Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

At the end of the day Shadows of the Hist, WGT and ICP base difficulty was there for the people who wanted hardmode.

ICP is the pledge today and the ammount of people doing it was precisely bugger all.

I dont care about difficulty. I usually have to pug this crap. Used to be, things like Vet raids, raids in general, were the difficult stuff. I have no problem with things being difficult for those that want it. But puting -everyone- on blast probably isn't going to work.

They nerfed all the dungeons except those with Shadows of the Hist.

I've run Vet WGT using a horrible build with CP100 PUGs (scaled to CP160). It was easy.

There's a video of a group beating vWGT pre-nerf using only light/heavy attacks.

Wanna know what happens if these dungeons all become 100% faceroll easy? People get their loot and never return. Unless it's for a daily Vet, they become utterly boring. Then when you have the monster sets you need, there is zero incentive to rerun cobtent you could faceroll while half asleep.

I could form a group of players USING SKYRIM BUILDS and no CP yet still come out successful in beating the base game Vet dungeons

And yet we see the opposite happen with pledges every single day. Hundreds shout in zone, looking for groups, looking for pledges. I've asked a few of them. Y'know why they do it?

Because they like doing it.

People with full engine guardian. People with full skoria. People with full Kena.

There's a video somewhere of people beating VWGT either duo or solo. That means precisely bugger all. Are you really going to take a hatchet to the game, because some people did some incredible things through mastery of the mechanics? We should be praising them. Not making the game harder in order to ensure they will never do it again. I guarentee. It dont matter how big a wall you build. People will find a way over it. Plus, if the playerbase is as reward driven and impatient as you seem to think they are...why stifle the people having fun with it, in a effort for balance that will only *** those players off?

A more accurate way to say the thing you said in bold? Is 'people who dont enjoy content get their loot and never return'. Every PVE'r who has had to PVP for vigor has been that guy, every PVPer who's done pledges for the passives is that guy. We dont take a hatchet to the content for it.

And yes, they nerfed WGT and ICP. The health on those guys and resistances on those guys is no longer massive. Big woop. Dont make Lord Warden any less annoying.

Simply not true. Don't know why you defend this terrible practice either. Base game group dungeons are ridiculously easy because they haven't seen any real updates since they were V14. Naturally they are a joke with CP and how pretty much everyone is between 200-400 CP -_- (CP160 scaling in base game dungeons gave enemies and bosses a tiny bit more health but ZOS never came back to attempt any proper changes. Obviously waited for One Tamriel)

In the bolded part, if those players still run that content, it's for the Pledge Keys or the Monster Helmet. Nothing else. There is no difference between the base game Normal/Vet dungeons and the quests I ran a year ago over in Bangkorai. Never returning except quickly for a distinct purpose..

You're comparing the casual community to the players who have difficulty holding a controller or finding buttons on a keyboard. There is a very steep difference between not playing to be the best, and creating a new character one day expecting to defeat what are supposed to be the "hardest" dungeons on Veteran the next day.

No one has difficulty anymore taking down the base game Vet dungeons. Groups where no one has any CP or any remnant of a specific role beat this dungeon with minimal effort and non-set gear. Only when a Vet pledge says to run them or a player wants a monster helmet can you find groups for the base game Vet dungeons.

vRoM and vCoS (Shadows of the Hist dungeons) are the truly difficult dungeons. They provide a good challenge for players who are casual and hardcore alike. You need to follow mechanics and not blindly heal/DPS/tank to faceroll win. You will most likely actually need to use a Tank and a Healer for once. Hardcore players can even attempt to defeat the final boss on Difficult Mode as well. This is content for the players who some amount of time into ESO and where at some of the group members are capable at their role.

vWGT, vICP, and sometimes vCoA provide the mildy difficult content for casuals. They are all easiest to find groups for. You cannot find groups for other dungeons because those dungeons are either too tough or mind-numbingly easy and boring.

If ZOS listened to you and made Vet versions of the current Normal-only dungeons all faceroll easy, people would be very disappointed. Just more content to ignore unless it's for the Pledge. (Monster helms will have a 100% drop rate in U12)

I'll break it down for you:

• Want 0CP, zero experience needed content? Run the bunch of base game group dungeons on Normal.

• Want something you need 0CP-100CP for and some almost correctly-leveled gear? Run base game group dungeons on any difficulty including nMA (Orsinium), nWGT and nICP (IC DLC)

• Want something that you need 100CP-200CP for and some set gear? Run base game group dungeons on any difficulty including the IC dungeons, nDSA, and nRoM and nCoS (SotH DLC)

• Want something you need 150CP-300CP for and set gear? Run any group dungeon or normal trial.

• Want something you need at least 300CP for and strong set gear? Run any group dungeon, normal trial, vMA, vDSA, and set the final boss in both vRoM and vCoS to Difficult Mode

• Want something you need 400CP for and strong set gear? Run anything you want. Vet trials included.

• Want something you need 500+CP for mostly Gold/all Gold set gear for? Run anything you want. Attempt to fight Rakkhat on Difficult Mode in vMoL. just leaving this off the list since only 24 players have beaten this since it released

There are very few players with below 100CP. Most everyone is between 250CP-450CP nowadays on PS4. Those who are under 250CP are almost always returning players, while those who are above 450CP play ESO a lot. Thank the awesome Champion Point Catch-Up mechanic and the ease+very low cost of obtaining strong CP160 gear these days.

I'll end this by saying these dungeons need to be on par with or slightly easier than Vet Ruins of Mazzatun and Vet Cradle of Shadows. Very, very simple. Best case scenario would be if 2-3 are more difficult, 5 or so are the same, and the rest are easier.

Your solution of catering to the very small playerbase who have ~50CP is a terrible idea. If a dungeon says it is on "Veteran" aka "Hard" mode you should actually need to put in a tad of effort to succeed with a horrible group instead of just running over everything like your Hybrid DK is an Emperor fighting mudcrabs

Ill take before nerf city of ash difficulty I like running dungeons but I lose interest when a bosses entire layout is one shot gimmicks that prevent everything a class can do..

I run a stam sorc and that mid boss in vet cradle doesn't sit long enough to dot to heal me and seems impervious to ranged dmg and seems keen on one shot slapping tanks and healers.

I'm fine with a strong boss but long drawn out gimmick heavy bosses are obnoxious and kill the fun white gold was acceptable difficulty but overall not liking the latest making cp 160 dungeons but only cp 400+ standing a chance completing it. Sure there's a few who face roll new content on new characters but were not all those ppl.. I like to play a game complete content not live breath and huff the game on such a hardcore level that I'm kinda expecting a paycheck for a part time job to come from it....

Would love class roles to return untankable adhd bosses bosses with health so high you need 4 dps no healer or tank and tanked bosses that require near 3 dps burns but rely on having a tank and healer and only 2 dps etc

Mettaricana wrote: »

Ill take before nerf city of ash difficulty I like running dungeons but I lose interest when a bosses entire layout is one shot gimmicks that prevent everything a class can do..

City of Ash was nerfed because of the same people choosing Difficulty similar to base game dungeons in this thread.
Bosses tend to hit pretty hard because you are meant to fight it with four players, rather than alone. This is why you are meant to run with 1 Tank, 1 Healer, and 2 Damage Dealers (a requirement stripped from all but four Vet dungeons atm).

Mettaricana wrote: »

I run a stam sorc and that mid boss in vet cradle doesn't sit long enough to dot to heal me and seems impervious to ranged dmg and seems keen on one shot slapping tanks and healers.

The whole theme of the dungeon is Darkness. When an enemy stands in the Dark, they are invincible. When you stand in the Dark, you are slowed, damaged, and have the sides of your screen blacken. Similar to every other enemy in that dungeon, move them into the Light.

Sounds like you are talking about Khephidaen. The "one shot" is from you getting hit by the boss, who the tank should be handling. This boss has deadly heavy attacks and a deadly AoE. Have your tank block or roll the heavy attack, but always dodge the AoE.

Mettaricana wrote: »

I'm fine with a strong boss but long drawn out gimmick heavy bosses are obnoxious and kill the fun white gold was acceptable difficulty but overall not liking the latest making cp 160 dungeons but only cp 400+ standing a chance completing it. Sure there's a few who face roll new content on new characters but were not all those ppl.. I like to play a game complete content not live breath and huff the game on such a hardcore level that I'm kinda expecting a paycheck for a part time job to come from it....

If a game ever feels like a job it might be time to take a nice, long break from it.

300CP is sort of the "required" amount. That said, I've helped tons of players between CP100-CP300 complete both of the new dungeons on Vet. Not as demanding as you think. They are much more mechanics-based instead of just giving bosses/mobs inflated stats (finally!), so if you know what to do, they end up feeling a lot easier after a few runs.

Mettaricana wrote: »

Would love class roles to return untankable adhd bosses bosses with health so high you need 4 dps no healer or tank and tanked bosses that require near 3 dps burns but rely on having a tank and healer and only 2 dps etc

I agree. Class roles are great! However, only the two new dungeons actually require you to play your role (on Vet). Besides that, you can run any role you want and things can work out. If you love roles, I'd expect you to love vWGT, vICP, vRoM, and vCoS as well

Vaoh wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

At the end of the day Shadows of the Hist, WGT and ICP base difficulty was there for the people who wanted hardmode.

ICP is the pledge today and the ammount of people doing it was precisely bugger all.

I dont care about difficulty. I usually have to pug this crap. Used to be, things like Vet raids, raids in general, were the difficult stuff. I have no problem with things being difficult for those that want it. But puting -everyone- on blast probably isn't going to work.

They nerfed all the dungeons except those with Shadows of the Hist.

I've run Vet WGT using a horrible build with CP100 PUGs (scaled to CP160). It was easy.

There's a video of a group beating vWGT pre-nerf using only light/heavy attacks.

Wanna know what happens if these dungeons all become 100% faceroll easy? People get their loot and never return. Unless it's for a daily Vet, they become utterly boring. Then when you have the monster sets you need, there is zero incentive to rerun cobtent you could faceroll while half asleep.

I could form a group of players USING SKYRIM BUILDS and no CP yet still come out successful in beating the base game Vet dungeons

And yet we see the opposite happen with pledges every single day. Hundreds shout in zone, looking for groups, looking for pledges. I've asked a few of them. Y'know why they do it?

Because they like doing it.

People with full engine guardian. People with full skoria. People with full Kena.

There's a video somewhere of people beating VWGT either duo or solo. That means precisely bugger all. Are you really going to take a hatchet to the game, because some people did some incredible things through mastery of the mechanics? We should be praising them. Not making the game harder in order to ensure they will never do it again. I guarentee. It dont matter how big a wall you build. People will find a way over it. Plus, if the playerbase is as reward driven and impatient as you seem to think they are...why stifle the people having fun with it, in a effort for balance that will only *** those players off?

A more accurate way to say the thing you said in bold? Is 'people who dont enjoy content get their loot and never return'. Every PVE'r who has had to PVP for vigor has been that guy, every PVPer who's done pledges for the passives is that guy. We dont take a hatchet to the content for it.

And yes, they nerfed WGT and ICP. The health on those guys and resistances on those guys is no longer massive. Big woop. Dont make Lord Warden any less annoying.

Simply not true. Don't know why you defend this terrible practice either. Base game group dungeons are ridiculously easy because they haven't seen any real updates since they were V14. Naturally they are a joke with CP and how pretty much everyone is between 200-400 CP -_- (CP160 scaling in base game dungeons gave enemies and bosses a tiny bit more health but ZOS never came back to attempt any proper changes. Obviously waited for One Tamriel)

In the bolded part, if those players still run that content, it's for the Pledge Keys or the Monster Helmet. Nothing else. There is no difference between the base game Normal/Vet dungeons and the quests I ran a year ago over in Bangkorai. Never returning except quickly for a distinct purpose..

You're comparing the casual community to the players who have difficulty holding a controller or finding buttons on a keyboard. There is a very steep difference between not playing to be the best, and creating a new character one day expecting to defeat what are supposed to be the "hardest" dungeons on Veteran the next day.

No one has difficulty anymore taking down the base game Vet dungeons. Groups where no one has any CP or any remnant of a specific role beat this dungeon with minimal effort and non-set gear. Only when a Vet pledge says to run them or a player wants a monster helmet can you find groups for the base game Vet dungeons.

vRoM and vCoS (Shadows of the Hist dungeons) are the truly difficult dungeons. They provide a good challenge for players who are casual and hardcore alike. You need to follow mechanics and not blindly heal/DPS/tank to faceroll win. You will most likely actually need to use a Tank and a Healer for once. Hardcore players can even attempt to defeat the final boss on Difficult Mode as well. This is content for the players who some amount of time into ESO and where at some of the group members are capable at their role.

vWGT, vICP, and sometimes vCoA provide the mildy difficult content for casuals. They are all easiest to find groups for. You cannot find groups for other dungeons because those dungeons are either too tough or mind-numbingly easy and boring.

If ZOS listened to you and made Vet versions of the current Normal-only dungeons all faceroll easy, people would be very disappointed. Just more content to ignore unless it's for the Pledge. (Monster helms will have a 100% drop rate in U12)

I'll break it down for you:

• Want 0CP, zero experience needed content? Run the bunch of base game group dungeons on Normal.

• Want something you need 0CP-100CP for and some almost correctly-leveled gear? Run base game group dungeons on any difficulty including nMA (Orsinium), nWGT and nICP (IC DLC)

• Want something that you need 100CP-200CP for and some set gear? Run base game group dungeons on any difficulty including the IC dungeons, nDSA, and nRoM and nCoS (SotH DLC)

• Want something you need 150CP-300CP for and set gear? Run any group dungeon or normal trial.

• Want something you need at least 300CP for and strong set gear? Run any group dungeon, normal trial, vMA, vDSA, and set the final boss in both vRoM and vCoS to Difficult Mode

• Want something you need 400CP for and strong set gear? Run anything you want. Vet trials included.

• Want something you need 500+CP for mostly Gold/all Gold set gear for? Run anything you want. Attempt to fight Rakkhat on Difficult Mode in vMoL. just leaving this off the list since only 24 players have beaten this since it released

There are very few players with below 100CP. Most everyone is between 250CP-450CP nowadays on PS4. Those who are under 250CP are almost always returning players, while those who are above 450CP play ESO a lot. Thank the awesome Champion Point Catch-Up mechanic and the ease+very low cost of obtaining strong CP160 gear these days.

I'll end this by saying these dungeons need to be on par with or slightly easier than Vet Ruins of Mazzatun and Vet Cradle of Shadows. Very, very simple. Best case scenario would be if 2-3 are more difficult, 5 or so are the same, and the rest are easier.

Your solution of catering to the very small playerbase who have ~50CP is a terrible idea. If a dungeon says it is on "Veteran" aka "Hard" mode you should actually need to put in a tad of effort to succeed with a horrible group instead of just running over everything like your Hybrid DK is an Emperor fighting mudcrabs

You lost me when you decided to competely throw out what I have witnessed because it does not agree with your stance.

If you want to argue selectively picking whatever facts fit the conclusion you want to achieve, go into politics.

But for the first point, and no others, because no others are -worth- adressed...No I am not comparing anyone to anyone. I am stating what I have seen. And apparently you wont even consider it because it does not agree with your conclusions.

I pug these dungeons every day because I enjoy the content. I know a bunch of others that do the same. People like doing it. Get over it. The content does not need to be harder, your endgame hard as balls content fix does not need to be fullfilled. I, running my full engine guardian, and every person running full bloodspawn, full skoria, for shiggles, is living defiance of your apparent 'people do it then leave' arguement. And we ain' going away.

You are a minority. I see it every day when I see the ammount of people who dont queue for the DLC dungeons. Whether you accept it or not, the evidence does not lie. It's why WGT and ICP were nerfed. (IE, they pretty much looked at the number of people taking the quest day one, the ammount completeing it, and who ever took it again. I'd love to actually see those numbers.) It's why SoTH will be reballanced, most like. Your generalization of the players is laughable, I see people who cant chew gum and walk and have trouble with vet dungeons every damn day. And I see people who shred bosses like it's going out of style queue in dungeon finder for the gold pledge, full skoria, maelstrom weapons, and just wreck house. Quit projecting.

At the end of the day, this entire conversation can be summed up in, oddly enough, what happened yesterday with VICP with the pledge in zone.

Tank1: "Why the hell is no one doing the pledge it's so easy"

Me: "Probs because it's vICP. Most people find it annoying."

Tank1: "You (Censored for forums) *** stop playing this game if it's so hard for you"

The ammount of people that yelled and put me on ignore was unprecidented. People who haddn't been queueing. People who haddn't been looking for groups. That is the story of the call for difficulty. It's going to a survey and telling people you drink a rich, dark coffee roast, because that's whats socially sophisticated to say. Then, when the time comes, you get something weak and milky. Said it before, I'll say it ad infinitum. Difficulty is currently 'in vogue' so we must bring difficulty to everything. Otherwise we are not real gamers.

It's a fad. A bandwagon for people to jump on. And I wonder just how many have jumped on who dont even believe in what their shouting.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

DLC dungeons are too hard and so much mechanics to remember. If all vet dungeons became like that then I would probably quit.

Though other veteran dungeons now are a piece of cake and so something in between would be nice

You say that now, after you are successful once you will feel a sense of acomplishment. Trust me you will quit faster if you walked through them with a drunk blind group. There are videos of people beating the ic dungeons naked with no abilities. Your having hard time do to poor leadership in group

This is the thing said by every dark souls fanatic to everyone who dissents. "You just need to beat it, then you'll see what we see"

Some people just dont want what your selling.