PvP'ers did not ask for Proc Set crit nerf - what do PvE'ers suggest?

Taylor_MB · December 2016

We offered a huge array of suggestions, most of which people explicitly requested be worked it into battle spirit because this reaction was anticipated, blanket proc crit nerf was not one of them. With the exception of Malubeth, virtually no one has problems with utility proc sets (5pc or 2pc), we only wanted a change to unavoidable instant damage proc sets and the ability to stack 3 of these together. Here are some of the simpler solutions that got thrown around that would only affect proc stacks and address the 6 or so over performing sets (apologies for lack of credit):

1) Impen reduces proc set damage
2) Global cooldown (inside battle spirit)
3) Reduces %chance on specific problem sets to legitimately make them a programmed random occurrence

This (proposed) change is very very far from what PvP'ers wanted, we don't want to hurt PvE with PvP balances, we understand they are different systems with shared attributes and most of us enjoy our time PvE'ing. This whole PvP vs PvE is ridiculous, everyone wants a balanced game for the whole game.

We presented an array of suggestions (there were many more very good suggestions, but ultimately too time consuming or complicated for ZOS to consider) that would have minimal influence on PvE. Instead of the plethora of useless complaint threads, lets hear your suggestions and present a semi united and constructive response to ZOS! So what can be done instead of ZOS's proposed "fix"?

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Discussing/arguing about weather this will even effect PvE as much as people claim is irrelevant, this proposed change is so far down peoples list of desirable potential fixes (was not even on my list) it is not even worth discussing its implications (unless it hits PTS, then we can panic).

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Proc sets (and the ability to stack them) are an undeniable problem in PvP in their current incarnation, the status quo is not a sustainable option.

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EDIT: What is with all the terrible polls people are making? The options don't even begin to cover all the possible responses to the questions they are asking and most don't even have an "other" option.

Chres · December 2016

"This (proposed) change is very very far from what PvP'ers wanted, we don't want to hurt PvE with PvP balances..."

Who said that procc sets are balanced in PvE?

User_Name · December 2016

I think the answer is that the proc damage set fixes are intended for PVE more than PVP.

Rev Rielle · December 2016

There's always more to it though, and they've clearly thought about more holistically than any of us do. It's always easy on the outside looking in.

DPShiro · December 2016

Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.

Taylor_MB · December 2016

Chres wrote: »

"This (proposed) change is very very far from what PvP'ers wanted, we don't want to hurt PvE with PvP balances..."

Who said that procc sets are balanced in PvE?

Was not saying they are balanced in PvE, more that most (assuming) PvP'ers see balancing in PvP is more important then lowering PvE dps numbers by 5-8% or whatever the estimates are. If removing crit from proc sets is an effective way to balance PvE I'm happy for that, but it is not enough for PvP.

Enslaved · December 2016

Taylor_MB wrote: »

1) Impen reduces proc set damage

This was also what I stand for, it would not ruin any PvE application of proc sets, and PvP would be much more balanced.
5% per piece of impen gear would suffice, so one would be able to reduce proc set damage by 35-40%.
Why Zos decided to remove crit from proc sets instead is beyond me.

On the other hand, we will still have a plethora of completely useless traits, with his majesty Prosperous to lead us to the utter depths of sheer lunacy in the any gear grinding aspect of the game. vMA - prosperous and training. AP crates- prosperous and training. Dungeons - prosperous and training. Undaunted chests - prosperous and training. Yet we still get staves from sets with weapon damage, and similar bs.

I am not sure what Zos is doing to improve this, but I would bet it is nothing much.

Yes, we will get housing - but not storage both PvP and PvE players alike rooted for.
We also got con crates that a vast majority of players were strongly against.
Now we get a solution for proc sets that only made ppl mad.

I must be stupid af to hope for better stuff in the future.

psychotic13 · December 2016

Just delete viper and leave everything else as it is, simples.

Dubhliam · December 2016

Yes they did.
And the nerf is exactly what we need.

Too bad it also has a negative effect on PvE DPS, but in the end I don't think it is that big of a deal.

DschiPeunt · December 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

Yes they did.
And the nerf is exactly what we need.

Too bad it also has a negative effect on PvE DPS, but in the end I don't think it is that big of a deal.

There is absolutely no need to nerf proc sets for PvE. And what I expect is, that a lot of people will be wearing 2 pieces Molag Kena again, after the proc set nerf. So, it is a big deal, since sustain issue will become more frequent again.

nordsavage · December 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

Yes they did.
And the nerf is exactly what we need.

Too bad it also has a negative effect on PvE DPS, but in the end I don't think it is that big of a deal.

Do you really go into PvP with a crit build? I bet not. Nobody does because of Impen and Resistant. You will still get one shotted by proc stacks. If you think removing crit from things like undaunted helms is a good idea then you do not understand how many class and racial passives, abilities and buffs are tied to it. This change completely misses the mark.

GilGalad · December 2016

Cutting the proc tooltips by 50% would have the same impact on PVE as removing crits but a much bigger impact on PVP without removing a game mechanic.

Other solutions:
Add base crit resistance to battlespirit (they want to reduce burst dmg - that's how you do it)
Turn some procs like viper into dots (there are almost no proc dots)
Turn procs into debuffs (e.g. Tremor Scale into a armor and spellres debuffs since its a tank set)

These are all easy solutions that effectively address the problem cause by maybe 5-8 sets without ruining them for PVE.

SJD_Phoenix · December 2016

Chres wrote: »

"This (proposed) change is very very far from what PvP'ers wanted, we don't want to hurt PvE with PvP balances..."

Who said that procc sets are balanced in PvE?

The issue are the sets over performing not under performing.

In pve why would you complain about an over performing set? Do you pride yourself over terrible dps?

DschiPeunt · December 2016

SJD_Phoenix wrote: »

Chres wrote: »

"This (proposed) change is very very far from what PvP'ers wanted, we don't want to hurt PvE with PvP balances..."

Who said that procc sets are balanced in PvE?

The issue are the sets over performing not under performing.

In pve why would you complain about an over performing set? Do you pride yourself over terrible dps?

I just looked up a single target fight (manticora) of mine, where I used Grothdarr. The set did 3407 DPS, which was 7.19% of the total DPS. How would anyone consider this as "over performing"?

FloppyTouch · December 2016

I don't think that the crit nerf is big enough I would like to see a reduce damage nerf with an increase to the cooldown time they can proc

leepalmer95 · December 2016

DschiPeunt wrote: »

SJD_Phoenix wrote: »

Chres wrote: »

"This (proposed) change is very very far from what PvP'ers wanted, we don't want to hurt PvE with PvP balances..."

Who said that procc sets are balanced in PvE?

The issue are the sets over performing not under performing.

In pve why would you complain about an over performing set? Do you pride yourself over terrible dps?

I just looked up a single target fight (manticora) of mine, where I used Grothdarr. The set did 3407 DPS, which was 7.19% of the total DPS. How would anyone consider this as "over performing"?

Because your looking at your dps on an aoe proc set as a single target damage/

Also 3.4k dps which is 7.19% of your damage? How much do you think this will fall with the change like 3%?

You'll lose 3% dps... oh no!

GilGalad · December 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

SJD_Phoenix wrote: »

Chres wrote: »

"This (proposed) change is very very far from what PvP'ers wanted, we don't want to hurt PvE with PvP balances..."

Who said that procc sets are balanced in PvE?

The issue are the sets over performing not under performing.

In pve why would you complain about an over performing set? Do you pride yourself over terrible dps?

I just looked up a single target fight (manticora) of mine, where I used Grothdarr. The set did 3407 DPS, which was 7.19% of the total DPS. How would anyone consider this as "over performing"?

Because your looking at your dps on an aoe proc set as a single target damage/

Also 3.4k dps which is 7.19% of your damage? How much do you think this will fall with the change like 3%?

You'll lose 3% dps... oh no!

With the set doing only 3% dmg it will fall behind Molag Kena and no one wants the Kena meta back.

Writing stuff like "You'll lose 3% dps... oh no!" is missing the whole point of this discussion. It is about removing a core mechanic (being able to crit) from some important sets. Many builds and abilities make use of it (nightmothers gaze, TBS, crit surge, ...) and its nerfing many sets that are already underperforming. Most PVE players would be fine if they nerf some of the overperforming sets a little bit to bring them in line with others.

In addition it will most likely NOT adress the problems caused by proc sets in PVP. It's like trying to cure cancer with painkillers. It might reduce the problem, but it won't remove its origin.

SodanTok · December 2016

DschiPeunt wrote: »

SJD_Phoenix wrote: »

Chres wrote: »

"This (proposed) change is very very far from what PvP'ers wanted, we don't want to hurt PvE with PvP balances..."

Who said that procc sets are balanced in PvE?

The issue are the sets over performing not under performing.

In pve why would you complain about an over performing set? Do you pride yourself over terrible dps?

I just looked up a single target fight (manticora) of mine, where I used Grothdarr. The set did 3407 DPS, which was 7.19% of the total DPS. How would anyone consider this as "over performing"?

Call me crazy PVPer, but how is 2piece of AOE proc armor doing 3.4k DPS to single target boss not over performing. I get it, there some underlying issues and this "fix" just makes everything worse not just the good sets, but I dont get why 2pieces of armor taking care 7% of your DPS (possible even more for other people) isnt over performing in your book.

Maybe because all popular monster proc sets are actually over performing?

DRXHarbinger · December 2016

I think the pvp lot should just l2p and get on with it...just saying.

GilGalad · December 2016

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

SJD_Phoenix wrote: »

Chres wrote: »

"This (proposed) change is very very far from what PvP'ers wanted, we don't want to hurt PvE with PvP balances..."

Who said that procc sets are balanced in PvE?

The issue are the sets over performing not under performing.

In pve why would you complain about an over performing set? Do you pride yourself over terrible dps?

I just looked up a single target fight (manticora) of mine, where I used Grothdarr. The set did 3407 DPS, which was 7.19% of the total DPS. How would anyone consider this as "over performing"?

Call me crazy PVPer, but how is 2piece of AOE proc armor doing 3.4k DPS to single target boss not over performing. I get it, there some underlying issues and this "fix" just makes everything worse not just the good sets, but I dont get why 2pieces of armor taking care 7% of your DPS (possible even more for other people) isnt over performing in your book.

Maybe because all popular monster proc sets are actually over performing?

Good 5 piece bonis like burning spellweave or moondancer add arround 6% dps. So if the monster set 2 piece bonus gets worse people will just run a combination of two five piece sets that require only 5 pice on one bar (e.g. a moondacer or BSW) to proc the bonus. At the moment monster sets are worth it, but after this nerf they will likely fall behind a second 5 piece bonus.

DschiPeunt · December 2016

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

SJD_Phoenix wrote: »

Chres wrote: »

"This (proposed) change is very very far from what PvP'ers wanted, we don't want to hurt PvE with PvP balances..."

Who said that procc sets are balanced in PvE?

The issue are the sets over performing not under performing.

In pve why would you complain about an over performing set? Do you pride yourself over terrible dps?

I just looked up a single target fight (manticora) of mine, where I used Grothdarr. The set did 3407 DPS, which was 7.19% of the total DPS. How would anyone consider this as "over performing"?

Call me crazy PVPer, but how is 2piece of AOE proc armor doing 3.4k DPS to single target boss not over performing. I get it, there some underlying issues and this "fix" just makes everything worse not just the good sets, but I dont get why 2pieces of armor taking care 7% of your DPS (possible even more for other people) isnt over performing in your book.

Maybe because all popular monster proc sets are actually over performing?

You crazy PVPer!

From a PvE perspective, I don't care if Grothdarr is an AOE set. It is just as good as its single target potential. I know, that some think, that the overall DPS matters and I know that its fun to show some really high numbers on some fights, but at the end of the day the single target DPS matters. That's why I only focus on that part.

In the particular fight I was refering to, the total single target DPS was 47395. I do not think, that 3.4k from Grothdarr is in any way "over performing".
To see this from a different perspective: I have 12 gear slots (considering both weapon bars with staves). Grothdarr are 2 pieces. So 2/12 = 16.67% of my gear does 7.19% of my DPS. I think that this is quite reasonable. As I already said: This change will probably mean a comeback of the Molag Kena meta, which I personally don't want.

Wollust · December 2016

DschiPeunt wrote: »

SJD_Phoenix wrote: »

Chres wrote: »

"This (proposed) change is very very far from what PvP'ers wanted, we don't want to hurt PvE with PvP balances..."

Who said that procc sets are balanced in PvE?

The issue are the sets over performing not under performing.

In pve why would you complain about an over performing set? Do you pride yourself over terrible dps?

I just looked up a single target fight (manticora) of mine, where I used Grothdarr. The set did 3407 DPS, which was 7.19% of the total DPS. How would anyone consider this as "over performing"?

GJ looking up one of the only fights where there is literally no other thing to hit besides the boss.
Haven't seen anyone say Grothdarr is overperforming on single target (although I personally think the whole concept of proc sets is stupid but that's just me).

MrAppleman · December 2016

It's pretty obvious that this change is directed to nerf PVE. The amount of damage Kragh and Grothdar do is stupid. Everyone has been saying how stupid strong they are.

Everyone who pvps says this change wouldn't solve the cancer that is wearing 2-3 proc sets. This wasn't intended to fix that.

I'm sure they have other changes to bring, but stop blaming PVP. There's no community to blame. ZOS decided to change how strong something that was too strong.

All content has been completed before these very strong monster sets.

Get over it.

DschiPeunt · December 2016

Wollust wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

SJD_Phoenix wrote: »

Chres wrote: »

"This (proposed) change is very very far from what PvP'ers wanted, we don't want to hurt PvE with PvP balances..."

Who said that procc sets are balanced in PvE?

The issue are the sets over performing not under performing.

In pve why would you complain about an over performing set? Do you pride yourself over terrible dps?

I just looked up a single target fight (manticora) of mine, where I used Grothdarr. The set did 3407 DPS, which was 7.19% of the total DPS. How would anyone consider this as "over performing"?

GJ looking up one of the only fights where there is literally no other thing to hit besides the boss.
Haven't seen anyone say Grothdarr is overperforming on single target (although I personally think the whole concept of proc sets is stupid but that's just me).

GJ ignoring what I said about single target fights.

Brutusmax1mus · December 2016

DPShiro wrote: »

Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.

It's not whining, it's legitimate concerns. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't make the imbalance there any less of an issue.

Stop your whining about people bringing up real challenges this game faces.

DPShiro · December 2016

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.

It's not whining, it's legitimate concerns. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't make the imbalance there any less of an issue.

Stop your whining about people bringing up real challenges this game PVP faces.

Fixed that for you.
These are not an issue in PVE, yet we get punished and this very lazy blanket "fix" won't fix the problem in PVP either.

Bakkagami · December 2016

DPShiro wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.

It's not whining, it's legitimate concerns. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't make the imbalance there any less of an issue.

Stop your whining about people bringing up real challenges this game PVP faces.

Fixed that for you.
These are not an issue in PVE, yet we get punished and this very lazy blanket "fix" won't fix the problem in PVP either.

I don't get why PvEers are upset. Proc sets are just as broken on both sides. The only difference is there's no npcs on the forums crying that their recap is all procs.

GilGalad · December 2016

Bakkagami wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.

It's not whining, it's legitimate concerns. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't make the imbalance there any less of an issue.

Stop your whining about people bringing up real challenges this game PVP faces.

Fixed that for you.
These are not an issue in PVE, yet we get punished and this very lazy blanket "fix" won't fix the problem in PVP either.

I don't get why PvEers are upset. Proc sets are just as broken on both sides. The only difference is there's no npcs on the forums crying that their recap is all procs.

has been explained multiple times even in this thread. But I can summarize it for you again:

Ist not about the nerf itself, but about the removal of a core game mechanic that is important in PVE and many builds are based on.
The "solution" does not fix the problem in PVP. Even cutting the tooltips by half would be more effective.
If monster sets deal less then 5% dmg Molag Kena will be BIS again for magicka DPS and no one wants that meta back. Basically all the diversity they added with one tamriel would be gone again.
There might be some sets that overperform a bit on the PVE side like Grothdarr, Ilambris and Kra'gh, but they could be balanced individually.
The main problem for PVP is that you can stack multiple procs.

DPShiro · December 2016

Bakkagami wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.

It's not whining, it's legitimate concerns. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't make the imbalance there any less of an issue.

Stop your whining about people bringing up real challenges this game PVP faces.

Fixed that for you.
These are not an issue in PVE, yet we get punished and this very lazy blanket "fix" won't fix the problem in PVP either.

I don't get why PvEers are upset. Proc sets are just as broken on both sides. The only difference is there's no npcs on the forums crying that their recap is all procs.

Tell me again just how broken and OP proc set is in this parse (posted by @TotallyNotVos )

Surely Liquid Lightning, Wall of Elements etc needs much more nerfing in your opinion?

SodanTok · December 2016

DschiPeunt wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

SJD_Phoenix wrote: »

Chres wrote: »

"This (proposed) change is very very far from what PvP'ers wanted, we don't want to hurt PvE with PvP balances..."

Who said that procc sets are balanced in PvE?

The issue are the sets over performing not under performing.

In pve why would you complain about an over performing set? Do you pride yourself over terrible dps?

I just looked up a single target fight (manticora) of mine, where I used Grothdarr. The set did 3407 DPS, which was 7.19% of the total DPS. How would anyone consider this as "over performing"?

Call me crazy PVPer, but how is 2piece of AOE proc armor doing 3.4k DPS to single target boss not over performing. I get it, there some underlying issues and this "fix" just makes everything worse not just the good sets, but I dont get why 2pieces of armor taking care 7% of your DPS (possible even more for other people) isnt over performing in your book.

Maybe because all popular monster proc sets are actually over performing?

You crazy PVPer!
From a PvE perspective, I don't care if Grothdarr is an AOE set. It is just as good as its single target potential. I know, that some think, that the overall DPS matters and I know that its fun to show some really high numbers on some fights, but at the end of the day the single target DPS matters. That's why I only focus on that part.

In the particular fight I was refering to, the total single target DPS was 47395. I do not think, that 3.4k from Grothdarr is in any way "over performing".
To see this from a different perspective: I have 12 gear slots (considering both weapon bars with staves). Grothdarr are 2 pieces. So 2/12 = 16.67% of my gear does 7.19% of my DPS. I think that this is quite reasonable. As I already said: This change will probably mean a comeback of the Molag Kena meta, which I personally don't want.

Still crazy PVPer here; I still dont see how 16% of your gear doing 7% of your DPS alone is reasonable, say each piece of gear is doing 3.5% of DPS. Thats 42% just from gear. I remember when abilities were doing actual DPS and gear was only buffing their potential.

About Molag Kena issues. As a crazy PVPer and only casual PVEr, it sounds to me players like just spamming abilities without thinking about resource pools (definitely the case in PVP)

Foxic · December 2016

DPShiro wrote: »

Bakkagami wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Make Battle Spirit affect more skills, so PVE isn't punished for PVPs whining.
Make Battle Spirit remove all crits, getting rid of the must have impen and allow more diversity.
Make Battle Spirit have a global cooldown on procs.
Make Battle Spirit include that only one set can proc at once.

It's not whining, it's legitimate concerns. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't make the imbalance there any less of an issue.

Stop your whining about people bringing up real challenges this game PVP faces.

Fixed that for you.
These are not an issue in PVE, yet we get punished and this very lazy blanket "fix" won't fix the problem in PVP either.

I don't get why PvEers are upset. Proc sets are just as broken on both sides. The only difference is there's no npcs on the forums crying that their recap is all procs.

Tell me again just how broken and OP proc set is in this parse (posted by @TotallyNotVos )

Surely Liquid Lightning, Wall of Elements etc needs much more nerfing in your opinion?

I'd like to add. Ilambris only did 3.4K dps under ideal raid conditions if you look at my buff tracker. As well I had 75% and 73% crit rate on ilambris.

I just love hearing how op monster helms are