"Normal is for noobs"

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Nyghthowler wrote: »

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

It's 2016. People who don't Google things are stupid. Sorry to be so harsh but this goes for EVERYTHING, not just ESO. You have all of the world's available information literally at your fingertips.

You can learn anything from ESO builds, to installing hot water heaters, to what Spider 2 Y Banana means and all the way up to making creme brûlée or doing CPR. Just ask it.

Yeah, people who want to actually explore the game and not just look up all the answers should be burned at the stake!
/sarcasm

Hardly. The OPs example was that these people didn't know anything because their friend who got them into the game refused to help them. Meanwhile they got to CP200 so chances are they had at least a month or three to figure out a solution other than relying on a crappy friend. If all that is true and no one thought to Google things as a potential solution they are in fact stupid.

That is an idiotic opinion actually...... There are those who enjoy trial and error they also enjoy exploring things for themselves without data mining, or doing a web search. I find the quest I do without the help of google are the most enjoyable because I discovered it on my own without the answer book. It's a very Millennial generation thing to decide that anyone that doesn't take shortcuts is stupid.

/shrug.

Except that was not what the original post was about. The people in his example were searching for ideas because their "friend who got them into the game" refused to help. They were not "trying to figure things out on their own".

Using Google is not a shortcut in this situation. It's a logical step when you're searching for information but the only source you have is stonewalling you.

But yeah, millennials. Clearly the problem.

Exept that he's not far from the truth. This entire thread has been new generation gamers including yourself shouting at us to shut up and use google, and stop demanding this game have a tutorial worth a crap.

Sounds exactly like what he's saying to me.

I'm 35.

Riptide

Well, I'm 41, was in the very first phase of the beta for ESO, just after friends and family...our group was named by the devs as "The Psijic Order". 100ish of us if I remember right.

Now I had come out of MMOs as had roughly half of us. I wrote MUD code back in college and was a beta tester for Ultima Online, Everquest, WoW, and several others.

Those like me in that early group argued, as you would expect, for a lot of the MMO elements...some that made it, heaps that didn't.

On the other side of the aisle were folks who had never played an MMO, or of they had, had a bit of disdain for it. They were all about the lore, the story, etc.

What folks like me tried to explain is that the two things are not mutually exclusive, and that quite simply ESO was not the successor single player game to Skyrim but - an MMO.

MMOs are a trifle more challenging at the top end than a single player game is. A very successful player has to be a self starter, has to be the sort of person that enjoys researching things, etc. It is about discovery. It is about being *proactive*. It is about getting off the rails that a single player experience often has.

And look, I don't mean to go all "uphill in the snow" here, but compared to Everquest? Ultima Online?

ESO is truly, truly elementary. There is practically no death penalty. The learning curve is not in the least bit prohibitive.

Ultima Online was so much harsher it is comedy. But it was so. much. fun. Because mistakes mattered. Because skill mattered. Because research mattered. All more than how much money you spent.

Googling the truly elementary mechanics of ESO is *easy*. It just is. It isn't too much to ask. Not of a 15 year old. Not of a 50 year old. Just do it - and gently, magnanimously encourage those that don't to. Don't have to be mean about it, just nudge em nicely.

kieso

I'm going to have to agree with the OP. I don't play this game anymore and haven't played since the stealing system was new but I did play in BETA and at release. I was even part of the Psijic order PTS before it went public so I played this game a lot and this is definitely not my first MMO (started with Ultima Online) so I'm use to researching. Now there are tons of things wrong with this game that I wont even go into but as far as PVE goes I've never felt there was a steady progression.

Even after looking at builds and whatnot most of them require tons of gold to buy overpriced equipment sold by players who farm the very dungeons you're trying to get into. It's either that or be carried by friends. But I always found it odd that all this gear you need to run a dungeon decently is locked behind that very same dungeon instead of offering a clear path to progression by some other means that will then allow you to run said dungeon. Even if you manage to make it though a dungeon there's no guarantee your efforts will reward you with something you want. So in essence you need to a put a dungeon on farm mode to get the items you want just to be able to put that dungeon on farm mode. Makes no sense and one reason why I stopped playing this game and have only recently started checking the forums again to see if anything has changed but that's only because Skyrim SE gave me some nostalgia.

code65536

kieso wrote: »

Even after looking at builds and whatnot most of them require tons of gold to buy overpriced equipment sold by players who farm the very dungeons you're trying to get into.

That's completely, utterly incorrect.

You can do virtually all the content in the game with simple crafted gear. BiS gear for endgame trials isn't even stuff that you can buy, since it's all BoP. But more importantly, you don't need BiS gear to complete the content.

People put out builds that do 50K DPS and readers get starry-eyed and think that they need that gear. No, they don't. What's not apparent in the build guides is that 90% of your DPS comes from player skill and proper group support. Give a newbie the best gear possible, and they will still pull a fraction of the DPS as an experienced player wearing cheap crafted gear. They look at a Hodor video and think that it's the gear that makes the build. No. It's the player and the group. The difference between easy-to-get gear and the most exclusive hard-to-farm gear is probably 10% or less.

Take, for example, my alt account. I completed vMA on that account with less than 300 CP, using a shoestring budget build (I have a build guide here; it was a combination of 1 crafted set, 1 cheap BoE dropped set that cost under 15K total, and a single piece of easy-to-get BoP gear). You don't need fancy gear that costs hundreds of thousands of gold or to farm dungeons endlessly to get competent gear. What you do need is to put in the time to learn and practice combat--and that's the way things should be.

The problem is that most of the builds out there are people showing off the limits of what they can achieve--they're made by competitive players, intended to be used (and admired) by other competitive players. There aren't many guides aimed at the mainstream audience, but the ones that do exist are better yardsticks to judge the game's content by.

Riptide

kieso wrote: »

I'm going to have to agree with the OP. I don't play this game anymore and haven't played since the stealing system was new

That is a considerable amount of time that no "but" will do. That is before a majority of the group content we are talking about, and in the Psijic days we had virtually zero group content.

Even after looking at builds and whatnot most of them require tons of gold to buy overpriced equipment sold by players who farm the very dungeons you're trying to get into.

No, it isn't. Purple equipment is truly negligable to achieve. Truly.

It isn't an opinion thing. It is just the truth. A person can on their own upgrade 2 trait gear to purple for a very small outlay, or no outlay by doing writs. The process is elementary, easy to find, requires no outside help. Requires not one single drop, from zero to complete would take around 2 weeks casual gaming time max once max level.

Seriously here.

Spaceclown

I don't think a good game hold peoples hands and tells them how to play. If this game were any easier I wouldnt be playing at much! I love a challenge. Also, I think one of the fun things is asking other players for their insight. The unfun part is when everyone is zone chat calls you an idiot and tells you to google it, which has happened to me a couple times now. Keep being called an idiot for not using map addons also. I don't wanna use that on my first time because I wanna explore and have fun finding stuff on my own!

Doctordarkspawn

Riptide wrote: »

Well, I'm 41, was in the very first phase of the beta for ESO, just after friends and family...our group was named by the devs as "The Psijic Order". 100ish of us if I remember right.

Now I had come out of MMOs as had roughly half of us. I wrote MUD code back in college and was a beta tester for Ultima Online, Everquest, WoW, and several others.

Those like me in that early group argued, as you would expect, for a lot of the MMO elements...some that made it, heaps that didn't.

On the other side of the aisle were folks who had never played an MMO, or of they had, had a bit of disdain for it. They were all about the lore, the story, etc.

What folks like me tried to explain is that the two things are not mutually exclusive, and that quite simply ESO was not the successor single player game to Skyrim but - an MMO.

MMOs are a trifle more challenging at the top end than a single player game is. A very successful player has to be a self starter, has to be the sort of person that enjoys researching things, etc. It is about discovery. It is about being *proactive*. It is about getting off the rails that a single player experience often has.

And look, I don't mean to go all "uphill in the snow" here, but compared to Everquest? Ultima Online?

ESO is truly, truly elementary. There is practically no death penalty. The learning curve is not in the least bit prohibitive.

Ultima Online was so much harsher it is comedy. But it was so. much. fun. Because mistakes mattered. Because skill mattered. Because research mattered. All more than how much money you spent.

Googling the truly elementary mechanics of ESO is *easy*. It just is. It isn't too much to ask. Not of a 15 year old. Not of a 50 year old. Just do it - and gently, magnanimously encourage those that don't to. Don't have to be mean about it, just nudge em nicely.

If your comparing this game to Ultima and the original Everquest, of course this game is going to be elementary.

But it's not 1997 and the standards have changed. It's peers, WoW, most free to play MMO's (The best aproximation is Neverwinter Online) beat this game in sheer progression and user friendly-ness. Stating how good we got it is irrelevent, good is not ideal and there will allways be area's for improvement, and this is one of them. This game can make those games look like kiddy pools in the depth department, but if it's about as user friendly as a biting book, it'll never catch on.

I will not settle for a bad game because they cost less than they did when the NES was new, and I wont settle for bad design on the same principle.

Edit: It's also worth noting that -tastes- have changed. What may have been fun back then, the backbreaking challenge, may not appeal to folks nowadays. I personally fall into neither catagory, I appreciate a well balanced challenge in the right place, like raids, but I find converting everything into a hardcore slog really kills it for me. So just going 'it was so fun' does not cut it either.

Jeremy

Riptide wrote: »

Well, I'm 41, was in the very first phase of the beta for ESO, just after friends and family...our group was named by the devs as "The Psijic Order". 100ish of us if I remember right.

Now I had come out of MMOs as had roughly half of us. I wrote MUD code back in college and was a beta tester for Ultima Online, Everquest, WoW, and several others.

Those like me in that early group argued, as you would expect, for a lot of the MMO elements...some that made it, heaps that didn't.

On the other side of the aisle were folks who had never played an MMO, or of they had, had a bit of disdain for it. They were all about the lore, the story, etc.

What folks like me tried to explain is that the two things are not mutually exclusive, and that quite simply ESO was not the successor single player game to Skyrim but - an MMO.

MMOs are a trifle more challenging at the top end than a single player game is. A very successful player has to be a self starter, has to be the sort of person that enjoys researching things, etc. It is about discovery. It is about being *proactive*. It is about getting off the rails that a single player experience often has.

And look, I don't mean to go all "uphill in the snow" here, but compared to Everquest? Ultima Online?

ESO is truly, truly elementary. There is practically no death penalty. The learning curve is not in the least bit prohibitive.

Ultima Online was so much harsher it is comedy. But it was so. much. fun. Because mistakes mattered. Because skill mattered. Because research mattered. All more than how much money you spent.

Googling the truly elementary mechanics of ESO is *easy*. It just is. It isn't too much to ask. Not of a 15 year old. Not of a 50 year old. Just do it - and gently, magnanimously encourage those that don't to. Don't have to be mean about it, just nudge em nicely.

You're correct that ESO is like child's play compared to older MMORPGs that required vast amounts of time and effort and punished you harshly when you didn't succeed. But in a sense: that is also what makes ESO more difficult for newer players - because the game does not prepare them for many of the challenges they are going to encounter in dungeons.

For example: If a player is gliding through the game as if he or she was on auto pilot - why then would they ever feel the need to visit websites or research builds? Because the one they are using seems to be doing so well. And that is routinely what is at issue here on this game. It is terribly balanced with huge difficulty spikes. It lulls players into feeling confident enough to queue up for veteran dungeons before they are actually ready. In other words: this game sets players up to fail. And then they are called "noobs" any many other worse names and often kicked from the group.

On the older MMORPGs you cite this was not a problem. You couldn't reach max level or complete the story without learning the ropes first. So when you became a veteran you actually were an experienced veteran who had experience at dealing with the game's more challenging aspects. On this game it's the exact opposite.

Rev Rielle

Just because a couple of new players that are learning are unable to complete a normal dungeon that does not mean there is something wrong with them, nor how the dungeon/s are designed.

It just happens. Failure is not a dirty, bad, word. When it happens it's not he end of the world. In fact it's a good thing; for when stretched we have clear stimulus grow. Some players will embrace that and look to improve, whilst others will not. Either way is perfectly fine.

The only fault here I think is the thinking that content should be able to be completed first time by everyone. Though diminished there is still some skill involved with normal dungeons. This is especially true for the return version II dungeons where there are often various 'immediate defeat' mechanics in place or other checks, such as a dps check in this case.

Doctordarkspawn

Jeremy wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

Well, I'm 41, was in the very first phase of the beta for ESO, just after friends and family...our group was named by the devs as "The Psijic Order". 100ish of us if I remember right.

Now I had come out of MMOs as had roughly half of us. I wrote MUD code back in college and was a beta tester for Ultima Online, Everquest, WoW, and several others.

Those like me in that early group argued, as you would expect, for a lot of the MMO elements...some that made it, heaps that didn't.

On the other side of the aisle were folks who had never played an MMO, or of they had, had a bit of disdain for it. They were all about the lore, the story, etc.

What folks like me tried to explain is that the two things are not mutually exclusive, and that quite simply ESO was not the successor single player game to Skyrim but - an MMO.

MMOs are a trifle more challenging at the top end than a single player game is. A very successful player has to be a self starter, has to be the sort of person that enjoys researching things, etc. It is about discovery. It is about being *proactive*. It is about getting off the rails that a single player experience often has.

And look, I don't mean to go all "uphill in the snow" here, but compared to Everquest? Ultima Online?

ESO is truly, truly elementary. There is practically no death penalty. The learning curve is not in the least bit prohibitive.

Ultima Online was so much harsher it is comedy. But it was so. much. fun. Because mistakes mattered. Because skill mattered. Because research mattered. All more than how much money you spent.

Googling the truly elementary mechanics of ESO is *easy*. It just is. It isn't too much to ask. Not of a 15 year old. Not of a 50 year old. Just do it - and gently, magnanimously encourage those that don't to. Don't have to be mean about it, just nudge em nicely.

You're correct that ESO is like child's play compared to older MMORPGs that required vast amounts of time and effort and punished you harshly when you didn't succeed. But in a sense: that is also what makes ESO more difficult for newer players - because the game does not prepare them for many of the challenges they are going to encounter in dungeons.

For example: If a player is gliding through the game as if he or she was on auto pilot - why then would they ever feel the need to visit websites or research builds? Because the one they are using seems to be doing so well. And that is routinely what is at issue here on this game. It is terribly balanced with huge difficulty spikes. It lulls players into feeling confident enough to queue up for veteran dungeons before they are actually ready. In other words: this game sets players up to fail. And then they are called "noobs" any many other worse names and often kicked from the group.

On the older MMORPGs you cite this was not a problem. You couldn't reach max level or complete the story without learning the ropes first. So when you became a veteran you actually were an experienced veteran who had experience at dealing with the game's more challenging aspects. On this game it's the exact opposite.

Oddly enough, this -was- the case on release.

Overworld content was a fight for your life every tooth and nail, and every encounter felt like a fight for your life. This was way back on release when the sub requirement still remained. But it was decently paced and the game preped you for what you were going to encounter. Hell, Veteran ranks was basicly a group -zone-, and plenty of it.

The problem? The problem from people like me was, we hit vet ranks, threw our keyboards against the wall and abruptly stoped playing. Which nearly killed this game. There was something to be said for beating Molag Bal in vanilla (And I did, even though my account got eaten by Zenimax when I changed ISP's) But the vet rank zones were so hard, you couldn't solo them. People like me left in droves for something a little less teeth-clenching, and the hardcore audience complained about the grind.

The problem we face now, is this game has been shoddily converted into a more casual experience, and is going -back- to that hardcore thing. The game does not know what it wants to be. Does it wanna keep hardcore players? Then the casuals get told to suck it and leave. Does it want to appeal to everyone? Then the hardcore players whine. The game does not know what it wants to be and until it figures that out we probably wont get a coherent experience.

Jeremy

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

Well, I'm 41, was in the very first phase of the beta for ESO, just after friends and family...our group was named by the devs as "The Psijic Order". 100ish of us if I remember right.

Now I had come out of MMOs as had roughly half of us. I wrote MUD code back in college and was a beta tester for Ultima Online, Everquest, WoW, and several others.

Those like me in that early group argued, as you would expect, for a lot of the MMO elements...some that made it, heaps that didn't.

On the other side of the aisle were folks who had never played an MMO, or of they had, had a bit of disdain for it. They were all about the lore, the story, etc.

What folks like me tried to explain is that the two things are not mutually exclusive, and that quite simply ESO was not the successor single player game to Skyrim but - an MMO.

MMOs are a trifle more challenging at the top end than a single player game is. A very successful player has to be a self starter, has to be the sort of person that enjoys researching things, etc. It is about discovery. It is about being *proactive*. It is about getting off the rails that a single player experience often has.

And look, I don't mean to go all "uphill in the snow" here, but compared to Everquest? Ultima Online?

ESO is truly, truly elementary. There is practically no death penalty. The learning curve is not in the least bit prohibitive.

Ultima Online was so much harsher it is comedy. But it was so. much. fun. Because mistakes mattered. Because skill mattered. Because research mattered. All more than how much money you spent.

Googling the truly elementary mechanics of ESO is *easy*. It just is. It isn't too much to ask. Not of a 15 year old. Not of a 50 year old. Just do it - and gently, magnanimously encourage those that don't to. Don't have to be mean about it, just nudge em nicely.

You're correct that ESO is like child's play compared to older MMORPGs that required vast amounts of time and effort and punished you harshly when you didn't succeed. But in a sense: that is also what makes ESO more difficult for newer players - because the game does not prepare them for many of the challenges they are going to encounter in dungeons.

For example: If a player is gliding through the game as if he or she was on auto pilot - why then would they ever feel the need to visit websites or research builds? Because the one they are using seems to be doing so well. And that is routinely what is at issue here on this game. It is terribly balanced with huge difficulty spikes. It lulls players into feeling confident enough to queue up for veteran dungeons before they are actually ready. In other words: this game sets players up to fail. And then they are called "noobs" any many other worse names and often kicked from the group.

On the older MMORPGs you cite this was not a problem. You couldn't reach max level or complete the story without learning the ropes first. So when you became a veteran you actually were an experienced veteran who had experience at dealing with the game's more challenging aspects. On this game it's the exact opposite.

Oddly enough, this -was- the case on release.

Overworld content was a fight for your life every tooth and nail, and every encounter felt like a fight for your life. This was way back on release when the sub requirement still remained. But it was decently paced and the game preped you for what you were going to encounter. Hell, Veteran ranks was basicly a group -zone-, and plenty of it.

The problem? The problem from people like me was, we hit vet ranks, threw our keyboards against the wall and abruptly stoped playing. Which nearly killed this game. There was something to be said for beating Molag Bal in vanilla (And I did, even though my account got eaten by Zenimax when I changed ISP's) But the vet rank zones were so hard, you couldn't solo them. People like me left in droves for something a little less teeth-clenching, and the hardcore audience complained about the grind.

The problem we face now, is this game has been shoddily converted into a more casual experience, and is going -back- to that hardcore thing. The game does not know what it wants to be. Does it wanna keep hardcore players? Does it want to appeal to everyone? The game does not know what it wants to be and until it figures that out we probably wont get a coherent experience.

I don't ever remember the landscape content on this game being difficult. Back when I was leveling up - I had a hard time not out-leveling every zone I was in and making it ridiculously easy. But I took a long break from the game shortly after I beat Molag Bal (who was a wuss, but maybe that's just because I played a healer or something). So I never experienced the veteran zones you talk about. I have heard horror stories about them from others and not just you though. So I don't doubt what you say.

I think you're dead on about this game not knowing what it wants to be. It seems to alternate between a walk in the park (99% of the landscape and delves excluding world bosses) to insanely difficult (think Veteran Maelstrom Arena). So no wonder players have no clear idea about what they can handle and what they can't.

kieso

Riptide wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

I'm going to have to agree with the OP. I don't play this game anymore and haven't played since the stealing system was new

That is a considerable amount of time that no "but" will do. That is before a majority of the group content we are talking about, and in the Psijic days we had virtually zero group content.

Even after looking at builds and whatnot most of them require tons of gold to buy overpriced equipment sold by players who farm the very dungeons you're trying to get into.

No, it isn't. Purple equipment is truly negligable to achieve. Truly.

It isn't an opinion thing. It is just the truth. A person can on their own upgrade 2 trait gear to purple for a very small outlay, or no outlay by doing writs. The process is elementary, easy to find, requires no outside help. Requires not one single drop, from zero to complete would take around 2 weeks casual gaming time max once max level.

Seriously here.

Maybe it's changed for the better now but that's how it was. The fact that I still see threads like this though puts some validity behind it and keeps me from deciding to come back. People can scoff all they want and wave it away but that won't make this game any better nor bring people back to it.

that goes for the other guy who responded to me too.

Riptide

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

If your comparing this game to Ultima and the original Everquest, of course this game is going to be elementary

No Sir. If you compare ESO to UO or EQ the phrase would be "spoon fed".

Really now. Outside of a tiny fraction of the game you can very truly mash one single button for everything.. You can make a viable endgame character with almost no trouble. You can with almost no effort find every single bit of information about the game within seconds.

And UO was by no means an awful, terrible slog either. You did have to find out things on your own though, absolutely.

Anyway, the game is already easy enough. The hell of it it is, the folks in this thread (who actually still play the game) have figured it out and are in a circular argument. Tooltips and a more detailed tutorial, you bet.

But there will always, rightfully, be a curve at endgame. That part of these games are aimed at a different playstyle than someone who has to be told to google something. It is for folks who do it on their own. No tutorial will be able to cover every intricacy, every mechanic, etc - and if it does you will lose the other crowd to sheer boredom.

ESO is hardly the first of these games to have to strike that balance. But especially with 1T, it is arguably the most generous in terms of the casual player and content for them than any game that has ever come before it. It is a truly massive world that scales to you and can be done with one button naked. Really now, full stop.

indirect

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Noobs should find a guild instead of going into the dungeon finder unprepared. Because, you know, if you wanna learn something you gotta actually talk to people. (Crazy, I know right?)

Dunno about you, but I dont find a guild until I know I'ma actually put down roots in a game. If these people are just trying to get their foot in the door, see how it goes, this can and will screw them.

They were CP 200...

Riptide

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Just because a couple of new players that are learning are unable to complete a normal dungeon that does not mean there is something wrong with them, nor how the dungeon/s are designed.

It just happens. Failure is not a dirty, bad, word. When it happens it's not he end of the world. In fact it's a good thing; for when stretched we have clear stimulus grow. Some players will embrace that and look to improve, whilst others will not. Either way is perfectly fine.

The only fault here I think is the thinking that content should be able to be completed first time by everyone. Though diminished there is still some skill involved with normal dungeons. This is especially true for the return version II dungeons where there are often various 'immediate defeat' mechanics in place or other checks, such as a dps check in this case.

Quoted for truth. Entire thread and debate caused because fella finds some folks pugging who struggle. Big game. Heaps of people. Some don't do group content at all for a long stretch. New to it. Cruised through single player content as it is really easy. Go, "oh" and google. Or have to be nudged. Do so, succeed. Don't, wander off to DLC content.

Thats all there is to it.

Doctordarkspawn

Riptide wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

If your comparing this game to Ultima and the original Everquest, of course this game is going to be elementary

No Sir. If you compare ESO to UO or EQ the phrase would be "spoon fed".

Really now. Outside of a tiny fraction of the game you can very truly mash one single button for everything.. You can make a viable endgame character with almost no trouble. You can with almost no effort find every single bit of information about the game within seconds.

And UO was by no means an awful, terrible slog either. You did have to find out things on your own though, absolutely.

Anyway, the game is already easy enough. The hell of it it is, the folks in this thread (who actually still play the game) have figured it out and are in a circular argument. Tooltips and a more detailed tutorial, you bet.

But there will always, rightfully, be a curve at endgame. That part of these games are aimed at a different playstyle than someone who has to be told to google something. It is for folks who do it on their own. No tutorial will be able to cover every intricacy, every mechanic, etc - and if it does you will lose the other crowd to sheer boredom.

ESO is hardly the first of these games to have to strike that balance. But especially with 1T, it is arguably the most generous in terms of the casual player and content for them than any game that has ever come before it. It is a truly massive world that scales to you and can be done with one button naked. Really now, full stop.

There will allways, rightfully, be a curve at endgame. But it does not have to be a cliff, and it does not have to be static. We do not need to simply accept how things are because things are so much better than they were years ago.

You seem stuck in the past, sir. And unobservant. Casual content isn't limited to the overworld. To say casuals need to be happy with the overworld is madness. To say that we should be greatfull things are this good, is with all due respect, -cowardly-.

I will not roll over and remain silent. Far be it from me to demand you be vocal, take off the rose-tinted glasses and other things, but dont suggest I simply accept how things are.

You have forgotten what it was like to first enter this genre. You have forgotten what it is like to ask for help and to be called a *** for it, or maybe you never were. Either way, you have proven yourself unfit to be consulted on these matters, to me at the very least.

Balamoor

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Just because a couple of new players that are learning are unable to complete a normal dungeon that does not mean there is something wrong with them, nor how the dungeon/s are designed.

It just happens. Failure is not a dirty, bad, word. When it happens it's not he end of the world. In fact it's a good thing; for when stretched we have clear stimulus grow. Some players will embrace that and look to improve, whilst others will not. Either way is perfectly fine.

The only fault here I think is the thinking that content should be able to be completed first time by everyone. Though diminished there is still some skill involved with normal dungeons. This is especially true for the return version II dungeons where there are often various 'immediate defeat' mechanics in place or other checks, such as a dps check in this case.

QFT.

I just cut loose a couple of Guild members for being Richards to new players for basically the same thing, there is this stigma maybe it's playing too much LoL or maybe it is generational I don't know and could really care less bottom like act like Douchenozzle to other players get kicked and ignored.... tell me, anyone on my friends list or in my guild to be happy with the overworld and you will get the same finger I gave to Raid or Die Douchnozzles in WoW that told me to STFU and make them water. I think if more guilds had that philosophy we would have a better community.

Riptide

There will allways, rightfully, be a curve at endgame. But it does not have to be a cliff, and it does not have to be static.

It is very, very far from a "cliff". That is the worst sort of hyperbole.

You seem stuck in the past, sir. And unobservant. Casual content isn't limited to the overworld. To say casuals need to be happy with the overworld is madness. To say that we should be greatfull things are this good, is with all due respect, -cowardly-.

Within one page of this thread you say that folks who differ with your opinion are a younger generation of gamers are "shouting" to use google and so forth.

When confronted with the opposite, now it is because of being stuck in the past and being "cowardly"?

That really is absurd.

For what its worth I'm a decorated combat infantry veteran. So when I say absurd I really mean it.

Ad hominem just doesn't cut it. I disagree with you that it is a "cliff", that it is anything like insurmountable. That isn't because I am too young, too old, too anything. It is because of observation.

Good evening, and good luck with your crusade for better tutorials

Doctordarkspawn

Riptide wrote: »

There will allways, rightfully, be a curve at endgame. But it does not have to be a cliff, and it does not have to be static.

It is very, very far from a "cliff". That is the worst sort of hyperbole.

You seem stuck in the past, sir. And unobservant. Casual content isn't limited to the overworld. To say casuals need to be happy with the overworld is madness. To say that we should be greatfull things are this good, is with all due respect, -cowardly-.

Within one page of this thread you say that folks who differ with your opinion are a younger generation of gamers are "shouting" to use google and so forth.

When confronted with the opposite, now it is because of being stuck in the past and being "cowardly"?

That really is absurd.

For what its worth I'm a decorated combat infantry veteran. So when I say absurd I really mean it.

Ad hominem just doesn't cut it. I disagree with you that it is a "cliff", that it is anything like insurmountable. That isn't because I am too young, too old, too anything. It is because of observation.

Good evening, and good luck with your crusade for better tutorials

Your accolades and condescension do not mask the problems with your arguements. Good day. (Oh. And next time, adress all the arguements if your going to post. It's rather annoying, people cherrypicking and missing the point because of it.)

This is pretty much what you have to slog through every time you want to get changes made to this game. A bunch of these people, both old and new who abhore change in any form on the basis of "Well I can do it, why cant you?"

Lisening to these people is pointless, they are so narrow minded, blindsided by their own experience they cannot entertain even the slightest viewpoint that disagrees.

I shall state, what I have allways stated. Casual audiences take less to maintain, less to please, and are less likely to spit virtirol at you. And I continue to wonder why this game keeps tossing them away after catering their design to fit them for a year. (In certain aspects, at least.)

When most of the playerbase simply isn't geting the design on a fundemental level, ESO has to be the one to give. You dont walk into a D&D game, sit down, play a lawfull good while everyone else plays chaotic neutral and expect them to conform, if anyone gives, it's you. And ESO needs to do the same. It will be better for it, as this has been a long time coming.

Narvuntien

How I played to level 50.

Some NPC gives me something for finishing a quest, I compare its stats to what I have if it goes green equip. Ok I worked out I wanted medium armor stamina stats so not quite that bad by close to that.

Now apperently and I am still not sure.. doing different types of challanges in the overworld gives different types of gear... so since I only did quests I ended up with some parts of my armor 10 levels behind easily.. just because I wasn't given anything better during playing the game.

Because i did literially every quest I got to cp130 before finishing the main quest line for one alliance, now if I went off to do cadwells silver I could easily get to 200 cp only doing overworld quests.

There was only a few times in overworld quests that I felt like throwing my keyboard.
The first was "court of the wilderqueen". I rolled dodged off the cliff twice and had to climb back up then I couldn't work out how to get past the fire died multiple times then I got two hander uppercut by the viel inheritence guy at the top a bunch of times.

This was when I learned to use the guild trader for the first time... to buy soul gems. I got to greenshade without any idea how to use the guild stores. Actually I ran into some ESO players at a party and they, people that had been playing longer than me had no idea how to use the guild traders or that they could even use them.

I think there should be tutorial NPCs perhaps with different quest markers over thier head that will explain certain more complicated parts of the game. Clearly there should really be more explaination around the undaunted and dungeons and groups and what the hell are arenas and trails.

Seriously though is dragonstar arena a solo quest? I am scared to go in.

Eleusian

Console badly needs scorecards or other means of damage output tracking. Something better than meet me at Dungeon X for your timed kill.

starkerealm

Destruent wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

There are a few things the game does a really poor job of explaining. I think weapon power/splee power, weapon crit/spell crit are reasonably well explained but here is a list of things that are not well explained or not explained at all:

-light/heavy attacking gives "heroism" and builds ultimate. Same with blocking or healing someone who has the buff.
-heavy attacking gives back resources. I don't think this is mentioned anywhere. How would a new person ever know?
-resource pools also increase damage. In most games resources are separated from damage stats.

This is clearly stated in the tooltips of magicka/stamina. Just read them!

And yet the pools do not affect the "printed" weapon and spell damage on the character sheet. For the longest time, I thought the tooltips were wrong, because increasing stamina or magicka did not increase weapon power or spell power.

That's true and correctly...magicka/stamina increase the damage of your skills but not your weapon/spelldamage....it's exactly what is stated in the tooltips. You cannot blame the game for this...

While correct, the way it's displayed in game can leave a reasonable player to assume that the tooltips are bugged. This was especially true back when the attribute points would actually show you what they'd affect (or appeared to show you what they'd affect) before being committed.

So, while correct, the tooltips are a bit (unnecessarily) obtuse.

Riejael

I'm a bit conflicted here.

When I played Everquest back in 2001, it was my first MMO. I was as clueless as anyone could possibly get. I didn't know even what the stats did other than STR made you do more damage (but not how) and carry more stuff, STA gave you more HP, and INT or WIS gave mana (took a bit longer to know which did what for which class).

I didn't know roles either. I remember playing a Warrior and joining a group and being told to go Tank. WTF is go tank mean? I'm almost ashamed to admit that it took a good while and a year into World of Warcraft before I started really understanding the inner mathmatics behind these games.

Anyway.. back to EQ for a minute. Here's an image:



That is a mitigation AC (which is different than the avoidance AC) algorhythym for Everquest. Yeah.. good luck understanding that. After many years, a dev actually posted a 26 step essay on how Armor Class is done in EQ. Holy damn... Lets put it this way.. I'm not so embarassed having been clueless in EQ for a few years.

But even still, lets say I played a Bard or Enchanter back then. I wouldn't have known how much CHA to stack. I know now that every 10pts gives 1% added memblur chance on mezes. I know what the softcap is for reducing resist chances are. I know now that STR is more important for an enchanter than INT. Why? Because it allows you to carry more loot, all INT did was increase mana, which as an chanter you don't need.

Yeah.. its crazy. Some MMOs can be crazy.

When I played EQ, our resources were limited. Most of us had BINDERs, as in pen and paper in a 3-ring binder full of notes and hand drawn maps. Wiki's weren't a thing yet. Resource sites such as alakazam were available. But were slowly updated. Hell many of the first maps on EQAtlas were (and still are) hand drawn on graph paper.

Nowadays I can play a new MMO and learn the math and the mechanics rather quickly. I know where to google search and I use guides and builds as a reference to make my own unique creations that work well for me. I can raid, I can PVP, and all that with the best of them. It took me a while to get to this point.

Now I'm against saying "Well I slugged throuh it.. so noobs should too!"

Sorta anyway.

There IS a certain level of hardship any new player should experience. It gives them a level of appreciation for the struggle others have done and for the development of the game itself. For example, if a newbie comes in with a great build, is PL'd to 160, and cleans out Wayrest Sewers I already knowing the strats. They're just not going to appreciate someone else's struggle through the dungeon who doesn't have those resources. They'll get smug without any reason to be.

Whenever my friends try a new MMORPG together, we try to get through alot of content while it is fresh and new to us. To come up with our own strats, builds, and other methods. We usually succeed. We sometimes find things other more established players have missed. It gives us another point of view.

What a new player needs to do. Is keep an open mind. Accept help and tips from other players. Be OPEN about being a new player. I just did White Gold Tower a few hours ago. Ended up wiping on the boss with the portals and sigil because someone got the 'buff' and didn't attack the portals.

What ticked me off.. a tad bit. Was I asked if anyone didn't know the fight. No one responded. After the wipe someone finally piped up. I was.. patient thankfully. The tank and I (who is a friend of mine) walked the group through it. No problem. We cleared it on the second try. Point here though.. is if you don't know something, or haven't ran a dungeon before.. you've got to let your group know.

Booting noobs out of Normal isn't really a thing. Well its not something I would personally tolerate. Booting noobs from vet dungeons is a necessity. Run that stuff on normal first. But I'm preaching to the choir here. Many newbies won't be reading this. But if any of you have newbies in guild or have friends, pass the message along.

Anyway.. as far as having good builds and rotations. That's just something people have to learn on their own. I mean whenever I play a new game, I look or ask about the nuances in said game. Unfortunately newer MMO players won't even know what to ask or what to look for. That comes with experience. No system can tell them that. I doubt a dev is going to make a tutorial testing someone's ability to animation cancel. That's borderline a bug.

What they need is someone to take them under their wing. This is an MMO. That means you've got to interact with others. Its THROUGH that interaction that makes one better.

I've said in just about every game I've played that there are three aspects to being successful in these online games.

What you Know.
What you Have.
Who you Know.

What you know is your personal skill and experience. What you have is your character, build, gear, and unlocks. But Who you Know is the most over looked. That's your ability to work with others, your friends, guildies, faction (for PVP), and ability to work as a team and/or leadership and personality. New players exponentially benefit from who they know as they will quickly learn the ropes, especially if they just started their MMO experience.

I don't think much is needed to be added or changed for new players. This isn't a single player game. Players aren't learning in a vacuum. Those that choose to cut 1/3 of their aspects from their gameplay should likewise be cut by 1/3 of their effectiveness and potential. Well.. it will be more as those three aspects together are greater than the sum of their parts.

To put it shortly, there is some things a new player just needs to figure out. And at some point in time they will better themselves simply by communicating with another player. Even two new players playing together is a great thing as they will be able to see the game differently and two heads are always better than one.

But we also have to be patient in content where new players will be prevalent. That's our responsibility, at the very least.

Destruent

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem? The problem from people like me was, we hit vet ranks, threw our keyboards against the wall and abruptly stoped playing. Which nearly killed this game. There was something to be said for beating Molag Bal in vanilla (And I did, even though my account got eaten by Zenimax when I changed ISP's) But the vet rank zones were so hard, you couldn't solo them. People like me left in droves for something a little less teeth-clenching, and the hardcore audience complained about the grind.

The problem we face now, is this game has been shoddily converted into a more casual experience, and is going -back- to that hardcore thing. The game does not know what it wants to be. Does it wanna keep hardcore players? Then the casuals get told to suck it and leave. Does it want to appeal to everyone? Then the hardcore players whine. The game does not know what it wants to be and until it figures that out we probably wont get a coherent experience.

That's so wrong...2.5 years ago i was like the biggest noob and casual ever. I used crappy skills, bad sets and i'm sure i had my attributes distributed as wrong as possible. I also didn't know anything about dots, animation cancelling or whatever. And know what? I still soloed all quests in the basegame back in those days. I also didn't buy anything and used only what i could craft myself with the materials i found in open world.
The only thing, which i may did different from those who think it was too hard was, that i tried to improve and asked a lot for help with skills/tactics in trading guilds. And it was so much fun to improve and finally beat those damn quest bosses.
So pls stop with that" impossible to solo in teh beginning"-crap. It was a challenge, but people who completed these zones were able to play the game and knew their characters. A learning procces which is not even slightly neccessary nowadays.

MissKiwiana

Vaoh wrote: »

Redirect to Deltia.

That man has helped so many noobs it's pretty incredible tbh. He's perfect for helping people learn the ropes and use easy but effective builds.

He has helped me in a huge way with my new char.

I have 2 vets one a sorc and other a dk both of these chars are very poorly built I pretty much just chose skills and passives and spent CP on what I thought were best for those chars.. I soloed the game and as much of the content I could do I did on my own.

I googled but never for builds or guides just for quest help if I couldn't find a certain NPC or find out where a specific place was in the ESO world.

I'm an older female and far to proud to ask for help so when the content got to difficult I just quit the game.

I dunno how many toons I have made and then deleted due to my poor decision making till I finally stumbled across Deltias website from a youtube video watching his video on loot he'd gotten from the 200 keys from Undaunted pledges.

So ... after like 6-8 months away from ESO that video drew me back to play and using one of his guides and I find my game has new character.(no pun intended)

As for my 2 vets I am undecided on what to do with them as they really are a mess.

This game is complicated and not the easiest to understand how things work. I come from playing WoW for 10 years that was an easy game to figure out. ESO however for me is and was extremely difficult one to figure out why I wasn't doing so well both with combat skills and my overall survival. But that road is all behind me now.

I'm in a couple of guilds now thanks to @Nestor and with Deltias helpful guides I can only go forward.

Ivehn

ESO is the first MMO game I’ve ever player, in fact it is the first game I played since, er, Pokemon Red on GameBoy, so to say it has been a learning curve would be quite the understatement My first character was an altmer dragonknight, my attribute points were evenly distributed amongst all pools (it seemed like the logical thing to do), and I used a destruction/restoration staff combination. I gave up shortly after reaching level 20 because I found the content too difficult, and I wasn’t really making any progress. I picked up the game half a year later, and started following online guides for my new characters, and they basically helped me to understand classes and roles a bit better. I kept learning even when I was following an unsuitable build, for instance, when I created my templar healer a few months ago, I mistakenly tried to copy a PvP build that included a sword/shield and dual wield combination, and this was the reason that I finally learned how to equip two weapons, so many months into the game - I was that clueless! It was also the reason I managed to get aggressive warhorn and mystic orbs, so I don’t regret that PvP stint at all. My point is that most of the features in this game are not obvious to the new player, and it will be a slow process even when one follows a guide. Everything I’ve learned is via trial-and-error, trying a skill, seeing how it works, and then proceeding from there, and though it’s a great way to learn, it’s nevertheless tiresome, and I feel it can take a very long time for an inexperienced player to really start enjoying the game. I have done some vet dungeons in their hard mode now, but still, I would never consider normal dungeons as being only for noobs, because I’ve experienced how overwhelming this game can be when you don’t have a clue (I don't think cp’s are really the end-all indication of game prowess, especially after that double xp event). Also, since I only PUG, certain normal dungeons can be quite the challenge, depending on group composition, and sometimes I have to heavily adapt my gameplay, but I’ve actually become a better player for it. My best advice from my ESO adventures is to seek out guides, try different skills/gear out and see what works best in a given setting, and above all be forthcoming when you are inexperienced; most players are generous with their suggestions, and this will save you time from trying to figure things out on your own*.

*Like when a person explained how to get a perfect roe - I thought it was just another fish that you could catch, albeit a very rare one, so for months I've been either selling or destroying my caught fish. The horror.

Rva_Kun

Every time I try and do a pledge thru group finder I remember why I prefer doing the pledge with my guildies.
Constantly getting people with like 200-300 CP. No DPS at all lol and they die way too much on easy content. lol
Then you've got the people like you said, light attacking bosses most of the times.

kyle.wilson

Most of the normal dungeons aren't too difficult. So when I get several new players, I try to be patient and explain the techniques needed on each boss. That is if I remember them (I do way more pvp than pve content)
But, yesterday my patience was tested. We were doing normal white gold tower. I had a lvl 48 and a cp60 that didn't use either food or drinks on their char. After repeated food check suggestions I had to directly speak to them. Both, "never use food" . fortunately I was carrying scaled health and health regen food. (I was the tank, which I'm working on for pvp eventually) If they hadn't taken the food I would have dropped group. 14 and 16k health is not enough to keep you from getting 1 shot even in normal dungeons.

To sum it up. My only req for a "normal" is that people actually use food and listen to advice when needed.

visionality

Woeler wrote: »

Noobs should find a guild instead of going into the dungeon finder unprepared. Because, you know, if you wanna learn something you gotta actually talk to people. (Crazy, I know right?)

Hm, have seen "expert guild advice" for new players that made me cringe internally. Like "if you're a DPS, you have to do 25k damage otherwise you're not fit for the game" - not even asking about player level, gear or cp.

I would rather prefer some kind of "enforced qualifying" for the role you want to do in a group dungeon, including an explanation of what to change to really qualify. E.g. it would be great if ppl could only enlist as tank if they have a taunt on their skillbar or if dds would have to pass a minimal dps-test. Same for healers ofc. - Could even be a part of the undaunted storyline.

ph8te

I did a thousand quests before is started doing proper endgame stuff like dungeons and trials (I did my first dungeon at VR10, CP 400, after leveling 2 toons). I think the biggest problem with that has been that I learnt bad habits especially with rotations. In solo you can spam the light attacks and occasional heavy attacks. Then throw in an ability or two and you're moving along and you start thinking you know the game.

Once I joined a guild, and they had TS, everything changed. Things were properly explained to me and I started to really enjoy the game. We figured out that I naturally have certain weaknesses (finger dexterity being one of them) and created a character and class that overcomes the weaknesses. I changed from DPS to Healer and now I compete in vet trials.

The problem with a lot of CP players, whether 50, 100, 200 or even 561 is that they think they know the game because they have done their time in SOLO play. If you continuously spam Crystal Fragments or endlessly light attack on your bow, we know you do not have the experience or expertise for normal dungeons, let alone vet. Group PVE and PVP is a whole different ballgame and when more experienced players offer advice such as making sure the group has done the food checks and gear and weapons, and where to stand during boss fights, people should listen.

Getting told to "f-off, I know what I am doing" in a PUG because you see a player with 12500 max health, or when running a vet trial and players refusing to use TS or Discord is why a lot of senior players don't take the time to help "inexperienced' players.

So, my message to all 'noob' players, whether below level 50 or CP 561, If you are not 100% familiar with what you are doing, listen to the advice from more experienced players. It is no fun having to do a 2 hour vet Fungal Grotto I run, when, if we all work together, the same run can be done in 15 to 20 minutes, leaving time for another dungeon or two.