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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508927/

PSA: On Multi-Role Hybrid Builds and the Dungeon Meta

  • thedude33
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    I think the only person missing the point if your post is you. Let me put it in terms you'll understand.


    Waaaaaaah! Waaaah! I PUG'd and didn't finish the dungeon in less than 5 minutes It took us almost 7 minutes cause some pug slowed us down Waaah!

    I think we get the point just fine

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  • vyndral13preub18_ESO
    vyndral13preub18_ESO
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    thedude33 wrote: »



    2. The meta is there for a reason.

    .

    Back in the day, meta (what an annoying word) was called the flavor of the month build. Meaning someone would come up with an idea/build that seemed to work well, and the sheeple all flocked to it. They would all claim that this build was the only acceptable way to succeed. If you didn't buy in you were ostracized.

    The ironic thing? The current meta is all the rage, until someone comes up with something new and improved. The sheeple all switch to the 'new' meta. Anyone showing up to a dungeon using the old meta, is mocked then kicked. Where as a couple weeks earlier, he would have been embraced.

    Such a paradox :s

    When the meta hits the point that it is Meta for a DPS to show up with a taunt and do less DPS then the Healer. Then i will look back on some of my dungeon runs and be in awe of how forward thinking some DPS were.
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    Wait... are you saying that my believing I'm a tank doesn't alone make me a tank? ?

    Why can't we extend this thought process into other parts of our society?
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  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
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    Hallothiel wrote: »
    This. This why I am very loathe to even try dungeons.

    Have said many times before that the main game does nothing to prepare the average player for dungeons. Never played an MMO before this one so didn't even know about 'roles' - and you can't get through the game as just a healer or tank so how does one learn? And having to respec can be costly.

    I would say, unless you utterly despise other players on a fundamental level, dungeons are worth doing. There is also a lot of freedom in creating viable dungeon builds. I know, you come on the boards and people are saying, "get with the meta." Actually being handcuffed to the meta is only an issue if you're a bad or inexperienced player. Starting with elements of the meta and then branching out as you learn what you need to do is a viable approach.

    You're right that dungeons are an entirely different kind of content from normal gameplay. That's kinda the point. MMOs tend to break their content into overworld content (questing, grinding mobs, whatever), group content (dungeons mostly, but there are a lot of permutations), and PvP. All three of these things could practically be different games that only come together long enough to share assets and some design elements.

    The best way to learn about dungeons is to find newbie friendly guilds that run them. That's how I started learning to run dungeons six or seven years ago. Again, it was a game that didn't put the dungeons front and center, and didn't explain how they worked or what they did. Once you do understand how the different roles work you start seeing them everywhere.

    That Tank/DPS/Healer setup is something you'll find in D&D, you'll find it in single player games like Dragon Age. Sometimes you'll also get dedicated buff/debuff classes, like the Bard, but the trinity extends way beyond MMOs.

    It also doesn't help that the intricacies of the roles change from game to game. In most MMOs I've played, the tank's job is not to deal with adds at all, just keep the boss's attention, and taunt the adds, while the DPS cleans them up... and that's the other thing about this where the meta can go right out the window.

    If your team is working together, and knows each others builds, you really can mix up how your party handles dungeons. Your tank can double as crowd control, or that can go to a DPS, or the healer. Your buff management usually comes from the tank, but the way the game's designed, it could be from another player. Your DPSs can burn adds, or your healer can lock them up while the tank keeps them occupied.

    Some bosses mix things up, and force you to change how you deal with a given situation, but at the core, dungeons, are a team effort. If you've got a good team, of players you enjoy hanging out with, they're the entire reason this genre continues to exist. If you're queuing in the group finder, you could get lucky, or you could end up with non-functional randos.

    Ultimately, though, find some players, and try the dungeons. They are a lot of fun.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • AlwaysOnFire
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    everybody, stop playing the game the way you want to play it and instead just cut to the chase! Give all your stuff to ME! That's the end result of superior play after all, so why beat around the bush?
  • nimander99
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    Hum, I always thought of hybrid as a dual role, i.e Tank/Healer.

    For me I have all points in Magic, 5 heavy 1 Medium 1 Light armor.

    Mainly I tank, but my resource pool is mana so I'll swap staff maybe once a fight just for some quick regen, but I'm already regening mana at 1632/sec during combat and I heal myself via jabs... But I have always considered myself hybrid because I've also spot healed on point in rough patches.

    But interesting read, maybe I'm more of a burden on my groups than I thought.
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  • TequilaFire
    TequilaFire
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    This new meta of bashing on other players is an epidemic it would seem.
    It is a game play with other friends of similar mind and stop random pugging.
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  • timidobserver
    timidobserver
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    I think the OP is right for newer players, but experienced players can pull off hybrids to some extent. For example, I've grouped with some pretty good heal tanks and dps healers. I will say that I've never experienced a good tank/dps.

    That said, I don't think people should play a hybrid role unless they are making up for someone else that is under-performing or they can't find someone to fill the role they need.
    Edited by timidobserver on December 31, 2016 6:09PM
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  • vyndral13preub18_ESO
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    I think the OP is right for newer players, but experienced players can pull off hybrids to some extent. For example, I've grouped with some pretty good heal tanks and dps healers. I will say that I've never experienced a good tank/dps.

    That said, I don't think people should play a hybrid role unless they are making up for someone else that is under-performing or they can't find someone to fill the role they need.

    It mostly annoys me when they dont tell you. Oh yeah by the way im a healer dps and will be looking to speed us up a little bit so look after your health some. Oh yeah by the way im tanking with a two hander on both bars i taunt fine but i am a little extra squishy so keep an eye on me for the big hits.
  • Hallothiel
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    @starkerealm

    Thanks for the reply! I know part of it is due to fear / unknown as used to think would never pvp but now am addicted (but not saying any good, mind you).

    It's the role thing - I think a lot of people who come to this from rpgs are going to have absolutely no idea about them - you mentioned Dragon Age - have played through all of them as what is known here as dps/dd and never given the other roles much thought.

    Some sort of introduction to how to play dungeon roles would be incredibly helpful & useful to idiots like me. I appreciate your suggestion of guilds but again on ps4 can be hard to find. But I do hope to try dungeons in the coming year! :)
    PS4 / EU

    It’s all utterly ridiculous.
  • skiptomyluau
    skiptomyluau
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    I have fun with my tank/dps build all stam 7 of heavy with vamp kiss
  • DocFrost72
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    I love how people think they know the meta based on things they read in the forums therefore all combinations of skills and abilities they haven't used are automatically terrible.

    While absolutely a factor, I can't quite find a use for equilibrium in a dungeon. Great blood port device for cyro though. Just need a molehill!
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  • Brutusmax1mus
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    Then you aren't talking about builds, you're talking about skills. And you aren't even really talking about skill, you're crying because you PUG and don't get to breeze through a dungeon in record time every time.

    Get over it. Not me, not the next guy or gal, nobody in this whole game is here to cater to you. Nobody. If you don't like it, play with your mommy, or daddy, or whoever it is that usually wipes your sniveling nose. Any expectations you have for other people are self-prescribed. They can do dungeons if they want. Some of them can be tiaght, some of them can't. If you don't like it, you are the one who needs to not PUG, not them.By putting this toxic garbage out in the community, all you're doing is making sure new people don't get to play with your toy. That doesn't make you "good", it makes you a pissbaby. You are not the *** fun police.

    Once more, you prove yourself to be incapable of understanding the point I'm trying to get at.

    I'll put it in baby words.

    You like yum yum. That guy comes in and yucks your yum. Your yum is yucked. Don't be that guy.

    The thing that inspired me to actually make this post wasn't even a PUG group. It is the result of an argument with a particularly stubborn guildie; that is it.

    Here's the deal: I still reserve the right to play PUGs, and I still reserve the right to vote to kick players from PUGs. You're defending the guy being kicked. I find that hilarious and quite narrow-minded.

    I'm not requiring that guy to cater to me; I'm requiring that guy to carry his weight, big difference; and if he refuses to do so, he's gonna get kicked, no excuses.

    So if you want to go with your multi-role build, go ahead, I'm completely fine with it, but if it brings the rest of the team down along with me, then I will find problem with it. I'm not asking them to stop pugging, I'm asking them to stop bringing the team down.

    So, again, stop. You're doing nothing by twisting my words and misinterpreting the message I'm trying to get across.

    Basically, from what you said, you're completely fine with joining a PUG group for vCoA2 with 3 cp 10s who don't even remotely know how to play their roles and refuse to do anything about it. In which case, I pity you. Have fun!

    Sounds like you're trying to yuck more yum than any of the people causing yuck to your yum do. The only way to play 4 man dungeons and have fun at this point is through non meta builds. I can literally solo any vet 4 man that can be solod. When 3 others join me it's boring and not fun. Non meta is fun for such easy content. You should try and put yourself in an uncomfortable position. It might take longer, but they didn't mean less effective always.
  • DragonBound
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    TL;DR: Don't play multi-role hybrid builds if you don't know what you are doing; you're just going to bring the team down.

    You think you are so smart with your three-role hybrid build that can do everything. You think it is great and that you are performing really well with it. You insist on having 35 points into magicka, 20 into health and the rest into stamina and think that you are amazing at resources. You think you can tank properly just by having heavy armor. You wonder why no one else has thought of your build as well as why no one else is running it.

    Today, I'd like to talk to you about the "I play what I want" mentality in this game, as well as why you are not the smartest person in the world for running your own "godmode" hybrid build.


    1. It is not effective. I'm not talking about it being slightly less effective than the meta builds; I'm talking about it being absolutely useless other than the 5k single target dps that you are dealing, the tiny bit of healing that you are doing that is absolutely negligible in the face of a boss that can deal 2k dps, or the little bit of tankiness you have that simply makes you the last person to die in a group by a split second.

    If you queue as a dps while running this build, all you are being is a horrible damage-dealer, and putting much more of a load on the group as a whole because you aren't doing your job properly, the other dps is required to deal twice the amount he should be doing, the tank has to survive and maintain taunt for twice the time, and the healer has to micromanage her HoTs and resources with twice the effort.

    If you queue as a healer while running this build, all you do is spam Breath of Life and can't even get magicka back to cast Breath of Life again because you insist on having 2H on both bars (so you can run up to the enemy and whack them while waiting for your magicka to regen slowly, apparently).

    If you queue as a tank while running this build, haha yeah, have fun actually tanking before your team dies off becuase you don't know what a taunt is.
    With this build, you are being absolutely worthless.


    2. The meta is there for a reason. You see those three roles you can queue as in the dungeon finder? You are not supposed to select all three of them. You are supposed to tick off only the ones you can do effectively right off the bat. It's not a player-created meta; it's literally coded into the game that an effective dungeon group requires 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 dps; not 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 dps, and 1 guy doing sweet FA.

    Sometimes people stray from the meta and that's fine; you'll see 3 dps and 1 healer, or sometimes even just straight up 4 dps; that is completely fine because they can deal the damage that 3-4 dps can deal, and is still effective because they are still carrying their weight. They can completely cheese a vet dungeon and they can finish that dungeon in five minutes and then port out and back in to do it again.

    You, on the other hand, on your ever-so-glorious hybrid build, are not. You are not carrying 1/3 of the weight in every role. You are doing much, much worse.

    Sure thing, there are some hybrid builds that are viable. Healtanks are a thing in this game, so are dps+healer hybrids. Here's the deal, though: they can carry their weights in both roles, they are not bringing the team down in any way, and they are run by people who know exactly what they are doing. You don't even fit any of those criterias, so stand down.

    You're not special. That build you have there has probably been done many times by many people before you even thought about it. They're not sticking with that build for a reason.


    3. You don't "play what you want". I mean, sure, this game is marketed as such and you really can "play what you want", but that only applies to the quests and to solo content. Bring that crap into a dungeon, and you will bring the team down and will make everyone hate you for it. You're getting your arse kicked from the group if you refuse to carry your weight. That's just how it is. The meta defines the game, not your amazing multi-role build.


    4. You don't just dismiss advice from the actual veterans of this game. Throw excuses around all you want, like "this game is play-what-you-want" or "but I'm not elite like you" or "I'm not good enough to follow the meta", but it does not change the fact that you still suck and you will continue to suck unless you actually take the advice the veterans give you into consideration. Pick a role and your main resource. Exchange the two-hander on your bars for staves or daggers. Slot some skills that are actually useful. Re-spec your attributes all into one resource. Check your rotations. Carry your weight.

    You either get good at the game and actually make other people happy to have you on their group, or you keep on being stubborn and get kicked from half the dungeons you join.

    Your choice.

    Just don't *** about it when people complain.

    I do not agree with how you handled this though you could of made this much shorter and expressed it in a nicer tone, it is not like your constantly running into these hybrids your probably confusing roleplayers with people who just enjoy hybrids, also anyone who played hybrids in other mmorpgs know there has never been a god mode for them but there was a place for them in those mmorpgs because of the content.

    So do not generalize, it has nothing to do with god mode it has to do with the fact many of us like a battlemage or some other hybrid style because we like variety it has nothing to do with wanting to be op. In otherwords stop being so closed minded about why people like hybrid characters. I do agree though in this game they are not good, and they drag the team down, and if you want to do group content then you need to contribute in some way besides looking good.
    Edited by DragonBound on December 31, 2016 8:06PM
  • Doctordarkspawn
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    Completely agree. I play a templar magicka tank with group support, and I dont try to do all three rolls at once. The people saying the world dont revolve around you are missing the point and contributing to the problem.
    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!

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    NA-PC Tank player only.
  • acw37162
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    Someone really needed a snickers.
  • Phinix1
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    This Khajiit alchemist, adorned only in his noble and majestic [Pink Frilled Wedding Dress], gleefully sneaks up to the boss with potions in hand (nothing else mind you), attempting to slip a masterfully crafted [Potion of Happiness] into his pockets, because that is how this one rolls, as they say.

    Nevermind the absence of pockets on said daedric beasty. This one finds a way you see. This one ALWAYS find a way. Yet this one is dumbfounded when the ungrateful boss pounds his luxurious mane quite unceremoniously into the ground, dear reader, INTO THE GROUND!

    Why? Why should this be? This one was only "playing how he wants." :(
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  • Glurin
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    Pallio wrote: »
    Is it really elitist to expect atleast average performance from people who sign up to do a specific job?

    If by "average performance" you mean cookie cutter glass cannon with slightly less than perfect rotations, then yes, it is. If, on the other hand you simply mean getting the job done without too much fuss even though it may have taken a little longer than an experienced meta sheep trial team, then no, it isn't.

    That's the problem with elitists. They don't realize that their minimal expectations of other people are well beyond what is reasonable.
    "The man who learns only what others know is as ignorant as if he learns nothing. The treasures of knowledge are the most rare, and guarded the most harshly."
  • Glurin
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    I think the OP is right for newer players, but experienced players can pull off hybrids to some extent. For example, I've grouped with some pretty good heal tanks and dps healers. I will say that I've never experienced a good tank/dps.

    Imagine what they could do if ZoS adjusted the stats so that the difference between hybrids and pure builds wasn't quite so dramatic. ;)
    "The man who learns only what others know is as ignorant as if he learns nothing. The treasures of knowledge are the most rare, and guarded the most harshly."
  • Doctordarkspawn
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    Glurin wrote: »
    Pallio wrote: »
    Is it really elitist to expect atleast average performance from people who sign up to do a specific job?

    If by "average performance" you mean cookie cutter glass cannon with slightly less than perfect rotations, then yes, it is. If, on the other hand you simply mean getting the job done without too much fuss even though it may have taken a little longer than an experienced meta sheep trial team, then no, it isn't.

    That's the problem with elitists. They don't realize that their minimal expectations of other people are well beyond what is reasonable.

    Blame the games design. Blame this game for not delivering on the 'play how you want' structure in endgame content.

    As someone who's had to hold up this elitist flag, I wish it had.
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    NA-PC Tank player only.
  • KingYogi415
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    thedude33 wrote: »



    2. The meta is there for a reason.

    .

    Back in the day, meta (what an annoying word) was called the flavor of the month build. Meaning someone would come up with an idea/build that seemed to work well, and the sheeple all flocked to it. They would all claim that this build was the only acceptable way to succeed. If you didn't buy in you were ostracized.

    The ironic thing? The current meta is all the rage, until someone comes up with something new and improved. The sheeple all switch to the 'new' meta. Anyone showing up to a dungeon using the old meta, is mocked then kicked. Where as a couple weeks earlier, he would have been embraced.

    Such a paradox :s

    Odd how casuals try to turn this word into a bad thing.

    META: Most Effective Tactic Available.

    The important ones never change. And it's the easiest way to spot a "play your own way" pve carebear.

    Stam dps: duel wield/bow
    Magic dps: destro/destro destro/duel wield
    Healer: resto/destro resto/duel wield

    Cheers!
    Edited by KingYogi415 on January 1, 2017 9:39AM
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  • Glurin
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    thedude33 wrote: »



    2. The meta is there for a reason.

    .

    Back in the day, meta (what an annoying word) was called the flavor of the month build. Meaning someone would come up with an idea/build that seemed to work well, and the sheeple all flocked to it. They would all claim that this build was the only acceptable way to succeed. If you didn't buy in you were ostracized.

    The ironic thing? The current meta is all the rage, until someone comes up with something new and improved. The sheeple all switch to the 'new' meta. Anyone showing up to a dungeon using the old meta, is mocked then kicked. Where as a couple weeks earlier, he would have been embraced.

    Such a paradox :s

    Odd how causuls try to turn this word into a bad thing.

    META: Most Effective tactic available.

    The important ones never change. And it's the easiest way to spot a "play your own way" pve carebear.

    Stam dps: duel wield/bow
    Magic dps: destro/destro destro/duel wield
    Healer: resto/destro resto/duel wield

    Cheers!

    "The important ones never change."

    Until they do. B)

    You're not exactly proving thedude wrong here.
    Edited by Glurin on January 1, 2017 1:44AM
    "The man who learns only what others know is as ignorant as if he learns nothing. The treasures of knowledge are the most rare, and guarded the most harshly."
  • Savos_Saren
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    I'm pretty sure that @HatchetHaro is specifically referring to people running vet trials. (I hope he's only referring to that.) Yes, the meta will help a raid complete a trial with the highest possible score... but to discount people theorycrafting and trying new builds would be ridiculous. That's how the meta comes to exist, afterall. Theorycrafting.

    However, if someone is running a hybrid build that's not even close to the meta- I won't kick them from a group. (unless they really, really suck) You can "play as you want" with 99% of this game. So, do so and enjoy it. I'm damn sure not wearing Tava's on my tank... but I'm also not going to run a vet trial.

    The meta will, as it always does, change. Don't get chained down by it.
    Want to enjoy the game more? Try both PvP (crybabies) and PvE (carebears). You'll get a better perspective on everyone's opinion.

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  • Iselin
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    Thing is... dual role (for stamina types) or even triple (for magicka types) in regular and vet dungeons ARE indeed feasible but it's not something for the noob, the under-CP'd, the under-skilled or the under-geared.

    My Stamsorc has trained all of heavy, medium, DW, Bow, 1HD+S and has enough good heavy and medium sets to switch from a 35K DPS 7/7 medium to a 5/2 heavy/medium 29K health tank who uses both taunts, razor caltrops and shatering prison to hold aggro and control adds efficiently. As a tank I use Suppression Field and Aggressive horn for my ultimates. As a DPS I just switch those for Flawless Dawnbreaker and Ice Comet. It's not hard but it's an endgame kind of thing.

    Templars can easily do all 3 roles with the right gear and trained skill lines. I don't bother with mine and just do DPS or heals with quick skill and equipment changes but I could gear her up for tanking as well.
  • WhiteMage
    WhiteMage
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    Play-the-way-you-want disappeared with soft caps. It'd be nice to get both of them back.
    The generally amicable yet sporadically salty magplar that may or may not have 1vXed you in Sotha Sil. Who knows?
  • brandonv516
    brandonv516
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    Meta is whatever guys with popular YouTube channels say it is. Right?

    I go my own way. I have fun, don't care what other people think, and virtually never use voice chat to hear the whiners.

    Never been kicked from a PUG so I must be doing something right.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    jaburns wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure that @HatchetHaro is specifically referring to people running vet trials. (I hope he's only referring to that.) Yes, the meta will help a raid complete a trial with the highest possible score... but to discount people theorycrafting and trying new builds would be ridiculous. That's how the meta comes to exist, afterall. Theorycrafting.

    However, if someone is running a hybrid build that's not even close to the meta- I won't kick them from a group. (unless they really, really suck) You can "play as you want" with 99% of this game. So, do so and enjoy it. I'm damn sure not wearing Tava's on my tank... but I'm also not going to run a vet trial.

    The meta will, as it always does, change. Don't get chained down by it.

    Actually referring to people running dungeons on a Magplar with points into health and stamina, full heavy armor and 2H on both bars. Yeah, that.

    Also by "meta" I'm not talking about build metas; I'm talking about role metas, and that pretty much remains the same most of the time: 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 dps. Literally built right into the group finder. I'll just edit that into my post since most people don't seem to be able to grasp that.
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