"Normal is for noobs"

RoyalPink06 · December 2016

I agree with this. It's not even just with the recent update though. I bought ESO the day it came out on PS4 and I remember I almost didn't continue playing it because I just could not figure it out and I had no idea what I was doing. Not only was I new to ESO, it is also my first MMO. Some kind of a stat tutorial would have helped immensely, especially for someone like me who cannot apply the math to save their damn life lol.

Everything I know now I learned from scouring the forums and from listening to the goings-on in zone chat.

Vrienda · December 2016

I've been playing this game since beta and I still have no clue what I'm doing at end game. Apparently you're supposed to dump everything into stam/magic and make yourself really squishy, but that doesn't sound much fun.

Then there's all this animation cancling malarkey and using both weapon slots in sync.

I've tried using guides but they all seem to assume you've got the best monster sets and maelstrom weapons for your spec and that you already know how to manage resources.

There are no guides for new players, which makes getting into the endgame a nightmare. The answer definitely isn't to make solo content hard, because that would just scare away the casual players like myself, but there needs to be a ramp for endgame content that newbies can climb.

code65536 · December 2016

When I started playing this game, I was a clueless newbie.

How clueless? Well, let's see here... I was a Breton "stamina" nightblade. With a bow and a resto staff. And a penchant for light-attacking. And with more points invested in health and magicka than I should have.

Needless to say, my first experiences in dungeons were rough. (Also, I had to ask people what "tank" and "damage" meant when selecting my role because this is my first and only MMO and I knew nothing about the MMO "trinity".) There were some people who pointed me towards Deltia, but I refused to even visit his site because I wanted to figure things out on my own.

Eventually, I figured out that I should put dual-wield on one of my bars. And that I should use abilities like Rapid Strikes instead of standard weapon attacks. And how did I figure those things out if I never consulted a guide? Because I was doing so poorly that it was obvious that I was doing something wrong and that I should try out ways to improve. I read tooltips. Experimented with abilities, etc. I wiped for 3 hours in vet Darkshade before finally clearing it. I wiped for 3 hours on Nerien'eth in vCoH before giving up and vowing to find ways to get better. (Also vowing never to go back in there, but I went back in just a week later.)

Yes, it took time because I stubbornly never consulted any guides and learned through trial and error, but I eventually realized around VR8 that nightblades don't have to be stamina, that magicka nightblades are a thing, and that being a Breton, I should probably go dump some gold at a respec shrine.

Eventually, by the time I had reached VR14 on my first character (just a few weeks before IC's release, so this was the max back then), I was soloing normal dungeons. It was quite the journey, and I don't regret one bit that I took the long way to get there and that along the way, I did some stupid--really, really stupid--things. The kinds of things people make fun of on the forums. Some people would look at wiping for hours on Grobull as a horror story and something that newbies should be protected from. For me, it was a learning experience.

Failure is an excellent teacher, after all.

Dymence · December 2016

Honestly I don't even see how this has anything to do with access to guides and guilds and such.

You must be a real special potato if you can't comprehend that you have abilities to use them, rather than just using light and heavy attacks.

It's not rocket science people.

DRXHarbinger · December 2016

All I takes is someone to give some friendly advice. Back at v3/4 I was a sorc in heavy armor doing it all solo with a lit staff and 2h. One thing that is abundantly clear with eso...if you don't come into the likes of forums or watch yt videos etc nothing is clear about how to have high damage etc. For me it wasn't until iirc @Nifty2g put a post up many moons ago on how to achieve high damage and what stats mean etc. Nothing says stamina is for mêlée weapons etc in the game. You are left largely to your own devices.

Destruent · December 2016

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

All I takes is someone to give some friendly advice. Back at v3/4 I was a sorc in heavy armor doing it all solo with a lit staff and 2h. One thing that is abundantly clear with eso...if you don't come into the likes of forums or watch yt videos etc nothing is clear about how to have high damage etc. For me it wasn't until iirc @Nifty2g put a post up many moons ago on how to achieve high damage and what stats mean etc. Nothing says stamina is for mêlée weapons etc in the game. You are left largely to your own devices.

You could also read the tooltips for stamina/magicka, weapon/spell damage and critratings. They state pretty clear what they do and which kind of skills are effected by them. Don't blame the game for you not reading the tooltips/help provided...

Pallio · December 2016

For new

Woeler wrote: »

Noobs should find a guild instead of going into the dungeon finder unprepared. Because, you know, if you wanna learn something you gotta actually talk to people. (Crazy, I know right?)

For new players, think about it like this, if you want to learn a skill, say archery, having a few friends who know archery take you out for some target practice and advise will be MUCH more productive than randomly talking to people in the sport section at Walmart as you buy all the stuff you think you need to learn archery. Guilds that want to grow and learn together with new people are everywhere and easy to find.

code65536 · December 2016

Dymence wrote: »

Honestly I don't even see how this has anything to do with access to guides and guilds and such.

You must be a real special potato if you can't comprehend that you have abilities to use them, rather than just using light and heavy attacks.

It's not rocket science people.

I can tell you exactly why, when I was a newbie, I mostly light-attacked. You have tooltips for abilities, but no context for what those numbers mean. How much enemy does that boss have? How much damage does a light and heavy attack do in comparison? Enemy health numbers and SCT are both disabled by default (and didn't even exist in the game when I was first starting out). A new player casually starting out isn't going to seek out FTC or even know what that is. And on top of all that, the one tutorial that the game does give you just tells you to light and heavy attack, which also happens to be enough for the easy questing and overland content in the game.

It's an opaque game that doesn't punish people for doing it wrong. At least, not until they hit a group dungeon. At that point, many will be forced adapt and learn.

svartorn · December 2016

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

I play Random normal as CP561+.
Why? I like to relax at the end of the day and love how fast everything falls.
Ofc there are people with bad sets who are failing in normal. But imagine those in Vet.
Even worse!

I love coming in to random normals as a healer, and then basically soloing the instance with them trying to keep up.

svartorn · December 2016

Acrolas wrote: »

And don't coach people during a pickup game. That doesn't make you a hero. That makes you an *** hole. Because pickup games aren't about winning. They're about trying things and having fun while failing. If people get bent out of shape, *** 'em. Non-organized groups don't need basic bros who can't set their pride aside for a little while and re-experience things through the eyes of a beginner. If you want a challenge or have a goal, group up accordingly.

You say that but often these people literally can't finish a dungeon.

Dymence · December 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Honestly I don't even see how this has anything to do with access to guides and guilds and such.

You must be a real special potato if you can't comprehend that you have abilities to use them, rather than just using light and heavy attacks.

It's not rocket science people.

I can tell you exactly why, when I was a newbie, I mostly light-attacked. You have tooltips for abilities, but no context for what those numbers mean. How much enemy does that boss have? How much damage does a light and heavy attack do in comparison? Enemy health numbers and SCT are both disabled by default (and didn't even exist in the game when I was first starting out). A new player casually starting out isn't going to seek out FTC or even know what that is. And on top of all that, the one tutorial that the game does give you just tells you to light and heavy attack, which also happens to be enough for the easy questing and overland content in the game.

It's an opaque game that doesn't punish people for doing it wrong. At least, not until they hit a group dungeon. At that point, many will be forced adapt and learn.

And I wouldn't expect people to care for the numbers behind it. I'll call light/heavy attacks 'auto attacks' for the sake of consistency and comparison. If you play any other MMO, or even a MOBA, would you expect simply auto attacking to be stronger than using your abilities? It's really just common sense.

Or are ESO players just exceptionally dull? Do people not feel the 'thrill' anymore of unlocking a new ability and playing around with it, simply because it looks and feels awesome?

code65536 · December 2016

Dymence wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Honestly I don't even see how this has anything to do with access to guides and guilds and such.

You must be a real special potato if you can't comprehend that you have abilities to use them, rather than just using light and heavy attacks.

It's not rocket science people.

I can tell you exactly why, when I was a newbie, I mostly light-attacked. You have tooltips for abilities, but no context for what those numbers mean. How much enemy does that boss have? How much damage does a light and heavy attack do in comparison? Enemy health numbers and SCT are both disabled by default (and didn't even exist in the game when I was first starting out). A new player casually starting out isn't going to seek out FTC or even know what that is. And on top of all that, the one tutorial that the game does give you just tells you to light and heavy attack, which also happens to be enough for the easy questing and overland content in the game.

It's an opaque game that doesn't punish people for doing it wrong. At least, not until they hit a group dungeon. At that point, many will be forced adapt and learn.

And I wouldn't expect people to care for the numbers behind it. I'll call light/heavy attacks 'auto attacks' for the sake of consistency and comparison. If you play any other MMO, or even a MOBA, would you expect simply auto attacking to be stronger than using your abilities?

Or are ESO players just exceptionally dull? Do people not feel the 'thrill' anymore of unlocking a new ability and playing around with it, simply because it looks and feels awesome?

ESO is my first (and still only) MMO. Or online game of any sort. The only reason I got it was because it was Elder Scrolls, and I was, at the time, more interested in the story than in how fast I could kill things. I suspect that there are a lot of other players in that boat.

Dymence · December 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Honestly I don't even see how this has anything to do with access to guides and guilds and such.

You must be a real special potato if you can't comprehend that you have abilities to use them, rather than just using light and heavy attacks.

It's not rocket science people.

I can tell you exactly why, when I was a newbie, I mostly light-attacked. You have tooltips for abilities, but no context for what those numbers mean. How much enemy does that boss have? How much damage does a light and heavy attack do in comparison? Enemy health numbers and SCT are both disabled by default (and didn't even exist in the game when I was first starting out). A new player casually starting out isn't going to seek out FTC or even know what that is. And on top of all that, the one tutorial that the game does give you just tells you to light and heavy attack, which also happens to be enough for the easy questing and overland content in the game.

It's an opaque game that doesn't punish people for doing it wrong. At least, not until they hit a group dungeon. At that point, many will be forced adapt and learn.

And I wouldn't expect people to care for the numbers behind it. I'll call light/heavy attacks 'auto attacks' for the sake of consistency and comparison. If you play any other MMO, or even a MOBA, would you expect simply auto attacking to be stronger than using your abilities?

Or are ESO players just exceptionally dull? Do people not feel the 'thrill' anymore of unlocking a new ability and playing around with it, simply because it looks and feels awesome?

ESO is my first (and still only) MMO. Or online game of any sort. The only reason I got it was because it was Elder Scrolls, and I was, at the time, more interested in the story than in how fast I could kill things. I suspect that there are a lot of other players in that boat.

You're probably right, and I can see how it might be confusing for someone who doesn't have a background playing games within a similar genre.

However, I must say it still astounds me that people would prefer 'boring' light attacks over fancy looking abilities.

itsfatbass · December 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Noobs should find a guild instead of going into the dungeon finder unprepared. Because, you know, if you wanna learn something you gotta actually talk to people. (Crazy, I know right?)

Dunno about you, but I dont find a guild until I know I'ma actually put down roots in a game. If these people are just trying to get their foot in the door, see how it goes, this can and will screw them.

Considering you can be in 5 guilds at once in this game, that argument is invalid. You don't need to wait to have "roots" to find a guild, you can have multiple ranging from Crafting guilds, casual guilds etc. Great way to get foot in door.

idk · December 2016

The update didn't make the game player unfriendly with the recent update. It's the sheer choice we have and individuals lack of searching for information.

I knoe magika players that use bow and DW and like it even though they are challenged to breach 10k dps. They like it.

danno8 · December 2016

There are a few things the game does a really poor job of explaining. I think weapon power/splee power, weapon crit/spell crit are reasonably well explained but here is a list of things that are not well explained or not explained at all:

-light/heavy attacking gives "heroism" and builds ultimate. Same with blocking or healing someone who has the buff.
-heavy attacking gives back resources. I don't think this is mentioned anywhere. How would a new person ever know?
-resource pools also increase damage. In most games resources are separated from damage stats.

DRXHarbinger · December 2016

Destruent wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

All I takes is someone to give some friendly advice. Back at v3/4 I was a sorc in heavy armor doing it all solo with a lit staff and 2h. One thing that is abundantly clear with eso...if you don't come into the likes of forums or watch yt videos etc nothing is clear about how to have high damage etc. For me it wasn't until iirc @Nifty2g put a post up many moons ago on how to achieve high damage and what stats mean etc. Nothing says stamina is for mêlée weapons etc in the game. You are left largely to your own devices.

You could also read the tooltips for stamina/magicka, weapon/spell damage and critratings. They state pretty clear what they do and which kind of skills are effected by them. Don't blame the game for you not reading the tooltips/help provided...

Post an example.

Destruent · December 2016

danno8 wrote: »

There are a few things the game does a really poor job of explaining. I think weapon power/splee power, weapon crit/spell crit are reasonably well explained but here is a list of things that are not well explained or not explained at all:

-light/heavy attacking gives "heroism" and builds ultimate. Same with blocking or healing someone who has the buff.
-heavy attacking gives back resources. I don't think this is mentioned anywhere. How would a new person ever know?
-resource pools also increase damage. In most games resources are separated from damage stats.

This is clearly stated in the tooltips of magicka/stamina. Just read them!

raj72616a · December 2016

we assume that after playing thru several elder scroll games, we know exactly what magicka and stamina/fatigue are, and do not even know there are tooltips on the character sheets.

Qbiken · December 2016

Inhuman003 wrote: »

I give Deltia credit for helping noob's and old dogs to learn new tricks. But if people don't look for info and they will still be in the dark forever.

Rule #1 of ESO = Don´t use Deltia builds XD

Pallmor · December 2016

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Do people really not do any research into a game

Not only are they out there, but they're probably the vast majority. It's easy to forget that we here on the forums are a tiny, tiny minority. Most people just install a game and play it. They don't go to the forums, or the FAQ's, or the wikis. They just install the game and play.

Qbiken · December 2016

FoolishHuman wrote: »

You are all funny. If you "google" builds all you find is pro builds, old stuff, videos from 2014 and wikis that still have outdated skill description. The community here is a bit too small for that to work. There are almost no beginner guides around that help you understand the game. Just blindly copying a build won't really help you with that.
I wish this game had an official wiki, online handbook or something like that. Updated every patch by the community managers and trusted players. But I guess that is just too much to ask.
On the other hand it would be great if the community was a bit more patient with new people in dungeons, because getting kicked at every little problem also doesn't help with learning the game.

Ever heard of Tamrielfoundry???
And no copy a build will not make you a good player but look at it this way: Copying a build and trying to learn it will make you understand the class and how to play it, after that you tweek it after your playstyle (at least that´s how I do. I copy a build, try to learn how to play the build, and then tweek it after my own needs and playstyle. You´ll be surpriced how often it turns out good)

Prof_Bawbag · December 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Noobs should find a guild instead of going into the dungeon finder unprepared. Because, you know, if you wanna learn something you gotta actually talk to people. (Crazy, I know right?)

There are a lot of people who don't bother with the forums etc, just pick up a game and play and are free to use any feature within that game that they so wish to use. Not a dig at you because I know you're not advocating that they have no right being there, but the simple truth of the matter is, no player is obligated to do anything. If others take issue with that, then they're free to punt that player. In other words, noobs shouldn't be required to do anything. Most of us don't play the game to please others or for the benefit of others, we play it to have fun and what's fun for some, isn't for others. Setting up your build in an optimal way that plays to the strengths of a group is entirely optional. As is taking time out to scour through pages of information on the net.

Add to that, ESO maybe just be a drop in, drop out experience to those players whilst they play other games. I enjoy ESO more than the other people on my list and as such I appreciate to get further in the game I need to put in that little bit more. There are plenty of games I've played in the past that I couldn't really give a jot about going that extra mile.

VoidBlue · December 2016

I didn't know what I was doing when I first started. Didn't look up builds or tips until I kept dying in cadwells gold.

Now I enjoy soloing normal dungeons or two manning normal dungeons that have death mechanics ( ie, crypt of hearts 2, wayrest sewers 2, ect )

I'm working on a new build for one of my toons to be able to two man veteran dungeons. We can two man them up to the last boss and just wipe over and over. So I'm working on fixing that

!

mr_wazzabi · December 2016

Acrolas wrote: »

What ESO players think they build:

What they've actually built:

Anybody thinking there's some sort of complex theory behind this game is just fooling themselves. We've just been around long enough to care a little bit more about the particulars of what we spam and what we wear. I sure didn't care my first year. I was too busy exploring and creating/deleting characters.

Life would be so much easier if everybody would just remember how uncompetitive they were at the beginning. Nobody needs to research and do homework. They just have to like the game enough to stick around. Then they can figure out which five Duplo blocks they want to put on each weapon bar.

And don't coach people during a pickup game. That doesn't make you a hero. That makes you an *** hole. Because pickup games aren't about winning. They're about trying things and having fun while failing. If people get bent out of shape, *** 'em. Non-organized groups don't need basic bros who can't set their pride aside for a little while and re-experience things through the eyes of a beginner. If you want a challenge or have a goal, group up accordingly.

Disagree. How about when you're pugging for vet dungeons and your group constantly wipes, leaving you to solo every boss? Teaching these people how to play does the entire playerbase a favour.

Nobody has fun when they keep dying and can't complete content.

Soella · December 2016

The main issue is that a new player does not have any indications if his play style/skills are good enough for dungeon.

The very first undaunted quest should be a very easy version of arena, but player must have some DPS, and a few must block/roll dodge moments there. Some tips on each fail should help to understand deficiencies.

Only successfully done this quest a player can join randoms.

Lore friendly, not too difficult to implement, help new player to feel difference between solo and group content.

Similar arena but a bit more challenging could be prerequisite for vet randoms.

Aneca · December 2016

Kevduit is a hoot. I liked his story where he took on Deltia and another big name. Sypherr (?)

As it has been pointed out, most of the game's quests are easy enough that no particular rotation or in-depth understanding of your skills/class is necessary. If the mob dies and you don't, that's good enough. A player, especially one that is new to MMOs, may not realize that his playstyle is suboptimal until he attempts some group content.

While I agree that Google is our friend, not everything out there is accurate or applicable or properly interpreted by the reader. A new player would probably not be able to distinguish good advice from bad.

I've never understood why games are not accompanied by official handbooks published by the developers.

alexkdd99 · December 2016

Wolfshead wrote: »

I like those people in this post that just use Google as there answer that just show that those people just as afraid to interact with other as well and also that just tell me one thing that those people that use the word Google only care about themself and dont care about anyone one else but themself.

It is a shame how the MMO Community have went from help each other to i dont care about you damn if you mess up my game for them i go to forum whine and you should know that all about char are Google.

Also the game is not much of user friendly for new player at all then are not much off help text even SWTOR have info text in game pop up gave you run down on what have been add to later content both game mechanics and char update.

Lol using Google means you don't care about people? What kind of crap is that? And maybe you missed the part where people said those who don't like to be social and not join a guild should use Google.

So people who post builds and info do so because they don't like people and don't care about others? All this time I thought people were helping others by posting info about the game for others to Google and use.

I kind of think you didn't read anything in this thread or are just trolling.

Telling someone to Google something means you don't care about anyone but yourself? The reason people put the info on the internet is for others to USE. Sometimes others are better at explaining things such as builds or game mechanics, this is just one great example on why telling someone to look up information is a good thing and far from selfish. Being selfish would just be sitting back laughing and not telling them to use Google.

Guides designed to help new players will be far more beneficial than the average Joe trying to teach someone everything about the game.

Acrolas wrote: »

What ESO players think they build:

What they've actually built:

Anybody thinking there's some sort of complex theory behind this game is just fooling themselves. We've just been around long enough to care a little bit more about the particulars of what we spam and what we wear. I sure didn't care my first year. I was too busy exploring and creating/deleting characters.

Life would be so much easier if everybody would just remember how uncompetitive they were at the beginning. Nobody needs to research and do homework. They just have to like the game enough to stick around. Then they can figure out which five Duplo blocks they want to put on each weapon bar.

And don't coach people during a pickup game. That doesn't make you a hero. That makes you an *** hole. Because pickup games aren't about winning. They're about trying things and having fun while failing. If people get bent out of shape, *** 'em. Non-organized groups don't need basic bros who can't set their pride aside for a little while and re-experience things through the eyes of a beginner. If you want a challenge or have a goal, group up accordingly.

I disagree, when I was new I was always happy when someone shared info about the game. Even today if someone shares something I didn't know I am thankful they did. Maybe some people like struggling through not being able to kill things and dieing constantly, but I did not and most of the people I have played mmo's with did not either.

I would much rather someone give me tips than just watch me struggle, especially if I am doing things completely wrong. I am even more thankful if they decide to help when the dungeon is over. I have yet to run into someone who did not appreciate helpful information and/or crafted gear. Most are now on my friends list.

anitajoneb17_ESO · December 2016

Aneca wrote: »

I've never understood why games are not accompanied by official handbooks published by the developers.

Unfortunately, that one is very easy to answer : because it would take aaaaages and a lot of money to research, write, publish and maintain.

There was a "handbook" for Skyrim for instance but it was made by an outside company (not Beth), cost extra (nearly as much as the game) and got outdated quickly due to patches and DLC.
Would be even worse with an ever-changing, never-ending, always expanding MMO.

Not many (if any at all) tutorial-makers have a notion of the type of info that is needed by newbies.

That being said, I disagree with OP here. If you have expectations, don't PUG, and stop posting every "horrible-PUG-noob-story" in here everytime you PUG. People should not have to study and "get a diploma" before queuing for group content in ESO.

starkerealm · December 2016

Destruent wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

There are a few things the game does a really poor job of explaining. I think weapon power/splee power, weapon crit/spell crit are reasonably well explained but here is a list of things that are not well explained or not explained at all:

-light/heavy attacking gives "heroism" and builds ultimate. Same with blocking or healing someone who has the buff.
-heavy attacking gives back resources. I don't think this is mentioned anywhere. How would a new person ever know?
-resource pools also increase damage. In most games resources are separated from damage stats.

This is clearly stated in the tooltips of magicka/stamina. Just read them!

And yet the pools do not affect the "printed" weapon and spell damage on the character sheet. For the longest time, I thought the tooltips were wrong, because increasing stamina or magicka did not increase weapon power or spell power.