"RNG".Yeah right!!!

Solus · November 2016

Judgedread101071 wrote: »

Solus wrote: »

strikeback1247 wrote: »

Judgedread101071 wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

I think deltia did this, and it was pretty much irrefutable proof the undaunted chest drops were favoring the two obsolete traits on everything.

And does this surprise you?
we all suffer this terrible "RNG" but they dont give a [SNIIP].

We don't all suffer bad rng. There are enough people with good rng, but they aren't complaining here on the forums, therefore you don't hear about them. RNG is RNG which means that some will be lucky and some will be unlucky.

Working as intended.

To elaborate on this. I have always had good RNG luck. I dont know why or how. It just happens. Probably the downfall is you're completing something trying to get a specific thing, where you need to just do it for FUN (shocker) and you will be surprised with what you want eventually. Like i got both masks in under 1 hour on the first day of the halloween event, i have 10 bloody mara recipes, and an extra mask. Picked up 3 sharp spriggan daggers, 2 sharp maces, 10 sharp bows, all three Xivkin polys in under 20 blue imperial chests (not even kidding) and each stack of 200 mats i usually pull 5-8 gold mats.

OP: you just need to not care so much and learn to enjoy all of it no matter what the outcome is. You will have more fun that way and you will randomly just get what you want, be surprised when it happens and the feels when it does are better than getting so upset over the: " i did this 'X' amount of times and got NOTHING!"

Really happy for you mate ,i trully am.
But whenever someone says "good RNG' and they dont see the fault of that statment or the fact thats its either RNG or its not,then probably you lost the whole meaning of the thread.

Well there is no other way to put it, I dont try to have 'good RNG' i just do usually. It is RNG, some people get the shaft and others get the gold. RNG is the closest thing to life in game lol.

strikeback1247 · November 2016

If you want to convince everyone that the RNG is rigged, just prove it. Take a relatively large sample size and compute the chances of the sharpened drops. You can't just give your own experiences and immediately conclude that there is a pattern.

Judgedread101071 · November 2016

strikeback1247 wrote: »

If you want to convince everyone that the RNG is rigged, just prove it. Take a relatively large sample size and compute the chances of the sharpened drops. You can't just give your own experiences and immediately conclude that there is a pattern.

Yes you are right.
This is the ONLY thread in the forum about rng!!
Mate if by now after countless threads in the forum about rng and drops by so many other players haven't convinced you that there IS something wrong then it would be pointless for me to try anything.

spectre303 · November 2016

Judgedread101071 wrote: »

spectre303 wrote: »

Judgedread101071 wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

We could discuss if Rng system is is too layered, too detrimental for the enjoyment of the game or just a flawed system all togheter.. But please stop with this nonsense of rigged drops, has to be one the stupidest notions ever made on this forums.

Ok,i ll play along.Since we both make assumption due to the lack of hard evidence (unless you are a ZOS employe and you can provide such), I base mine upon personal experience of drops (150 maelstrom weapons and the only sharpened are the restos and swords) as well as counless other "winers" like me who posted in the forums that there is something fishy going on with the loot upon examining their loot as well.
I'd like to know where your assumption is based on,
And pls dont bring up that lottery thing again!
RNG in this game is a embeded code which as i understand it can be manipulated.
And sorry if i dont trust ZOS when they say that it can't be manipulated .I am too old to be that gullible.

i've done about 50 runs maybe less i have 2 sharp lightning staves, 3 sharp 2H, sharp resto, 3 sharp daggers, 1 sharp axe, l think i even have some sharp S+B weapons but dont use em so not sure on traits. point being its random and you're just unlucky. theres no conspiracy to hide the truth about maelstrom drops. All that said, i'd really like a sharpened inferno staff still. guess ill keep doing maelstrom runs.

Mehh i give up!!
Of course there is rng involved up to a point and of course there are people who get sharpened weapons!!!!!!!!!Never said otherwise!! Hell i even have sharpened restos and swords as i earlier said!
But YOU my friend along with a few others are a minority.And if you bring yourself as an example i can lead to you to @Decado who after 1000+ runs never got a sharpened firestaff. Not to mention counless other guildies with 200+ runs and still no destro sharpened.
So your point is: random is random right?
Okies then you got me covered.

I understand your frustration, just trying to provide some personal experience evidence to counter the "its rigged" claims. Its not rigged its just a less than ideal and as far as i can tell completely random system.

SublimeSparo · November 2016

Meh i don't think its rigged but it's a *** system.Completed it hundreds of times on every class stam & mag.
Never pulled a single sharpened weapon of any type from the chest, received 1 Sharpened resto (lol) from leaderboards.
I must get at least 60% charged weapons if not more
I don't think i can be bothered with it any more

strikeback1247 · November 2016

Judgedread101071 wrote: »

strikeback1247 wrote: »

If you want to convince everyone that the RNG is rigged, just prove it. Take a relatively large sample size and compute the chances of the sharpened drops. You can't just give your own experiences and immediately conclude that there is a pattern.

Yes you are right.
This is the ONLY thread in the forum about rng!!
Mate if by now after countless threads in the forum about rng and drops by so many other players haven't convinced you that there IS something wrong then it would be pointless for me to try anything.

I've seen a lot of unlucky people on these forums, but I've not seen any solid proof that the rng is rigged. It's normal that a lot of people get bad luck, but I've also seen many players get good drops. To me it seems like it is working as intended.

Vythri · November 2016

If people are arguing the system is rigged, then they are picking the wrong hill to die on. That's a losing battle no matter what you say or do because you'll never have enough data to prove it.

The real argument should be about whether it's fair or not. Is it fair for somebody to spend days, weeks, and months farming for something and maybe never getting it? Is it a good idea to make players frustrated, disheartened, and apathetic about the game? If you want to make somebody work for something, then fine. But at least put a light at the end of the damn tunnel. And this isn't just about VMA. It's about all loot in this game. I'm not sure any reasonable people here want to be handed everything. But as it stands right now that's exactly what's happening to the lucky few, all while pissing off the unlucky many.

There has to be a better way.

Mojmir · November 2016

It's always rigged, that's why they use these systems. Kind of like the "bug" that allowed the same monster sets to appear twice in a row? Lol

SublimeSparo · November 2016

I always wanted to make a poll-
ESO+ get good vMA drops
ESO+ get crap vMA drops
No ESO+ own Orsinium get good vMA drops
No ESO+ own Orsinium get crap vMA drops
ESO+ own Orsinium get good vMA drops
ESO+ own Orsinium get crap vMA drops

Purely as i am ESO+ don't own Orsinium and get awful drops and my good friend has never been ESO+ but owns Orsinium and gets really good drops.

code65536 · November 2016

SublimeSparo wrote: »

I always wanted to make a poll-
ESO+ get good vMA drops
ESO+ get crap vMA drops
No ESO+ own Orsinium get good vMA drops
No ESO+ own Orsinium get crap vMA drops
ESO+ own Orsinium get good vMA drops
ESO+ own Orsinium get crap vMA drops

Purely as i am ESO+ don't own Orsinium and get awful drops and my good friend has never been ESO+ but owns Orsinium and gets really good drops.

The thing about randomness is... well, you're going to see shapes in clouds. You're going to try to find a pattern, because that's what humans do instinctively. And there will be things that look like patterns in anything that's truly random.

I got a sharpened Inferno staff within my first dozen runs. And have never seen another one since. So am I lucky? Or unlucky? Depends on which slice of the data you look at, doesn't it?

Anyway, no, the system isn't rigged. It doesn't treat one person more fairly or more unfairly than another person. It's just luck. That said, using luck is a horrible way to reward tasks that are based on skill. Luck is what you use to reward people who pull levers on a slot machine. Luck isn't what you use to pay your employees.

strikeback1247 · November 2016

code65536 wrote: »

SublimeSparo wrote: »

I always wanted to make a poll-
ESO+ get good vMA drops
ESO+ get crap vMA drops
No ESO+ own Orsinium get good vMA drops
No ESO+ own Orsinium get crap vMA drops
ESO+ own Orsinium get good vMA drops
ESO+ own Orsinium get crap vMA drops

Purely as i am ESO+ don't own Orsinium and get awful drops and my good friend has never been ESO+ but owns Orsinium and gets really good drops.

The thing about randomness is... well, you're going to see shapes in clouds. You're going to try to find a pattern, because that's what humans do instinctively. And there will be things that look like patterns in anything that's truly random.

I got a sharpened Inferno staff within my first dozen runs. And have never seen another one since. So am I lucky? Or unlucky? Depends on which slice of the data you look at, doesn't it?

Anyway, no, the system isn't rigged. It doesn't treat one person more fairly or more unfairly than another person. It's just luck. That said, using luck is a horrible way to reward tasks that are based on skill. Luck is what you use to reward people who pull levers on a slot machine. Luck isn't what you use to pay your employees.

This so much ^^^^

SublimeSparo · November 2016

code65536 wrote: »

SublimeSparo wrote: »

I always wanted to make a poll-
ESO+ get good vMA drops
ESO+ get crap vMA drops
No ESO+ own Orsinium get good vMA drops
No ESO+ own Orsinium get crap vMA drops
ESO+ own Orsinium get good vMA drops
ESO+ own Orsinium get crap vMA drops

Purely as i am ESO+ don't own Orsinium and get awful drops and my good friend has never been ESO+ but owns Orsinium and gets really good drops.

The thing about randomness is... well, you're going to see shapes in clouds. You're going to try to find a pattern, because that's what humans do instinctively. And there will be things that look like patterns in anything that's truly random.

I got a sharpened Inferno staff within my first dozen runs. And have never seen another one since. So am I lucky? Or unlucky? Depends on which slice of the data you look at, doesn't it?

Anyway, no, the system isn't rigged. It doesn't treat one person more fairly or more unfairly than another person. It's just luck. That said, using luck is a horrible way to reward tasks that are based on skill. Luck is what you use to reward people who pull levers on a slot machine. Luck isn't what you use to pay your employees.

I understand randomness, hence why i said before that i doubt the system is rigged.
The trouble with human generated randomness is that well it isn't always entirely random.I'm assuming that the rng in this game is seed based, but where is the seed pulled from? Could it be time, acount details etc most likely a combination of sources, but with lazy design the seeding could skew the resultant string of random numbers (rewards)
I calculated the chances of me not pulling a sharpened weapon of any type out of the box, it's a ridiculously small number. It'd be like throwing an 8 sided dice hundreds of times and never rolling a 1, but at some point rolling nine 6's (a string of charged weapons i got) data like that makes you think the dice might weighted lol
But yes as my friend literally plays right beside me I do naturally look to patterns, the most obvious of which is the basis for speculating on that poll.
My point is i doubt it is rigged intentionally, but the possibility remains that through unintended consequences it might be slightly buggy (not that zos has a history of bugs or anything

)
I definitely agree it's a crap reward system. Would tokens really kill them, 1 per run, 10 for a 1h, 20 for a 2h weapon. That's still 40 runs to gear out 1 character with either dw & bow or double destro, with a chance to 'get lucky' and get what you need sooner

Julianos · November 2016

need token system

Judgedread101071 · November 2016

Vythri wrote: »

If people are arguing the system is rigged, then they are picking the wrong hill to die on. That's a losing battle no matter what you say or do because you'll never have enough data to prove it.

The real argument should be about whether it's fair or not. Is it fair for somebody to spend days, weeks, and months farming for something and maybe never getting it? Is it a good idea to make players frustrated, disheartened, and apathetic about the game? If you want to make somebody work for something, then fine. But at least put a light at the end of the damn tunnel. And this isn't just about VMA. It's about all loot in this game. I'm not sure any reasonable people here want to be handed everything. But as it stands right now that's exactly what's happening to the lucky few, all while pissing off the unlucky many.

There has to be a better way.

Totally agree,and from what I've seen this far,it doesn't really matter whether it is rigged or tampered or not.
I ll keep my opinion to myself and I ll stop trying to convince others about anything cause i got tired and it doesn't really matter.
At the end of the day the real question is the one you asked!
But sadly the sysytem is here to stay imo and as long as there isn't a "single voice" from the community nothing will ever change.
Also after watching this video everything was explained at least for me and we should try to get more ppl to watch it.
It geve me the answer to the question : Why rng in a game.
I know it's an 8 minute video but everyone should watch it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ICbcBcXVC0

Judgedread101071 · November 2016

SublimeSparo wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

SublimeSparo wrote: »

I always wanted to make a poll-
ESO+ get good vMA drops
ESO+ get crap vMA drops
No ESO+ own Orsinium get good vMA drops
No ESO+ own Orsinium get crap vMA drops
ESO+ own Orsinium get good vMA drops
ESO+ own Orsinium get crap vMA drops

Purely as i am ESO+ don't own Orsinium and get awful drops and my good friend has never been ESO+ but owns Orsinium and gets really good drops.

The thing about randomness is... well, you're going to see shapes in clouds. You're going to try to find a pattern, because that's what humans do instinctively. And there will be things that look like patterns in anything that's truly random.

I got a sharpened Inferno staff within my first dozen runs. And have never seen another one since. So am I lucky? Or unlucky? Depends on which slice of the data you look at, doesn't it?

Anyway, no, the system isn't rigged. It doesn't treat one person more fairly or more unfairly than another person. It's just luck. That said, using luck is a horrible way to reward tasks that are based on skill. Luck is what you use to reward people who pull levers on a slot machine. Luck isn't what you use to pay your employees.

I understand randomness, hence why i said before that i doubt the system is rigged.
The trouble with human generated randomness is that well it isn't always entirely random.I'm assuming that the rng in this game is seed based, but where is the seed pulled from? Could it be time, acount details etc most likely a combination of sources, but with lazy design the seeding could skew the resultant string of random numbers (rewards)
I calculated the chances of me not pulling a sharpened weapon of any type out of the box, it's a ridiculously small number. It'd be like throwing an 8 sided dice hundreds of times and never rolling a 1, but at some point rolling nine 6's (a string of charged weapons i got) data like that makes you think the dice might weighted lol
But yes as my friend literally plays right beside me I do naturally look to patterns, the most obvious of which is the basis for speculating on that poll.
My point is i doubt it is rigged intentionally, but the possibility remains that through unintended consequences it might be slightly buggy (not that zos has a history of bugs or anything )
I definitely agree it's a crap reward system. Would tokens really kill them, 1 per run, 10 for a 1h, 20 for a 2h weapon. That's still 40 runs to gear out 1 character with either dw & bow or double destro, with a chance to 'get lucky' and get what you need sooner

Rigged on not,faulty or not ,or working as intended doesn't really matter.
There are many solutions out there,token system being one of them but I doubt anything will change the minds of the devs and do something about it.
And i realise now that the only way (for me at least) to "win" in this freaking game is not to paly at all.

Loc2262 · November 2016

Just my quick 2 cents. I'm more of a casual low-stress player, and despite my 420 CP I'm far from being able to even complete vMA (stuck in arena 2 with the rotating blades). Still I very much agree that an RNG is a very bad choice for a reward system for the hardest content in the game.

I don't care if I have to kill dolmens or world bosses a few times to get what I want. But putting time, money and (lots of) sweat into something like vMA and just have a lottery at the end? No thank you.

I don't necessarily think the RNG is rigged. They don't have to. The loot tables are diluted enough as they are. The people posting and complaining on the forum are way too small a sample to provide a statistically sound result. It's more like the system itself that stinks. Content like vMA must NOT have a lottery at the end! The same, to a lesser degree, goes for the Undaunted chests.

When I was looking for my Selene shoulder the other day, I got a Divines one on the 3rd key. Yesterday it took 30 keys to get a well-fitted Ilambris shoulder. Likewise, during my last WGT run to get SPC, I got a training chest and prosperous pants. On the other hand, yesterday we did Fungal Grotto to get a sharpened Viper dagger for a friend. I found one right at the first boss.

That's RNG for ya. But I don't really see myself spending hours doing the pledge dungeons just to be greeted by a lottery. I want predictable results if I'm going to sink my time into this! Never knowing if you're gonna get your desired item tomorrow or not at all is just too frustrating and puts off too many players.

ZOS, it's time to change this! Token system please! You're not going to make your players happier by introducing MORE LEVELS of lottery (i.e. 3-way pledge system in 1T)!

helediron · November 2016

I've been experimenting alot with the game RNG on crafting side. The RNG is not rigged, you just need to run vMA over 5000 times to get even distribution.

And this is why i don't run vMA. I'll stay out until there is a token system.

Judgedread101071 · November 2016

Loc2262 wrote: »

Just my quick 2 cents. I'm more of a casual low-stress player, and despite my 420 CP I'm far from being able to even complete vMA (stuck in arena 2 with the rotating blades). Still I very much agree that an RNG is a very bad choice for a reward system for the hardest content in the game.

I don't care if I have to kill dolmens or world bosses a few times to get what I want. But putting time, money and (lots of) sweat into something like vMA and just have a lottery at the end? No thank you.

I don't necessarily think the RNG is rigged. They don't have to. The loot tables are diluted enough as they are. The people posting and complaining on the forum are way too small a sample to provide a statistically sound result. It's more like the system itself that stinks. Content like vMA must NOT have a lottery at the end! The same, to a lesser degree, goes for the Undaunted chests.

When I was looking for my Selene shoulder the other day, I got a Divines one on the 3rd key. Yesterday it took 30 keys to get a well-fitted Ilambris shoulder. Likewise, during my last WGT run to get SPC, I got a training chest and prosperous pants. On the other hand, yesterday we did Fungal Grotto to get a sharpened Viper dagger for a friend. I found one right at the first boss.

That's RNG for ya. But I don't really see myself spending hours doing the pledge dungeons just to be greeted by a lottery. I want predictable results if I'm going to sink my time into this! Never knowing if you're gonna get your desired item tomorrow or not at all is just too frustrating and puts off too many players.

ZOS, it's time to change this! Token system please! You're not going to make your players happier by introducing MORE LEVELS of lottery (i.e. 3-way pledge system in 1T)!

From what I ve seen so far not only in this thread but the entire forum evryone (except the trolls

) make valid points one way or another.
But the thing is that all those voices are scattered around so the devs have the luxury to ignore them.
Having something so essential to the game like drops being based on RNG is not only stupid but unfair as well.
But if those voices were to be as one and overwealm the forum then maybe (and it's a big maybe knowing ZOS) they would have to act and actually do something about it.
But like everything else,ppl chose to fight eachother than team up and deal with the real issue.
And most of the threads I've read they end up with ppl calling eachother names and trolling eachother so ZOS can keep on going screwing us over and not dealing with the issues in their game.
After 2.5 years we still have pvp lag!!!!!!!! And even though I never pvp i really feel for the ppl who enjoy that aspect of the game but they have to deal with extreme lags,exploits and cheaters who the devs never dealt with or slaped them on the wrist .
I am pretty sure that this thread is gonna be in oblivion in a while along with countless other before but it's a shame because most of them have valid points but they are ignored because the devs would actually have to get up from their ass es and do something!
In other words unless the community unites and speaks as one, sadly those issues will continiue to exist.

Judgedread101071 · November 2016

helediron wrote: »

I've been experimenting alot with the game RNG on crafting side. The RNG is not rigged, you just need to run vMA over 5000 times to get even distribution.

And this is why i don't run vMA. I'll stay out until there is a token system.

Well actually it's the best way to keep your sanity my friend

Judgedread101071 · November 2016

Further more and although it has been posted before in this thread i feel the need to repost this video which explains (at least for me) why ZOS keeps their current loot system.
And although i feel kind of stupid for still playing this game [even though i still love some aspects (especially the social one when I raid with guildies)] sadly and for now the lack of a job leaves me with too much time in my hands so i ll probably keep playing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ICbcBcXVC0

I'd recommened for everyone to pass it along so more ppl have an idea of what we are dealing with.

code65536 · November 2016

SublimeSparo wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

SublimeSparo wrote: »

I always wanted to make a poll-
ESO+ get good vMA drops
ESO+ get crap vMA drops
No ESO+ own Orsinium get good vMA drops
No ESO+ own Orsinium get crap vMA drops
ESO+ own Orsinium get good vMA drops
ESO+ own Orsinium get crap vMA drops

Purely as i am ESO+ don't own Orsinium and get awful drops and my good friend has never been ESO+ but owns Orsinium and gets really good drops.

The thing about randomness is... well, you're going to see shapes in clouds. You're going to try to find a pattern, because that's what humans do instinctively. And there will be things that look like patterns in anything that's truly random.

I got a sharpened Inferno staff within my first dozen runs. And have never seen another one since. So am I lucky? Or unlucky? Depends on which slice of the data you look at, doesn't it?

Anyway, no, the system isn't rigged. It doesn't treat one person more fairly or more unfairly than another person. It's just luck. That said, using luck is a horrible way to reward tasks that are based on skill. Luck is what you use to reward people who pull levers on a slot machine. Luck isn't what you use to pay your employees.

I understand randomness, hence why i said before that i doubt the system is rigged.
The trouble with human generated randomness is that well it isn't always entirely random.I'm assuming that the rng in this game is seed based, but where is the seed pulled from? Could it be time, acount details etc most likely a combination of sources, but with lazy design the seeding could skew the resultant string of random numbers (rewards)
I calculated the chances of me not pulling a sharpened weapon of any type out of the box, it's a ridiculously small number. It'd be like throwing an 8 sided dice hundreds of times and never rolling a 1, but at some point rolling nine 6's (a string of charged weapons i got) data like that makes you think the dice might weighted lol
But yes as my friend literally plays right beside me I do naturally look to patterns, the most obvious of which is the basis for speculating on that poll.
My point is i doubt it is rigged intentionally, but the possibility remains that through unintended consequences it might be slightly buggy (not that zos has a history of bugs or anything )
I definitely agree it's a crap reward system. Would tokens really kill them, 1 per run, 10 for a 1h, 20 for a 2h weapon. That's still 40 runs to gear out 1 character with either dw & bow or double destro, with a chance to 'get lucky' and get what you need sooner

Please don't spread misinformation. Yes, the game uses PRNG. So does every software RNG in the world. For all practical intents and purposes, PRNG is RNG. Only in some very specific and narrow cases (like a defeating a cryptographic key by guessing the seed to replay a RNG sequence), seeding is entirely irrelevant (not to mention, it's extremely unlikely that each player has their own seed). PRNG is random and the problem is not a "bad" seed. I say this as a programmer: anyone who pulls this "it's PRNG and not true RNG" or "something's wrong with the seed" is 100% wrong and doesn't understand how RNG in computers work.

The problem is much more fundamental: it's the use of luck to reward an activity that's based on skill. Period.

Judgedread101071 · November 2016

code65536 wrote: »

The problem is much more fundamental: it's the use of luck to reward an activity that's based on skill. Period.

Couldn't agree more

Loc2262 · November 2016

Yeah it's like having to run a 1000m dash in a certain time, to be allowed to buy a lottery ticket. Somewhat weird logic if you ask me.

Eleusian · November 2016

Many articles about MMO RNG out there. This MMO falls in line with the keep them on the hamster wheel approach to keep us playing. I believe from my own experience that the traites have equal value to drop , it's in the item itself they do not have equal chance values.
Some mite get super lucky and beat the odds but many of us know it's pure luck. Not because the drop rates are equal , computer generated RNG is not pure and is easily manipulated with value assignment. Much like epic or legendary drop chances.

Solus · November 2016

Judgedread101071 wrote: »

Further more and although it has been posted before in this thread i feel the need to repost this video which explains (at least for me) why ZOS keeps their current loot system.
And although i feel kind of stupid for still playing this game [even though i still love some aspects (especially the social one when I raid with guildies)] sadly and for now the lack of a job leaves me with too much time in my hands so i ll probably keep playing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ICbcBcXVC0

I'd recommened for everyone to pass it along so more ppl have an idea of what we are dealing with.

She is extremely difficult to watch talk, but theres alot of great information there.

Judgedread101071 · November 2016

Solus wrote: »

Judgedread101071 wrote: »

Further more and although it has been posted before in this thread i feel the need to repost this video which explains (at least for me) why ZOS keeps their current loot system.
And although i feel kind of stupid for still playing this game [even though i still love some aspects (especially the social one when I raid with guildies)] sadly and for now the lack of a job leaves me with too much time in my hands so i ll probably keep playing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ICbcBcXVC0

I'd recommened for everyone to pass it along so more ppl have an idea of what we are dealing with.

She is extremely difficult to watch talk, but theres alot of great information there.

LOL yeah she is hard to look at as well but she explains the reason we "suffer" in this game and not only.
My advice post this vid wherever and whenever you can.

Judgedread101071 · November 2016

Eleusian wrote: »

Many articles about MMO RNG out there. This MMO falls in line with the keep them on the hamster wheel approach to keep us playing. I believe from my own experience that the traites have equal value to drop , it's in the item itself they do not have equal chance values.
Some mite get super lucky and beat the odds but many of us know it's pure luck. Not because the drop rates are equal , computer generated RNG is not pure and is easily manipulated with value assignment. Much like epic or legendary drop chances.

As someone commented earlier in the thread and i quote "The problem is much more fundamental: it's the use of luck to reward an activity that's based on skill."
This is what we should be focusing on.
It doesn't matter if it's rng or not, or if it's rigged or not ,or even if there is good or bad rng!!
The real question should be why rng at all and not a token system or actuall smart loot or some combination of both?
The unfairness of rng should be totally removed.
You put the effort then you should be rewarded with something you need and not end up with 20 maelstrom restos nirn if you are a dd or 50 prosperous shoulders of nothingness!!

Artis · November 2016

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

sure

ok... you and me play a game. the chance of winning is 1 in 100000.

we play 6764 times, you have won eight times i have won twice.

who is most likely to win on the 6765th time? [/quote]

It's a trap lol, if the events are independent, than both are still equally likely to win.

Vythri wrote: »

If people are arguing the system is rigged, then they are picking the wrong hill to die on. That's a losing battle no matter what you say or do because you'll never have enough data to prove it.

The real argument should be about whether it's fair or not. Is it fair for somebody to spend days, weeks, and months farming for something and maybe never getting it? Is it a good idea to make players frustrated, disheartened, and apathetic about the game? If you want to make somebody work for something, then fine. But at least put a light at the end of the damn tunnel. And this isn't just about VMA. It's about all loot in this game. I'm not sure any reasonable people here want to be handed everything. But as it stands right now that's exactly what's happening to the lucky few, all while pissing off the unlucky many.

There has to be a better way.

Considering that you can run vMA as many times as you want and that ZOS said long time ago, that master weapons are supposed to be rare, not something everyone will have, then yes. What are other ways to keep them rare? You aren't supposed to expect to have it and farm it.

code65536 wrote: »

The problem is much more fundamental: it's the use of luck to reward an activity that's based on skill. Period.

That's not a problem, that's a solution to having rare gear and not having 1 week cooldowns, like in WoW, for example. How else do you want them to gear rare? Make content that almost no one can complete? But then all these people will complain that it has to be herfed, which we saw multiple times. Only give weapons once a week in a weekly reward per account? There, btw, can give one token a week for an account and then require 100 of them per weapon of your choice.

But that's not a solution long term, considering this game doesn't have raid tiers and instead everything is scaled. Long term anything but RNG means that everyone will have those weapons at some point.

LegendaryArcher · November 2016

Artis wrote: »

That's not a problem, that's a solution to having rare gear and not having 1 week cooldowns, like in WoW, for example. How else do you want them to gear rare? Make content that almost no one can complete? But then all these people will complain that it has to be herfed, which we saw multiple times. Only give weapons once a week in a weekly reward per account? There, btw, can give one token a week for an account and then require 100 of them per weapon of your choice.

But that's not a solution long term, considering this game doesn't have raid tiers and instead everything is scaled. Long term anything but RNG means that everyone will have those weapons at some point.

And what is bad about it? I'd be completely fine getting one token per week. At least I'd know that in 100 weeks I'll have my Sharpened Inferno. You want things that are rare? Fine. Make them purely cosmetic. Like the Daedra polymorphs when they came out. I used to grind Imperial City like crazy, spent Millions of Tel Var Stones on boxes. But guess what, they never dropped. Others invested less than 1/10 the effort I did and got all 3 of them. But it's just cosmetics, cool to have, but doesn't prevent me from being competitive. Later, they made them sellable, and I bought them. I would not've had a problem with it if they stayed BoP and continued grinding once in a while. It's ok to place pure RNG in the right spots. But BiS weapons isn't one of them.

Grimnir_ · November 2016

Maybe we all need to face the fact that... We're no better than degenerate gamblers. Some may argue, I'm not pulling a lever on a slot machine, I shouldn't be rewarded as such. Though, that is how our time and efforts are rewarded, as we're well aware at this point. So, you're a willing participant in this hamster wheel, or you opt out.

Don't get this system confused with something merit based, the players that do seem to be the most frustrated. If ZOS understands anything it's the psychology behind creating an addictive game. RNG is so prevalent simply because...

Variable Ratio Schedule (VR): A procedure in which reinforcement comes after a number of responses that is randomized from one reinforcement to the next (ex. slot machines). The lower the number of responses required, the higher the response rate tends to be. Ratio schedules tend to produce very rapid responding, often with breaks of no responding just after reinforcement if a large number of responses is required for reinforcement. -B.F. Skinner

I wish you all good luck out there.