The Scalebreaker DLC game pack and Update 23 base-game patch are now available to test on the PTS! Read the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts

Homestead Theorycrafting & Feedback

GilGalad
GilGalad
✭✭✭✭✭
Hello,

Edit: sry for the title. Seems like these days only clickbait *** works. Fair warning: you will find mostly facts in here so if you don't like them feel free to leave.
There is a summary in the end.

Edit 2: Title changed back to original one.

Since the PTS templates are missing quite a few sets for testing (moondacer, BSW, infallible aether, ...) and I'm am just doing masters programm in theoretical physics i thought it might be a good idea to create a comprehensive model in order to simulate different gear setups in a raid environment.

So i went ahead and created the following spreadsheet.
This might be the Ultimate theorycrafting spreadsheet so far!
Spreadsheet-link

Unfortunately it is limited to magicka builds since theorycrafting for stamina builds is way more complicated thanks to the vMA dagger/axe enchant.

Some explanations for those who are interested to work with it:
The most important values are the "Base ability factor" and the "base light attack factor" in the character stats section. These have to be adjusted in order to match actual results, especially the light attack factor since no one is weaving perfectely.
Other important input values are the uptimes for set bonis like burning spellweave, moondancer, kena, etc. All fields that need experimental input are highlighted yellow.

Features:
- One spreadsheet for every class with preset passives and sets
- Comparison of two different setups at different DPS levels
- Automatic calculation of character stats and dps based on the filled in sets
- Adjustable uptimes for set procs, time spend on bar 1 and 2, etc.
- Includes all new passives for staffs and adjustable values for the amount of AOE and single target dmg done
- Switches for every passive/buff relevant for magicka builds
- Correct calculation of set bonis like moondancer and BSW (if procced on backbar it is still active on frontbar)
- Experimental data for the CP stat multiplier, ability scaling and light attack scaling
- and some more

Since the original purpose of this spreadsheet is to get some numbers to judge the recent balance changes i would like to do that here.

Results:
I wont copy all the tables here, but the exact numbers can be found in the "Results" tab.

So fist lets remember the goals of the update 13 balancing and discuss the made changes.
  • Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
  • Raising the floor on the bottom damage
  • Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

Proc set crit change:
So this is in the lower the ceiling category, but acually it works the following way:
For top level DPS (~50k DPS) the loss is arround 2% dmg, for lower tiers (~30k DPS) the DPS loss increases over 3% dmg. So while this change reduces the dmg done by top dps by approx 1-2k it hurts the lower groups way more so it is directely countering the raising the floor on the bottom dmg intention.

Kena vs proc sets:
Many people (including me) claimed that the Molag Kena monster set will be best in slot (BIS) again with the change that proc sets cant crit anymore so lets check the numbers:

First we have to mention that kena will be more effective when dealing more dmg and proc sets like grothdarr and ilambris will always deal the same damage. For almost all classes the break even point is somewhere arround 37k dps assuming 60% Kena uptime. With higher uptimes Grothdarr/Ilambris will fall back further.
So what does that mean?
A good group with magicka support (minor magicka steal, undaunted orbs, etc) can easily sustain kena. At 50k DPS kena can make 1.4% more dps than a setup with Grothdarr on a templar. So the 1.9% the group lost due to the crit change can almost be negated by a switch to Kena instead of Grothdarr (at least in single target fights).
Kena can negate the whole intention behind the proc set nerf in terms of the "lower the ceiling" intention.

Warhorn Change
The change to major force being additive instead of multiplicative hits some classes more than others. The least affected is the Sorcerer class loosing arround 0.85% dmg when playing without rearming trap or guard. A templar with trap and the 10% crit from the passives looses around 1.8% dmg. Every build using Twice Born Star will loose an additional 0.70%.
This falls in the lower the ceiling category and does its job, while is still don't agree because it also hurts the bottom dmg in the same way.
What bothers me the most about this change is, that TBS will fall behind all other competitive sets (even Julianos is now significantely better, instead of being on par).

No warhorn vs warhorn every 18 secs
Good groups use an agressive warhorn approx every 18 secs to get a high major force uptime. Compared to groups with no warhorn they will still deal arround 6.2% more dmg than groups with no horn (arround 8% with major force multiplicative). So here we still have a decent dmg increase for groups with horn compared to groups without.

Warhorn every 30s vs warhorn every 18 secs
Groups with 50% major force uptime (horn every 18s) get nerfed by approx 1.7% compared to groups with no warhorn, and by 0.7% compared to groups with a horn every 30s.

Total nerf:

If we compare the BIS sets according to my calculations before and after 2.7 we find that a Templar looses around 1% dmg compared to the 1T BIS at 50k DPS. At lower levels around 30k DPS this increases to approx 3% less.
Why is that value so low: The new staff passives do a very good job at boosting the magicka builds dmg by some percent (and templar is the class that profits the least from the changes).

Summary:

The changes, especially the change to proc sets increases the gap between top and bottom DPS even further. The DPS level of top groups will hardly change, thanks to Molag Kena. The change to warhorn, does its job in decreasing the top dmg, but it removes Twice Born Star from endgame trials and we end up with drop sets only as BIS items.

Additional note:

Many BIS setups require set weapons from dungeons or trials. Please take a look at the loottables (im looking at you 1/600 chance for a BSW sharpened inferno) and remove stamina weapons from magicka sets and vice versa (keep swords for magicka builds). The grind for Moondancer swords or BSW staffs is much worse than the MSA grind and needs some changes.

Feel free to use the spreadsheets and share your insights.

Thank you for reading.

PS: @ZOS_RichLambert do you have a gear + DPS simulation tool at ZOS? If not you might want to check out these tables. And while you are here you might want to comment on the findings concerning the balance changes. :wink:
Edited by GilGalad on January 18, 2017 9:56PM
Animals Unchained | PC EU
Homestead Theorycrafting
Math of RNG
  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Changed title to be more accurate.
    Animals Unchained | PC EU
    Homestead Theorycrafting
    Math of RNG
  • Zaryc
    Zaryc
    ✭✭✭
    This is awesome!
  • HuawaSepp
    HuawaSepp
    ✭✭✭
    Thank you, very useful
    PTS-EU
  • Rohamad_Ali
    Rohamad_Ali
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
  • stevepdodson_ESO888
    stevepdodson_ESO888
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sheldon is that you?
  • King-Justin-Arisdale
    Thanks for the theory crafting! Not liking what I am seeing.

    I said this before but we need a token system or something to help with the bad drop rates if they will not change them.

    In my case, I have been the tank for guilds for over two years, therefore I pass all the dps drops to the dps in the guild until they are outfitted. After many months of doing content for drops that leaves me with NOTHING when I change my focus to become a dps to get into VMaw again. I am now frustrated. I have very little BSW , little VO, and no IA. From what I hear it will take me a horribly long time to get it all. I am not one who seeks instant gratification but like GilGalad said 1/600 chance?! Come on...
    Edited by King-Justin-Arisdale on January 15, 2017 12:37AM
    King Justin Arisdale - Argonian DK Tank for Accidental Aggro
    Author of the epic fantasy novel series The Silver Dolphins Saga, http://www.thesilverdolphinssaga.com/
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Ok, I'm stupid when it comes to spread sheets with all their prettiful colors and numbers so I've got a few questions if you would be so kind to indulge me.

    Since the changes to Minor and Major force greatly impacts the Shadow Mundus more than anything, did you happen to test TBS with a different 2nd Mundus, say the Mage, instead?

    If so, how does it compare to the Shadow Mundus now?

    How much of a difference was there between the 2 bonuses with no Warhorn, Warhorn every 18 seconds and Warhorn every 30 seconds?
    Argonian forever
  • rxhymn
    rxhymn
    ✭✭✭
    GilGalad wrote: »
    Hello,

    Edit: sry for the title. Seems like these days only clickbait *** works. Fair warning: you will find mostly facts in here so if you don't like them feel free to leave.
    There is a summary in the end.

    Since the PTS templates are missing quite a few sets for testing (moondacer, BSW, infallible aether, ...) and I'm am just doing masters programm in theoretical physics i thought it might be a good idea to create a comprehensive model in order to simulate different gear setups in a raid environment.

    So i went ahead and created the following spreadsheet.
    This might be the Ultimate theorycrafting spreadsheet so far!
    Spreadsheet-link

    Unfortunately it is limited to magicka builds since theorycrafting for stamina builds is way more complicated thanks to the vMA dagger/axe enchant.

    Some explanations for those who are interested to work with it:
    The most important values are the "Base ability factor" and the "base light attack factor" in the character stats section. These have to be adjusted in order to match actual results, especially the light attack factor since no one is weaving perfectely.
    Other important input values are the uptimes for set bonis like burning spellweave, moondancer, kena, etc. All fields that need experimental input are highlighted yellow.

    Features:
    - One spreadsheet for every class with preset passives and sets
    - Comparison of two different setups at different DPS levels
    - Automatic calculation of character stats and dps based on the filled in sets
    - Adjustable uptimes for set procs, time spend on bar 1 and 2, etc.
    - Includes all new passives for staffs and adjustable values for the amount of AOE and single target dmg done
    - Switches for every passive/buff relevant for magicka builds
    - Correct calculation of set bonis like moondancer and BSW (if procced on backbar it is still active on frontbar)
    - Experimental data for the CP stat multiplier, ability scaling and light attack scaling
    - and some more

    Since the original purpose of this spreadsheet is to get some numbers to judge the recent balance changes i would like to do that here.

    Results:
    I wont copy all the tables here, but the exact numbers can be found in the "Results" tab.

    So fist lets remember the goals of the update 13 balancing and discuss the made changes.
    • Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
    • Raising the floor on the bottom damage
    • Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

    Proc set crit change:
    So this is in the lower the ceiling category, but acually it works the following way:
    For top level DPS (~50k DPS) the loss is arround 2% dmg, for lower tiers (~30k DPS) the DPS loss increases over 3% dmg. So while this change reduces the dmg done by top dps by approx 1-2k it hurts the lower groups way more so it is directely countering the raising the floor on the bottom dmg intention.

    Kena vs proc sets:
    Many people (including me) claimed that the Molag Kena monster set will be best in slot (BIS) again with the change that proc sets cant crit anymore so lets check the numbers:

    First we have to mention that kena will be more effective when dealing more dmg and proc sets like grothdarr and ilambris will always deal the same damage. For almost all classes the break even point is somewhere arround 37k dps assuming 60% Kena uptime. With higher uptimes Grothdarr/Ilambris will fall back further.
    So what does that mean?
    A good group with magicka support (minor magicka steal, undaunted orbs, etc) can easily sustain kena. At 50k DPS kena can make 1.4% more dps than a setup with Grothdarr on a templar. So the 1.9% the group lost due to the crit change can almost be negated by a switch to Kena instead of Grothdarr (at least in single target fights).
    Kena can negate the whole intention behind the proc set nerf in terms of the "lower the ceiling" intention.

    Warhorn Change
    The change to major force being additive instead of multiplicative hits some classes more than others. The least affected is the Sorcerer class loosing arround 0.85% dmg when playing without rearming trap or guard. A templar with trap and the 10% crit from the passives looses around 1.8% dmg. Every build using Twice Born Star will loose an additional 0.70%.
    This falls in the lower the ceiling category and does its job, while is still don't agree because it also hurts the bottom dmg in the same way.
    What bothers me the most about this change is, that TBS will fall behind all other competitive sets (even Julianos is now significantely better, instead of being on par).

    No warhorn vs warhorn every 18 secs
    Good groups use an agressive warhorn approx every 18 secs to get a high major force uptime. Compared to groups with no warhorn they will still deal arround 6.2% more dmg than groups with no horn (arround 8% with major force multiplicative). So here we still have a decent dmg increase for groups with horn compared to groups without.

    Warhorn every 30s vs warhorn every 18 secs
    Groups with 50% major force uptime (horn every 18s) get nerfed by approx 1.7% compared to groups with no warhorn, and by 0.7% compared to groups with a horn every 30s.

    Total nerf:

    If we compare the BIS sets according to my calculations before and after 2.7 we find that a Templar looses around 1% dmg compared to the 1T BIS at 50k DPS. At lower levels around 30k DPS this increases to approx 3% less.
    Why is that value so low: The new staff passives do a very good job at boosting the magicka builds dmg by some percent (and templar is the class that profits the least from the changes).

    Summary:

    The changes, especially the change to proc sets increases the gap between top and bottom DPS even further. The DPS level of top groups will hardly change, thanks to Molag Kena. The change to warhorn, does its job in decreasing the top dmg, but it removes Twice Born Star from endgame trials and we end up with drop sets only as BIS items.

    Additional note:

    Many BIS setups require set weapons from dungeons or trials. Please take a look at the loottables (im looking at you 1/600 chance for a BSW sharpened inferno) and remove stamina weapons from magicka sets and vice versa (keep swords for magicka builds). The grind for Moondancer swords or BSW staffs is much worse than the MSA grind and needs some changes.

    Feel free to use the spreadsheets and share your insights.

    Thank you for reading.

    PS: @ZOS_RichLambert do you have a gear + DPS simulation tool at ZOS? If not you might want to check out these tables. And while you are here you might want to comment on the findings concerning the balance changes. :wink:

    Im not going to lie... I didnt read it all... but I believe you. haha
  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    GilGalad wrote: »
    Hello,

    Edit: sry for the title. Seems like these days only clickbait *** works. Fair warning: you will find mostly facts in here so if you don't like them feel free to leave.
    There is a summary in the end.

    Since the PTS templates are missing quite a few sets for testing (moondacer, BSW, infallible aether, ...) and I'm am just doing masters programm in theoretical physics i thought it might be a good idea to create a comprehensive model in order to simulate different gear setups in a raid environment.

    So i went ahead and created the following spreadsheet.
    This might be the Ultimate theorycrafting spreadsheet so far!
    Spreadsheet-link

    Unfortunately it is limited to magicka builds since theorycrafting for stamina builds is way more complicated thanks to the vMA dagger/axe enchant.

    Some explanations for those who are interested to work with it:
    The most important values are the "Base ability factor" and the "base light attack factor" in the character stats section. These have to be adjusted in order to match actual results, especially the light attack factor since no one is weaving perfectely.
    Other important input values are the uptimes for set bonis like burning spellweave, moondancer, kena, etc. All fields that need experimental input are highlighted yellow.

    Features:
    - One spreadsheet for every class with preset passives and sets
    - Comparison of two different setups at different DPS levels
    - Automatic calculation of character stats and dps based on the filled in sets
    - Adjustable uptimes for set procs, time spend on bar 1 and 2, etc.
    - Includes all new passives for staffs and adjustable values for the amount of AOE and single target dmg done
    - Switches for every passive/buff relevant for magicka builds
    - Correct calculation of set bonis like moondancer and BSW (if procced on backbar it is still active on frontbar)
    - Experimental data for the CP stat multiplier, ability scaling and light attack scaling
    - and some more

    Since the original purpose of this spreadsheet is to get some numbers to judge the recent balance changes i would like to do that here.

    Results:
    I wont copy all the tables here, but the exact numbers can be found in the "Results" tab.

    So fist lets remember the goals of the update 13 balancing and discuss the made changes.
    • Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
    • Raising the floor on the bottom damage
    • Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

    Proc set crit change:
    So this is in the lower the ceiling category, but acually it works the following way:
    For top level DPS (~50k DPS) the loss is arround 2% dmg, for lower tiers (~30k DPS) the DPS loss increases over 3% dmg. So while this change reduces the dmg done by top dps by approx 1-2k it hurts the lower groups way more so it is directely countering the raising the floor on the bottom dmg intention.

    Kena vs proc sets:
    Many people (including me) claimed that the Molag Kena monster set will be best in slot (BIS) again with the change that proc sets cant crit anymore so lets check the numbers:

    First we have to mention that kena will be more effective when dealing more dmg and proc sets like grothdarr and ilambris will always deal the same damage. For almost all classes the break even point is somewhere arround 37k dps assuming 60% Kena uptime. With higher uptimes Grothdarr/Ilambris will fall back further.
    So what does that mean?
    A good group with magicka support (minor magicka steal, undaunted orbs, etc) can easily sustain kena. At 50k DPS kena can make 1.4% more dps than a setup with Grothdarr on a templar. So the 1.9% the group lost due to the crit change can almost be negated by a switch to Kena instead of Grothdarr (at least in single target fights).
    Kena can negate the whole intention behind the proc set nerf in terms of the "lower the ceiling" intention.

    Warhorn Change
    The change to major force being additive instead of multiplicative hits some classes more than others. The least affected is the Sorcerer class loosing arround 0.85% dmg when playing without rearming trap or guard. A templar with trap and the 10% crit from the passives looses around 1.8% dmg. Every build using Twice Born Star will loose an additional 0.70%.
    This falls in the lower the ceiling category and does its job, while is still don't agree because it also hurts the bottom dmg in the same way.
    What bothers me the most about this change is, that TBS will fall behind all other competitive sets (even Julianos is now significantely better, instead of being on par).

    No warhorn vs warhorn every 18 secs
    Good groups use an agressive warhorn approx every 18 secs to get a high major force uptime. Compared to groups with no warhorn they will still deal arround 6.2% more dmg than groups with no horn (arround 8% with major force multiplicative). So here we still have a decent dmg increase for groups with horn compared to groups without.

    Warhorn every 30s vs warhorn every 18 secs
    Groups with 50% major force uptime (horn every 18s) get nerfed by approx 1.7% compared to groups with no warhorn, and by 0.7% compared to groups with a horn every 30s.

    Total nerf:

    If we compare the BIS sets according to my calculations before and after 2.7 we find that a Templar looses around 1% dmg compared to the 1T BIS at 50k DPS. At lower levels around 30k DPS this increases to approx 3% less.
    Why is that value so low: The new staff passives do a very good job at boosting the magicka builds dmg by some percent (and templar is the class that profits the least from the changes).

    Summary:

    The changes, especially the change to proc sets increases the gap between top and bottom DPS even further. The DPS level of top groups will hardly change, thanks to Molag Kena. The change to warhorn, does its job in decreasing the top dmg, but it removes Twice Born Star from endgame trials and we end up with drop sets only as BIS items.

    Additional note:

    Many BIS setups require set weapons from dungeons or trials. Please take a look at the loottables (im looking at you 1/600 chance for a BSW sharpened inferno) and remove stamina weapons from magicka sets and vice versa (keep swords for magicka builds). The grind for Moondancer swords or BSW staffs is much worse than the MSA grind and needs some changes.

    Feel free to use the spreadsheets and share your insights.

    Thank you for reading.

    PS: @ZOS_RichLambert do you have a gear + DPS simulation tool at ZOS? If not you might want to check out these tables. And while you are here you might want to comment on the findings concerning the balance changes. :wink:

    My in game testing on the PTS showed a dramatic increase across the board for all magicka classes...
  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    SirAndy wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »
    9 out of 10 ESO players won't understand what's happening in here!!!

    You're just a wee bit full of yourself, aren't you?
    rolleyes.gif

    This thread was online for 24h without any reply, so I had to do something. A title like "homestead theorycrafting & feedback" just doesn't work these days but I might change it back later. :wink:

    Sheldon is that you?
    No. Haven't seen a single episode. :smiley:
    GilGalad wrote: »
    Hello,

    Edit: sry for the title. Seems like these days only clickbait *** works. Fair warning: you will find mostly facts in here so if you don't like them feel free to leave.
    There is a summary in the end.

    Since the PTS templates are missing quite a few sets for testing (moondacer, BSW, infallible aether, ...) and I'm am just doing masters programm in theoretical physics i thought it might be a good idea to create a comprehensive model in order to simulate different gear setups in a raid environment.

    So i went ahead and created the following spreadsheet.
    This might be the Ultimate theorycrafting spreadsheet so far!
    Spreadsheet-link

    Unfortunately it is limited to magicka builds since theorycrafting for stamina builds is way more complicated thanks to the vMA dagger/axe enchant.

    Some explanations for those who are interested to work with it:
    The most important values are the "Base ability factor" and the "base light attack factor" in the character stats section. These have to be adjusted in order to match actual results, especially the light attack factor since no one is weaving perfectely.
    Other important input values are the uptimes for set bonis like burning spellweave, moondancer, kena, etc. All fields that need experimental input are highlighted yellow.

    Features:
    - One spreadsheet for every class with preset passives and sets
    - Comparison of two different setups at different DPS levels
    - Automatic calculation of character stats and dps based on the filled in sets
    - Adjustable uptimes for set procs, time spend on bar 1 and 2, etc.
    - Includes all new passives for staffs and adjustable values for the amount of AOE and single target dmg done
    - Switches for every passive/buff relevant for magicka builds
    - Correct calculation of set bonis like moondancer and BSW (if procced on backbar it is still active on frontbar)
    - Experimental data for the CP stat multiplier, ability scaling and light attack scaling
    - and some more

    Since the original purpose of this spreadsheet is to get some numbers to judge the recent balance changes i would like to do that here.

    Results:
    I wont copy all the tables here, but the exact numbers can be found in the "Results" tab.

    So fist lets remember the goals of the update 13 balancing and discuss the made changes.
    • Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
    • Raising the floor on the bottom damage
    • Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

    Proc set crit change:
    So this is in the lower the ceiling category, but acually it works the following way:
    For top level DPS (~50k DPS) the loss is arround 2% dmg, for lower tiers (~30k DPS) the DPS loss increases over 3% dmg. So while this change reduces the dmg done by top dps by approx 1-2k it hurts the lower groups way more so it is directely countering the raising the floor on the bottom dmg intention.

    Kena vs proc sets:
    Many people (including me) claimed that the Molag Kena monster set will be best in slot (BIS) again with the change that proc sets cant crit anymore so lets check the numbers:

    First we have to mention that kena will be more effective when dealing more dmg and proc sets like grothdarr and ilambris will always deal the same damage. For almost all classes the break even point is somewhere arround 37k dps assuming 60% Kena uptime. With higher uptimes Grothdarr/Ilambris will fall back further.
    So what does that mean?
    A good group with magicka support (minor magicka steal, undaunted orbs, etc) can easily sustain kena. At 50k DPS kena can make 1.4% more dps than a setup with Grothdarr on a templar. So the 1.9% the group lost due to the crit change can almost be negated by a switch to Kena instead of Grothdarr (at least in single target fights).
    Kena can negate the whole intention behind the proc set nerf in terms of the "lower the ceiling" intention.

    Warhorn Change
    The change to major force being additive instead of multiplicative hits some classes more than others. The least affected is the Sorcerer class loosing arround 0.85% dmg when playing without rearming trap or guard. A templar with trap and the 10% crit from the passives looses around 1.8% dmg. Every build using Twice Born Star will loose an additional 0.70%.
    This falls in the lower the ceiling category and does its job, while is still don't agree because it also hurts the bottom dmg in the same way.
    What bothers me the most about this change is, that TBS will fall behind all other competitive sets (even Julianos is now significantely better, instead of being on par).

    No warhorn vs warhorn every 18 secs
    Good groups use an agressive warhorn approx every 18 secs to get a high major force uptime. Compared to groups with no warhorn they will still deal arround 6.2% more dmg than groups with no horn (arround 8% with major force multiplicative). So here we still have a decent dmg increase for groups with horn compared to groups without.

    Warhorn every 30s vs warhorn every 18 secs
    Groups with 50% major force uptime (horn every 18s) get nerfed by approx 1.7% compared to groups with no warhorn, and by 0.7% compared to groups with a horn every 30s.

    Total nerf:

    If we compare the BIS sets according to my calculations before and after 2.7 we find that a Templar looses around 1% dmg compared to the 1T BIS at 50k DPS. At lower levels around 30k DPS this increases to approx 3% less.
    Why is that value so low: The new staff passives do a very good job at boosting the magicka builds dmg by some percent (and templar is the class that profits the least from the changes).

    Summary:

    The changes, especially the change to proc sets increases the gap between top and bottom DPS even further. The DPS level of top groups will hardly change, thanks to Molag Kena. The change to warhorn, does its job in decreasing the top dmg, but it removes Twice Born Star from endgame trials and we end up with drop sets only as BIS items.

    Additional note:

    Many BIS setups require set weapons from dungeons or trials. Please take a look at the loottables (im looking at you 1/600 chance for a BSW sharpened inferno) and remove stamina weapons from magicka sets and vice versa (keep swords for magicka builds). The grind for Moondancer swords or BSW staffs is much worse than the MSA grind and needs some changes.

    Feel free to use the spreadsheets and share your insights.

    Thank you for reading.

    PS: @ZOS_RichLambert do you have a gear + DPS simulation tool at ZOS? If not you might want to check out these tables. And while you are here you might want to comment on the findings concerning the balance changes. :wink:

    My in game testing on the PTS showed a dramatic increase across the board for all magicka classes...

    The biggest flaw in the calculation is that I just use the relative amount of AOE and single target dmg over the whole fight to calculate the effectiveness of the new staff passives. With a smart skill layout on your bars you could get much closer to the 8% than with these calculations. I mainly wanted to show that changing the warhorn and proc set crit does not change much.
    I will share my testing results once the EU chars are on the PTS.
    Animals Unchained | PC EU
    Homestead Theorycrafting
    Math of RNG
  • Doctordarkspawn
    Doctordarkspawn
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Welp.

    I cant argue with numbers, or the logic. Well done. I just wish the news was better.
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  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aren't you losing out on BSW procs without Grothdarr?
  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aren't you losing out on BSW procs without Grothdarr?

    Depends on the class. DKs can manage to get 60-64% uptimes (66.67% maximum) so that's under 1 sec to proc on average and Grothdarr won't change much about that. On a Templar it might be worth it to stick with Grothdarr because you won't deal a lot of fire dmg (especially in the execute phase).
    But once testing is complete we will see.
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  • EvoAZN
    EvoAZN
    ✭✭✭
    thank you for this. lookin forward to a zos reply
    RiceGum

    Daggerfall Covenant
  • SublimeSparo
    SublimeSparo
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ugh pretty much what i predicted. Hate kena, especially now you can't put siphon and ele drain up together, is it even viable with just minor magicka steal and orbs? And ever since they changed animation priorities weaving is clunky af at the best of times making me think uptime won't be great either. Think i'll just take the dps loss tbh.
    Is the tl;dr regarding sets-
    DK 5 bsw 4 aether 2 kena/ groth 1 vma
    Sorc 5 bsw 4 moondancer 2 kena/llambris 1 vma
    Templar 5 bsw 5 moondancer 2 groth/kena 1 vma
    Or did i missread
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    Dilemma Dame - Altmer - mDK DD
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  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Alcast wrote: »
    Just 2 weeks ago....I finally got my 2nd Moondancer Sharpened sword....that is like 9 months of straight raiding Maw of Lorkhaj......a lot........a lot of raids...mkay

    Good luck farming :trollface:


    I also do think magplars got the biggest hit this update....

    Yeah the problem for mag Templars is that they got the execute nerfed (approx 5% dmg loss) and they don't profit a lot from the new staff passives because they were played with a dual wield mainbar. Now it looks like they will just put jabs on the staff bar and the rest stays the same. A lightning staff would be the best because basically everything they do is aoe but with the TBS nerf they most likely have to run BSW so we have to see what uptimes are possible with a lightning staff.

    The buff to purifiying light is actually pretty good on the other side. Should bring back like 1-1.5k DPS.
    Ugh pretty much what i predicted. Hate kena, especially now you can't put siphon and ele drain up together, is it even viable with just minor magicka steal and orbs? And ever since they changed animation priorities weaving is clunky af at the best of times making me think uptime won't be great either. Think i'll just take the dps loss tbh.
    Is the tl;dr regarding sets-
    DK 5 bsw 4 aether 2 kena/ groth 1 vma
    Sorc 5 bsw 4 moondancer 2 kena/llambris 1 vma
    Templar 5 bsw 5 moondancer 2 groth/kena 1 vma
    Or did i missread

    Yeah that's about right. There are some interesting alternative setups if you don't want to run Kena.
    DKs can also run with 5 Moondancer (3 jewels, 1 Body, Backbar), 5 BSW, 1 Kena, 1vMA frontbar. Even with the loss of 2% max magicka from undaunted this setup can outperform the 2 Kena setup if you reach higher uptimes on the buffs (Moondancer vs Kena).
    Templars and NBs will have the hardest time keeping BSW up long enough but you need less than 50% in order to loose the BIS title to Julianos. That means you have 4 seconds to proc it with a 20% chance on every fire dmg.
    While NBs could also go with scathing mage, templars can't because of the long execute phase.
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  • LorDrek
    LorDrek
    ✭✭✭
    Nerf MSA dagger, problem solved.
    Imperial DK stamDPS, Nord DK magTANK
    YDoA CZ/SK Guild
    @LorDrek
  • SublimeSparo
    SublimeSparo
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    GilGalad wrote: »
    Alcast wrote: »
    Just 2 weeks ago....I finally got my 2nd Moondancer Sharpened sword....that is like 9 months of straight raiding Maw of Lorkhaj......a lot........a lot of raids...mkay

    Good luck farming :trollface:


    I also do think magplars got the biggest hit this update....

    Yeah the problem for mag Templars is that they got the execute nerfed (approx 5% dmg loss) and they don't profit a lot from the new staff passives because they were played with a dual wield mainbar. Now it looks like they will just put jabs on the staff bar and the rest stays the same. A lightning staff would be the best because basically everything they do is aoe but with the TBS nerf they most likely have to run BSW so we have to see what uptimes are possible with a lightning staff.

    The buff to purifiying light is actually pretty good on the other side. Should bring back like 1-1.5k DPS.
    Ugh pretty much what i predicted. Hate kena, especially now you can't put siphon and ele drain up together, is it even viable with just minor magicka steal and orbs? And ever since they changed animation priorities weaving is clunky af at the best of times making me think uptime won't be great either. Think i'll just take the dps loss tbh.
    Is the tl;dr regarding sets-
    DK 5 bsw 4 aether 2 kena/ groth 1 vma
    Sorc 5 bsw 4 moondancer 2 kena/llambris 1 vma
    Templar 5 bsw 5 moondancer 2 groth/kena 1 vma
    Or did i missread

    Yeah that's about right. There are some interesting alternative setups if you don't want to run Kena.
    DKs can also run with 5 Moondancer (3 jewels, 1 Body, Backbar), 5 BSW, 1 Kena, 1vMA frontbar. Even with the loss of 2% max magicka from undaunted this setup can outperform the 2 Kena setup if you reach higher uptimes on the buffs (Moondancer vs Kena).
    Templars and NBs will have the hardest time keeping BSW up long enough but you need less than 50% in order to loose the BIS title to Julianos. That means you have 4 seconds to proc it with a 20% chance on every fire dmg.
    While NBs could also go with scathing mage, templars can't because of the long execute phase.

    I always find bsw quite easy to keep up on templar as long as there is 2+ targets using back bar weaves, blockade and reflective. Single target sometimes it feels lower (console so no idea on actual uptime) but i dont think it's ever been 4s or greater without proccing.

    The endless grind for sharpened set staves continues i guess :(

    Is lightning front bar, fire backbar still looking good for mag sorc? The one sharpened set staff i actually posses is a moondancer lightning
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  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Proc sets weren't nerfed for pve.
    Kena
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  • Destruent
    Destruent
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Great Post @GilGalad . Thx for all the information. :)
    Noobplar
  • SublimeSparo
    SublimeSparo
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Proc sets weren't nerfed for pve.

    As in they were nerfed because of pvp, or despite the nerf they aren't nerfed to the ground?
    PS4 EU CP900. PS4 NA CP600,
    vAA HM ☆ vHRC HM ☆ vSO HM ☆ vMOL
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    Wood Sparo - Bosmer - sNB DD
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    Dilemma Dame - Altmer - mDK DD
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    Jabjabjab Beambeambeam - Dunmer - mTe DD
    Spatium Auxiliarus - Imperial - hTe Tank&bank
    Spectre - Altmer - mNB DD
    Can't-Main-Tank -Argonian - sDK offTank
  • Alcast
    Alcast
    Class Representative
    GilGalad wrote: »
    Alcast wrote: »
    Just 2 weeks ago....I finally got my 2nd Moondancer Sharpened sword....that is like 9 months of straight raiding Maw of Lorkhaj......a lot........a lot of raids...mkay

    Good luck farming :trollface:


    I also do think magplars got the biggest hit this update....

    Yeah the problem for mag Templars is that they got the execute nerfed (approx 5% dmg loss) and they don't profit a lot from the new staff passives because they were played with a dual wield mainbar. Now it looks like they will just put jabs on the staff bar and the rest stays the same. A lightning staff would be the best because basically everything they do is aoe but with the TBS nerf they most likely have to run BSW so we have to see what uptimes are possible with a lightning staff.

    The buff to purifiying light is actually pretty good on the other side. Should bring back like 1-1.5k DPS.

    We were also thinking maybe sstaying with Dualwield so you can go 5x MD 5x Bsw 2x Grothgar. On the other hand you also could backbar MD proc but we know synergies are a **** to activate.
    BSW is approx 55% uptime on magplar with a DW setup, should not really change a lot if you go shock.

    Shockstaff is a must for templars as almost everything is AOE dmg.

    The question is, is the LIGHT ATTACK damage outdpsing the Dualwield setup? Most likely, also would allow us to do WAY more AoE dps with shockstaff and Spear DoT etc.
    Edited by Alcast on January 15, 2017 1:35PM
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  • Solinur
    Solinur
    ✭✭✭
    Two little issues:
    • When you copy in Julianos the 5 piece bonus is not updated right away as the uptime is missing (in the Templar sheet) if you set it to 100% manually it works fine.
    • When you use Infallible Aether + MD you should not use more than one Minor Slayer, would be cool if this was also automatically neglected.

    Have you given any thought about someone using a Lightning Wall of elements and make use of 75 CP in ritual to boost damage vs. off balance targets. The question is who uses the Lightning staff on that. It's not that easy to come up with a way how to treat this..
    @Solinur Pact EU - PC (Solinur: Templar - Magicka DD, Moves-like-Günther: Sorcerer - Stamina DD, Kinara Sol: Templar - Stamina DD, )
    Addon Author
  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Alcast wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »
    Alcast wrote: »
    Just 2 weeks ago....I finally got my 2nd Moondancer Sharpened sword....that is like 9 months of straight raiding Maw of Lorkhaj......a lot........a lot of raids...mkay

    Good luck farming :trollface:


    I also do think magplars got the biggest hit this update....

    Yeah the problem for mag Templars is that they got the execute nerfed (approx 5% dmg loss) and they don't profit a lot from the new staff passives because they were played with a dual wield mainbar. Now it looks like they will just put jabs on the staff bar and the rest stays the same. A lightning staff would be the best because basically everything they do is aoe but with the TBS nerf they most likely have to run BSW so we have to see what uptimes are possible with a lightning staff.

    The buff to purifiying light is actually pretty good on the other side. Should bring back like 1-1.5k DPS.

    We were also thinking maybe sstaying with Dualwield so you can go 5x MD 5x Bsw 2x Grothgar. On the other hand you also could backbar MD proc but we know synergies are a **** to activate.
    BSW is approx 55% uptime on magplar with a DW setup, should not really change a lot if you go shock.

    Shockstaff is a must for templars as almost everything is AOE dmg.

    The question is, is the LIGHT ATTACK damage outdpsing the Dualwield setup? Most likely, also would allow us to do WAY more AoE dps with shockstaff and Spear DoT etc.

    You will always keep the moondancer dual wield + MSA setup. Leaving out the moondacer 5 piece makes a huge difference in terms of DPS. The only question is on which bar you put the jabs. On staff bar you deal less dmg than on DW bar, but gain much higher weave dmg. Going Lightning/Inferno backbar would make you loose the moondancer 5 piece, going Lightning dual wield makes you loose the fire wall and approx 19% weave dmg (engulfing + 8% from fire staff passive, since weaves are single target).
    In terms of monster sets you will most likely stay with Grothdarr. The advantage of Kena (max 1.5% more dmg) can be negated by having 30% more magicka during the exucute phase. Sustain on a Templar is already not the best and the difference of having below 20% magicka during execute and having above 80% is arround 3% overall dmg (assuming radiant opression bonus scales linear with magicka and is applied multiplicatively).

    Here is the result with 0% single target dmg and 50% moondancer uptime, so everything in favor of the dual staff setup:
    MSA Inferno mainbar/ MD DW Backbar: 51.772
    MSA Inferno Backbar/ 4 Aether Lightning mainbar: 51.669
    1 vs 2: +0,20%

    This would be the setup that profits the most from the staff passives, but loosing the moondancer 5 piece hurts, and dual wield is still superior to the staff passives.

    Since I dont have the Moondancer swords could you do me the favor and test the Moondacer DW setup, comparing inferno vs lightning mainbar once the EU chars are on PTS?
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  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Solinur wrote: »
    Two little issues:
    • When you copy in Julianos the 5 piece bonus is not updated right away as the uptime is missing (in the Templar sheet) if you set it to 100% manually it works fine.
    • When you use Infallible Aether + MD you should not use more than one Minor Slayer, would be cool if this was also automatically neglected.

    Have you given any thought about someone using a Lightning Wall of elements and make use of 75 CP in ritual to boost damage vs. off balance targets. The question is who uses the Lightning staff on that. It's not that easy to come up with a way how to treat this..

    The discussion of lightning vs fire is actually a lot more complicated then i can model it, because there are so many passives and random effects involved.
    The off balance thing is one example, then we have the fire wall dealing 20% more dmg vs burning targets, the use of the staff passives could be improved with an optimized skill layout, etc.
    I would use the spreadsheet to start with the basic sets and do testing concerning the staff types in the end.
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  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Solinur wrote: »
    Two little issues:
    • When you copy in Julianos the 5 piece bonus is not updated right away as the uptime is missing (in the Templar sheet) if you set it to 100% manually it works fine.
    • When you use Infallible Aether + MD you should not use more than one Minor Slayer, would be cool if this was also automatically neglected.

    Have you given any thought about someone using a Lightning Wall of elements and make use of 75 CP in ritual to boost damage vs. off balance targets. The question is who uses the Lightning staff on that. It's not that easy to come up with a way how to treat this..

    Oh and I fixed the 2 points above. You might need to make a new copy to update it for you.
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