"Normal is for noobs"

Destruent

starkerealm wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

There are a few things the game does a really poor job of explaining. I think weapon power/splee power, weapon crit/spell crit are reasonably well explained but here is a list of things that are not well explained or not explained at all:

-light/heavy attacking gives "heroism" and builds ultimate. Same with blocking or healing someone who has the buff.
-heavy attacking gives back resources. I don't think this is mentioned anywhere. How would a new person ever know?
-resource pools also increase damage. In most games resources are separated from damage stats.

This is clearly stated in the tooltips of magicka/stamina. Just read them!

And yet the pools do not affect the "printed" weapon and spell damage on the character sheet. For the longest time, I thought the tooltips were wrong, because increasing stamina or magicka did not increase weapon power or spell power.

That's true and correctly...magicka/stamina increase the damage of your skills but not your weapon/spelldamage....it's exactly what is stated in the tooltips. You cannot blame the game for this...

AuldWolf

Acrolas is one of the few people talking any sense. Instead of, you know, puffing out chests, preening, and acting all foppish.

Here's the thing: It's a video game. Here's another thing: It's a video game that requires no skill, only time. I'm sorry, okay? It's true. I've pointed this out before, but you're not speed running Mega Man 1, here. You're not doing anything skilful when you're wearing purples and using the very best min-maxed builds. You're just a clone of everyone else, with some vague idea of wanting to be cool, only left frustrated that you can't achieve it.

And that's the psychology behind the competition in this game. Everyone has a vague idea of 'cool' but no one actually knows what they want, or how to really achieve anything. So instead, it comes down to these simplistic comparisons of build or CP level. And that's poisoning the well for everyone. I think it's fair to say that I can speak for 90~ per cent of those playing an MMO when I say that we play for fun.

The vast majority don't have delusions of hardcore. As opposed to grandeur, in this case.

For us to move forward, MMO developers need to stop encouraging this idea. All veteran dungeons require are more grinding for better gear to help the game play itself. That's not hardcore, that's time investment. None of the people who're doing this could speed run Mega Man 1. And none of them could do a group dungeon in only greens with an average build and only one bar. In a group even, let alone solo.

We really need to just burst this bubble, because it is a delusion. There's no such thing as 'hardcore' in MMO. When I see a person in yellow/purple gear, all I can do is shake my head and think that that's a person who's wasted their life. Again, I'm sorry, but it's true. It doesn't impress me. I'll say it again -- I'd be impressed by the person who doesn't wear that gear and can still do the content. But how many of these high CP braggers could actually do that? None. None of them.

What's happening here is this: timeSpent = visibleBraggingRights

That happens in every MMO. It leads to power creep, increasing numbers, bad balance, and a game that locks a lot of people out of content that they'd like to play. The game suffers for that, because you're stopping a massive amount of people from playing your game. Wildstar was all 'hardcore' content. Wildstar is very dead.

Why can't we just go back to playing for fun? And if we want challenges, why can't we set our own instead of having these illusory faux efforts? It's just that people want to feel like special snowflakes when they aren't. An MMO lets them put in more time than anyone with a job or real life responsibilities can, in order to lord it over everyone else. That's really, truly sad. And it's why MMOs have a certain... reputation. And a very serious image problem that accompanies that reputation.

You play an MMO if you have no life, that's the general consensus. Being an Elder Scrolls MMO, ESO really would do well to move away from this idea by creating an accessible MMO that people can just have fun with by fooling around, and learning at their own pace. By encouraging this intense toxicity fuelled by people who desperately want to achieve some kind of hardcore status, but can't? All that's happening is the toxicity we see day after day. Where people get kicked from groups for not having high enough of a CP rating, or chastised for not having the best builds.

Normal should be accessible to casuals of any group size. Then you can add Hyper Elite Uber X-Treme Accolade Supreme Plus R if you must on top of Veteran as a higher level difficulty, but not one that offers exclusive content or rewards. By offering exclusive content and rewards in this way, ESO is feeding into the negative MMO image of MMOs just beinf for people who have no life. Which is going to see it buried by the next MMO that actually overcomes this. Or, you know, ZOS could actually bother to tackle this and not fade into stagnant obsolescence.

When a game isn't about being fun any more, it's failed as a game.

LadyNalcarya

AuldWolf wrote: »

Here's the thing: It's a video game. Here's another thing: It's a video game that requires no skill, only time. I'm sorry, okay? It's true. I've pointed this out before, but you're not speed running Mega Man 1, here. You're not doing anything skilful when you're wearing purples and using the very best min-maxed builds.

If that would be the case, anyone who copied a build from youtube would be indestructible and would melt any bosses just by looking at them. But thats not the case. Its actually easy to prove: if you dont believe, try to copy any meta build (for example, on pts; youll get free tempers, vMA weapons and other stuff) and compare your results to the original.
This game isnt difficult, yes, but its still requires some "skills".

IronCrystal

You shake your head when you see someone in purple and up gear? I shake my head in disappointment if I see someone running group dungeons in less than purple gear. Seriously guys, it costs so little to upgrade it to purple.

I'm sorry, but there is loads of skill involved in this game. My Titles and vMA weapons prove it. Not anyone can complete difficult content. Time to learn the mechanics? Maybe. But you still need to be good enough to actually do it.

I'm sorry but BiS gear does not play the game for you. It enables you to do better. And yes, I can easily solo normal dungeons and even some vet dungeons on Stam sorcs.

The problem is that people don't learn what actually helps them do more damage, do more healing, stay alive better while doing overworld content. They hit a big wall when they come to doing group content because there is a big jump from overland to normal dungeons.

Sure people can get carried through it. But imagine a group of 4 equally skilled players that are new to dungeons. You think they would get through it?

Bobby_V_Rockit

I wear BiS gear (TBS+velidreth) all gold all kuta infused all divines/sharpened/robust. I cant beat any veteran mode or vMA... so no, good gear does not play for you and lack of skill makes it just as useless.

I only have it cos of time spent playing content I can do and building up a surplus of required resources

Doctordarkspawn

Destruent wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

There are a few things the game does a really poor job of explaining. I think weapon power/splee power, weapon crit/spell crit are reasonably well explained but here is a list of things that are not well explained or not explained at all:

-light/heavy attacking gives "heroism" and builds ultimate. Same with blocking or healing someone who has the buff.
-heavy attacking gives back resources. I don't think this is mentioned anywhere. How would a new person ever know?
-resource pools also increase damage. In most games resources are separated from damage stats.

This is clearly stated in the tooltips of magicka/stamina. Just read them!

@Destruent

The tooltip is as follows:

Determines how many magicka abilities you can cast and how effective those abilities are. Increases magicka recovery. Damage scales off max spell damage.

I dont know about you, but when I see damage listed seperately, I think 'effective' means duration or something else like range. An auxillary stat because it's listed differently.

I had to be expressly told that it scaled back in the day and it's as stupid then as it was now. Quit white knighting. I -can- blame the game for not being expressly clear about a game mechanic, and I -will-, because that wording is misleading.

Destruent

Hm...then this is maybe the only description which is correct in german, but wrong in english

In German it's like: Determines how many magicka-abilities you can cast and effects their effectiveness. Your staff-attacks scale with your max-magicka.

edit: can you provide a screenshot of this description? i can't rly believe the part about regeneration and damage tbh...

Doctordarkspawn

Destruent wrote: »

Hm...then this is maybe the only description which is correct in german, but wrong in english

In German it's like: Determines how many magicka-abilities you can cast and effects their effectiveness. Your staff-attacks scale with your max-magicka.

edit: can you provide a screenshot of this description? i can't rly believe the part about regeneration and damage tbh...

https://s17.postimg.org/88npitpv1/Screenshot_20161210_183608.png

@Destruent

My memory was apparently slipshot as it is still staff-attacks but I'm still one of those guys what when damage is not explicitly mentioned, I tend to think auxillary stats. Like if you say accuracy, I tend to think chance to hit. By not puting 'damage' on that tooltip their being needlessly misleading.

Still, you get the general idea. The way it's currently written, and the fact it's never brought up in any in game tutorial means that plenty of people are not even gonna see -that- much, I know most noobs dont.

Edit: The fact it only mentions staff damage might reasonibly lead you to conclude this relates only to staff attacks. They need to be more specific.

disintegr8

When I started playing this game, on PS4, it being my first ever MMO, I was frustrated by the lack of guidance and assistance provided by the game itself. At the end of the day it is a video game and should not require you to use the internet to figure out how basic game content works.

The game does not do even a reasonable job of telling people how to level up the crafting skills, so how can we expect it to teach people what dungeons or trials are all about. Telling people to use google to learn how to play should not be necessary - suggesting they people use google to improve their game is fine.

The game should provide enough information for someone to build a character, select appropriate skills, attributes and gear without you resorting to google, but it does not do that. This was fine when a new character started with 'low level' content and if you could not beat a boss you went away, leveled up a little, came back and whooped him. This is not the same now in 1T.

And upgrading your gear from blue, or even green, to purple is not going to make any difference if you do not know how to play. If I try and tank in light armour with a bow and don't know what a taunt is, it would not matter if my gear is gold - I am going to fail when the group expects me to keep aggro and survive.

mr_wazzabi

AuldWolf wrote: »

Acrolas is one of the few people talking any sense. Instead of, you know, puffing out chests, preening, and acting all foppish.

Here's the thing: It's a video game. Here's another thing: It's a video game that requires no skill, only time. I'm sorry, okay? It's true. I've pointed this out before, but you're not speed running Mega Man 1, here. You're not doing anything skilful when you're wearing purples and using the very best min-maxed builds. You're just a clone of everyone else, with some vague idea of wanting to be cool, only left frustrated that you can't achieve it.

And that's the psychology behind the competition in this game. Everyone has a vague idea of 'cool' but no one actually knows what they want, or how to really achieve anything. So instead, it comes down to these simplistic comparisons of build or CP level. And that's poisoning the well for everyone. I think it's fair to say that I can speak for 90~ per cent of those playing an MMO when I say that we play for fun.

The vast majority don't have delusions of hardcore. As opposed to grandeur, in this case.

For us to move forward, MMO developers need to stop encouraging this idea. All veteran dungeons require are more grinding for better gear to help the game play itself. That's not hardcore, that's time investment. None of the people who're doing this could speed run Mega Man 1. And none of them could do a group dungeon in only greens with an average build and only one bar. In a group even, let alone solo.

We really need to just burst this bubble, because it is a delusion. There's no such thing as 'hardcore' in MMO. When I see a person in yellow/purple gear, all I can do is shake my head and think that that's a person who's wasted their life. Again, I'm sorry, but it's true. It doesn't impress me. I'll say it again -- I'd be impressed by the person who doesn't wear that gear and can still do the content. But how many of these high CP braggers could actually do that? None. None of them.

What's happening here is this: timeSpent = visibleBraggingRights

That happens in every MMO. It leads to power creep, increasing numbers, bad balance, and a game that locks a lot of people out of content that they'd like to play. The game suffers for that, because you're stopping a massive amount of people from playing your game. Wildstar was all 'hardcore' content. Wildstar is very dead.

Why can't we just go back to playing for fun? And if we want challenges, why can't we set our own instead of having these illusory faux efforts? It's just that people want to feel like special snowflakes when they aren't. An MMO lets them put in more time than anyone with a job or real life responsibilities can, in order to lord it over everyone else. That's really, truly sad. And it's why MMOs have a certain... reputation. And a very serious image problem that accompanies that reputation.

You play an MMO if you have no life, that's the general consensus. Being an Elder Scrolls MMO, ESO really would do well to move away from this idea by creating an accessible MMO that people can just have fun with by fooling around, and learning at their own pace. By encouraging this intense toxicity fuelled by people who desperately want to achieve some kind of hardcore status, but can't? All that's happening is the toxicity we see day after day. Where people get kicked from groups for not having high enough of a CP rating, or chastised for not having the best builds.

Normal should be accessible to casuals of any group size. Then you can add Hyper Elite Uber X-Treme Accolade Supreme Plus R if you must on top of Veteran as a higher level difficulty, but not one that offers exclusive content or rewards. By offering exclusive content and rewards in this way, ESO is feeding into the negative MMO image of MMOs just beinf for people who have no life. Which is going to see it buried by the next MMO that actually overcomes this. Or, you know, ZOS could actually bother to tackle this and not fade into stagnant obsolescence.

When a game isn't about being fun any more, it's failed as a game.

You have some good points, but being in purple or gold gear doesn't mean you have no life. My guildies and I all fit into that category and all work full time jobs. Many of us are married with kids too.

Hate to break it to you, but getting all purple gear is EASY. Do the easiest dungeon on vet mode and you can theoretically have a full set piece of purple gear, as vet mode ONLY DROPS PURPLE.

By the way, there is content that DOES require skill AND gear and you can compare their difficulty to Mega Man and Contra. They are vet maelstrom arena, vet dragon star arena and Maw of Lorkhaj Trial. Try running through vet maelstrom and tell me that it doesn' t take skill.

Doctordarkspawn

And a day later, I met someone with max CP, who's rotation was 'rending slashes, rapid strikes, repeat.'

People can get to max CP without learning basic rotation. And harder content isn't gonna give them insight into it.

leeux

What ZOS should do is go the Secret World route and add an in-game browser that can be used to access help resources (even videos), then create a WIKI and generate a structure for it, fill it with basic information, and then allow players to correct/fix/edit/add whatever is needed, or when it's changed by patches.

Then the in-game UI can have tooltips that have links to suck wiki, that directly points to the relevant article, and open the in-game browser.

Is not that difficult, any competent developer can manage to produce this in a couple of months.

Doctordarkspawn

leeux wrote: »

What ZOS should do is go the Secret World route and add an in-game browser that can be used to access help resources (even videos), then create a WIKI and generate a structure for it, fill it with basic information, and then allow players to correct/fix/edit/add whatever is needed, or when it's changed by patches.

Then the in-game UI can have tooltips that have links to suck wiki, that directly points to the relevant article, and open the in-game browser.

Is not that difficult, any competent developer can manage to produce this in a couple of months.

I'd agree. If your going to -let- the community do the work, at least give them credit and structure to do it with.

Destruent

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Hm...then this is maybe the only description which is correct in german, but wrong in english

In German it's like: Determines how many magicka-abilities you can cast and effects their effectiveness. Your staff-attacks scale with your max-magicka.

edit: can you provide a screenshot of this description? i can't rly believe the part about regeneration and damage tbh...

https://s17.postimg.org/88npitpv1/Screenshot_20161210_183608.png

@Destruent

My memory was apparently slipshot as it is still staff-attacks but I'm still one of those guys what when damage is not explicitly mentioned, I tend to think auxillary stats. Like if you say accuracy, I tend to think chance to hit. By not puting 'damage' on that tooltip their being needlessly misleading.

Still, you get the general idea. The way it's currently written, and the fact it's never brought up in any in game tutorial means that plenty of people are not even gonna see -that- much, I know most noobs dont.

Edit: The fact it only mentions staff damage might reasonibly lead you to conclude this relates only to staff attacks. They need to be more specific.

And yet, this description is entirely right. Nothing wrong with it.
It just says:
- magicka let you cast magica-consuming spells
- increases the effectiveness of them
- staff-weapon-attacks scale with magicka

if you don't understand it, it's imo not the games fault.

Although i'd prefer a better tutorial (especially about animation cancelling), the game itself provides a lot more information than some people seem to think and use.

If you want to learn the games basics you can do it with the given information, to master it, you will have to ask other people for advice (which isn't a bad thing itself).

Doctordarkspawn

Destruent wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Hm...then this is maybe the only description which is correct in german, but wrong in english

In German it's like: Determines how many magicka-abilities you can cast and effects their effectiveness. Your staff-attacks scale with your max-magicka.

edit: can you provide a screenshot of this description? i can't rly believe the part about regeneration and damage tbh...

https://s17.postimg.org/88npitpv1/Screenshot_20161210_183608.png

@Destruent

My memory was apparently slipshot as it is still staff-attacks but I'm still one of those guys what when damage is not explicitly mentioned, I tend to think auxillary stats. Like if you say accuracy, I tend to think chance to hit. By not puting 'damage' on that tooltip their being needlessly misleading.

Still, you get the general idea. The way it's currently written, and the fact it's never brought up in any in game tutorial means that plenty of people are not even gonna see -that- much, I know most noobs dont.

Edit: The fact it only mentions staff damage might reasonibly lead you to conclude this relates only to staff attacks. They need to be more specific.

And yet, this description is entirely right. Nothing wrong with it.
It just says:
- magicka let you cast magica-consuming spells
- increases the effectiveness of them
- staff-weapon-attacks scale with magicka

if you don't understand it, it's imo not the games fault.

Although i'd prefer a better tutorial (especially about animation cancelling), the game itself provides a lot more information than some people seem to think and use.

If you want to learn the games basics you can do it with the given information, to master it, you will have to ask other people for advice (which isn't a bad thing itself).

Dont know what to tell you man, because alot of people arrent geting it because of how it's written. And when this game is -this- hostile to new players, having trouble geting them ready for endgame and the community being as toxic as can be, we dont have alot of options.

Destruent

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Hm...then this is maybe the only description which is correct in german, but wrong in english

In German it's like: Determines how many magicka-abilities you can cast and effects their effectiveness. Your staff-attacks scale with your max-magicka.

edit: can you provide a screenshot of this description? i can't rly believe the part about regeneration and damage tbh...

https://s17.postimg.org/88npitpv1/Screenshot_20161210_183608.png

@Destruent

My memory was apparently slipshot as it is still staff-attacks but I'm still one of those guys what when damage is not explicitly mentioned, I tend to think auxillary stats. Like if you say accuracy, I tend to think chance to hit. By not puting 'damage' on that tooltip their being needlessly misleading.

Still, you get the general idea. The way it's currently written, and the fact it's never brought up in any in game tutorial means that plenty of people are not even gonna see -that- much, I know most noobs dont.

Edit: The fact it only mentions staff damage might reasonibly lead you to conclude this relates only to staff attacks. They need to be more specific.

And yet, this description is entirely right. Nothing wrong with it.
It just says:
- magicka let you cast magica-consuming spells
- increases the effectiveness of them
- staff-weapon-attacks scale with magicka

if you don't understand it, it's imo not the games fault.

Although i'd prefer a better tutorial (especially about animation cancelling), the game itself provides a lot more information than some people seem to think and use.

If you want to learn the games basics you can do it with the given information, to master it, you will have to ask other people for advice (which isn't a bad thing itself).

Dont know what to tell you man, because alot of people arrent geting it because of how it's written. And when this game is -this- hostile to new players, having trouble geting them ready for endgame and the community being as toxic as can be, we dont have alot of options.

It's still possible to learn the basics with the information provided by the game, if you want to...
Although, if you want to endgame-ready you have to do more than just reading/understanding tooltips. you will have to do your own tests and talk with your groupmembers. that's just how it works.

Doctordarkspawn

Destruent wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Hm...then this is maybe the only description which is correct in german, but wrong in english

In German it's like: Determines how many magicka-abilities you can cast and effects their effectiveness. Your staff-attacks scale with your max-magicka.

edit: can you provide a screenshot of this description? i can't rly believe the part about regeneration and damage tbh...

https://s17.postimg.org/88npitpv1/Screenshot_20161210_183608.png

@Destruent

My memory was apparently slipshot as it is still staff-attacks but I'm still one of those guys what when damage is not explicitly mentioned, I tend to think auxillary stats. Like if you say accuracy, I tend to think chance to hit. By not puting 'damage' on that tooltip their being needlessly misleading.

Still, you get the general idea. The way it's currently written, and the fact it's never brought up in any in game tutorial means that plenty of people are not even gonna see -that- much, I know most noobs dont.

Edit: The fact it only mentions staff damage might reasonibly lead you to conclude this relates only to staff attacks. They need to be more specific.

And yet, this description is entirely right. Nothing wrong with it.
It just says:
- magicka let you cast magica-consuming spells
- increases the effectiveness of them
- staff-weapon-attacks scale with magicka

if you don't understand it, it's imo not the games fault.

Although i'd prefer a better tutorial (especially about animation cancelling), the game itself provides a lot more information than some people seem to think and use.

If you want to learn the games basics you can do it with the given information, to master it, you will have to ask other people for advice (which isn't a bad thing itself).

Dont know what to tell you man, because alot of people arrent geting it because of how it's written. And when this game is -this- hostile to new players, having trouble geting them ready for endgame and the community being as toxic as can be, we dont have alot of options.

It's still possible to learn the basics with the information provided by the game, if you want to...
Although, if you want to endgame-ready you have to do more than just reading/understanding tooltips. you will have to do your own tests and talk with your groupmembers. that's just how it works.

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. I'm just not going to continue like every other time because you either dont get it, or dont want to get it. (You could comprehend what I'm saying, you just dont want to, to use your own arguement.)

The tooltips need to be reworked and parts of the tutorial, maybe even just a spot near the end where one of the NPC's stops you and goes 'wait! Your fighting like that? Really? Let me give you pointers' and just give people the information that way, if the game does not wanna do tooltips.

Since this original thread starting I've checked everywhere, for somewhere that expressly states it in no uncertain terms. Even under the 'magicka and stamina' section of the tutorials section in the helm menu, it isn't stated or even touched upon. The ability bar is barely touched upon, and the most usefull thing I actually found was a complete description of all existing synergies and their effects.

This game needs to evolve to cope with how un-user friendly the designers have made it, by slowly removing features and injecting new design that didn't mesh. Thus is the length of my proposal formally, add sample builds, add a concrete tutorial about this somewhere, point people do it, and that's it.

Destruent

ok....so just look at the most common "mistakes" people make on their way to the endgame and what the game provides to avoid them (only pve-wise):

1. mixing stam and magicka-weapons: Read the tooltip of magicka/stamina and you'll see that they scale from different stats. You should now get the idea, that's it is not the best idea to mix them
2. heavy armor for DPS: if you'd read the arnor passives, it should be obviously, that heavy is not meant for DPS and that medium/light are better choices.
3. tanks not using a taunt: if you look at the skillines you will see a skill which taunts an enemy and which is marked as a "tankskill". You should also see, that bosses don't attack you reliable, if you don't use that skill.
4. DDs using mostly lightattacks: why should something which is free to cast be more efficient than something which drains ressources?
5. spamming dots: if you read the description of the skills, you'll see a duration of them. It should be common sense, that it is pointless to reapply them before they run out.
6. not using anything for aoe: by comparing the numbers between your aoe-spam and the ST-spam you should be able to see, that with a lot of enemys the aoe-skill is better
7. DDs stacking HP: while this is ok in the beginning, with reading the tooltips, you should see that with more stam/magicka youu'll do more dps and you should therefore reduce your HP to get more of them...


are these enough examples? With a little bit of thinking, most big mistakes can be avoided. Sure, you won't be doing everything right, but you will be "good" enough to do your job in dungeons. For more you will have to test things and compare them.
Would it be great to have better descriptions/tutorials? yes
Can you blame the game for such big mistakes? No

Bobby_V_Rockit

Destruent wrote: »

ok....so just look at the most common "mistakes" people make on their way to the endgame and what the game provides to avoid them (only pve-wise):

1. mixing stam and magicka-weapons: Read the tooltip of magicka/stamina and you'll see that they scale from different stats. You should now get the idea, that's it is not the best idea to mix them
2. heavy armor for DPS: if you'd read the arnor passives, it should be obviously, that heavy is not meant for DPS and that medium/light are better choices.
3. tanks not using a taunt: if you look at the skillines you will see a skill which taunts an enemy and which is marked as a "tankskill". You should also see, that bosses don't attack you reliable, if you don't use that skill.
4. DDs using mostly lightattacks: why should something which is free to cast be more efficient than something which drains ressources?
5. spamming dots: if you read the description of the skills, you'll see a duration of them. It should be common sense, that it is pointless to reapply them before they run out.
6. not using anything for aoe: by comparing the numbers between your aoe-spam and the ST-spam you should be able to see, that with a lot of enemys the aoe-skill is better
7. DDs stacking HP: while this is ok in the beginning, with reading the tooltips, you should see that with more stam/magicka youu'll do more dps and you should therefore reduce your HP to get more of them...


are these enough examples? With a little bit of thinking, most big mistakes can be avoided. Sure, you won't be doing everything right, but you will be "good" enough to do your job in dungeons. For more you will have to test things and compare them.
Would it be great to have better descriptions/tutorials? yes
Can you blame the game for such big mistakes? No

You are correct in the obvious truth of the aforementioned facts. However, the player does not actually need to follow any of it to easily beat the solo content before reaching endgame.

As such, the player can and has spent 50 levels playing a game where they KNOW they can ignore the tooltips because "they do just fine DPS'ing in heavy armour with a hybrid build and bow main".

There needs to be more of a group content tutorial and I think it should be placed when you get the undaunted invite at level 45. This will at least remind the player "hey, you know how you ignored the tooltips until just now? Yeah, that *** aint gonna fly anymore".

So, I agree that the game does make it clear what does what, it does not emphasise the importance of such until its too late and the max rank dummy is all of a sudden a potato with a bread knife instead of the "play how you want" demi god

Destruent

True...as long as you can do basically every fault in this game and do just fine in open world, people won't start thinking about their build....

danno8

Destruent wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

There are a few things the game does a really poor job of explaining. I think weapon power/splee power, weapon crit/spell crit are reasonably well explained but here is a list of things that are not well explained or not explained at all:

-light/heavy attacking gives "heroism" and builds ultimate. Same with blocking or healing someone who has the buff.
-heavy attacking gives back resources. I don't think this is mentioned anywhere. How would a new person ever know?
-resource pools also increase damage. In most games resources are separated from damage stats.

This is clearly stated in the tooltips of magicka/stamina. Just read them!

For example the tooltip for magicka says "Increases staff weapon damage". Is that clear? I mean we have a stat that is weapon damage so you would think, reading the tooltip, it would increase that stat. But of course it does not.

The stamina tooltip clearly states it "increases weapon damage". Now you and I know that this means it increases the damage with light and heavy attacks, but a new person? They would look at the actual "weapon damage" stat printed on the character sheet and wonder why it isn't increasing.

So it is very unclear.

Destruent

i see...it's more clearly described in german.
But if i see: "Hey, it doesn't increase." The next step should be, what does it increase then? There are not so many possibilities left.
But anyway...if you want to understand it, you can. Not at the first look, but you can. It still stands...you can learn the basics of this game by using the information provided...It may be not the easiest way to learn but it works and is no excuse for some builds people use and call "good" or "effective".

Florial

Some of the comments on this thread make me a bit sad for the community. Calling people noobs or stupid isn't exactly a friendly community nor makes you look like a particular nice or mature person. Then again I'm on the older side and don't let things like "noobs" light attacking in dungeons really bother me. If someone wants to spam light bow attacks the entire run, so be it. I'm almost at 600CP and even with a low level character, I can survive most things. I tend to avoid vet dungeons or the harder content like the plague. I find the amount of angst and frustration in some of these dungeons very unenjoyable (vet dungeons on HM). Therefore, I'm happy to run the normal, get my undaunted experience and a key, and call it a good day. I'm a long term player of the game so really in no rush.

Also, don't assume that because someone has very high CP points they should be pro at the game. I didn't set foot into dungeons for a long time and was at 500CP or so before I decided to get off my butt and seriously start working at my undaunted skill lines. I got my points through questing, never grinding, and just enjoying the game at my own pace. I really wish there was a way to turn off CP displays because there is a high expectation. Even taking one of my alts into a lower level dungeon for the first time and doing the quest earned me a rebuke from a group mate. How dare I be at so high level and not have done this particular dungeon? Silly imo. Keep your snarky comments to yourself.

Because I really do enjoy the game, I rolled up a new tank (already have a maxed out healer in pretty good gear) and make it a point to advertise in zone for new players. The response is overwhelming and folks have quite a bit of fun in the dungeon runs. Some of the bosses take forever to kill lol but at the end of it, people have finished their quest, gotten a skill point, and had fun in the process. I love helping new players. Just took a completely new player yesterday, helped him get the bosses killed in a public dungeon, suggested some other means to power level via dolmens (he didn't even know what they were), ported him around to some convenient wayshines, answered a bunch of his questions and had a grand old time helping out a bit with the game I love so much. Hopefully he will pass along the kindness to another new player.

I terms of learning about the game, I find some of the websites or builds outdated. It isn't as easy to find an up-to-date build with all the current gear recommendations for example. I've had to do some hunting around for my various characters. And as others have stated already, if you want a flawless dungeon run, set them up yourself or run it with guildies or friends. There are many new players playing this game for the first time and I think it is important as a community to be welcoming, friendly and not behave like an arse.

If anyone wants to run dungeons in a low stress environment, look me up in game. NA-PC, Florial.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

@Florial

I'm usually one of the nicest people around. That doesn't mean that if someone is actively doing something stupid, like refusing to Google something they really want to know about, they shouldn't be told they are being stupid.

That aside, you make many good points and clearly are not stupid.

Balamoor

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Nyghthowler wrote: »

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

It's 2016. People who don't Google things are stupid. Sorry to be so harsh but this goes for EVERYTHING, not just ESO. You have all of the world's available information literally at your fingertips.

You can learn anything from ESO builds, to installing hot water heaters, to what Spider 2 Y Banana means and all the way up to making creme brûlée or doing CPR. Just ask it.

Yeah, people who want to actually explore the game and not just look up all the answers should be burned at the stake!
/sarcasm

Hardly. The OPs example was that these people didn't know anything because their friend who got them into the game refused to help them. Meanwhile they got to CP200 so chances are they had at least a month or three to figure out a solution other than relying on a crappy friend. If all that is true and no one thought to Google things as a potential solution they are in fact stupid.

That is an idiotic opinion actually...... There are those who enjoy trial and error they also enjoy exploring things for themselves without data mining, or doing a web search. I find the quest I do without the help of google are the most enjoyable because I discovered it on my own without the answer book. It's a very Millennial generation thing to decide that anyone that doesn't take shortcuts is stupid.

/shrug.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Balamoor wrote: »

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Nyghthowler wrote: »

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

It's 2016. People who don't Google things are stupid. Sorry to be so harsh but this goes for EVERYTHING, not just ESO. You have all of the world's available information literally at your fingertips.

You can learn anything from ESO builds, to installing hot water heaters, to what Spider 2 Y Banana means and all the way up to making creme brûlée or doing CPR. Just ask it.

Yeah, people who want to actually explore the game and not just look up all the answers should be burned at the stake!
/sarcasm

Hardly. The OPs example was that these people didn't know anything because their friend who got them into the game refused to help them. Meanwhile they got to CP200 so chances are they had at least a month or three to figure out a solution other than relying on a crappy friend. If all that is true and no one thought to Google things as a potential solution they are in fact stupid.

That is an idiotic opinion actually...... There are those who enjoy trial and error they also enjoy exploring things for themselves without data mining, or doing a web search. I find the quest I do without the help of google are the most enjoyable because I discovered it on my own without the answer book. It's a very Millennial generation thing to decide that anyone that doesn't take shortcuts is stupid.

/shrug.

Except that was not what the original post was about. The people in his example were searching for ideas because their "friend who got them into the game" refused to help. They were not "trying to figure things out on their own".

Using Google is not a shortcut in this situation. It's a logical step when you're searching for information but the only source you have is stonewalling you.

But yeah, millennials. Clearly the problem.

Doctordarkspawn

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Nyghthowler wrote: »

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

It's 2016. People who don't Google things are stupid. Sorry to be so harsh but this goes for EVERYTHING, not just ESO. You have all of the world's available information literally at your fingertips.

You can learn anything from ESO builds, to installing hot water heaters, to what Spider 2 Y Banana means and all the way up to making creme brûlée or doing CPR. Just ask it.

Yeah, people who want to actually explore the game and not just look up all the answers should be burned at the stake!
/sarcasm

Hardly. The OPs example was that these people didn't know anything because their friend who got them into the game refused to help them. Meanwhile they got to CP200 so chances are they had at least a month or three to figure out a solution other than relying on a crappy friend. If all that is true and no one thought to Google things as a potential solution they are in fact stupid.

That is an idiotic opinion actually...... There are those who enjoy trial and error they also enjoy exploring things for themselves without data mining, or doing a web search. I find the quest I do without the help of google are the most enjoyable because I discovered it on my own without the answer book. It's a very Millennial generation thing to decide that anyone that doesn't take shortcuts is stupid.

/shrug.

Except that was not what the original post was about. The people in his example were searching for ideas because their "friend who got them into the game" refused to help. They were not "trying to figure things out on their own".

Using Google is not a shortcut in this situation. It's a logical step when you're searching for information but the only source you have is stonewalling you.

But yeah, millennials. Clearly the problem.

Exept that he's not far from the truth. This entire thread has been new generation gamers including yourself shouting at us to shut up and use google, and stop demanding this game have a tutorial worth a crap.

Sounds exactly like what he's saying to me.

nine9six

So much animosity...

Doctordarkspawn

nine9six wrote: »

So much animosity...

Over what basicly ammounts to a tutorial revamp, some tooltip re-writing and some sample builds.

Something that might take a day or two, a week at most if you wanted to call voice acting into it, and even less to maintain with every patch.

Sad, I know.

Marto

That's why softcaps should return. By making the gradient of player strenght less noticeable, normal content can be enjoyed by all groups, at is should.

Want to min-max? Go play Veteran Dungeons.