Red Mountain new stam dps meta?

Asmael · August 2016

triklops79 wrote: »

This.

Sadly, the limited HP of guard makes those parses quite unreliable >.> Poison Injection, Implosion, DW passive execute...

Just did a few tests, but that'd be better if there were guards with more HP. I think I saw a few in Wrothgar. Will come back soon™

Asmael · August 2016

Well, guards in Wrothgar do have 10m HP, but they also use bash, so you need to block (thus lose time, makes parses unreliable, etc).

Or grab a tank, that might be something.

More on topic, I feel like RM is too similar to Viper to warrant its place as new BiS (and Viper is just not good enough).

WTB actual DPS dummy.

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

Asmael wrote: »

Well, guards in Wrothgar do have 10m HP, but they also use bash, so you need to block (thus lose time, makes parses unreliable, etc).

Or grab a tank, that might be something.

More on topic, I feel like RM is too similar to Viper to warrant its place as new BiS (and Viper is just not good enough).

WTB actual DPS dummy.

Viper and rm are not even comparable if you have a good rotation with multiple dots. Viper does 50-100% less dmg. Its already tested to proc for about 2k dps. Look triklops screen rm 3.7k. And thats single target up close full spam which is where the viper is even close to viable. And in any other combat situations rm is totally supreme.

peniku8 · August 2016

Asmael wrote: »

Well, guards in Wrothgar do have 10m HP, but they also use bash, so you need to block (thus lose time, makes parses unreliable, etc).

Or grab a tank, that might be something.

More on topic, I feel like RM is too similar to Viper to warrant its place as new BiS (and Viper is just not good enough).

WTB actual DPS dummy.

You should read the entire thread before double posting here

Also, that test is only to find out how much Red Mountain 5pcs proc dps is, which is no execute, thus not being dependant of the Guard's hp.

Flak wrote: »

@peniku8
The calculation for it goes like this...
If you have a critrate of 85% it means that in average 85% of your attacks will crit and 15% not.
Shadow increases your crit damage by 18%, so now you only have to multiply it with your Critchance to get the average damage increase: 0.18 * 0.85 = 0.153 = 15.3%. So you see the higher your critchance is the more effective it becomes.

You're saying that Crit Damage = Base DMG * Shadow * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Horn)
which I highly doubt. I will test it later, just to be sure.
Also, please read what I wrote earlier, I already explained it there and like I said, I'm not entirely sure so thats why I will test it.

Flak · August 2016

peniku8 wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Well, guards in Wrothgar do have 10m HP, but they also use bash, so you need to block (thus lose time, makes parses unreliable, etc).

Or grab a tank, that might be something.

More on topic, I feel like RM is too similar to Viper to warrant its place as new BiS (and Viper is just not good enough).

WTB actual DPS dummy.

You should read the entire thread before double posting here
Also, that test is only to find out how much Red Mountain 5pcs proc dps is, which is no execute, thus not being dependant of the Guard's hp.

Flak wrote: »

@peniku8
The calculation for it goes like this...
If you have a critrate of 85% it means that in average 85% of your attacks will crit and 15% not.
Shadow increases your crit damage by 18%, so now you only have to multiply it with your Critchance to get the average damage increase: 0.18 * 0.85 = 0.153 = 15.3%. So you see the higher your critchance is the more effective it becomes.

You're saying that Crit Damage = Base DMG * Shadow * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Horn)
which I highly doubt. I will test it later, just to be sure.
Also, please read what I wrote earlier, I already explained it there and like I said, I'm not entirely sure so thats why I will test it.

Nah I'm not taking any other buffs into account, it's independent from those.
The damage of your crits is increased by 18%, that you multiply by your chance to get the average dps increase.

Afaik It's calculated like this 1.5 + 1.5 * Shadow + 1.5 * CP + 1.5 * Force etc.
Some passives like the ones from NB and Templar only increase the bonus damage so in that case it's 0.5 * passive.

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

Saturn · August 2016

It would be nice to see it on more longer fights over 2 minutes. It looks like it is comparable to Viper though, in terms of how much dps it contributes. The biggest downside to it is that the fire damage does not scale with stamina, weapon crit, weapon damage, which the Viper does. I do hear that a lot of people use Red Mountain and Viper together in PvP with crit rush.

I will say that after seeing this I'm definitely going to get a full set and test it out.

Khairiah · August 2016

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

What is the cooldown on Red Mountain?

There is no cooldown

It's 2s.

Im certain I procced several times at once against big group of mobs? Are u certain its 2s cd? And is that cd per mob perhaps?

Has ps4 even gotten the update yet?? Patch notes tell me u havent

No us console players has to wait until the 16th for the update.. so while all u fancy pc players are having fun with new dungeons, trials and glitches/bugs we are still waiting. Hopefully, but unlikely for a version with less bugs.

Destruent · August 2016

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

New record proc rate.

1.15 sec cooldown here:

This fits into the cooldown of 2 seconds. First procc at 0 Seconds, second procc at 2 Seconds combat time.

Flak wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Well, guards in Wrothgar do have 10m HP, but they also use bash, so you need to block (thus lose time, makes parses unreliable, etc).

Or grab a tank, that might be something.

More on topic, I feel like RM is too similar to Viper to warrant its place as new BiS (and Viper is just not good enough).

WTB actual DPS dummy.

You should read the entire thread before double posting here
Also, that test is only to find out how much Red Mountain 5pcs proc dps is, which is no execute, thus not being dependant of the Guard's hp.

Flak wrote: »

@peniku8
The calculation for it goes like this...
If you have a critrate of 85% it means that in average 85% of your attacks will crit and 15% not.
Shadow increases your crit damage by 18%, so now you only have to multiply it with your Critchance to get the average damage increase: 0.18 * 0.85 = 0.153 = 15.3%. So you see the higher your critchance is the more effective it becomes.

You're saying that Crit Damage = Base DMG * Shadow * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Horn)
which I highly doubt. I will test it later, just to be sure.
Also, please read what I wrote earlier, I already explained it there and like I said, I'm not entirely sure so thats why I will test it.

Nah I'm not taking any other buffs into account, it's independent from those.
The damage of your crits is increased by 18%, that you multiply by your chance to get the average dps increase.

Afaik It's calculated like this 1.5 + 1.5 * Shadow + 1.5 * CP + 1.5 * Force etc.
Some passives like the ones from NB and Templar only increase the bonus damage so in that case it's 0.5 * passive.

The fixed those passives a long time ago, they now give full 10% critdmg

Your formula is completely off, Critdmg is calculated by 1+(0.5 + Passive (0.1) + Trap (0.12) + CP)*WH (1.3)

To get the actual DPS-increase you have to calc the following: (1+newcrit*newcritdmg)/(1+crit*critdmg)
where newcritdmg and critdmg is only the extra critical damage so 0.5 as basevalue, 0.62 with trap and so on.

Dromede · August 2016

How much would the gold Red Mountain ring go for? Got it yesterday from HelRa... PC/NA

Mettaricana · August 2016

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

My question is what drops the RED MOUNTAIN set at cp 160?

HRC normal drops purple gear and jewelry

HRC vet drops purple gear and golden jewelry

afaik

Can't we get anything in this game not tied to trials.... seriously every gear set is stuck to a trial with pitiful sets stuck in group dungeons...

Destruent · August 2016

Mettaricana wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

My question is what drops the RED MOUNTAIN set at cp 160?

HRC normal drops purple gear and jewelry

HRC vet drops purple gear and golden jewelry

afaik

Can't we get anything in this game not tied to trials.... seriously every gear set is stuck to a trial with pitiful sets stuck in group dungeons...

Step 1: Walk to a guildstore

Step 2: Buy this set

Step 3: Stop complaining about usefull drops in endgamecontent.

Thank you

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

Destruent wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

New record proc rate.

1.15 sec cooldown here:

This fits into the cooldown of 2 seconds. First procc at 0 Seconds, second procc at 2 Seconds combat time.

Flak wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Well, guards in Wrothgar do have 10m HP, but they also use bash, so you need to block (thus lose time, makes parses unreliable, etc).

Or grab a tank, that might be something.

More on topic, I feel like RM is too similar to Viper to warrant its place as new BiS (and Viper is just not good enough).

WTB actual DPS dummy.

You should read the entire thread before double posting here
Also, that test is only to find out how much Red Mountain 5pcs proc dps is, which is no execute, thus not being dependant of the Guard's hp.

Flak wrote: »

@peniku8
The calculation for it goes like this...
If you have a critrate of 85% it means that in average 85% of your attacks will crit and 15% not.
Shadow increases your crit damage by 18%, so now you only have to multiply it with your Critchance to get the average damage increase: 0.18 * 0.85 = 0.153 = 15.3%. So you see the higher your critchance is the more effective it becomes.

You're saying that Crit Damage = Base DMG * Shadow * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Horn)
which I highly doubt. I will test it later, just to be sure.
Also, please read what I wrote earlier, I already explained it there and like I said, I'm not entirely sure so thats why I will test it.

Nah I'm not taking any other buffs into account, it's independent from those.
The damage of your crits is increased by 18%, that you multiply by your chance to get the average dps increase.

Afaik It's calculated like this 1.5 + 1.5 * Shadow + 1.5 * CP + 1.5 * Force etc.
Some passives like the ones from NB and Templar only increase the bonus damage so in that case it's 0.5 * passive.

The fixed those passives a long time ago, they now give full 10% critdmg

Your formula is completely off, Critdmg is calculated by 1+(0.5 + Passive (0.1) + Trap (0.12) + CP)*WH (1.3)

To get the actual DPS-increase you have to calc the following: (1+newcrit*newcritdmg)/(1+crit*critdmg)
where newcritdmg and critdmg is only the extra critical damage so 0.5 as basevalue, 0.62 with trap and so on.

Yup ur right about the cooldown. I was a bit too eager there! Haha. Will update post.

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

Saturn wrote: »

It would be nice to see it on more longer fights over 2 minutes. It looks like it is comparable to Viper though, in terms of how much dps it contributes. The biggest downside to it is that the fire damage does not scale with stamina, weapon crit, weapon damage, which the Viper does. I do hear that a lot of people use Red Mountain and Viper together in PvP with crit rush.

I will say that after seeing this I'm definitely going to get a full set and test it out.

If you read all posts here ull see it stomps viper completely.

Dromede · August 2016

Mettaricana wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

My question is what drops the RED MOUNTAIN set at cp 160?

HRC normal drops purple gear and jewelry

HRC vet drops purple gear and golden jewelry

afaik

Can't we get anything in this game not tied to trials.... seriously every gear set is stuck to a trial with pitiful sets stuck in group dungeons...

So you're saying that challenging multiplayer endgame content shouldn't reward players with any unique and competitive sets?

Normal mode is straight up easy. Just push yourself once to experience it - i'm absolutely sure you'll love it and will come back for more.

Carbonised · August 2016

Change the set bonuses to magicka, spell damage and spell crit.

Problem solved.

peniku8 · August 2016

Carbonised wrote: »

Change the set bonuses to magicka, spell damage and spell crit.

Problem solved.

And buff/reduce force pulse cost so that you can proc the set even more often (Blockade+Weaving FS which is 3 hits).
Would be really nice. A comparable set is the Destruction mastery, but instead of adding any proc dmg it adds 2k magicka, which is quite underwhelming

Flak wrote: »

Nah I'm not taking any other buffs into account, it's independent from those.
The damage of your crits is increased by 18%, that you multiply by your chance to get the average dps increase.

Afaik It's calculated like this 1.5 + 1.5 * Shadow + 1.5 * CP + 1.5 * Force etc.
Some passives like the ones from NB and Templar only increase the bonus damage so in that case it's 0.5 * passive.

So I tested it now and it's like I said, Crit Dmg = Base Dmg * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow)
with the outcome that having the Shadow results in 10% more dps without Warhorn (with 12% more Crit Dmg from CP), I didn't test how Warhorn works yet.

Carbonised · August 2016

peniku8 wrote: »

And buff/reduce force pulse cost so that you can proc the set even more often (Blockade+Weaving FS which is 3 hits).
Would be really nice. A comparable set is the Destruction mastery, but instead of adding any proc dmg it adds 2k magicka, which is quite underwhelming

Really sick and tired of stam getting all the toys last 3 DLCs. Nothing for magicka DPS, this game is starting to smell rotten.

peniku8 · August 2016

Carbonised wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

And buff/reduce force pulse cost so that you can proc the set even more often (Blockade+Weaving FS which is 3 hits).
Would be really nice. A comparable set is the Destruction mastery, but instead of adding any proc dmg it adds 2k magicka, which is quite underwhelming

Really sick and tired of stam getting all the toys last 3 DLCs. Nothing for magicka DPS, this game is starting to smell rotten.

ikr, I've been playing MagDK for a year now and made a Magblade when Orsinium launched, but now made a Stamblade and a Stamsorc since it just easily outperforms magicka now... if I completely mess up my rotation I still do more dps than on my magicka chars.. thats just sad, but it's also fun, I finally got to appreciate stam now, being able to sprint through entire dungeons with vicious ophidian and not having to rely on anybody else for my sustain is great

Derra · August 2016

Destruent wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

My question is what drops the RED MOUNTAIN set at cp 160?

HRC normal drops purple gear and jewelry

HRC vet drops purple gear and golden jewelry

afaik

Can't we get anything in this game not tied to trials.... seriously every gear set is stuck to a trial with pitiful sets stuck in group dungeons...

Step 1: Walk to a guildstore

Step 2: Buy this set

Step 3: Stop complaining about usefull drops in endgamecontent.

Thank you

Can we get sets useful for pve folks from pvp again plz? As it stands the pvp relevant sets drop in endgame pve content while pvp offers nothing worth selling in return. That´s not how it should work.

Xsorus · August 2016

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

UPDATE 07.08.16, So far tests have concluded that Red Mountain > Viper by a huge margin. We are still investigating how RM performs compared to TBS. During dps tests and calculations they seem very similiar, but it seems RM in average is slightly stronger, especially in non-buffed situations. It is hard to measure RM and TBS cause its a proc vs static dmg increase. This also means that RM can proc in situations where TBS would never do as much dmg, say on a target with just poison injection on it, or when you are running for ur life while ur volley alone is still proccing tons of dmg on mobs. Sometimes if ur unlucky RM could have a low proc rate and might not proc at all. That said, no matter the outcome of new calculations, red mountain, tbs and VO are now the best stam sets. Without VO you can run tbs + red mountain which is absolutely lovely cus the shadow and thief boon increases dmg and crit rate of the flame proc.

Set picture:

During testing it seems to have somewhere close to 2 sec cooldown. This makes the set balanced. Looks like you cannot proc on multiple targets at the exact same time. It still procs more than any other set I've seen.

Procs on weapon ability dots, volley, poison dots, everything related to your weapon skills.

VIPER VS RED MOUNTAIN (UPDATED)

Red Mountain is clearly waaay better in situations where there are more than 1 mob cus it procs off steel tornado, acid spray, poison injection dots and volley. Also supreme with a good rotation where you have volley, poison dots and bleed up at all times. It's also a better set in situations where you gotta dodge attacks, self heal or block cus it procs on ur dots while u do so. When you need to use bow or ranged attacks it is ofc supreme to Viper that only procs close combat melee.

Viper beats Red Mountain only in some situations when you do not have all ur dots up and are smashing at someone up close single target, and just barely.

Screens: (Sry for different sized images I don't have photoshop installed on this computer)

HEL RA NORMAL:

GOLD KEY RUN:

Now the question is, does it beat Twice Born Star?

Looking at your logs

Single Target Viper > Red Mountain
AOE Red mountain > Viper

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

UPDATE 07.08.16, So far tests have concluded that Red Mountain > Viper by a huge margin. We are still investigating how RM performs compared to TBS. During dps tests and calculations they seem very similiar, but it seems RM in average is slightly stronger, especially in non-buffed situations. It is hard to measure RM and TBS cause its a proc vs static dmg increase. This also means that RM can proc in situations where TBS would never do as much dmg, say on a target with just poison injection on it, or when you are running for ur life while ur volley alone is still proccing tons of dmg on mobs. Sometimes if ur unlucky RM could have a low proc rate and might not proc at all. That said, no matter the outcome of new calculations, red mountain, tbs and VO are now the best stam sets. Without VO you can run tbs + red mountain which is absolutely lovely cus the shadow and thief boon increases dmg and crit rate of the flame proc.

Set picture:

During testing it seems to have somewhere close to 2 sec cooldown. This makes the set balanced. Looks like you cannot proc on multiple targets at the exact same time. It still procs more than any other set I've seen.

Procs on weapon ability dots, volley, poison dots, everything related to your weapon skills.

VIPER VS RED MOUNTAIN (UPDATED)

Red Mountain is clearly waaay better in situations where there are more than 1 mob cus it procs off steel tornado, acid spray, poison injection dots and volley. Also supreme with a good rotation where you have volley, poison dots and bleed up at all times. It's also a better set in situations where you gotta dodge attacks, self heal or block cus it procs on ur dots while u do so. When you need to use bow or ranged attacks it is ofc supreme to Viper that only procs close combat melee.

Viper beats Red Mountain only in some situations when you do not have all ur dots up and are smashing at someone up close single target, and just barely.

Screens: (Sry for different sized images I don't have photoshop installed on this computer)

HEL RA NORMAL:

GOLD KEY RUN:

Now the question is, does it beat Twice Born Star?

Looking at your logs

Single Target Viper > Red Mountain
AOE Red mountain > Viper

not rly, I explained why viper might be higher than RM several times already in this thread, but ill repeat. When u have a bad rotation and low amount of dots. Or when ur up close doing nothing but spamming melee. Look once I have to move away sometimes and dodge boss attacks on the warrior boss. What happens? RM is supreme, and that was on my bad trait bad rotation test setup.

Look at triklops screenshot. stable 3.7k dps from the proc itself. almost double of vipers max dmg output. viper is nowhere close.

Minute_Waltz · August 2016

So looking at those single parses, it procs about every 3-5 secs for 8k damage, which translate into 2k dps overall, However there will be dps reduction by x% for 95% of your other dps skills by not having shadow mundus.

Say that I do 40k single dps right now with VO TBS.
40K = x * 0.7(crit chance)*(1.5 crit dmg base + 0.12 minor force + 0.1 precise strike + 0.18 shadow with seven divine)
x = 30K, which is my base average dps.

By not having mundus, simply use above equation and work backwards to get final dps, But also note RM gives extra wep dmg and crit over TBS, which estimates to be 4% increase in wep dmg/crit stats, so we will just assume a 4% increase in overall dps (its likely to be less than that).
With RM I will be pulling: 36.2K *(1.04) + 2K from RM proc, which works out to be 39,600.

So basically higher the base dps, better TBS set is over RM. For the person who posted dps parse, I would say he will be doing less dps with TBS set under same test conditions.

Obviously the above calculations are simply estimates and may be different per race/class (ie khajiit has more crit chance to favor TBS, Nb has crit dmg passive etc), also it didnt take into account of group buff/debuffs.

tldr: In theory, TBS > RM if you are optimized in your gear/rotation/dps, RM is better if you are pulling less than optimal dps.

Also had a play around if RM can replace VO, but then remembered the minor slayer buff which pretty much killed the idea (VO will always be better than RM)

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

So looking at those single parses, it procs about every 3-5 secs for 8k damage, which translate into 2k dps overall, However there will be dps reduction by x% for 95% of your other dps skills by not having shadow mundus.

Say that I do 40k single dps right now with VO TBS.
40K = x * 0.7(crit chance)*(1.5 crit dmg base + 0.12 minor force + 0.1 precise strike + 0.18 shadow with seven divine)
x = 30K, which is my base average dps.

By not having mundus, simply use above equation and work backwards to get final dps, But also note RM gives extra wep dmg and crit over TBS, which estimates to be 4% increase in wep dmg/crit stats, so we will just assume a 4% increase in overall dps (its likely to be less than that).
With RM I will be pulling: 36.2K *(1.04) + 2K from RM proc, which works out to be 39,600.

So basically higher the base dps, better TBS set is over RM. For the person who posted dps parse, I would say he will be doing less dps with TBS set under same test conditions.

Obviously the above calculations are simply estimates and may be different per race/class (ie khajiit has more crit chance to favor TBS, Nb has crit dmg passive etc), also it didnt take into account of group buff/debuffs.

tldr: In theory, TBS > RM if you are optimized in your gear/rotation/dps, RM is better if you are pulling less than optimal dps.

Also had a play around if RM can replace VO, but then remembered the minor slayer buff which pretty much killed the idea (VO will always be better than RM)

I'm sorry but my screenshots is a test build with bad traits and rotations, thats why it procs less. Look at triklops screenshot for more accurate numbers and top dps with the RM set pulling 3.7k on the proc alone.

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

triklops79 wrote: »

This.

here ^^

Minute_Waltz · August 2016

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

I'm sorry but my screenshots is a test build with bad traits and rotations, thats why it procs less. Look at triklops screenshot for more accurate numbers and top dps with the RM set pulling 3.7k on the proc alone.

Yeah I guess by assuming 2K dps increase with RM proc is already comparable with TBS, if by having slightly different cp allocation and having a dunmer flame dmg buff, this set will definitely work.

Guess I'll have to test this in game before rerolling my dunmer stam DK to a cat

What does weapon attack mean exactly? Basically it procs on everything include dots with no CD?

Leon119 · August 2016

How exactly does the proc work ? Say im using steel tornado. Every single target hit by it will get the proc with a cd of 2 seconds ? Or just one of the affected targets. And how would it work with biting jabs ?

Minute_Waltz · August 2016

Leon119 wrote: »

How exactly does the proc work ? Say im using steel tornado. Every single target hit by it will get the proc with a cd of 2 seconds ? Or just one of the affected targets. And how would it work with biting jabs ?

Did a quick test on this, it procs on each hit of rapid strikes, so would assume the same for jabs.

It doesn't proc on dots, only the initial hit.

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Leon119 wrote: »

How exactly does the proc work ? Say im using steel tornado. Every single target hit by it will get the proc with a cd of 2 seconds ? Or just one of the affected targets. And how would it work with biting jabs ?

Did a quick test on this, it procs on each hit of rapid strikes, so would assume the same for jabs.

It doesn't proc on dots, only the initial hit.

wtf kind of test is this man. JABS isnt a wep ability.

and it DOES proc on dots.

are u on ps4 or somth?

if you read the thread ur posting in you would get all the answers.

oRioNoTime · August 2016

So VO+TBS still best in slot.

Viper was already meh in PvE, wasn't it?

When you say RM is better than viper "BY A LARGE MARGIN" do you mean like 20% increase overall dps or 2%? I see many screens with RM test but I don't see the comparison with VO. (i'm no pretending of course!).

Thanks for the testing.