc sets like grothdarr and ilambris will always deal the same damage. For almost all classes the break even point is somewhere arround 37k dps assuming 60% Kena uptime. With higher uptimes Grothdarr/Ilambris will fall back further.
So what does that mean?
A good group with magicka support (minor magicka steal, undaunted orbs, etc) can easily sustain kena. At 50k DPS kena can make 1.4% more dps than a setup with Grothdarr on a templar. So the 1.9% the group lost due to the crit change can almost be negated by a switch to Kena instead of Grothdarr (at least in single target fights).
Kena can negate the whole intention behind the proc set nerf in terms of the "lower the ceiling" intention.
Warhorn Change
The change to major force being additive instead of multiplicative hits some classes more than others. The least affected is the Sorcerer class loosing arround 0.85% dmg when playing without rearming trap or guard. A templar with trap and the 10% crit from the passives looses around 1.8% dmg. Every build using Twice Born Star will loose an additional 0.70%.
This falls in the lower the ceiling category and does its job, while is still don't agree because it also hurts the bottom dmg in the same way.
What bothers me the most about this change is, that TBS will fall behind all other competitive sets (even Julianos is now significantely better, instead of being on par).
No warhorn vs warhorn every 18 secs
Good groups use an agressive warhorn approx every 18 secs to get a high major force uptime. Compared to groups with no warhorn they will still deal arround 6.2% more dmg than groups with no horn (arround 8% with major force multiplicative). So here we still have a decent dmg increase for groups with horn compared to groups without.
Warhorn every 30s vs warhorn every 18 secs
Groups with 50% major force uptime (horn every 18s) get nerfed by approx 1.7% compared to groups with no warhorn, and by 0.7% compared to groups with a horn every 30s.
Total nerf:
If we compare the BIS sets according to my calculations before and after 2.7 we find that a Templar looses around 1% dmg compared to the 1T BIS at 50k DPS. At lower levels around 30k DPS this increases to approx 3% less.
Why is that value so low: The new staff passives do a very good job at boosting the magicka builds dmg by some percent (and templar is the class that profits the least from the changes).
Summary:
The changes, especially the change to proc sets increases the gap between top and bottom DPS even further. The DPS level of top groups will hardly change, thanks to Molag Kena. The change to warhorn, does its job in decreasing the top dmg, but it removes Twice Born Star from endgame trials and we end up with drop sets only as BIS items.
Additional note:
Many BIS setups require set weapons from dungeons or trials. Please take a look at the loottables (im looking at you 1/600 chance for a BSW sharpened inferno) and remove stamina weapons from magicka sets and vice versa (keep swords for magicka builds). The grind for Moondancer swords or BSW staffs is much worse than the MSA grind and needs some changes.
Feel free to use the spreadsheets and share your insights.
Thank you for reading.
PS: @ZOS_RichLambert do you have a gear + DPS simulation tool at ZOS? If not you might want to check out these tables. And while you are here you might want to comment on the findings concerning the balance changes.
No. Haven't seen a single episode.stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »Sheldon is that you?
hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Hello,
Edit: sry for the title. Seems like these days only clickbait *** works. Fair warning: you will find mostly facts in here so if you don't like them feel free to leave.
There is a summary in the end.
Since the PTS templates are missing quite a few sets for testing (moondacer, BSW, infallible aether, ...) and I'm am just doing masters programm in theoretical physics i thought it might be a good idea to create a comprehensive model in order to simulate different gear setups in a raid environment.
So i went ahead and created the following spreadsheet.
This might be the Ultimate theorycrafting spreadsheet so far!
Spreadsheet-link
Unfortunately it is limited to magicka builds since theorycrafting for stamina builds is way more complicated thanks to the vMA dagger/axe enchant.
Some explanations for those who are interested to work with it:
The most important values are the "Base ability factor" and the "base light attack factor" in the character stats section. These have to be adjusted in order to match actual results, especially the light attack factor since no one is weaving perfectely.
Other important input values are the uptimes for set bonis like burning spellweave, moondancer, kena, etc. All fields that need experimental input are highlighted yellow.
Features:
- One spreadsheet for every class with preset passives and sets
- Comparison of two different setups at different DPS levels
- Automatic calculation of character stats and dps based on the filled in sets
- Adjustable uptimes for set procs, time spend on bar 1 and 2, etc.
- Includes all new passives for staffs and adjustable values for the amount of AOE and single target dmg done
- Switches for every passive/buff relevant for magicka builds
- Correct calculation of set bonis like moondancer and BSW (if procced on backbar it is still active on frontbar)
- Experimental data for the CP stat multiplier, ability scaling and light attack scaling
- and some more
Since the original purpose of this spreadsheet is to get some numbers to judge the recent balance changes i would like to do that here.
Results:
I wont copy all the tables here, but the exact numbers can be found in the "Results" tab.
So fist lets remember the goals of the update 13 balancing and discuss the made changes.ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »
- Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
- Raising the floor on the bottom damage
- Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels
Proc set crit change:
So this is in the lower the ceiling category, but acually it works the following way:
For top level DPS (~50k DPS) the loss is arround 2% dmg, for lower tiers (~30k DPS) the DPS loss increases over 3% dmg. So while this change reduces the dmg done by top dps by approx 1-2k it hurts the lower groups way more so it is directely countering the raising the floor on the bottom dmg intention.
Kena vs proc sets:
Many people (including me) claimed that the Molag Kena monster set will be best in slot (BIS) again with the change that proc sets cant crit anymore so lets check the numbers:
First we have to mention that kena will be more effective when dealing more dmg and proc sets like grothdarr and ilambris will always deal the same damage. For almost all classes the break even point is somewhere arround 37k dps assuming 60% Kena uptime. With higher uptimes Grothdarr/Ilambris will fall back further.
So what does that mean?
A good group with magicka support (minor magicka steal, undaunted orbs, etc) can easily sustain kena. At 50k DPS kena can make 1.4% more dps than a setup with Grothdarr on a templar. So the 1.9% the group lost due to the crit change can almost be negated by a switch to Kena instead of Grothdarr (at least in single target fights).
Kena can negate the whole intention behind the proc set nerf in terms of the "lower the ceiling" intention.
Warhorn Change
The change to major force being additive instead of multiplicative hits some classes more than others. The least affected is the Sorcerer class loosing arround 0.85% dmg when playing without rearming trap or guard. A templar with trap and the 10% crit from the passives looses around 1.8% dmg. Every build using Twice Born Star will loose an additional 0.70%.
This falls in the lower the ceiling category and does its job, while is still don't agree because it also hurts the bottom dmg in the same way.
What bothers me the most about this change is, that TBS will fall behind all other competitive sets (even Julianos is now significantely better, instead of being on par).
No warhorn vs warhorn every 18 secs
Good groups use an agressive warhorn approx every 18 secs to get a high major force uptime. Compared to groups with no warhorn they will still deal arround 6.2% more dmg than groups with no horn (arround 8% with major force multiplicative). So here we still have a decent dmg increase for groups with horn compared to groups without.
Warhorn every 30s vs warhorn every 18 secs
Groups with 50% major force uptime (horn every 18s) get nerfed by approx 1.7% compared to groups with no warhorn, and by 0.7% compared to groups with a horn every 30s.
Total nerf:
If we compare the BIS sets according to my calculations before and after 2.7 we find that a Templar looses around 1% dmg compared to the 1T BIS at 50k DPS. At lower levels around 30k DPS this increases to approx 3% less.
Why is that value so low: The new staff passives do a very good job at boosting the magicka builds dmg by some percent (and templar is the class that profits the least from the changes).
Summary:
The changes, especially the change to proc sets increases the gap between top and bottom DPS even further. The DPS level of top groups will hardly change, thanks to Molag Kena. The change to warhorn, does its job in decreasing the top dmg, but it removes Twice Born Star from endgame trials and we end up with drop sets only as BIS items.
Additional note:
Many BIS setups require set weapons from dungeons or trials. Please take a look at the loottables (im looking at you 1/600 chance for a BSW sharpened inferno) and remove stamina weapons from magicka sets and vice versa (keep swords for magicka builds). The grind for Moondancer swords or BSW staffs is much worse than the MSA grind and needs some changes.
Feel free to use the spreadsheets and share your insights.
Thank you for reading.
PS: @ZOS_RichLambert do you have a gear + DPS simulation tool at ZOS? If not you might want to check out these tables. And while you are here you might want to comment on the findings concerning the balance changes.
My in game testing on the PTS showed a dramatic increase across the board for all magicka classes...
Silver_Strider wrote: »Ok, I'm stupid when it comes to spread sheets with all their prettiful colors and numbers so I've got a few questions if you would be so kind to indulge me.
Since the changes to Minor and Major force greatly impacts the Shadow Mundus more than anything, did you happen to test TBS with a different 2nd Mundus, say the Mage, instead?
If so, how does it compare to the Shadow Mundus now?
How much of a difference was there between the 2 bonuses with no Warhorn, Warhorn every 18 seconds and Warhorn every 30 seconds?
MLGProPlayer wrote: »Aren't you losing out on BSW procs without Grothdarr?
Just 2 weeks ago....I finally got my 2nd Moondancer Sharpened sword....that is like 9 months of straight raiding Maw of Lorkhaj......a lot........a lot of raids...mkay
Good luck farming
I also do think magplars got the biggest hit this update....
SublimeSparo wrote: »Ugh pretty much what i predicted. Hate kena, especially now you can't put siphon and ele drain up together, is it even viable with just minor magicka steal and orbs? And ever since they changed animation priorities weaving is clunky af at the best of times making me think uptime won't be great either. Think i'll just take the dps loss tbh.
Is the tl;dr regarding sets-
DK 5 bsw 4 aether 2 kena/ groth 1 vma
Sorc 5 bsw 4 moondancer 2 kena/llambris 1 vma
Templar 5 bsw 5 moondancer 2 groth/kena 1 vma
Or did i missread
Just 2 weeks ago....I finally got my 2nd Moondancer Sharpened sword....that is like 9 months of straight raiding Maw of Lorkhaj......a lot........a lot of raids...mkay
Good luck farming
I also do think magplars got the biggest hit this update....
Yeah the problem for mag Templars is that they got the execute nerfed (approx 5% dmg loss) and they don't profit a lot from the new staff passives because they were played with a dual wield mainbar. Now it looks like they will just put jabs on the staff bar and the rest stays the same. A lightning staff would be the best because basically everything they do is aoe but with the TBS nerf they most likely have to run BSW so we have to see what uptimes are possible with a lightning staff.
The buff to purifiying light is actually pretty good on the other side. Should bring back like 1-1.5k DPS.SublimeSparo wrote: »Ugh pretty much what i predicted. Hate kena, especially now you can't put siphon and ele drain up together, is it even viable with just minor magicka steal and orbs? And ever since they changed animation priorities weaving is clunky af at the best of times making me think uptime won't be great either. Think i'll just take the dps loss tbh.
Is the tl;dr regarding sets-
DK 5 bsw 4 aether 2 kena/ groth 1 vma
Sorc 5 bsw 4 moondancer 2 kena/llambris 1 vma
Templar 5 bsw 5 moondancer 2 groth/kena 1 vma
Or did i missread
Yeah that's about right. There are some interesting alternative setups if you don't want to run Kena.
DKs can also run with 5 Moondancer (3 jewels, 1 Body, Backbar), 5 BSW, 1 Kena, 1vMA frontbar. Even with the loss of 2% max magicka from undaunted this setup can outperform the 2 Kena setup if you reach higher uptimes on the buffs (Moondancer vs Kena).
Templars and NBs will have the hardest time keeping BSW up long enough but you need less than 50% in order to loose the BIS title to Julianos. That means you have 4 seconds to proc it with a 20% chance on every fire dmg.
While NBs could also go with scathing mage, templars can't because of the long execute phase.
NightbladeMechanics wrote: »Proc sets weren't nerfed for pve.
Just 2 weeks ago....I finally got my 2nd Moondancer Sharpened sword....that is like 9 months of straight raiding Maw of Lorkhaj......a lot........a lot of raids...mkay
Good luck farming
I also do think magplars got the biggest hit this update....
Yeah the problem for mag Templars is that they got the execute nerfed (approx 5% dmg loss) and they don't profit a lot from the new staff passives because they were played with a dual wield mainbar. Now it looks like they will just put jabs on the staff bar and the rest stays the same. A lightning staff would be the best because basically everything they do is aoe but with the TBS nerf they most likely have to run BSW so we have to see what uptimes are possible with a lightning staff.
The buff to purifiying light is actually pretty good on the other side. Should bring back like 1-1.5k DPS.
Just 2 weeks ago....I finally got my 2nd Moondancer Sharpened sword....that is like 9 months of straight raiding Maw of Lorkhaj......a lot........a lot of raids...mkay
Good luck farming
I also do think magplars got the biggest hit this update....
Yeah the problem for mag Templars is that they got the execute nerfed (approx 5% dmg loss) and they don't profit a lot from the new staff passives because they were played with a dual wield mainbar. Now it looks like they will just put jabs on the staff bar and the rest stays the same. A lightning staff would be the best because basically everything they do is aoe but with the TBS nerf they most likely have to run BSW so we have to see what uptimes are possible with a lightning staff.
The buff to purifiying light is actually pretty good on the other side. Should bring back like 1-1.5k DPS.
We were also thinking maybe sstaying with Dualwield so you can go 5x MD 5x Bsw 2x Grothgar. On the other hand you also could backbar MD proc but we know synergies are a **** to activate.
BSW is approx 55% uptime on magplar with a DW setup, should not really change a lot if you go shock.
Shockstaff is a must for templars as almost everything is AOE dmg.
The question is, is the LIGHT ATTACK damage outdpsing the Dualwield setup? Most likely, also would allow us to do WAY more AoE dps with shockstaff and Spear DoT etc.
Two little issues:
- When you copy in Julianos the 5 piece bonus is not updated right away as the uptime is missing (in the Templar sheet) if you set it to 100% manually it works fine.
- When you use Infallible Aether + MD you should not use more than one Minor Slayer, would be cool if this was also automatically neglected.
Have you given any thought about someone using a Lightning Wall of elements and make use of 75 CP in ritual to boost damage vs. off balance targets. The question is who uses the Lightning staff on that. It's not that easy to come up with a way how to treat this..
Two little issues:
- When you copy in Julianos the 5 piece bonus is not updated right away as the uptime is missing (in the Templar sheet) if you set it to 100% manually it works fine.
- When you use Infallible Aether + MD you should not use more than one Minor Slayer, would be cool if this was also automatically neglected.
Have you given any thought about someone using a Lightning Wall of elements and make use of 75 CP in ritual to boost damage vs. off balance targets. The question is who uses the Lightning staff on that. It's not that easy to come up with a way how to treat this..