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• [COMPLETE] PlayStation®4: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – July 15, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EDT (14:00 UTC)
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Homestead Theorycrafting & Feedback

  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
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    GilGalad wrote: »
    Alcast wrote: »
    Just 2 weeks ago....I finally got my 2nd Moondancer Sharpened sword....that is like 9 months of straight raiding Maw of Lorkhaj......a lot........a lot of raids...mkay

    Good luck farming :trollface:


    I also do think magplars got the biggest hit this update....

    Yeah the problem for mag Templars is that they got the execute nerfed (approx 5% dmg loss) and they don't profit a lot from the new staff passives because they were played with a dual wield mainbar. Now it looks like they will just put jabs on the staff bar and the rest stays the same. A lightning staff would be the best because basically everything they do is aoe but with the TBS nerf they most likely have to run BSW so we have to see what uptimes are possible with a lightning staff.

    The buff to purifiying light is actually pretty good on the other side. Should bring back like 1-1.5k DPS.
    Ugh pretty much what i predicted. Hate kena, especially now you can't put siphon and ele drain up together, is it even viable with just minor magicka steal and orbs? And ever since they changed animation priorities weaving is clunky af at the best of times making me think uptime won't be great either. Think i'll just take the dps loss tbh.
    Is the tl;dr regarding sets-
    DK 5 bsw 4 aether 2 kena/ groth 1 vma
    Sorc 5 bsw 4 moondancer 2 kena/llambris 1 vma
    Templar 5 bsw 5 moondancer 2 groth/kena 1 vma
    Or did i missread

    Yeah that's about right. There are some interesting alternative setups if you don't want to run Kena.
    DKs can also run with 5 Moondancer (3 jewels, 1 Body, Backbar), 5 BSW, 1 Kena, 1vMA frontbar. Even with the loss of 2% max magicka from undaunted this setup can outperform the 2 Kena setup if you reach higher uptimes on the buffs (Moondancer vs Kena).
    Templars and NBs will have the hardest time keeping BSW up long enough but you need less than 50% in order to loose the BIS title to Julianos. That means you have 4 seconds to proc it with a 20% chance on every fire dmg.
    While NBs could also go with scathing mage, templars can't because of the long execute phase.

    Actually seords mainbar is still the way to go. The only debate is whether to go lightning or fire back bar...im keeping fire...https://imgur.com/gallery/e6DDO
  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
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    GilGalad wrote: »
    Alcast wrote: »
    Just 2 weeks ago....I finally got my 2nd Moondancer Sharpened sword....that is like 9 months of straight raiding Maw of Lorkhaj......a lot........a lot of raids...mkay

    Good luck farming :trollface:


    I also do think magplars got the biggest hit this update....

    Yeah the problem for mag Templars is that they got the execute nerfed (approx 5% dmg loss) and they don't profit a lot from the new staff passives because they were played with a dual wield mainbar. Now it looks like they will just put jabs on the staff bar and the rest stays the same. A lightning staff would be the best because basically everything they do is aoe but with the TBS nerf they most likely have to run BSW so we have to see what uptimes are possible with a lightning staff.

    The buff to purifiying light is actually pretty good on the other side. Should bring back like 1-1.5k DPS.
    Ugh pretty much what i predicted. Hate kena, especially now you can't put siphon and ele drain up together, is it even viable with just minor magicka steal and orbs? And ever since they changed animation priorities weaving is clunky af at the best of times making me think uptime won't be great either. Think i'll just take the dps loss tbh.
    Is the tl;dr regarding sets-
    DK 5 bsw 4 aether 2 kena/ groth 1 vma
    Sorc 5 bsw 4 moondancer 2 kena/llambris 1 vma
    Templar 5 bsw 5 moondancer 2 groth/kena 1 vma
    Or did i missread

    Yeah that's about right. There are some interesting alternative setups if you don't want to run Kena.
    DKs can also run with 5 Moondancer (3 jewels, 1 Body, Backbar), 5 BSW, 1 Kena, 1vMA frontbar. Even with the loss of 2% max magicka from undaunted this setup can outperform the 2 Kena setup if you reach higher uptimes on the buffs (Moondancer vs Kena).
    Templars and NBs will have the hardest time keeping BSW up long enough but you need less than 50% in order to loose the BIS title to Julianos. That means you have 4 seconds to proc it with a 20% chance on every fire dmg.
    While NBs could also go with scathing mage, templars can't because of the long execute phase.

    Actually seords mainbar is still the way to go. The only debate is whether to go lightning or fire back bar...im keeping fire...https://imgur.com/gallery/e6DDO

    Thx for the screenshot!
    58% uptime on BSW is pretty good, actually more than I expected. To be honest I don't expect all Templar setups to differ a lot, but in the end with raid buffs staff weaving gets boosted more than DW weaving (engulfing, SPC, etc.). I have seen Sorc parses with 5k light attack DPS without raid buffs on the PTS, and you only have 2k in total. I hope that I can do proper testing this week with my own chars.
    Edited by GilGalad on January 15, 2017 3:18PM
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  • Panth141
    Panth141
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    Hi @GilGalad !

    Really nice work - it's great to see another ESO theorycrafting physicist ;)

    I have a couple of follow-up questions and suggestions, if that's okay:

    1) I can't see that you've accounted for the action of Thaumaturge CP on sets like Grothdarr - though I may just have not found it. It makes it hard to get a meaningful comparison between Kena & Groth, especially when they remain pretty close in terms of DPS contributions.

    2) It's definitely worth adding Minor Berserk into the calculations, as this has high uptime in end-game PvE from both Relentless (NBs) & Combat Prayer (Healers)

    3) Leading on from 2 (this is a bit of a personal request!) - I don't have IA on PC, so when you get a character copy could you try to find out the interaction between:

    Staff +8% passives; Minor Slayer; Minor Berserk; DW +5% passive

    Specifically whether they are all truly additive (which it seems is how you've treated them in your SUMPRODUCT, and which I expect them to be) or whether there is some unusual multiplicative mechanism here. (I have some feeling that it was once the case that the DW passive was multiplicative with Minor Berserk - but I could be wrong)

    I mainly ask this because additive bonuses here reduce the power of Minor Slayer and in turn reduces the power of IA vs Willpower - in fact, I have WP outperforming IA in my calculations if they are additive.

    4) Bonus test: are the above passives additive or multiplicative with execute bonuses? Given that the execute bonus typically fits into the base damage calculation pre-modifier, I would expect it to be multiplicative - but you never know with ZoS. I can test this myself on PTS, but it'd be nice to have a second person test, too!

    All in all, really nice work! I'd also done calculations with TBS for the changes to Minor & Major Force and reached the same conclusion, really - if TBS is working for you now, then it will still work for you next patch. Interestingly the Spell Crit bonus from BSW offsets some of the nerf to TBS, as the higher crit in BSW leads to a slight nerf when Major Force is active.
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  • Destruent
    Destruent
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    Panth141 wrote: »
    3) Leading on from 2 (this is a bit of a personal request!) - I don't have IA on PC, so when you get a character copy could you try to find out the interaction between:

    Staff +8% passives; Minor Slayer; Minor Berserk; DW +5% passive

    Specifically whether they are all truly additive (which it seems is how you've treated them in your SUMPRODUCT, and which I expect them to be) or whether there is some unusual multiplicative mechanism here. (I have some feeling that it was once the case that the DW passive was multiplicative with Minor Berserk - but I could be wrong)

    I mainly ask this because additive bonuses here reduce the power of Minor Slayer and in turn reduces the power of IA vs Willpower - in fact, I have WP outperforming IA in my calculations if they are additive.

    Iirc all "damage done" boni are additive to each other. so with minor berserk and DW you have 13% increased dmg. When using radiant destruction this increases to 33% with full magicka. This is still multiplicative to "damage received" from infallible aether or bonus damage from executes or the extra damage from jabs/sweeps for the nearest target.
    At least it worked that way when i tested it the last time :smiley:
    Noobplar
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
    anitajoneb17_ESO
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    I'm one of those 9 people who don't get it. Maybe I would if I tried harder. But there's something else I don't understand.
    Back when weapons ultis reached PTS, everyone was worried about how weak the destro ulti was (spreadsheets and calculations and everything as a proof). ZOS changed the duration to make it more bursty and people still said the ulti was weaker than meteor. Next thing we knew once it was on live : everybody acclaimed the destro ulti for being so OP. What happened then ?

    For those who may wonder what this has to do with the current topic : I'm generally wondering if there aren't any "hidden" thing in ZOS' calculations that invalidates - some of - our own, retro-engineered calculations ?
  • SirAndy
    SirAndy
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    Back when weapons ultis reached PTS, everyone was worried about how weak the destro ulti was (spreadsheets and calculations and everything as a proof). ZOS changed the duration to make it more bursty and people still said the ulti was weaker than meteor. Next thing we knew once it was on live : everybody acclaimed the destro ulti for being so OP. What happened then ?
    That's why it's called "theory-crafting" ...

    Because a lot of it should work in theory, when isolating the numbers and looking at them (somewhat out of context).

    A lot of times the theory will differ from the actual gameplay because in-game there are a lot of additional factors that can not (easily) be represented by a spreadsheet.
    shades.gif
    Edited by SirAndy on January 15, 2017 5:29PM
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  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
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    Panth141 wrote: »
    Hi @GilGalad !
    1) I can't see that you've accounted for the action of Thaumaturge CP on sets like Grothdarr - though I may just have not found it. It makes it hard to get a meaningful comparison between Kena & Groth, especially when they remain pretty close in terms of DPS contributions.

    It is not only affected by traumaturg, but the DK fire AOE passive (6%?), racial passives (dunmer 7%), etc. I just put a flat value of 1600 DPS in the field "Proc Set base DPS (no crits)". Highes tooltip I have seen was on a dunmer DK little over 2.9k. It can proc every 10 secs and ticks 6 times - so maximum DPS would be somewher around 1.8k DPS.
    In the templar and DK spreadsheets I used 1.6k DPS, in the sorcerer sheet its 1.7k DPS. Values can be adjusted to be more precise after testing on the PTS.
    Panth141 wrote: »
    2) It's definitely worth adding Minor Berserk into the calculations, as this has high uptime in end-game PvE from both Relentless (NBs) & Combat Prayer (Healers)

    Well I could easily add it to the calculation but it is only relevant if it is additive with some bonis. If it is multiplicative with the whole DPS it would be irrelevant when comparing two setups, since the uptimes will be similar.
    Panth141 wrote: »
    3) Leading on from 2 (this is a bit of a personal request!) - I don't have IA on PC, so when you get a character copy could you try to find out the interaction between:

    Staff +8% passives; Minor Slayer; Minor Berserk; DW +5% passive

    Specifically whether they are all truly additive (which it seems is how you've treated them in your SUMPRODUCT, and which I expect them to be) or whether there is some unusual multiplicative mechanism here. (I have some feeling that it was once the case that the DW passive was multiplicative with Minor Berserk - but I could be wrong)

    I mainly ask this because additive bonuses here reduce the power of Minor Slayer and in turn reduces the power of IA vs Willpower - in fact, I have WP outperforming IA in my calculations if they are additive.
    You are right that I treated them additively, what makes sense for the staff and DW passives since they will never be active at the same time, but will most likely be wrong with minor slayer. I will adjust the spreadsheet once I have the gear on the PTS to do some testings.
    It is not surprising that willpower could be outperforming IA in some situations, but running willpower block you from running 2 5-piece sets, therefore WP is kind of irrelevant.
    Panth141 wrote: »
    4) Bonus test: are the above passives additive or multiplicative with execute bonuses? Given that the execute bonus typically fits into the base damage calculation pre-modifier, I would expect it to be multiplicative - but you never know with ZoS. I can test this myself on PTS, but it'd be nice to have a second person test, too!

    I tested how the lightning passive acted on sweeps and it was a multiplicative increase of dmg by 7.98% so with rounding errors it looks like its multiplicative with the +140% on the neares target. I remember testing minor slayer some time ago and it was additive with the sweep bonus, therefore mostly useless for them.
    As I wrote above I will test the new passives, minor slayer and minor berserk and adjust the spreadsheets. In the end I wont expect a change for BIS gear because I cant think of any combination that is not running a set with minor slayer.
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  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
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    I'm one of those 9 people who don't get it. Maybe I would if I tried harder. But there's something else I don't understand.
    Back when weapons ultis reached PTS, everyone was worried about how weak the destro ulti was (spreadsheets and calculations and everything as a proof). ZOS changed the duration to make it more bursty and people still said the ulti was weaker than meteor. Next thing we knew once it was on live : everybody acclaimed the destro ulti for being so OP. What happened then ?

    For those who may wonder what this has to do with the current topic : I'm generally wondering if there aren't any "hidden" thing in ZOS' calculations that invalidates - some of - our own, retro-engineered calculations ?

    Tooltip values on my dunmer templar:

    Shooting star: 15993+5099*12 = 77181
    Fiery Rage: 8815*8*1,1 = 77572

    Fiery Rage costs 240 ultimate, Shooting Star 192-12n, with n: number of enemies hit. So Shooting Star costs at least 60 ultimate less while dealing the same dmg. The only difference is the radius and thats where the destro ulti gets used and is really powerfull. In fights with mostly single targets you are better off using meteor.
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  • Alcast
    Alcast
    Class Representative
    @GilGalad I will do some tests yes. i also do think Moondancer setup will be BiS still. Howevver other setups definitely come closer now.

    If we are wearing burning spellweave, then a fire staff is prolly the most optimal setup on the backbar.
    If we are not using burning spellweave, then a shockstaff might be better, also helps with off balancing enemies + easymode shock heavy attacks for insanse aoe dmg

    I only have 1 other setup in mind with Double Destro. Moondancer full on backbar to activate synergy (tho we all know activating synergies can be annoying...) and then use burning spellweave staff, that way we still can run a full monster set. Quesstion is more then how is the uptime of Burning spellweave.
    Edited by Alcast on January 15, 2017 6:58PM
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  • Destruent
    Destruent
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    Alcast wrote: »
    I only have 1 other setup in mind with Double Destro. Moondancer full on backbar to activate synergy (tho we all know activating synergies can be annoying...) and then use burning spellweave staff, that way we still can run a full monster set. Quesstion is more then how is the uptime of Burning spellweave.

    That setup sounds great imo, but getting that burning spellweave-staff will be annoying :(

    edit says: you would need a spellweave lightning-staff for sweeps and dots, but execute should be on moondancer bar...so no bsw-proccs during execute. Hm...kinda hard to decide :(
    Edited by Destruent on January 15, 2017 7:05PM
    Noobplar
  • Alcast
    Alcast
    Class Representative
    Destruent wrote: »
    Alcast wrote: »
    I only have 1 other setup in mind with Double Destro. Moondancer full on backbar to activate synergy (tho we all know activating synergies can be annoying...) and then use burning spellweave staff, that way we still can run a full monster set. Quesstion is more then how is the uptime of Burning spellweave.

    That setup sounds great imo, but getting that burning spellweave-staff will be annoying :(

    edit says: you would need a spellweave lightning-staff for sweeps and dots, but execute should be on moondancer bar...so no bsw-proccs during execute. Hm...kinda hard to decide :(

    hmmm good point..... shizzle dizzle
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  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
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    Alcast wrote: »
    @GilGalad I will do some tests yes. i also do think Moondancer setup will be BiS still. Howevver other setups definitely come closer now.

    If we are wearing burning spellweave, then a fire staff is prolly the most optimal setup on the backbar.
    If we are not using burning spellweave, then a shockstaff might be better, also helps with off balancing enemies + easymode shock heavy attacks for insanse aoe dmg

    I only have 1 other setup in mind with Double Destro. Moondancer full on backbar to activate synergy (tho we all know activating synergies can be annoying...) and then use burning spellweave staff, that way we still can run a full monster set. Quesstion is more then how is the uptime of Burning spellweave.

    I have the gear to run this double destro setup but the sunergy issues are horrible. Getting a synergy and barswapping makes the synergy prompt go away
  • Destruent
    Destruent
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    Alcast wrote: »
    @GilGalad I will do some tests yes. i also do think Moondancer setup will be BiS still. Howevver other setups definitely come closer now.

    If we are wearing burning spellweave, then a fire staff is prolly the most optimal setup on the backbar.
    If we are not using burning spellweave, then a shockstaff might be better, also helps with off balancing enemies + easymode shock heavy attacks for insanse aoe dmg

    I only have 1 other setup in mind with Double Destro. Moondancer full on backbar to activate synergy (tho we all know activating synergies can be annoying...) and then use burning spellweave staff, that way we still can run a full monster set. Quesstion is more then how is the uptime of Burning spellweave.

    I have the gear to run this double destro setup but the sunergy issues are horrible. Getting a synergy and barswapping makes the synergy prompt go away

    True...i remember, this was the main-reason for me to swap to dw-mainbar when using moondancer :s
    Noobplar
  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
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    From what im seeing lightning/DW will give you the highest parses, but fire/DW will give you the highest single target dps

    Will flame staff outperform DW for execute damage? If not, then is the only reason we slot flame staff to proc BSW? And if that's the case, does lightning staff/DW + another set possibly enter the equation or would the DPS loss from losing BSW be too high?

    Templar definitely seems to benefit the least from the destro changes. I feel we have too much AOE to not take advantage of the lightning staff buff, but I don't know how to incorporate it into a build with BSW (other than to just go double destro).
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on January 15, 2017 10:24PM
  • Solinur
    Solinur
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    GilGalad wrote: »
    Some fun facts in between:
    This thread is now online since 48 hours. Withing the first 24 hours the title was "Homestead Theorycrafting & Feedback" and it got 50 views and 0 replies. After changing the title to "9 out of 10 ESO players won't understand what's happening in here!!!" it got 1.8k views and 44 replies in 24 hours.

    So shall I change the title back now or to "9 out of 10 ESO developers won't understand what's happening in here!!!" in order to get a ZOS response?
    What do you think? :lol:

    Who nows :D. But I think threads that get some attention like this one will be read by the devs anyway.
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  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
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    From what im seeing lightning/DW will give you the highest parses, but fire/DW will give you the highest single target dps

    Will flame staff outperform DW for execute damage? If not, then is the only reason we slot flame staff to proc BSW? And if that's the case, does lightning staff/DW + another set possibly enter the equation or would the DPS loss from losing BSW be too high?

    Templar definitely seems to benefit the least from the destro changes. I feel we have too much AOE to not take advantage of the lightning staff buff, but I don't know how to incorporate it into a build with BSW (other than to just go double destro).

    Your execute should still be on he DW bar. The reason to use a flame staff is to increase BSW uptime as well as to medium weave. Losing BSW as a set is a high price to pay, however even if you do run a lightning staff you can still keep BSW and the uptime will be fine (provided you run grothdar).
  • Malamar1229
    Malamar1229
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    when you guys respond can you be dolls and not quote the entire OP....

    Also, i agree on loot tables. ive spent almost of all 1T farming for a sharp inferno bsw and is just stupid now how many sharp bows/daggers/swords I have for the medium ember set when I a magicka sorc.
    Edited by Malamar1229 on January 16, 2017 2:13AM
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  • CombatPrayer
    CombatPrayer
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    SirAndy wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »
    9 out of 10 ESO players won't understand what's happening in here!!!

    You're just a wee bit full of yourself, aren't you?
    rolleyes.gif

    I suspect he is talking about people who don't pay attention to any of this stuff which is about 9/10. They don't read this stuff. They don't care about this stuff. But they will wonder why things seemed to have changed.
  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
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    SirAndy wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »
    9 out of 10 ESO players won't understand what's happening in here!!!

    You're just a wee bit full of yourself, aren't you?
    rolleyes.gif

    I suspect he is talking about people who don't pay attention to any of this stuff which is about 9/10. They don't read this stuff. They don't care about this stuff. But they will wonder why things seemed to have changed.

    Actually the title is a reference to all these clickbait articles starting with 9 out of 10 can't solve this problem or similar stuff. That's why I apologize for the title in the fist paragraph. I thought it would be clear enough with three exclamation marks. No one would end a serious statement with more than one of them! :wink:
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  • TotallyNotVos
    TotallyNotVos
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    Even accounting for the broken evocation bug. My parses on the pts are significantly higher then live on my meta magicka sorcerer. Could that simply be because of the additional 39 cp?

    On the pts magicka sorc can hit the 50K single target range. I can't do it on live
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  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
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    Even accounting for the broken evocation bug. My parses on the pts are significantly higher then live on my meta magicka sorcerer. Could that simply be because of the additional 39 cp?

    On the pts magicka sorc can hit the 50K single target range. I can't do it on live

    39 CP make a huge difference! If anyone wants to compare DPS values with the live server she/he has to use 561 CP. 39 CP should increase your dmg by 5-10% depending on the class and setup.
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  • TotallyNotVos
    TotallyNotVos
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    GilGalad wrote: »
    Even accounting for the broken evocation bug. My parses on the pts are significantly higher then live on my meta magicka sorcerer. Could that simply be because of the additional 39 cp?

    On the pts magicka sorc can hit the 50K single target range. I can't do it on live

    39 CP make a huge difference! If anyone wants to compare DPS values with the live server she/he has to use 561 CP. 39 CP should increase your dmg by 5-10% depending on the class and setup.

    Yeah thats kind of the point i was making. It seems that alot of people are thinking dps is going to go down next update. Where i see it going up quite a bit.
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  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    GilGalad wrote: »
    Even accounting for the broken evocation bug. My parses on the pts are significantly higher then live on my meta magicka sorcerer. Could that simply be because of the additional 39 cp?

    On the pts magicka sorc can hit the 50K single target range. I can't do it on live

    39 CP make a huge difference! If anyone wants to compare DPS values with the live server she/he has to use 561 CP. 39 CP should increase your dmg by 5-10% depending on the class and setup.

    Yeah thats kind of the point i was making. It seems that alot of people are thinking dps is going to go down next update. Where i see it going up quite a bit.

    People are concerned about DPS going up or down relative to other classes (since that is what determines viability).
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on January 16, 2017 8:07AM
  • oibam
    oibam
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    Some sets do need a rework.

  • Taonnor
    Taonnor
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    I'm one of those 9 people who don't get it. Maybe I would if I tried harder. But there's something else I don't understand.
    Back when weapons ultis reached PTS, everyone was worried about how weak the destro ulti was (spreadsheets and calculations and everything as a proof). ZOS changed the duration to make it more bursty and people still said the ulti was weaker than meteor. Next thing we knew once it was on live : everybody acclaimed the destro ulti for being so OP. What happened then ?

    For those who may wonder what this has to do with the current topic : I'm generally wondering if there aren't any "hidden" thing in ZOS' calculations that invalidates - some of - our own, retro-engineered calculations ?

    It is a typical example between pve and pvp requirements of this game.

    The peoples they said the destro ulti was to weak where from pve. And there is the destro ulti really weaker than meteor in long term dps. But in pvp it was not really tested on pts, especially in combination with sets like vicious death and huge zergs. As the destro ulti went live it takes 2 weeks till the pvp peoples find out how strong the destro ulti is. And now the pvp players whine about the OP destro ulti, not the pve players they whined about the weak destro ulti.

    So for pve the destro ulti should be do as same dmg in end up with meteor. And in pvp the destro ulti should not do so high dmg to compare with meteor. How to balance this?!
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  • Panth141
    Panth141
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    Thanks for the response, @GilGalad - I appreciate it!
    GilGalad wrote: »
    Panth141 wrote: »
    1) I can't see that you've accounted for the action of Thaumaturge CP on sets like Grothdarr - though I may just have not found it. It makes it hard to get a meaningful comparison between Kena & Groth, especially when they remain pretty close in terms of DPS contributions.

    It is not only affected by traumaturg, but the DK fire AOE passive (6%?), racial passives (dunmer 7%), etc. I just put a flat value of 1600 DPS in the field "Proc Set base DPS (no crits)". Highes tooltip I have seen was on a dunmer DK little over 2.9k. It can proc every 10 secs and ticks 6 times - so maximum DPS would be somewher around 1.8k DPS.
    In the templar and DK spreadsheets I used 1.6k DPS, in the sorcerer sheet its 1.7k DPS. Values can be adjusted to be more precise after testing on the PTS.

    I largely agree with this - though it is worth noting that Grothdarr Tooltip (at least on PTS) is not affected by Thaum, whilst the actual damage is. I can easily get Groth to hit for 3260/tick in template gear - this still largely falls within your estimates, but I do wander what DPS it could still pull in end-game gear. Irrelevant - my error.
    GilGalad wrote: »
    Panth141 wrote: »
    2) It's definitely worth adding Minor Berserk into the calculations, as this has high uptime in end-game PvE from both Relentless (NBs) & Combat Prayer (Healers)

    Well I could easily add it to the calculation but it is only relevant if it is additive with some bonis. If it is multiplicative with the whole DPS it would be irrelevant when comparing two setups, since the uptimes will be similar.

    I've just done some testing and Minor Berserk is additive with:
    • Dunmer flame damage passive (7%)
    • Staff 8% passive
    • DW 5% passive

    Though I don't have Minor Slayer available to test. I'm happy to share my data, if you'd like!
    GilGalad wrote: »
    Panth141 wrote: »
    3) Leading on from 2 (this is a bit of a personal request!) - I don't have IA on PC, so when you get a character copy could you try to find out the interaction between:

    Staff +8% passives; Minor Slayer; Minor Berserk; DW +5% passive

    Specifically whether they are all truly additive (which it seems is how you've treated them in your SUMPRODUCT, and which I expect them to be) or whether there is some unusual multiplicative mechanism here. (I have some feeling that it was once the case that the DW passive was multiplicative with Minor Berserk - but I could be wrong)

    I mainly ask this because additive bonuses here reduce the power of Minor Slayer and in turn reduces the power of IA vs Willpower - in fact, I have WP outperforming IA in my calculations if they are additive.

    You are right that I treated them additively, what makes sense for the staff and DW passives since they will never be active at the same time, but will most likely be wrong with minor slayer. I will adjust the spreadsheet once I have the gear on the PTS to do some testings.
    It is not surprising that willpower could be outperforming IA in some situations, but running willpower block you from running 2 5-piece sets, therefore WP is kind of irrelevant.

    The reason I bring WP up is kind of to do with point 1 - if you're not dropping Grothdarr (or are using Kena, for example) then the only way to get another set piece is through your weapon - and most (if not all) will be using a staff, so the maximum will be a 4pc set. Now, the only way you could use that slot is if you have a sharpened IA/Moondancer staff - if you do then I absolutely agree that 3 IA/MD Jewellery + 1 IA/MD Staff > 3 WP + Random/vMA staff. However, for those who don't have a sharpened IA/MD staff, given the potential additivity of Minor Slayer with all the buffs mentioned above, I would hazard to guess that WP would offer more DPS.

    Using 1pc Kena and 5pc Moondancer may well be a different story, though!
    GilGalad wrote: »
    Panth141 wrote: »
    4) Bonus test: are the above passives additive or multiplicative with execute bonuses? Given that the execute bonus typically fits into the base damage calculation pre-modifier, I would expect it to be multiplicative - but you never know with ZoS. I can test this myself on PTS, but it'd be nice to have a second person test, too!

    I tested how the lightning passive acted on sweeps and it was a multiplicative increase of dmg by 7.98% so with rounding errors it looks like its multiplicative with the +140% on the neares target. I remember testing minor slayer some time ago and it was additive with the sweep bonus, therefore mostly useless for them.
    As I wrote above I will test the new passives, minor slayer and minor berserk and adjust the spreadsheets. In the end I wont expect a change for BIS gear because I cant think of any combination that is not running a set with minor slayer.

    Fair enough! Though as above - if the player doesn't have a sharpened IA/MD staff and is using a 2pc Monster Set, I can see WP being used over IA/MD for a slight DPS improvement.

    Edited by Panth141 on January 16, 2017 3:31PM
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  • Dark_Aether
    Dark_Aether
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    With a title like that, you must be Sheldon. You don't have to be insulting in your attempt to show how smart you are.

    Either way, "theory-crafters" were so wrong about destro ulti so test it in-game where you can see the actual numbers then let me know.
  • gard
    gard
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    GilGalad wrote: »
    I'm one of those 9 people who don't get it. Maybe I would if I tried harder. But there's something else I don't understand.
    Back when weapons ultis reached PTS, everyone was worried about how weak the destro ulti was (spreadsheets and calculations and everything as a proof). ZOS changed the duration to make it more bursty and people still said the ulti was weaker than meteor. Next thing we knew once it was on live : everybody acclaimed the destro ulti for being so OP. What happened then ?

    For those who may wonder what this has to do with the current topic : I'm generally wondering if there aren't any "hidden" thing in ZOS' calculations that invalidates - some of - our own, retro-engineered calculations ?

    Tooltip values on my dunmer templar:

    Shooting star: 15993+5099*12 = 77181
    Fiery Rage: 8815*8*1,1 = 77572

    Fiery Rage costs 240 ultimate, Shooting Star 192-12n, with n: number of enemies hit. So Shooting Star costs at least 60 ultimate less while dealing the same dmg. The only difference is the radius and thats where the destro ulti gets used and is really powerfull. In fights with mostly single targets you are better off using meteor.

    When does the bonus ulti on enemy hit from shooting star get applied?
    If I have shooting star on one bar, cast it, then swap bars before it lands do I still get the credit?

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