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PSA: On Multi-Role Hybrid Builds and the Dungeon Meta
HatchetHaro
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TL;DR: Don't play multi-role hybrid builds if you don't know what you are doing; you're just going to bring the team down.
EDIT: By "meta" I am not referring to build metas. Build whatever the heck you want, just pull your weight. The meta I'm talking about is role metas, the exact meta that is literally coded into the group finder: 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps.
As for hybrid builds, I'm talking about multi-role builds, but resource-hybrid builds are still applicable in here, especially if you're a dps, unless you're running Pelinal's and know what you are doing.
Putting this edit in since many people misinterpreted this post as an advocate for cookie-cutter "meta" builds. That will be a topic for another time.
You think you are so smart with your three-role hybrid build that can do everything. You think it is great and that you are performing really well with it. You insist on having 35 points into magicka, 20 into health and the rest into stamina and think that you are amazing at resources. You think you can tank properly just by having heavy armor. You wonder why no one else has thought of your build as well as why no one else is running it.
Today, I'd like to talk to you about the "I play what I want" mentality in this game, as well as why you are not the smartest person in the world for running your own "godmode" hybrid build.
1. It is not effective. I'm not talking about it being slightly less effective than the meta builds; I'm talking about it being absolutely useless other than the 5k single target dps that you are dealing, the tiny bit of healing that you are doing that is absolutely negligible in the face of a boss that can deal 2k dps, or the little bit of tankiness you have that simply makes you the last person to die in a group by a split second.
If you queue as a dps while running this build, all you are being is a horrible damage-dealer, and putting much more of a load on the group as a whole because you aren't doing your job properly, the other dps is required to deal twice the amount he should be doing, the tank has to survive and maintain taunt for twice the time, and the healer has to micromanage her HoTs and resources with twice the effort.
If you queue as a healer while running this build, all you do is spam Breath of Life and can't even get magicka back to cast Breath of Life again because you insist on having 2H on both bars (so you can run up to the enemy and whack them while waiting for your magicka to regen slowly, apparently).
If you queue as a tank while running this build, haha yeah, have fun actually tanking before your team dies off becuase you don't know what a taunt is.
With this build, you are being absolutely worthless.
2. The meta is there for a reason. You see those three roles you can queue as in the dungeon finder? You are not supposed to select all three of them. You are supposed to tick off only the ones you can do effectively right off the bat. It's not a player-created meta; it's literally coded into the game that an effective dungeon group requires 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 dps; not 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 dps, and 1 guy doing sweet FA.
Sometimes people stray from the meta and that's fine; you'll see 3 dps and 1 healer, or sometimes even just straight up 4 dps; that is completely fine because they can deal the damage that 3-4 dps can deal, and is still effective because they are still carrying their weight. They can completely cheese a vet dungeon and they can finish that dungeon in five minutes and then port out and back in to do it again.
You, on the other hand, on your ever-so-glorious hybrid build, are not. You are not carrying 1/3 of the weight in every role. You are doing much, much worse.
Sure thing, there are some hybrid builds that are viable. Healtanks are a thing in this game, so are dps+healer hybrids. Here's the deal, though: they can carry their weights in both roles, they are not bringing the team down in any way, and they are run by people who know exactly what they are doing. You don't even fit any of those criterias, so stand down.
You're not special. That build you have there has probably been done many times by many people before you even thought about it. They're not sticking with that build for a reason.
3. You don't "play what you want". I mean, sure, this game is marketed as such and you really can "play what you want", but that only applies to the quests and to solo content. Bring that crap into a dungeon, and you will bring the team down and will make everyone hate you for it. You're getting your arse kicked from the group if you refuse to carry your weight. That's just how it is. The meta defines the game, not your amazing multi-role build.
4. You don't just dismiss advice from the actual veterans of this game. Throw excuses around all you want, like "this game is play-what-you-want" or "but I'm not elite like you" or "I'm not good enough to follow the meta", but it does not change the fact that you still suck and you will continue to suck unless you actually take the advice the veterans give you into consideration. Pick a role and your main resource. Exchange the two-hander on your bars for staves or daggers. Slot some skills that are actually useful. Re-spec your attributes all into one resource. Check your rotations. Carry your weight.
You either get good at the game and actually make other people happy to have you on their group, or you keep on being stubborn and get kicked from half the dungeons you join.
Your choice.
Just don't *** about it when people complain.
Edited by HatchetHaro on January 1, 2017 3:07AM EDIT: By "meta" I am not referring to build metas. Build whatever the heck you want, just pull your weight. The meta I'm talking about is role metas, the exact meta that is literally coded into the group finder: 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps.
As for hybrid builds, I'm talking about multi-role builds, but resource-hybrid builds are still applicable in here, especially if you're a dps, unless you're running Pelinal's and know what you are doing.
Putting this edit in since many people misinterpreted this post as an advocate for cookie-cutter "meta" builds. That will be a topic for another time.
You think you are so smart with your three-role hybrid build that can do everything. You think it is great and that you are performing really well with it. You insist on having 35 points into magicka, 20 into health and the rest into stamina and think that you are amazing at resources. You think you can tank properly just by having heavy armor. You wonder why no one else has thought of your build as well as why no one else is running it.
Today, I'd like to talk to you about the "I play what I want" mentality in this game, as well as why you are not the smartest person in the world for running your own "godmode" hybrid build.
1. It is not effective. I'm not talking about it being slightly less effective than the meta builds; I'm talking about it being absolutely useless other than the 5k single target dps that you are dealing, the tiny bit of healing that you are doing that is absolutely negligible in the face of a boss that can deal 2k dps, or the little bit of tankiness you have that simply makes you the last person to die in a group by a split second.
If you queue as a dps while running this build, all you are being is a horrible damage-dealer, and putting much more of a load on the group as a whole because you aren't doing your job properly, the other dps is required to deal twice the amount he should be doing, the tank has to survive and maintain taunt for twice the time, and the healer has to micromanage her HoTs and resources with twice the effort.
If you queue as a healer while running this build, all you do is spam Breath of Life and can't even get magicka back to cast Breath of Life again because you insist on having 2H on both bars (so you can run up to the enemy and whack them while waiting for your magicka to regen slowly, apparently).
If you queue as a tank while running this build, haha yeah, have fun actually tanking before your team dies off becuase you don't know what a taunt is.
With this build, you are being absolutely worthless.
2. The meta is there for a reason. You see those three roles you can queue as in the dungeon finder? You are not supposed to select all three of them. You are supposed to tick off only the ones you can do effectively right off the bat. It's not a player-created meta; it's literally coded into the game that an effective dungeon group requires 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 dps; not 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 dps, and 1 guy doing sweet FA.
Sometimes people stray from the meta and that's fine; you'll see 3 dps and 1 healer, or sometimes even just straight up 4 dps; that is completely fine because they can deal the damage that 3-4 dps can deal, and is still effective because they are still carrying their weight. They can completely cheese a vet dungeon and they can finish that dungeon in five minutes and then port out and back in to do it again.
You, on the other hand, on your ever-so-glorious hybrid build, are not. You are not carrying 1/3 of the weight in every role. You are doing much, much worse.
Sure thing, there are some hybrid builds that are viable. Healtanks are a thing in this game, so are dps+healer hybrids. Here's the deal, though: they can carry their weights in both roles, they are not bringing the team down in any way, and they are run by people who know exactly what they are doing. You don't even fit any of those criterias, so stand down.
You're not special. That build you have there has probably been done many times by many people before you even thought about it. They're not sticking with that build for a reason.
3. You don't "play what you want". I mean, sure, this game is marketed as such and you really can "play what you want", but that only applies to the quests and to solo content. Bring that crap into a dungeon, and you will bring the team down and will make everyone hate you for it. You're getting your arse kicked from the group if you refuse to carry your weight. That's just how it is. The meta defines the game, not your amazing multi-role build.
4. You don't just dismiss advice from the actual veterans of this game. Throw excuses around all you want, like "this game is play-what-you-want" or "but I'm not elite like you" or "I'm not good enough to follow the meta", but it does not change the fact that you still suck and you will continue to suck unless you actually take the advice the veterans give you into consideration. Pick a role and your main resource. Exchange the two-hander on your bars for staves or daggers. Slot some skills that are actually useful. Re-spec your attributes all into one resource. Check your rotations. Carry your weight.
You either get good at the game and actually make other people happy to have you on their group, or you keep on being stubborn and get kicked from half the dungeons you join.
Your choice.
Just don't *** about it when people complain.
Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it
17 Argonians
6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained
17 Argonians
6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained
25
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FortheloveofKrist✭✭✭✭✭
✭Or you could just be patient and realize you are playing in a publicly accessible Group Finder and that...wait for it...the world doesn't revolve around you.
Apres moi, le deluge...of salt...
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HatchetHaro✭✭✭✭✭
✭FortheloveofKrist wrote: »Or you could just be patient and realize you are playing in a publicly accessible Group Finder and that...wait for it...the world doesn't revolve around you.
Apres moi, le deluge...of salt...
There is a story behind this, and it involves a full 5 hour debate in TS and a lot of salt. At least you're right about the salt. Problem-in-question is a guildie, btw, so you're not even right in the "Group Finder" department.Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it
17 Argonians
6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained8 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I agree. "Play as you want" only applies to Solo content.
Hybrids are pretty worthless in Group content.
Also, clever DPS with medium armor, and 19K health: Sorry Bro, you are not a Tank.
Of course I like steak. I'm a Nord, aren't I?
-Berj Stoneheart5 -
Wizzo91✭✭✭✭✭I agree.
There are so many players that have no clue what they are doing and pulling down the whole group. This happens 95% of the time when I am pugging. I'm usually not very elitist and am glad to help IF the players let me know before the dungeon that they have not done it in the past and need some guidance. This almost never happens. They just start wiping.
Sometimes even helping them is not an option because the group will be just too weak. Mostly it is not the tanks or the healers that are the problem but the DDs. Just a few examples from the last few weeks:
Heavy Armour Sorc spamming Heavy Attacks on a Lightning staff - nothing else.
Heavy Armour DK spamming WB, with Frost Staff on the backbar using destro ult.
Heavy Armour DK spamming burning embers and LA - nothing else.
I have also noticed a trend that the worst players have high CP or close to max. Many players with below 300 CP don't do the greatest DPS, but are willing to learn and actually communicate with you.
If you are forming a group always check if the players are willing to talk. If not kick them right away. I know that (in my case EU) there may be players, that don't understand English but that's not my problem. From my experience players that don't talk with you are the worst of the worst (even at max CP).
Like I said above, I am usually a nice person and let them know after the dungeon (if we manage) or before leaving that their build is ineffective and if they need help they should whisper me after or look at builds online. Usually I get negative feedback (if not total silence) when doing it.. (Heavy Armour Sorc:"Non of your business, it works for me and I never lose magicka".)
Like OP said, "Play-as-you-want" is not possible in group content. Solo content ist so laughable easy that you steamroll it naked with a restostaff and no skills (right after release the content actually was kind of challenging and you had to learn your class, no idea why they changed it).
But guys, do me a favor. Don't kick the new guys (with lower CP) that are willing to learn and communicate their inexperience before the dungeon! Usually those runs will be successful and you have done something good for the community!Edited by Wizzo91 on December 31, 2016 1:55PM[EU]
Wizzo - Stamina DK - 50 - DC
Wizzox - Magicka NB - 50 - DC
Vilest Wizz - Magicka Sorc - 50 - DC
Wiser Wizz - Magicka NB - 50 - DC
Wizzo X - Magicka NB - 50 - AD
In Rainbows - Stam Sorc - 50 - AD
Fake Plastic Tree - Stamplar - 50 - EP
6XX CP6 -
KingYogi415✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If you were as l33t at you come off, you could just solo the whole thing.
All this focus on other players seems like a waste of time...10 -
elantaura✭✭✭✭I dislike they marketed one way and catered for another
If you market play as you want it should have been viable, to o complete all content with inc hard modes while pulling your weight not pulling the group down. I'd love to have had a hybrid but... I wanted to get through content,
so except for my tank - its a min max life for me.PS4 EU 1200+ cp - I enjoy RP, Housing, PVE and PVP1 -
SunfireKnight86✭✭✭✭This is such a load of ***. The whole myth of this game isn't that "play how you want" is bad advice, it's that metas don't matter outside of speed trials and emperor hunting. (And even then a skilled player can fudge metas)
A templar *** all over this elitist crap. I can heal through any dungeon, vet or normal, while just using Breath of Life and still put out 20-25k DPS with minimal effort. I can throw puncture, a few buffs, and heavy stamina stacked armor sets on in 1 second with gear swap and seamlessly tick over to tank with a minimal loss of DPS and huge gain to survivability. I can stack my bar correctly, throw on my DPS gear (same as my heal gear OMG YOU DON'T NEED SPC TO WIN?!) , and out DPS half the people I play with.
Stop. Just stop. This whole, "I'm so cool, I know meta!" *** is basement dweller level elitism. It serves no purpose other than to alienate new players. It's a half ass way to lord the fact that you've played longer over people who just want to enjoy the game, and it has no place in the community. None. Zero.
If you don't like the way people play, don't PUG. And if you can only run PvP and vet dungeons with the bleeding edge meta, get gud.Edited by SunfireKnight86 on December 31, 2016 2:31PM22 -
Hallothiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This. This why I am very loathe to even try dungeons.
Have said many times before that the main game does nothing to prepare the average player for dungeons. Never played an MMO before this one so didn't even know about 'roles' - and you can't get through the game as just a healer or tank so how does one learn? And having to respec can be costly.6 -
HatchetHaro✭✭✭✭✭
✭SunfireKnight86 wrote: »This is such a load of ***. The whole myth of this game isn't that "play how you want" is bad advice, it's that metas don't matter outside of speed trials and emperor hunting. (And even then a skilled player can fudge metas)
A templar *** all over this elitist crap. I can heal through any dungeon, vet or normal, while just using Breath of Life and still put out 20-25k DPS with minimal effort. I can throw puncture, a few buffs, and heavy stamina stacked armor sets on in 1 second with gear swap and seamlessly tick over to tank with a minimal loss of DPS and huge gain to survivability. I can stack my bar correctly, throw on my DPS gear back on (same as my heal gear OMG YOU DON'T NEED SPC TO WIN?!) , and out DPS half the people I play with.
Stop. Just stop. This whole, "I'm so cool, I know meta!" *** is basement dweller level elitism. It serves no purpose other than to alienate new players. It's a half ass way to lord the fact that you've played longer over people who just want to enjoy the game, and it has no place in the community. None. Zero.
If you don't like the way people play, don't PUG. And if you can only run PvP and vet dungeons with the bleeding edge meta, get gud.
Of bloody course you can slot a burst heal and still do damage, but that's not the point. Guess what? So can I. I can put out 30k dps while maintaining a taunt on a boss and using Vigor to keep my teammates alive. Hurr dee durr. I can also literally press two keys and seamlessly swap to an endgame tanking build that brings buffs to the team like no tomorrow. Your example is invalid.
Sure thing, gear swap is a thing, but I'm not even talking about gear swap. I'm not even talking about people who know what they are doing. If you know what you are doing, whoop dee doo; do what you want since you can carry your weight!
Thing is, you are completely missing the point of my post. I am talking about the people who can't even do jack *** with their amazing hybrid builds. Again, the meta is there for a reason. If you're not even remotely good at anything pertaining to your role you should definitely stop what you're doing and stick with the meta until you know what you are doing. This "basement dweller level elitism" is tried and tested to be effective and foolproof, and being different does not mean that you're being useful. If you're useful, good, go ahead and be different all you want, just make sure you're carrying your weight. If you're not useful, well, you're not even close to the meta, because the meta makes sure that everyone is useful.
Another thing is that if they want to enjoy the game, then they shouldn't do dungeons, since it would simply just hinder the rest of the group's enjoyment of the game. Last I checked, 3 > 1. That 1 is going to be kicked if he insists on being a detriment to the team, and he can't do anything about it.
So, you stop. If you're so good, go ahead and solo vet dungeons, do it all by yourself; you don't need a team, after all.Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it
17 Argonians
6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained7 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Wait so my hybrid that allows me to tank/heal/ and 15k+ single target dps is garbage, allowing 3 full speced dps to do their thing. Dang I should go meta.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA5 -
HatchetHaro✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wait so my hybrid that allows me to tank/heal/ and 15k+ single target dps is garbage, allowing 3 full speced dps to do their thing. Dang I should go meta.HatchetHaro wrote: »Sure thing, there are some hybrid builds that are viable. Healtanks are a thing in this game, so are dps+healer hybrids. Here's the deal, though: they can carry their weights in both roles, they are not bringing the team down in any way, and they are run by people who know exactly what they are doing.
Read. You are not the target of this post.
Edited by HatchetHaro on December 31, 2016 2:45PMBest Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it
17 Argonians
6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained5 -
Agobi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thank you for your opinion OP......I'm going to go ahead and ignore it though
Have a nice day
Edited by Agobi on December 31, 2016 5:57PM6 -
Pallio✭✭✭✭✭
✭Some of this issue is that the game is so easy to solo levels from 1-50 doing whatever and wearing whatever. Group/Trials content is completely different game, as is PvP....3 -
SunfireKnight86✭✭✭✭HatchetHaro wrote: »SunfireKnight86 wrote: »This is such a load of ***. The whole myth of this game isn't that "play how you want" is bad advice, it's that metas don't matter outside of speed trials and emperor hunting. (And even then a skilled player can fudge metas)
A templar *** all over this elitist crap. I can heal through any dungeon, vet or normal, while just using Breath of Life and still put out 20-25k DPS with minimal effort. I can throw puncture, a few buffs, and heavy stamina stacked armor sets on in 1 second with gear swap and seamlessly tick over to tank with a minimal loss of DPS and huge gain to survivability. I can stack my bar correctly, throw on my DPS gear back on (same as my heal gear OMG YOU DON'T NEED SPC TO WIN?!) , and out DPS half the people I play with.
Stop. Just stop. This whole, "I'm so cool, I know meta!" *** is basement dweller level elitism. It serves no purpose other than to alienate new players. It's a half ass way to lord the fact that you've played longer over people who just want to enjoy the game, and it has no place in the community. None. Zero.
If you don't like the way people play, don't PUG. And if you can only run PvP and vet dungeons with the bleeding edge meta, get gud.
Of bloody course you can slot a burst heal and still do damage, but that's not the point. Guess what? So can I. I can put out 30k dps while maintaining a taunt on a boss and using Vigor to keep my teammates alive. Hurr dee durr. I can also literally press two keys and seamlessly swap to an endgame tanking build that brings buffs to the team like no tomorrow. Your example is invalid.
Sure thing, gear swap is a thing, but I'm not even talking about gear swap. I'm not even talking about people who know what they are doing. If you know what you are doing, whoop dee doo; do what you want since you can carry your weight!
Thing is, you are completely missing the point of my post. I am talking about the people who can't even do jack *** with their amazing hybrid builds. Again, the meta is there for a reason. If you're not even remotely good at anything pertaining to your role you should definitely stop what you're doing and stick with the meta until you know what you are doing. This "basement dweller level elitism" is tried and tested to be effective and foolproof, and being different does not mean that you're being useful. If you're useful, good, go ahead and be different all you want, just make sure you're carrying your weight. If you're not useful, well, you're not even close to the meta, because the meta makes sure that everyone is useful.
Another thing is that if they want to enjoy the game, then they shouldn't do dungeons, since it would simply just hinder the rest of the group's enjoyment of the game. Last I checked, 3 > 1. That 1 is going to be kicked if he insists on being a detriment to the team, and he can't do anything about it.
So, you stop. If you're so good, go ahead and solo vet dungeons, do it all by yourself; you don't need a team, after all.
Then you aren't talking about builds, you're talking about skill and knowledge. And you aren't even really talking about skill, you're crying because you PUG and don't get to breeze through a dungeon in record time every time.
Get over it. Not me, not the next guy or gal, nobody in this whole game is here to cater to you. Nobody. If you don't like it, play with your mommy, or daddy, or whoever it is that usually wipes your sniveling nose. Any expectations you have for other people are self-prescribed. They can do dungeons if they want. Some of them can be taught, some of them can't. If you don't like it, you are the one who needs to not PUG, not them. By putting this toxic garbage out in the community, all you're doing is making sure new people don't get to play with your toy. That doesn't make you "good", it makes you a pissbaby. You are not the *** fun police.Edited by SunfireKnight86 on December 31, 2016 2:52PM7 -
HatchetHaro✭✭✭✭✭
✭SunfireKnight86 wrote: »Then you aren't talking about builds, you're talking about skills. And you aren't even really talking about skill, you're crying because you PUG and don't get to breeze through a dungeon in record time every time.
Get over it. Not me, not the next guy or gal, nobody in this whole game is here to cater to you. Nobody. If you don't like it, play with your mommy, or daddy, or whoever it is that usually wipes your sniveling nose. Any expectations you have for other people are self-prescribed. They can do dungeons if they want. Some of them can be tiaght, some of them can't. If you don't like it, you are the one who needs to not PUG, not them.By putting this toxic garbage out in the community, all you're doing is making sure new people don't get to play with your toy. That doesn't make you "good", it makes you a pissbaby. You are not the *** fun police.
Once more, you prove yourself to be incapable of understanding the point I'm trying to get at.
I'll put it in baby words.
You like yum yum. That guy comes in and yucks your yum. Your yum is yucked. Don't be that guy.
The thing that inspired me to actually make this post wasn't even a PUG group. It is the result of an argument with a particularly stubborn guildie; that is it.
Here's the deal: I still reserve the right to play PUGs, and I still reserve the right to vote to kick players from PUGs. You're defending the guy being kicked. I find that hilarious and quite narrow-minded.
I'm not requiring that guy to cater to me; I'm requiring that guy to carry his weight, big difference; and if he refuses to do so, he's gonna get kicked, no excuses.
So if you want to go with your multi-role build, go ahead, I'm completely fine with it, but if it brings the rest of the team down along with me, then I will find problem with it. I'm not asking them to stop pugging, I'm asking them to stop bringing the team down.
So, again, stop. You're doing nothing by twisting my words and misinterpreting the message I'm trying to get across.
Basically, from what you said, you're completely fine with joining a PUG group for vCoA2 with 3 cp 10s who don't even remotely know how to play their roles and refuse to do anything about it. In which case, I pity you. Have fun!Edited by HatchetHaro on December 31, 2016 2:58PMBest Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it
17 Argonians
6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained2 -
Taylor_MB✭✭✭✭✭
✭I dunno man, my hybrid tank seems to work pretty well solo'ing the last few million of Skoria's HP with no platforms cause the group failed terribly at the HM dps check.
Edited by Taylor_MB on December 31, 2016 3:06PMPvP Defensive Set Comparison
Firestarter MagDK 1vX - build and gamplay!
LagPlar Ranged Lag Proof(ish) Magplar - build and gamplay!
ShadowGaurd MagBlade Group Utility Tank - build and gamplay!
Oncoming Storm No-CP 11.6k Ward MagSorc - build and gamplay!
My YouTube Chanel2 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'm sorry you had a bad experience OP, I can literally see the salt crystallizing though.
I select all three roles on my magicka templar because I have three sets of gear and three sets of skill bars set to Wykkid's. I'm glad you awknowledge that heal tanks are a thing, my SPC tank works wonderfully for vet dungeons (would never bring him to a vet trial).
The only thing is, you catch more flies with a spoonful of honey than with a barrel of vinegar. You are angry at people who you perceive as wastes of space (and in purely statistical terms, you're dead on), but remember the human element. If you hate how someone runs, don't run content with that person. I gave up giving advice to those that didn't want it in high school wrestling.4 -
Pallio✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hybrid as in a good shield/heal on a full dps build, or hybrid as in dps in tank gear?1 -
HatchetHaro✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You've missed the point of my post, read again.I dunno man, my hybrid tank seems to work pretty well solo'ing the last few million of Skoria's HP with no platforms cause the group failed terribly at the HM dps check.
Also, good tanks can solo anything that's not a dps race, but by slowly whittling away at the boss's health in your tank build you've probably wasted a lot of time; better off to rez group and try again, unless you've done that already and it has proven to be fruitless, in which case, good on you, that feeling of tense anxiety and exhilaration must have been amazing.
DPS in tank gear. Or in my case, DPS in tank gear and completely mismatched skills and attributes.Hybrid as in a good shield/heal on a full dps build, or hybrid as in dps in tank gear?
I can't stress how much I agree with you, but I'm a walking salt mine and ranting about it feels amazing.DocFrost72 wrote: »I'm sorry you had a bad experience OP, I can literally see the salt crystallizing though.
I select all three roles on my magicka templar because I have three sets of gear and three sets of skill bars set to Wykkid's. I'm glad you awknowledge that heal tanks are a thing, my SPC tank works wonderfully for vet dungeons (would never bring him to a vet trial).
The only thing is, you catch more flies with a spoonful of honey than with a barrel of vinegar. You are angry at people who you perceive as wastes of space (and in purely statistical terms, you're dead on), but remember the human element. If you hate how someone runs, don't run content with that person. I gave up giving advice to those that didn't want it in high school wrestling.
I can tell you that in that particular incident, I've actually fed the guy a full barrel of honey, was never salty with him. It's only here that I'm salty.Edited by HatchetHaro on December 31, 2016 3:19PMBest Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it
17 Argonians
6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained2 -
SunfireKnight86✭✭✭✭I think the only person missing the point if your post is you. Let me put it in terms you'll understand.
Waaaaaaah! Waaaah! I PUG'd and didn't finish the dungeon! Waaah!6 -
HatchetHaro✭✭✭✭✭
✭SunfireKnight86 wrote: »I think the only person missing the point if your post is you. Let me put it in terms you'll understand.
Waaaaaaah! Waaaah! I PUG'd and didn't finish the dungeon! Waaah!
The incident didn't even involve a PUG. Grow up and get out.Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it
17 Argonians
6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained2 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭HatchetHaro wrote: »TL;DR: Don't play multi-role hybrid builds if you don't know what you are doing; you're just going to bring the team down.
You think you are so smart with your three-role hybrid build that can do everything. You think it is great and that you are performing really well with it. You insist on having 35 points into magicka, 20 into health and the rest into stamina and think that you are amazing at resources. You think you can tank properly just by having heavy armor. You wonder why no one else has thought of your build as well as why no one else is running it.
Today, I'd like to talk to you about the "I play what I want" mentality in this game, as well as why you are not the smartest person in the world for running your own "godmode" hybrid build.
1. It is not effective. I'm not talking about it being slightly less effective than the meta builds; I'm talking about it being absolutely useless other than the 5k single target dps that you are dealing, the tiny bit of healing that you are doing that is absolutely negligible in the face of a boss that can deal 2k dps, or the little bit of tankiness you have that simply makes you the last person to die in a group by a split second.
If you queue as a dps while running this build, all you are being is a horrible damage-dealer, and putting much more of a load on the group as a whole because you aren't doing your job properly, the other dps is required to deal twice the amount he should be doing, the tank has to survive and maintain taunt for twice the time, and the healer has to micromanage her HoTs and resources with twice the effort.
If you queue as a healer while running this build, all you do is spam Breath of Life and can't even get magicka back to cast Breath of Life again because you insist on having 2H on both bars (so you can run up to the enemy and whack them while waiting for your magicka to regen slowly, apparently).
If you queue as a tank while running this build, haha yeah, have fun actually tanking before your team dies off becuase you don't know what a taunt is.
With this build, you are being absolutely worthless.
2. The meta is there for a reason. You see those three roles you can queue as in the dungeon finder? You are not supposed to select all three of them. You are supposed to tick off only the ones you can do effectively right off the bat. It's not a player-created meta; it's literally coded into the game that an effective dungeon group requires 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 dps; not 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 dps, and 1 guy doing sweet FA.
Sometimes people stray from the meta and that's fine; you'll see 3 dps and 1 healer, or sometimes even just straight up 4 dps; that is completely fine because they can deal the damage that 3-4 dps can deal, and is still effective because they are still carrying their weight. They can completely cheese a vet dungeon and they can finish that dungeon in five minutes and then port out and back in to do it again.
You, on the other hand, on your ever-so-glorious hybrid build, are not. You are not carrying 1/3 of the weight in every role. You are doing much, much worse.
Sure thing, there are some hybrid builds that are viable. Healtanks are a thing in this game, so are dps+healer hybrids. Here's the deal, though: they can carry their weights in both roles, they are not bringing the team down in any way, and they are run by people who know exactly what they are doing. You don't even fit any of those criterias, so stand down.
You're not special. That build you have there has probably been done many times by many people before you even thought about it. They're not sticking with that build for a reason.
3. You don't "play what you want". I mean, sure, this game is marketed as such and you really can "play what you want", but that only applies to the quests and to solo content. Bring that crap into a dungeon, and you will bring the team down and will make everyone hate you for it. You're getting your arse kicked from the group if you refuse to carry your weight. That's just how it is. The meta defines the game, not your amazing multi-role build.
4. You don't just dismiss advice from the actual veterans of this game. Throw excuses around all you want, like "this game is play-what-you-want" or "but I'm not elite like you" or "I'm not good enough to follow the meta", but it does not change the fact that you still suck and you will continue to suck unless you actually take the advice the veterans give you into consideration. Pick a role and your main resource. Exchange the two-hander on your bars for staves or daggers. Slot some skills that are actually useful. Re-spec your attributes all into one resource. Check your rotations. Carry your weight.
You either get good at the game and actually make other people happy to have you on their group, or you keep on being stubborn and get kicked from half the dungeons you join.
Your choice.
Just don't *** about it when people complain.
and this is why ESO fails miserably in design. The only role that is required for groups is DPS. the others are inisgnifcant enough that you can just replace that role for a dps.0 -
DPShiro✭✭✭✭✭
✭HatchetHaro wrote: »TL;DR: Don't play multi-role hybrid builds if you don't know what you are doing; you're just going to bring the team down.
You think you are so smart with your three-role hybrid build that can do everything. You think it is great and that you are performing really well with it. You insist on having 35 points into magicka, 20 into health and the rest into stamina and think that you are amazing at resources. You think you can tank properly just by having heavy armor. You wonder why no one else has thought of your build as well as why no one else is running it.
Today, I'd like to talk to you about the "I play what I want" mentality in this game, as well as why you are not the smartest person in the world for running your own "godmode" hybrid build.
1. It is not effective. I'm not talking about it being slightly less effective than the meta builds; I'm talking about it being absolutely useless other than the 5k single target dps that you are dealing, the tiny bit of healing that you are doing that is absolutely negligible in the face of a boss that can deal 2k dps, or the little bit of tankiness you have that simply makes you the last person to die in a group by a split second.
If you queue as a dps while running this build, all you are being is a horrible damage-dealer, and putting much more of a load on the group as a whole because you aren't doing your job properly, the other dps is required to deal twice the amount he should be doing, the tank has to survive and maintain taunt for twice the time, and the healer has to micromanage her HoTs and resources with twice the effort.
If you queue as a healer while running this build, all you do is spam Breath of Life and can't even get magicka back to cast Breath of Life again because you insist on having 2H on both bars (so you can run up to the enemy and whack them while waiting for your magicka to regen slowly, apparently).
If you queue as a tank while running this build, haha yeah, have fun actually tanking before your team dies off becuase you don't know what a taunt is.
With this build, you are being absolutely worthless.
2. The meta is there for a reason. You see those three roles you can queue as in the dungeon finder? You are not supposed to select all three of them. You are supposed to tick off only the ones you can do effectively right off the bat. It's not a player-created meta; it's literally coded into the game that an effective dungeon group requires 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 dps; not 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 dps, and 1 guy doing sweet FA.
Sometimes people stray from the meta and that's fine; you'll see 3 dps and 1 healer, or sometimes even just straight up 4 dps; that is completely fine because they can deal the damage that 3-4 dps can deal, and is still effective because they are still carrying their weight. They can completely cheese a vet dungeon and they can finish that dungeon in five minutes and then port out and back in to do it again.
You, on the other hand, on your ever-so-glorious hybrid build, are not. You are not carrying 1/3 of the weight in every role. You are doing much, much worse.
Sure thing, there are some hybrid builds that are viable. Healtanks are a thing in this game, so are dps+healer hybrids. Here's the deal, though: they can carry their weights in both roles, they are not bringing the team down in any way, and they are run by people who know exactly what they are doing. You don't even fit any of those criterias, so stand down.
You're not special. That build you have there has probably been done many times by many people before you even thought about it. They're not sticking with that build for a reason.
3. You don't "play what you want". I mean, sure, this game is marketed as such and you really can "play what you want", but that only applies to the quests and to solo content. Bring that crap into a dungeon, and you will bring the team down and will make everyone hate you for it. You're getting your arse kicked from the group if you refuse to carry your weight. That's just how it is. The meta defines the game, not your amazing multi-role build.
4. You don't just dismiss advice from the actual veterans of this game. Throw excuses around all you want, like "this game is play-what-you-want" or "but I'm not elite like you" or "I'm not good enough to follow the meta", but it does not change the fact that you still suck and you will continue to suck unless you actually take the advice the veterans give you into consideration. Pick a role and your main resource. Exchange the two-hander on your bars for staves or daggers. Slot some skills that are actually useful. Re-spec your attributes all into one resource. Check your rotations. Carry your weight.
You either get good at the game and actually make other people happy to have you on their group, or you keep on being stubborn and get kicked from half the dungeons you join.
Your choice.
Just don't *** about it when people complain.
Well said^~ Gryphon Heart ~
~ Immortal Redeemer ~
~ Grand Master Crafter ~
~ Master Angler ~
~ Former Emperor ~0 -
Pallio✭✭✭✭✭
✭Is it really elitist to expect atleast average performance from people who sign up to do a specific job? Like if a plumber came to your house to fix your toilet, would it be ok for him to really be a roofer with a few tools a plumber would use, but, no idea how to actually fix your toilet? Would you and he just YouTube the problem and figure it out together?6 -
JkahrrRadnar✭✭✭Question: You do realize that that many people play ESO simply to have fun? And when they don't answer or tell you to sod off it's not to spite you or because they think their character is better than yours but because they honestly don't. care. what some random dude on the internet has to say about how they spend their sunday afternoon?
I don't know the context of your rant, but if, at it's base, this is another 'Noobs are ruining my experience, I wish everyone that's not as awesome as me was just banned from the game' thread then please just... find something else to do.Edited by JkahrrRadnar on December 31, 2016 4:30PM6 -
Pallio✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think the point is that play-your-way is fine have fun, RP if you want, who cares, unless you want to do something in a GROUP, then you have to perform a specific role, the most effective way you can. Otherwise, the group has to make up for your short comings in your specific role.
Another example:
It is one thing to just wonder around Walmart looking at everything until you find whatever is on your list, if it takes you 8hrs to find everything, I don't care it has no impact on my life at all. This is more like handing you list to strangers and expecting them to walk you to each item on your list.3 -
itsfatbass✭✭✭✭✭HatchetHaro wrote: »TL;DR: Don't play multi-role hybrid builds if you don't know what you are doing; you're just going to bring the team down.
You think you are so smart with your three-role hybrid build that can do everything. You think it is great and that you are performing really well with it. You insist on having 35 points into magicka, 20 into health and the rest into stamina and think that you are amazing at resources. You think you can tank properly just by having heavy armor. You wonder why no one else has thought of your build as well as why no one else is running it.
Today, I'd like to talk to you about the "I play what I want" mentality in this game, as well as why you are not the smartest person in the world for running your own "godmode" hybrid build.
1. It is not effective. I'm not talking about it being slightly less effective than the meta builds; I'm talking about it being absolutely useless other than the 5k single target dps that you are dealing, the tiny bit of healing that you are doing that is absolutely negligible in the face of a boss that can deal 2k dps, or the little bit of tankiness you have that simply makes you the last person to die in a group by a split second.
If you queue as a dps while running this build, all you are being is a horrible damage-dealer, and putting much more of a load on the group as a whole because you aren't doing your job properly, the other dps is required to deal twice the amount he should be doing, the tank has to survive and maintain taunt for twice the time, and the healer has to micromanage her HoTs and resources with twice the effort.
If you queue as a healer while running this build, all you do is spam Breath of Life and can't even get magicka back to cast Breath of Life again because you insist on having 2H on both bars (so you can run up to the enemy and whack them while waiting for your magicka to regen slowly, apparently).
If you queue as a tank while running this build, haha yeah, have fun actually tanking before your team dies off becuase you don't know what a taunt is.
With this build, you are being absolutely worthless.
2. The meta is there for a reason. You see those three roles you can queue as in the dungeon finder? You are not supposed to select all three of them. You are supposed to tick off only the ones you can do effectively right off the bat. It's not a player-created meta; it's literally coded into the game that an effective dungeon group requires 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 dps; not 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 dps, and 1 guy doing sweet FA.
Sometimes people stray from the meta and that's fine; you'll see 3 dps and 1 healer, or sometimes even just straight up 4 dps; that is completely fine because they can deal the damage that 3-4 dps can deal, and is still effective because they are still carrying their weight. They can completely cheese a vet dungeon and they can finish that dungeon in five minutes and then port out and back in to do it again.
You, on the other hand, on your ever-so-glorious hybrid build, are not. You are not carrying 1/3 of the weight in every role. You are doing much, much worse.
Sure thing, there are some hybrid builds that are viable. Healtanks are a thing in this game, so are dps+healer hybrids. Here's the deal, though: they can carry their weights in both roles, they are not bringing the team down in any way, and they are run by people who know exactly what they are doing. You don't even fit any of those criterias, so stand down.
You're not special. That build you have there has probably been done many times by many people before you even thought about it. They're not sticking with that build for a reason.
3. You don't "play what you want". I mean, sure, this game is marketed as such and you really can "play what you want", but that only applies to the quests and to solo content. Bring that crap into a dungeon, and you will bring the team down and will make everyone hate you for it. You're getting your arse kicked from the group if you refuse to carry your weight. That's just how it is. The meta defines the game, not your amazing multi-role build.
4. You don't just dismiss advice from the actual veterans of this game. Throw excuses around all you want, like "this game is play-what-you-want" or "but I'm not elite like you" or "I'm not good enough to follow the meta", but it does not change the fact that you still suck and you will continue to suck unless you actually take the advice the veterans give you into consideration. Pick a role and your main resource. Exchange the two-hander on your bars for staves or daggers. Slot some skills that are actually useful. Re-spec your attributes all into one resource. Check your rotations. Carry your weight.
You either get good at the game and actually make other people happy to have you on their group, or you keep on being stubborn and get kicked from half the dungeons you join.
Your choice.
Just don't *** about it when people complain.
The world does NOT revolve around you. If your playing experiences are really THIS bad, then get your own 4-man groups to run stuff with you, or just stop playing. Good god...~PC/NA~ Magblade, Tankanist, Healplar, Stamcro, Oakensorc, Healden, Tanknight ~PLUR~3 -
thedude33✭✭✭✭✭HatchetHaro wrote: »
2. The meta is there for a reason.
.
Back in the day, meta (what an annoying word) was called the flavor of the month build. Meaning someone would come up with an idea/build that seemed to work well, and the sheeple all flocked to it. They would all claim that this build was the only acceptable way to succeed. If you didn't buy in you were ostracized.
The ironic thing? The current meta is all the rage, until someone comes up with something new and improved. The sheeple all switch to the 'new' meta. Anyone showing up to a dungeon using the old meta, is mocked then kicked. Where as a couple weeks earlier, he would have been embraced.
Such a paradox
1v1 Win/Loss Record in PvP.
1 Wins - 392 Losses (guy was AFK)7 -
Pallio✭✭✭✭✭
✭Meta now is whatever can be exploited best in PVP, PvE is more closely still flavor of the month type builds.0
