Red Mountain new stam dps meta?

xblackroxe

juhasman wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

UPDATED 11.08.16

We have tested performance in both dynamic fights and single target , the CPs, the cooldown, the enchants, the average proc rate, the different weapon types +++. Both with and without maelstrom weapons, with Red Mountain + Vicious Ophidian, Red Mountain + Twice Born Star, Twice Born Star + VO. We have also calculated how RM will perform in comparison to TBS in trials with warhorn uptime

For now, the results are pretty clear. Red Mountain is better than Twice Born Star. 2% more single target dps, and way better in various combat situations, up to ~10% (rare, but can happen).

This is peniku dealing 50390 dps with Purple Red Mountain Sturdy trait.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEnxlqiC3t8

To see all calculations and discussions you can browse through this thread.

If you have any evidence conflicting with our results, please let us know and we will look into it and update the thread.

You are testing dps on a guard. TBS vs RM

You do realize that TBS gets strong in a raid environment with Aggressive Warhorn Major Force? >.>

TBS>RM in Raids by miles.

We already calculated RM vs TBS with major force several times in this thread. So unless those calculations are wrong, RM is still sronger than TBS by ~2% with warhorn up.

We are looking into it though cause there is a slight disagreement with how major force affects tbs.

Post will be updated regarding that when we have a conclusion.

You realise major force was calculated wrongly here and not with multiplicative?
Come on dude, let it go, theres no way this set will be stronger.

Quiet. He bought all pices that was in guild stores few days ago for 10-20k and now selling it for 100-200k Hype needs to be maded.

#exposed

LEGENDARYYY

When I get home I'll post screens of me buying legendary Rm necklace to use it on my char.

@ZOS_GinaBruno are these accusations allowed in forums? That has to be a violation of forum rules.

FENGRUSH

Legendary why are you rude

xblackroxe

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

When I get home I'll post screens of me buying legendary Rm necklace to use it on my char.

@ZOS_GinaBruno are these accusations allowed in forums? That has to be a violation of forum rules.

Thats nice show me a few manti parses with tbs and red mountain with a good rotation and ma weapons in the high 40's to compare. If RM is better then show it with actual parses not math that has not even been shown anywhere to verify if you calculated correctly.

LEGENDARYYY

xblackroxe wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

When I get home I'll post screens of me buying legendary Rm necklace to use it on my char.

@ZOS_GinaBruno are these accusations allowed in forums? That has to be a violation of forum rules.

Thats nice show me a few manti parses with tbs and red mountain with a good rotation and ma weapons in the high 40's to compare. If RM is better then show it with actual parses not math that has not even been shown anywhere to verify if you calculated correctly.

Yes I am hoping someone will do that. It's just in my current situation I do not have the time to play vet trials much, and especially not 5 times per set to get accurate results. + im in no vet trials guilds. That means hardcore trial runners gotta help me do those tests.

I have tanked for 5k hours or so in Eso and I am good at it but im new to dps. I dont have VO and I pull at most 30k single with RM. And since my dps is that low, I benefit a lot from RM. With tbs I struggled getn past 25k single.

So that is my personal experience. Rm is fantastic for me. Especially in vDSA.

hedna123b14_ESO

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

LEGENDARYYY

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

And yeah regarding health I agree with you. But if rm is stronger than tbs by such an amount that u can rearrange attributes it is an option.

hedna123b14_ESO

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

hedna123b14_ESO

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

And yeah regarding health I agree with you. But if rm is stronger than tbs by such an amount that u can rearrange attributes it is an option.

Furthermore I just looked at those screenshots your friend posted. Look at each skill between the two screenshots and go skill by skill and compare their max damage. In almost ALL cases the skill max was hitting for 8.8%+....in some case it was up to a 19% difference.

DeadDealer

@juhasman
@L2Pissue
@xblackroxe

go away trolls from usefull topic!
you all reported

LEGENDARYYY

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

The proc rate will be more stable the longer the fight. In maths thats basic probability calculation. We can calculate exactly what the proc can do average in a long fight based on penikus number of weapon hits actually. I'll do that tonight. Maybe it will be below 3.6k. We'll see.

Are u now trying to tell me theres absolutely no difference between sturdy purple and legendary divine????? Baffling

LEGENDARYYY

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

And yeah regarding health I agree with you. But if rm is stronger than tbs by such an amount that u can rearrange attributes it is an option.

Furthermore I just looked at those screenshots your friend posted. Look at each skill between the two screenshots and go skill by skill and compare their max damage. In almost ALL cases the skill max was hitting for 8.8%+....in some case it was up to a 19% difference.

I will look into that too. Good observation.

hedna123b14_ESO

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

The proc rate will be more stable the longer the fight. In maths thats basic probability calculation. We can calculate exactly what the proc can do average in a long fight based on penikus number of weapon hits actually. I'll do that tonight. Maybe it will be below 3.6k. We'll see.

Are u now trying to tell me theres absolutely no difference between sturdy purple and legendary divine?????

He averaged a hit every 3+ seconds in his parse. This was a stationary parse with all DoTs properly on the target, meaning the absolute best chance to proc RM. In any real fight we all know that there are periods of perfect rotation and periods of adjustment when the only things hitting the target are dots applied to the target. During those moments your RM proc chance will go to a really low percentage, whilst when using TBS your damage stays the same, which is why in endgame this set is not as good and doesnt synergize as well with the new meta.

As for Purple VS Gold, there is absolutely a difference but the difference is much bigger when you factor in the role of Warhorn. Warhorn benefits every aspect of your damage when using TBS. Warhorn does not benefit RM except for the initial 10 seconds. The increase to stats for 30 seconds does nothing for RM and thus its efficacy is diminished.

LEGENDARYYY

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

The proc rate will be more stable the longer the fight. In maths thats basic probability calculation. We can calculate exactly what the proc can do average in a long fight based on penikus number of weapon hits actually. I'll do that tonight. Maybe it will be below 3.6k. We'll see.

Are u now trying to tell me theres absolutely no difference between sturdy purple and legendary divine?????

He averaged a hit every 3+ seconds in his parse. This was a stationary parse with all DoTs properly on the target, meaning the absolute best chance to proc RM. In any real fight we all know that there are periods of perfect rotation and periods of adjustment when the only things hitting the target are dots applied to the target. During those moments your RM proc chance will go to a really low percentage, whilst when using TBS your damage stays the same, which is why in endgame this set is not as good and doesnt synergize as well with the new meta.

As for Purple VS Gold, there is absolutely a difference but the difference is much bigger when you factor in the role of Warhorn. Warhorn benefits every aspect of your damage when using TBS. Warhorn does not benefit RM except for the initial 10 seconds. The increase to stats for 30 seconds does nothing for RM and thus its efficacy is diminished.

Wut. If u only have dots on target then RM will surpass tbs by miles. You are then at say 10k dps from dots for 10 secs. IF rm procs just once ur looking at so much extra dmg that tbs would never catch up. Rememer the lower dps, the better RM is cause its a proc.

I'm pretty sure this is the case, but hey. I will calc that too then....

Polysemy

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

The proc rate will be more stable the longer the fight. In maths thats basic probability calculation. We can calculate exactly what the proc can do average in a long fight based on penikus number of weapon hits actually. I'll do that tonight. Maybe it will be below 3.6k. We'll see.

Are u now trying to tell me theres absolutely no difference between sturdy purple and legendary divine?????

He averaged a hit every 3+ seconds in his parse. This was a stationary parse with all DoTs properly on the target, meaning the absolute best chance to proc RM. In any real fight we all know that there are periods of perfect rotation and periods of adjustment when the only things hitting the target are dots applied to the target. During those moments your RM proc chance will go to a really low percentage, whilst when using TBS your damage stays the same, which is why in endgame this set is not as good and doesnt synergize as well with the new meta.

As for Purple VS Gold, there is absolutely a difference but the difference is much bigger when you factor in the role of Warhorn. Warhorn benefits every aspect of your damage when using TBS. Warhorn does not benefit RM except for the initial 10 seconds. The increase to stats for 30 seconds does nothing for RM and thus its efficacy is diminished.

Wut. If u only have dots on target then RM will surpass tbs by miles. You are then at say 10k dps from dots for 10 secs. IF rm procs just once ur looking at so much extra dmg that tbs would never catch up. Rememer the lower dps, the better RM is cause its a proc.

I'm pretty sure this is the case, but hey. I will calc that too then....

When your Sig is filled with non dps races people aint going to take you seriously

Argonian sorc DD?!

Glory

Red Mountain is probably a good set, but I find it misleading that you are suggesting that it is BiS over Twice-Born Star when the only parses that have been posted are often short duration and/or not in an end-game trials setting (fully buffed warhorn high dps etc). Sustaining high damage over an extended period of time with end-game buffs is truly the only way to post real parses of DPS.

The lack of this evidence combined with the fact that calculations have been incorrectly asserted as accurate as well as the disagreement of several well-known end game PvE members (Alcast, Nifty, etc.) suggest that you should do significantly more testing before you continue to make such strong assertions.

Making a statement that a set is BiS without providing proper proof and not acknowledging this lack of evidence is misleading at best, especially towards people who are not as well-versed in end-game gearing. The rumor/your acknowledgement that you have purchased said set and are attempting to sell it at extremely marked up rates suggests that you are trying to profit off the misinformation you are spreading.

kadar

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs.

Why does RM have a 3% DPS increase from it's first 4? Running TBS grants the Thief Mundus in addition to Shadow. Someone running RM over TBS would not have the Thief Mundus, right?

LEGENDARYYY

The_Outsider wrote: »

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs.

Why does RM have a 3% DPS increase from it's first 4? Running TBS grants the Thief Mundus in addition to Shadow. Someone running RM over TBS would not have the Thief Mundus, right?

I said first four set bonuses. Rm has wep dmg, stam and crit. Tbs has mag stam hp. The difference in dps from those is ~3%

LEGENDARYYY

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Red Mountain is probably a good set, but I find it misleading that you are suggesting that it is BiS over Twice-Born Star when the only parses that have been posted are often short duration and/or not in an end-game trials setting (fully buffed warhorn high dps etc). Sustaining high damage over an extended period of time with end-game buffs is truly the only way to post real parses of DPS.

The lack of this evidence combined with the fact that calculations have been incorrectly asserted as accurate as well as the disagreement of several well-known end game PvE members (Alcast, Nifty, etc.) suggest that you should do significantly more testing before you continue to make such strong assertions.

Making a statement that a set is BiS without providing proper proof and not acknowledging this lack of evidence is misleading at best, especially towards people who are not as well-versed in end-game gearing. The rumor/your acknowledgement that you have purchased said set and are attempting to sell it at extremely marked up rates suggests that you are trying to profit off the misinformation you are spreading.

Lack of proof? The thing is this.. I only have proof rm beats tbs so far. The sceptics have never given me proof of otherwise. All of you arent even calculating nor posting parses. So, the problem is on your end. And just cause ppl are "top players" in a casualist MMO doesnt mean they can just state stuff without backing it up.

If half of you touched ur numpad and helped out this discussion would be over 4 days ago.

Destruent

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Red Mountain is probably a good set, but I find it misleading that you are suggesting that it is BiS over Twice-Born Star when the only parses that have been posted are often short duration and/or not in an end-game trials setting (fully buffed warhorn high dps etc). Sustaining high damage over an extended period of time with end-game buffs is truly the only way to post real parses of DPS.

The lack of this evidence combined with the fact that calculations have been incorrectly asserted as accurate as well as the disagreement of several well-known end game PvE members (Alcast, Nifty, etc.) suggest that you should do significantly more testing before you continue to make such strong assertions.

Making a statement that a set is BiS without providing proper proof and not acknowledging this lack of evidence is misleading at best, especially towards people who are not as well-versed in end-game gearing. The rumor/your acknowledgement that you have purchased said set and are attempting to sell it at extremely marked up rates suggests that you are trying to profit off the misinformation you are spreading.

Lack of proof? The thing is this.. I only have proof rm beats tbs so far. The sceptics have never given me proof of otherwise. All of you arent even calculating nor posting parses. So, the problem is on your end. And just cause ppl are "top players" in a casualist MMO doesnt mean they can just state stuff without backing it up.

If half of you touched ur numpad and helped out this discussion would be over 4 days ago.

You have no parses from an endgame-trial boss. AS long as you can't show parses from vettrials, people will not believe it. Those short fights are not important at all. You can test things, sure. But you cannot say it's better in the long fight with good support bc it is better in a test environment and bad support.

kadar

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs.

Why does RM have a 3% DPS increase from it's first 4? Running TBS grants the Thief Mundus in addition to Shadow. Someone running RM over TBS would not have the Thief Mundus, right?

I said first four set bonuses. Rm has wep dmg, stam and crit. Tbs has mag stam hp. The difference in dps from those is ~3%

Well right, but you're not discussing the merits of running two 4 piece sets. You're talking 5 TBS vs. 5 RM. And with 5 TBS you have the extra.... ~16.5% Weapon Crit from the Thief Mundus.

Destruent

The_Outsider wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs.

Why does RM have a 3% DPS increase from it's first 4? Running TBS grants the Thief Mundus in addition to Shadow. Someone running RM over TBS would not have the Thief Mundus, right?

I said first four set bonuses. Rm has wep dmg, stam and crit. Tbs has mag stam hp. The difference in dps from those is ~3%

Well right, but you're not discussing the merits of running two 4 piece sets. You're talking 5 TBS vs. 5 RM. And with 5 TBS you have the extra.... ~16.5% Weapon Crit from the Thief Mundus.

You are running thief usually. You will run shadow as second mundus. TBS will therefore give you ~1k Stam + 18.3% critdmg.

LEGENDARYYY

Polysemy wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

The proc rate will be more stable the longer the fight. In maths thats basic probability calculation. We can calculate exactly what the proc can do average in a long fight based on penikus number of weapon hits actually. I'll do that tonight. Maybe it will be below 3.6k. We'll see.

Are u now trying to tell me theres absolutely no difference between sturdy purple and legendary divine?????

He averaged a hit every 3+ seconds in his parse. This was a stationary parse with all DoTs properly on the target, meaning the absolute best chance to proc RM. In any real fight we all know that there are periods of perfect rotation and periods of adjustment when the only things hitting the target are dots applied to the target. During those moments your RM proc chance will go to a really low percentage, whilst when using TBS your damage stays the same, which is why in endgame this set is not as good and doesnt synergize as well with the new meta.

As for Purple VS Gold, there is absolutely a difference but the difference is much bigger when you factor in the role of Warhorn. Warhorn benefits every aspect of your damage when using TBS. Warhorn does not benefit RM except for the initial 10 seconds. The increase to stats for 30 seconds does nothing for RM and thus its efficacy is diminished.

Wut. If u only have dots on target then RM will surpass tbs by miles. You are then at say 10k dps from dots for 10 secs. IF rm procs just once ur looking at so much extra dmg that tbs would never catch up. Rememer the lower dps, the better RM is cause its a proc.

I'm pretty sure this is the case, but hey. I will calc that too then....

When your Sig is filled with non dps races people aint going to take you seriously

Argonian sorc DD?!

Fixed now, hadn't updated char info for ages

hedna123b14_ESO

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Red Mountain is probably a good set, but I find it misleading that you are suggesting that it is BiS over Twice-Born Star when the only parses that have been posted are often short duration and/or not in an end-game trials setting (fully buffed warhorn high dps etc). Sustaining high damage over an extended period of time with end-game buffs is truly the only way to post real parses of DPS.

The lack of this evidence combined with the fact that calculations have been incorrectly asserted as accurate as well as the disagreement of several well-known end game PvE members (Alcast, Nifty, etc.) suggest that you should do significantly more testing before you continue to make such strong assertions.

Making a statement that a set is BiS without providing proper proof and not acknowledging this lack of evidence is misleading at best, especially towards people who are not as well-versed in end-game gearing. The rumor/your acknowledgement that you have purchased said set and are attempting to sell it at extremely marked up rates suggests that you are trying to profit off the misinformation you are spreading.

Lack of proof? The thing is this.. I only have proof rm beats tbs so far. The sceptics have never given me proof of otherwise. All of you arent even calculating nor posting parses. So, the problem is on your end. And just cause ppl are "top players" in a casualist MMO doesnt mean they can just state stuff without backing it up.

If half of you touched ur numpad and helped out this discussion would be over 4 days ago.

I can give you a parse where Shooting Star does 50% of my damage...Shooting Star>RM lol

LEGENDARYYY

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

When I get home I'll post screens of me buying legendary Rm necklace to use it on my char.

@ZOS_GinaBruno are these accusations allowed in forums? That has to be a violation of forum rules.

It's stam recovery cus I bought it yesterday night (for a cheap 145k) and didnt grab a new glyph yet

kadar

Destruent wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs.

Why does RM have a 3% DPS increase from it's first 4? Running TBS grants the Thief Mundus in addition to Shadow. Someone running RM over TBS would not have the Thief Mundus, right?

I said first four set bonuses. Rm has wep dmg, stam and crit. Tbs has mag stam hp. The difference in dps from those is ~3%

Well right, but you're not discussing the merits of running two 4 piece sets. You're talking 5 TBS vs. 5 RM. And with 5 TBS you have the extra.... ~16.5% Weapon Crit from the Thief Mundus.

You are running thief usually. You will run shadow as second mundus. TBS will therefore give you ~1k Stam + 18.3% critdmg.

That's what I said!

I mean, It's not relevant to say that the 4 pc of RM gives 3% more damage than TBS because we're comparing entire sets here. The TBS and RM set wearers will both use Shadow stone. Both sets give max Stam. If legendary divines grants "18.3%" from also having Thief, then TBS gains about 13.3% crit ( "18.3 - ~5% from RM 4 bonus) over RM from a stat total perspective.

Red Mountain has 126 Wpn dmg + Fire Dmg Proc |vs| TBS with ~13.3% wpn crit + Health/Magicka bonus.

I'm not sure the maths done earlier where you added 3% dmg done to the comparisons make sense.

EDIT: looks like full gold divines will give you 16.7% crit from Thief, but I'm not in game so can't check for sure.

LEGENDARYYY

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

Here is my calculations for a long fight.

Calcs for RM expected proc rate and dmg in long fights using penikus rotations and weapon hits from his video.

~5 weapon attacks per second = 5000 weapon attacks within 1000 seconds.

A stable 10% chance to proc out of 5000 weapon attacks is 500 procs, but adding the 2 sec cooldown halves this. so 250 procs within 1000 seconds.

Peniku did an average of 11500 dmg with his proc with a 78.6% crit rate, which was almost about his base crit rate and the average proc dmg is pretty accurate because of that.

11500 dmg x 250/1000 = 2.875k dps from RM proc in a 1000 second fight.

Add 5% from VO in dungeons. 2875*1.05=3018

Conclusion: With penikus rotations and purple sturdy RM set he should deal about 3k dps from the proc itself in a dungeon with 50k dps single target.

3k dps out of 50k total dps is 6%

RM set bonuses is also 3%

Peniku will get 9% dmg from Red Mountain with that setup.

Improving all pieces to divines etc which is somewhere in the range of extra 2-3% dmg?

Conclusion:
In a 1000 seconds fight where Peniku use those rotations and do 50k single target dps in a dungeon he is looking at 11.5% dmg from his Red Mountain set, with an average proc dps of ~3.1k dps.

Hold on for calculations of RMs performance if ur doing low dps from dots (say when you are avoiding boss attacks etc).

Destruent

The_Outsider wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs.

Why does RM have a 3% DPS increase from it's first 4? Running TBS grants the Thief Mundus in addition to Shadow. Someone running RM over TBS would not have the Thief Mundus, right?

I said first four set bonuses. Rm has wep dmg, stam and crit. Tbs has mag stam hp. The difference in dps from those is ~3%

Well right, but you're not discussing the merits of running two 4 piece sets. You're talking 5 TBS vs. 5 RM. And with 5 TBS you have the extra.... ~16.5% Weapon Crit from the Thief Mundus.

You are running thief usually. You will run shadow as second mundus. TBS will therefore give you ~1k Stam + 18.3% critdmg.

That's what I said!

I mean, It's not relevant to say that the 4 pc of RM gives 3% more damage than TBS because we're comparing entire sets here. The TBS and RM set wearers will both use Shadow stone. Both sets give max Stam. If legendary divines grants "18.3%" from also having Thief, then TBS gains about 13.3% crit ( "18.3 - ~5% from RM 4 bonus) over RM from a stat total perspective.

Red Mountain has 126 Wpn dmg + Fire Dmg Proc |vs| TBS with ~13.3% wpn crit + Health/Magicka bonus.

I'm not sure the maths done earlier where you added 3% dmg done to the comparisons make sense.

EDIT: looks like full gold divines will give you 16.7% crit from Thief, but I'm not in game so can't check for sure.

No....with red mountain you will use the thief, not the shadow.

hedna123b14_ESO

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

Here is my calculations for a long fight.

Calcs for RM expected proc rate and dmg in long fights using penikus rotations and weapon hits from his video.

~5 weapon attacks per second = 5000 weapon attacks within 1000 seconds.

A stable 10% chance to proc out of 5000 weapon attacks is 500 procs, but adding the 2 sec cooldown halves this. so 250 procs within 1000 seconds.

Peniku did an average of 11500 dmg with his proc with a 78.6% crit rate, which was almost about his base crit rate and the average proc dmg is pretty accurate because of that.

11500 dmg x 250/1000 = 2.875k dps from RM proc in a 1000 second fight.

Add 5% from VO in dungeons. 2875*1.05=3018

Conclusion: With penikus rotations and purple sturdy RM set he should deal about 3k dps from the proc itself in a dungeon with 50k dps single target.

3k dps out of 50k total dps is 6%

RM set bonuses is also 3%

Peniku will get 9% dmg from Red Mountain with that setup.

Improving all pieces to divines etc which is somewhere in the range of extra 2-3% dmg?

Conclusion:
In a 1000 seconds fight where Peniku use those rotations and do 50k single target dps in a dungeon he is looking at 11.5% dmg from his Red Mountain set, with an average proc dps of ~3.1k dps.

Hold on for calculations of RMs performance if ur doing low dps from dots (say when you are avoiding boss attacks etc).

Now let's look at some ofrom your numbers.
1. 5 attacks per second. So in my rotation I have:
Hail - 20 ticks in 10 seconds
Poison Injection - 6 ticks in 10 seconds
Rapid Strikes- 5 ticks per each and 3 Rapids every 10 seconds or a total of 15 ticks
Rending Slashes - 6 ticks every 10 seconds.
Weaves- 4
Total ticks per 10 seconds = 51 or 5.1 ticks per second (in a perfect world).
2. 5100 attacks per 1000 seconds or 510 procs or as you pointed out with the cooldown it is 255 procs. This translates into 255 x 11500/1000 = 2932.
3. With VO, this becomes 3080. I won't use 50k I'll use 40k since this number is a bit easier to achieve in endgame. 3080/40k = 7.7% dps.
4. If we take a look at the two screenshots that your friend posted majority of the skills were crit ting for 8.8% more with TBS (no warhorn), with a few skills hitting for 13-19% more. So at the very least TBS is already giving a bigger damage boost than RM.
5. You can say that RM has a weapon damage bonus but that buff is already included in the parses your friend posted. The only thing not directly visible is the contribution of 3% crit chance that RM offers, which does is not going to increase the set'something efficacy to the point of matching TBS (without warhorn).
6. If we add warhorn into the mix, the state gain will add a significant dps boost to damage on TBS, but will contribute absolutely nothing to RM damage, since it's a base value.
7. Now let's also keep in mind that the 5.1 attacks per second is in a perfect world where all dots are hitting the target 100% of the time. But what if we only had poison injection, claw and rending slashes? Thats only 12 ticks per 10 seconds (Claw isnt a weapon skill) or 1.2 ticks per second, or ~1450 damage from RM. 1450/40000 = 3.6%, however the gain from TBS to damage was 8.8%+. So while the RM proc chance drops, the damage from. PI, Claw and Rending stays high.
8. Even if somehow RM did equal or did slightly higher damage than TBS (2 % as you claim), as I said before the gain of 1.5k health would benefit you much more. Keep in mind 2% of 40k is only 800 dps. However TBS is superior in damage and utility as those screenshots your friend linked show.

EDIT: accounted for weaves:)

blur

@LEGENDARYYY

Informed players who actually raid end game content have shown up in this thread and provided information you have ignored and swept under the rug.

You don't have any evidence or test results of your own. You are merely providing anecdote off someone else's video who he himself provided very little evidence. No stats shown, no war horn, no twice born, no vet trial bosses, no group buffs.

You are not even playing the game.
You are not running any dps tests with both gear setups, buffs, etc comparing a line by line parse.
You are doing napkin math predicated on hypothesis.
This is not testing.

You have demonstrated yourself incapable of intelligent discussion regarding this topic and seem to be only in this conversation now for the sake of your pride.
You have nothing at all to offer this argument and should just be silent and let it go.