Any ETA - Massive Imbalances

Perpetuation · September 2016

Let's look at the changes.
3 new stamina damage ults, a two hander ult that refunds itself if you get a kill and bypasses all resistances - also gives you the resistances you bypassed. Straight up what? Whoever even came up with this idea? [snip] This skill is going to be ridiculous and I cannot believe that this was passed off as balanced by the development team and even made it to the PTS in its current state.

Next we have the bow ultimate which is basically soul assault on steroids that you don't even have to take the risk of channeling yourself with the ballista morph. The other morph basically just says "oh you thought we made soul assault look bad before? Let's add even more damage and make magicka builds look stupid for even thinking their soul assault could compare to ours"

Lastly we have dual wield, a very strong AoE that heals for damage done and can morph to do more damage. I don't have such strong opinions on this one but it still looks significantly better than the magicka destro staff ulti.

What did magicka get to even possibly compete with such strong ultimates? Surely something very strong that deals high burst damage with a low cost so that it can even compete with everything stam got, right? No. Not even close.
ZoS completely dropped the ball on this one. A 250 costing ult that has a weaker DoT than meteor, without the initial burst damage impact of meteor even coming into consideration. Oh did we mention it has a 2 second charge up time that's telegraphed basically saying "HEY GET OUT OF HERE NOW LOOOOL WEAK DMG INC"
Oh and I forgot to mention that all your staff type does is change the color of the ultimate. To get the ultimate to actually have an elemental effect you HAVE TO PICK THAT AS THE MORPH, it's not even just an assumed part of the ability that it changes based off of your staff. Mind boggling.

Just, why? Were there two blind rooms where each part of the team designed different ultis, and when it was time to release the PTS they all just stuck their ideas into a little box that wasn't looked at and then just dumped into the PTS? Because that's the only explanation I could come up with to how there is such a massive imbalance with these weapon ultimates.

Dueling? Sure it will be fun stam vs stam testing out their new toys. Magicka might as well pick up and reroll now before there is just an imposed ban upon anyone with a magicka character.

Other changes include making it so that zergs can more easily kill people in towers, and a plethora of class balance changes that were greatly needed. OH WAIT, nope!
Not a single class balance change IN TWO PATCHES.

[edited for inappropriate commentary]

Perpetuation · September 2016

And don't even get me started on set imbalances for stam vs magicka...

outsideworld76 · September 2016

They should fix the lag first.

Publius_Scipio · September 2016

Got to post in the PTS specific subforum.

HoloYoitsu · September 2016

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Got to post in the PTS specific subforum.

Doesn't really matter, ZOS ignores all forums equally.

DHale · September 2016

Just roll stam and quit trying to go against the grain.

Soris · September 2016

Well this is the most legit rage post on forums i've seen in a while.

Elara_Northwind · September 2016

Never re-roll Stamina, then you give them exactly what they want

zuto40 · September 2016

I'll be staying magic, and investing in lube, ill need it

DKsUnite · September 2016

either quit or reroll stam. My stam DK is already gearing out for beserking strike....

ThulsaDoomDC · September 2016

DKsUnite wrote: »

either quit or reroll stam. My stam DK is already gearing out for beserking strike....

No... if you fall so do all the mDKs. Do not go my lord. Lol

Force-Siphon · September 2016

Elder stamina online, such a joke now

PrinceFabious · September 2016

Bad players can look decent by playing stam in the pts lol. Magicka builds have to work twice as hard and pull out every trick in the book to achieve similar results.

frozywozy · September 2016

Stam looks really strong if you compare the new ultimates but magicka got several amazing sets worth looking into and testing out. It is still too soon to state my opinion but magicka templar looks promising as always.

Forestd16b14_ESO · September 2016

Force-Siphon wrote: »

Elder stamina online, such a joke now

Um correct me if I am wrong but for what a year and half to 2 years the game was called Elder Sticks Online or Elder Skirts Online. What they buff up stamina a little bit and it's the end of the game now ?

karakondzula · September 2016

2H ultimate is a low range single target hit with 150 cost. it hits a bit more than dragon leap that is an AOE gap closer 110 cost. This ultimate is fine, it only needs a bit of change on the buff timer, thats all. People judge only based on dueling which is dumb.

Balista is a bit too strong,

Dual weild ulti is balanced.

xblackroxe · September 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Force-Siphon wrote: »

Elder stamina online, such a joke now

Um correct me if I am wrong but for what a year and half to 2 years the game was called Elder Sticks Online or Elder Skirts Online. What they buff up stamina a little bit and it's the end of the game now ?

"Buff a little bit" ?! Do you even play this game. The difference in sustain, damage and tankyness is ridiculous.

Rjizzle09 · September 2016

Forest has a point tho cause stamina used to be terrible like barely anybody wasted time even rolling stamina. Mag dks and sorcs were king for awhile and magicka was on top patch after patch after patch. Stamina is now on top im not saying they didnt go to far but we all know how this game operates by now so its no use complaining to zos. Magicka will more than likely be on top again next patch then ghe nerf threads will continue over and over again itll never stop. I gave up the only mag characyer i play is my mag dk but i main my stamina one i just play whatever is cool atm until they give me somethon else to do

Cronopoly · September 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Force-Siphon wrote: »

Elder stamina online, such a joke now

Um correct me if I am wrong but for what a year and half to 2 years the game was called Elder Sticks Online or Elder Skirts Online. What they buff up stamina a little bit and it's the end of the game now ?

Lets set it straight
1st Dominant period: Light Armor wearing Magicka DK's Perma Talons CC, Perma Blocking, unkillable health regen.

2nd Dominant period: Sorcs stacking of at least 3 Shields as a crutch cause they couldn't dodgeroll worthwhile - Also no penalty Streak.

3rd Dominant period: Zos introduced the Magicka synergy for Proxy Det / Vicious Death / Alchemist...sigh, largest mass killings in ESO history.

4th Dominant period: Now Stamina Domination
Magicka Shields nerfed to hell, Sorcs and other magicka classes realize they are limited in Stamina based PVP skills like Dodgeroll/Sprint for reposition/CCBreak and normal players suffer real hard. Pro's still get their kills while macro'd to the hilt.
Stamina sets synergize great for Massive burst abilities that hit like a truck. WB, Dawnbreaker, Incap Strike.
Magicka has Dawnbreaker removed as a Magicka ability
Nearly all Magicka spells that do damage are most tied to either a weak Dot or 2 or 3 second delay (windup).
(/wink) Rally/Vigor nuetralizes most dots to near uselessness.
Only one magicka spell gives anyone Stam specced angst of course and is Jesus Beam .

5th Dominant period: Future
Guesses but...
PTS Weapon Ultimates:
2Hand Onslaught Ult with the nickname Finger of God is ridiculous in utility with the 4 benefits (Damage, resist bypass, resist steal, and then insult to injury refund Ult)

Destro - Those testing are saying it's weaker and more expensive than what we already have in Meteor. Basically negative sum.
More info to come on Armor sets thought several I've seen since the last patch and the new for Stamina look once again to continue to provide massive burst, and Magicka ones more Dots to get nullified by Rally/Vigor. So nothing new.

LegacyDM · September 2016

Cronopoly wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Force-Siphon wrote: »

Elder stamina online, such a joke now

Um correct me if I am wrong but for what a year and half to 2 years the game was called Elder Sticks Online or Elder Skirts Online. What they buff up stamina a little bit and it's the end of the game now ?

Lets set it straight
1st Dominant period: Light Armor wearing Magicka DK's Perma Talons CC, Perma Blocking, unkillable health regen.

2nd Dominant period: Sorcs stacking of at least 3 Shields as a crutch cause they couldn't dodgeroll worthwhile - Also no penalty Streak.

3rd Dominant period: Zos introduced the Magicka synergy for Proxy Det / Vicious Death / Alchemist...sigh, largest mass killings in ESO history.

4th Dominant period: Now Stamina Domination
Magicka Shields nerfed to hell, Sorcs and other magicka classes realize they are limited in Stamina based PVP skills like Dodgeroll/Sprint for reposition/CCBreak and normal players suffer real hard. Pro's still get their kills while macro'd to the hilt.
Stamina sets synergize great for Massive burst abilities that hit like a truck. WB, Dawnbreaker, Incap Strike.
Magicka has Dawnbreaker removed as a Magicka ability
Nearly all Magicka spells that do damage are most tied to either a weak Dot or 2 or 3 second delay (windup).
(/wink) Rally/Vigor nuetralizes most dots to near uselessness.
Only one magicka spell gives anyone Stam specced angst of course and is Jesus Beam .

5th Dominant period: Future
Guesses but...
PTS Weapon Ultimates:
2Hand Onslaught Ult with the nickname Finger of God is ridiculous in utility with the 4 benefits (Damage, resist bypass, resist steal, and then insult to injury refund Ult)
Destro - Those testing are saying it's weaker and more expensive than what we already have in Meteor. Basically negative sum.
More info to come on Armor sets thought several I've seen since the last patch and the new for Stamina look once again to continue to provide massive burst, and Magicka ones more Dots to get nullified by Rally/Vigor. So nothing new.

Great summary, this about sums it up. Gotta sticky this.

Pinja · September 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Force-Siphon wrote: »

Elder stamina online, such a joke now

Um correct me if I am wrong but for what a year and half to 2 years the game was called Elder Sticks Online or Elder Skirts Online. What they buff up stamina a little bit and it's the end of the game now ?

Oh ya I nearly forgot how Overpowerd professional Magic Sorc small IvX potential has been for the past year:

Sypher wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhcRXs6kmms

Like the extreme skill & variance that has been required to take us down these past patches, has been a total justification for what we've added to Stams tool base;
-They couldn't guarantee killing us in 1 tic of damage [Fixed]
-They didn't have an exclusive insta tic ultimate like Dawnbraker [Fixed+]
-They only had About 10 different AoE's that didn't add up to Poxy's 10s charge in a single instant tic [Fixed]
-They didn't have Loreable additive weapon effect enchants that scaled to poison [Fixed]
-They weren't Immortal enough from Stacking 3-4 HoT's, evasion, & roll dodge from Multiple Radiants [W.I.P]
-They didn't have cheap, insta cast, non-commitible, ultimates that surpassed Soul assault & Proxy damage combined [Coming Soon]
-They didn't have a refundable way to instantly Layout Tanks who committed their entire character to slow, safe, & costly gameplay [Coming Soon]
-They didn't have the time to check out my Dual Wand suggestion to realize the basic mechanics that magica is being starved of [W.I.P]

Needless to say @zuto40 they are going to want you to switch to 'Dry' rub, that way you can buy more crowns. Because that can be the only reason their [Snip] us so hard.

Edited by Pinja for Dual Wands.

SHADOW2KK · September 2016

Adapt

GreenSoup2HoT · September 2016

This is how stamina felt when Proxi and Vicious Death were OP. As a stamina user, im going to bask in the glory. Feelsgoodman.

Pandorii · September 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

This is how stamina felt when Proxi and Vicious Death were OP. As a stamina user, im going to bask in the glory. Feelsgoodman.

Stam vs. Stam though. It's not like you're going to be getting any free AP from magicka types, at least not without heavy armor and jesus beam. They know better now. Stamina types should be equally as concerned with imbalance.

Gilliamtherogue · September 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

This is how stamina felt when Proxi and Vicious Death were OP. As a stamina user, im going to bask in the glory. Feelsgoodman.

It does indeed, FeelsGoodMan. While I don't condone of the 'massive' balance issue, I see more of this game than the majority of population does and I know for a fact that the gap between Magicka and Stam isn't nearly as big as people make it up to be. There are clear advantages and disadvantages of each play style and most of the issue of the imbalance comes from item sets, rather than skills. Sets like Viper, Velidreth, etc + stealth damage are some of the most toxic things out there and the game would be much better without them. Regardless, since playing since some of the earliest betas and continuously throughout I have seen Magicka dominate for over a year. Stamina finally gets a place in the spotlight and everyone loses their minds.

What's even funnier, is if the burst meta of stam in PvP wasn't around, Cyrodiil would literally be nothing but perma blocking templars and DK's. As if that would be any better.

GreenSoup2HoT · September 2016

Pandorii wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

This is how stamina felt when Proxi and Vicious Death were OP. As a stamina user, im going to bask in the glory. Feelsgoodman.

Stam vs. Stam though. It's not like you're going to be getting any free AP from magicka types, at least not without heavy armor and jesus beam. They know better now. Stamina types should be equally as concerned with imbalance.

100%. I advocate for a lot of balance issues. All though i look at this game as a whole more so then just a 1v1 or 1vX point of view compared to many forum users.

SHADOW2KK · September 2016

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

This is how stamina felt when Proxi and Vicious Death were OP. As a stamina user, im going to bask in the glory. Feelsgoodman.

It does indeed, FeelsGoodMan. While I don't condone of the 'massive' balance issue, I see more of this game than the majority of population does and I know for a fact that the gap between Magicka and Stam isn't nearly as big as people make it up to be. There are clear advantages and disadvantages of each play style and most of the issue of the imbalance comes from item sets, rather than skills. Sets like Viper, Velidreth, etc + stealth damage are some of the most toxic things out there and the game would be much better without them. Regardless, since playing since some of the earliest betas and continuously throughout I have seen Magicka dominate for over a year. Stamina finally gets a place in the spotlight and everyone loses their minds.

What's even funnier, is if the burst meta of stam in PvP wasn't around, Cyrodiil would literally be nothing but perma blocking templars and DK's. As if that would be any better.

Couldnt agree more, harry potter staff wielding wannabs had their time of day, for a year and more.

Its our time now, the rise of the stamina builds.

Know your place now those of you who dissed stam builds way back when:P

Pandorii · September 2016

Yall. I encourage you guys to check out the following live stream from PAX. It's about PvP, but many questions about combat were brought up. It looks like they're aware of the imbalance, and they are working on it. Unfortunately, there's no ETA.

https://www.twitch.tv/bethesda/v/87602592

GreenSoup2HoT · September 2016

@Gilliamtherogue

Stealth burst wouldnt even be an issue if people slotted Radiant Mage Light. People are to consumed with there 1v1/X builds that they refuse to slot it.

Every magicka build in game that uses inner light could sacrifice 5% magicka to prevent 50% of stealth burst and prevent the stun aswell. Yet people still complain about gankers.

Rogues will always be cancer regardless of the MMO you play but that doesnt mean they shouldnt exist.

Like you said, without gankers we would have tanks everywhere. We need roles like this to even out the balance of power.

Velidrith is overperforming though just to be clear on burst sets. I used Viper back in the v14 days and nobody complained.

Lord-Otto · September 2016

Cronopoly wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Force-Siphon wrote: »

Elder stamina online, such a joke now

Um correct me if I am wrong but for what a year and half to 2 years the game was called Elder Sticks Online or Elder Skirts Online. What they buff up stamina a little bit and it's the end of the game now ?

Lets set it straight
1st Dominant period: Light Armor wearing Magicka DK's Perma Talons CC, Perma Blocking, unkillable health regen.

2nd Dominant period: Sorcs stacking of at least 3 Shields as a crutch cause they couldn't dodgeroll worthwhile - Also no penalty Streak.

3rd Dominant period: Zos introduced the Magicka synergy for Proxy Det / Vicious Death / Alchemist...sigh, largest mass killings in ESO history.

4th Dominant period: Now Stamina Domination
Magicka Shields nerfed to hell, Sorcs and other magicka classes realize they are limited in Stamina based PVP skills like Dodgeroll/Sprint for reposition/CCBreak and normal players suffer real hard. Pro's still get their kills while macro'd to the hilt.
Stamina sets synergize great for Massive burst abilities that hit like a truck. WB, Dawnbreaker, Incap Strike.
Magicka has Dawnbreaker removed as a Magicka ability
Nearly all Magicka spells that do damage are most tied to either a weak Dot or 2 or 3 second delay (windup).
(/wink) Rally/Vigor nuetralizes most dots to near uselessness.
Only one magicka spell gives anyone Stam specced angst of course and is Jesus Beam .

5th Dominant period: Future
Guesses but...
PTS Weapon Ultimates:
2Hand Onslaught Ult with the nickname Finger of God is ridiculous in utility with the 4 benefits (Damage, resist bypass, resist steal, and then insult to injury refund Ult)
Destro - Those testing are saying it's weaker and more expensive than what we already have in Meteor. Basically negative sum.
More info to come on Armor sets thought several I've seen since the last patch and the new for Stamina look once again to continue to provide massive burst, and Magicka ones more Dots to get nullified by Rally/Vigor. So nothing new.

From console perspective:

Period 1 (Vanilla): Mag DK
Kept zergs in check. Was OP. Never experienced on console.

Period 2 (Tamriel Unlimited): Champion Points
No, not sorcerers, but every PC transferred char with 3000+ CPs. Also, Crit Rush -> Wrecking Blow -> Dead. Also, infinite rollblades > shield stacking.
I have witnessed a large variety of classes during that period in Cyrodiil, and sorcs DID NOT stand out. And most certainly not to DK wings. Sure, killing them might have taken a while on mag builds, but stamina could ignore Harness Magicka and had the better damage CP. Also, light armor was half as strong as medium, in a period when penetration wasn't rampant. I can remember one, ONE sorc who actually posed a threat. He's stam now, by the way.
People really like to blur this period.

Period 3 (Imperial City): Nightblade
Or should I call it Trollblade? It's easy to see how IC massively favoured NBs, a trend to be continued for two following DLCs. Mag DKs got completely extinct, forcing me to make a new character. Also, SHIELD MOTHERLOVIN BREAKER!!! By the way, anyone remember the old armor nirnhoned trait? Called the Nirnhoned Crisis? We can argue whether magblades or stamblades were better, but in regards to Shieldbreaker and the old Mighty/Elemental Expert CPs and ridiculously strong nirnhoned armor, I'm going out on a limb here and proclaim stamblades the winners. Also, the leaderboards did.

Period 4 (Vicious Death): Magblade
Oh, yes, the dreaded and insane VD period. Funny how this set is almost tailor-made for magblades only. Yes, I've seen one or two sorcs trying to use it, even a temp, but who really benefitted from this set, be honest... The IC-Nightblades only had to get a new set and respec a bit, something everyone has to do every patch, anyway, and voilà! Leaving the other classes far, far in the dust again.

Period 5 (Dark Brotherhood): Stamina (mostly DK and NB)
And here we are, again. After the CP overhaul in period 4, ZOS said "screw it!" and rocketed stamina dps through the roof while obliterating magicka shields, sustain and penetration/resistance. You thought your expensive Potent Nirncrux was the balancing factor, evening the odds? Well, think again!
I could go deeper into detail, but it's clear how stamina has better sustain, broken mitigation tools, more utility and insane damage over magicka. Or how many magsorcs are there in Cyrodiil, again?
And Wroebel initially wanted to buff Khajiit stamina prowess for Shadow of the Hist, LMFAO! x'D

Period 6 (Upcoming One Tamriel): Stamina
Funny how every good set for magicka (Necropotence, Silks of the Sun) immediately gets a stamina version, only less specific and therefore, better (Hulking Draugr, the physical bonus set). On top of that an OP monster set (Selene), because Velidreth apparently wasn't OP enough. The forum is burning with protests about magicka, but Senior Wroebel decides to go ahead and further buff stamina.
Saddest thing? This is only on the testing server yet, but people have already reached a clear conclusion, and yet, we absolutely, 100% know this will make it into the final version, completely unchanged. We can look at this thread in two months and listen to the echoes in the empty Mage's Guild halls, knowing that everyone saw this coming, yet ZOS refused to actually provide an enjoyable experience for all paying customers.

Dracane · September 2016

Eric Wrobel answered a few question on a stream chat yesterday.
He only said, that they will balance the ults base on our feedback and that they will adress magicka-stamina dps with the next update. Whenever this is going to be