Red Mountain new stam dps meta?

LEGENDARYYY

Flak wrote: »

@LEGENDARYYY : I think you got me wrong there, I'm not talking about your overall DPS, solely about the DPS by RM.

And I totally agree on the burst capabilities, just trying to find ways to make it more effective.

oh, ye, I see

I'm wondering myself if there is some way to arrange cp to get the perfect outcome for builds with this set aswell. But since we're talking maybe a few % dmg difference with a proc that has 10% chance it seem to me pretty hard to calculate and test.

The 10% chance looks to make the set somewhat balanced. Tbh I'm actually impressed by ZOS creation here, they made a very exciting proc set.

Flak

Hmm did a little calculation on the procrate...
I count 414 hits with weaponattacks in 88 seconds on the parse, meaning 4.7 attacks per second.
So it's no wonder it only proced every 4 seconds on a 10% chance.
You could enhance this a bit by using an axe for bleed and light attacks instead of heavy attacks for faster weaving.
Blockcanceling the rapid strikes is also nice. But the biggest difference will be volley since it's AoE and ticks every 0.5 seconds, so bosses with Adds will have this proc all the time.

peniku8

Flak wrote: »

@LEGENDARYYY : I think you got me wrong there, I'm not talking about your overall DPS, solely about the DPS by RM.

And I totally agree on the burst capabilities, just trying to find ways to make it more effective.

To be fair, the screenshots posted by @LEGENDARYYY are on Stamblade using Surprise Attack and @Asmael got a StamDK, which uses many class skills along the weapon skills (thanks for the screens btw!).
Only @triklops79 posted Stamsorc screens, which would be the perfect class for RedMountain since your only active class dps skill is Hurricane there, and he got by far the best results.

If you have a look at my video, testing Stamsorc on the same guard (Abah's Watch, great for testing since he stands still, doesn't stun you and you can easily outheal his attacks over a longer period).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP1eQrowQxg

You can see that my dps is around 45k when the guard hits 0%, Minor Aegis doesn't work on guard, otherwise the situation would've been pretty much the same as fighting a trial boss in a buffed group, so this guard is a really good dps dummy IMO, even if the dps rises after 0% (ofc), it's still great for comparing sets because that won't matter as long as you're fighting the same target.
Triklops got 3,7k dps out of RM+TBS, thats why I'm quite sure that the set will output at least 3,5k in boss fights.
Also, keep in mind that it will proc even if you only have a few dots on the boss, which means that it should become more effective on dynamic fights (say the warrior fight, when he runs away and jumps etc).
In addition to that cool bonus, the set still offers the 3% crit+130WD which is roughly 3% dps increase.
Thats why I'm positive here, that RM could dominate many fights.

oh and fyi:
RM scales with armor penetration+weapon crit
and to the other guy asking: it can't proc with merciless resolve, thats a class skill
and I doubt that it has an animation

LEGENDARYYY

peniku8 wrote: »

Flak wrote: »

@LEGENDARYYY : I think you got me wrong there, I'm not talking about your overall DPS, solely about the DPS by RM.

And I totally agree on the burst capabilities, just trying to find ways to make it more effective.

To be fair, the screenshots posted by @LEGENDARYYY are on Stamblade using Surprise Attack and @Asmael got a StamDK, which uses many class skills along the weapon skills (thanks for the screens btw!).
Only @triklops79 posted Stamsorc screens, which would be the perfect class for RedMountain since your only active class dps skill is Hurricane there, and he got by far the best results.

If you have a look at my video, testing Stamsorc on the same guard (Abah's Watch, great for testing since he stands still, doesn't stun you and you can easily outheal his attacks over a longer period).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP1eQrowQxg

You can see that my dps is around 45k when the guard hits 0%, Minor Aegis doesn't work on guard, otherwise the situation would've been pretty much the same as fighting a trial boss in a buffed group, so this guard is a really good dps dummy IMO, even if the dps rises after 0% (ofc), it's still great for comparing sets because that won't matter as long as you're fighting the same target.
Triklops got 3,7k dps out of RM+TBS, thats why I'm quite sure that the set will output at least 3,5k in boss fights.
Also, keep in mind that it will proc even if you only have a few dots on the boss, which means that it should become more effective on dynamic fights (say the warrior fight, when he runs away and jumps etc).
In addition to that cool bonus, the set still offers the 3% crit+130WD which is roughly 3% dps increase.
Thats why I'm positive here, that RM could dominate many fights.

oh and fyi:
RM scales with armor penetration+weapon crit(=precise strikes)
and to the other guy asking: it can't proc with merciless resolve, thats a class skill
and I doubt that it has an animation

I did some testing and the proc does not scale off precise strikes nor mighty in the cp tree, but it does scale off weapon crit (we already knew). It also scales off elfborn and elemental expert. Also tested traumaturge for the lolz but no effect

Weapon dmg+ spell dmg on enchant on weapons doesnt seem to increase the proc dmg either. (but my srendarr is *** up so I'm not certain)

do u know some place with armored targets that I can easily test penetration on?

noticed something else, when swapping from dw to bow the dmg on proc is decreased by 1k cus it seeminly scales off the base spell dmg or something? (EDIT: this was because I had a sword in my dw setup that increases the proc dmg + I had no assasination abilities on my bow bar, resulting in 10% less crit dmg, whoops)

more in deep testing tomorrow.

peniku8

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

I did some testing and the proc does not scale off precise strikes nor mighty in the cp tree, but it does scale off weapon crit (we already knew). It also scales off elfborn and elemental expert. Also tested traumaturge for the lolz but no effect

Weapon dmg+ spell dmg on enchant on weapons doesnt seem to increase the proc dmg either. (but my srendarr is *** up so I'm not certain)

do u know some place with armored targets that I can easily test penetration on?

noticed something else, when swapping from dw to bow the dmg on proc is decreased by 1k cus it seeminly scales off the base spell dmg or something?

Ya right, Precise Strikes increase the weapon crit damage, not the Critrate, got that mixed up there.
You can try Craglorn, the Crystals (magic anomalies) might have resistance. Also Snekorist should be a good target. And guards in wrothgar have a decent resistance.
RM scales off weaponcrit, which means that should scale with Weapon Damage (if it does, certainly not spelldamage) and maximum stamina. You can easily test that by using it with and without food.
Maaaan I want to test the set too gonna get the pieces I need when I find them for a decent price. I'm so greedy with my money, I don't even know why, even 1m per piece wouldn't be a big deal xD
But I still fear that it might not be BIS. And spending alot of money of gear you'll never use again hurts mehhh

LEGENDARYYY

peniku8 wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

I did some testing and the proc does not scale off precise strikes nor mighty in the cp tree, but it does scale off weapon crit (we already knew). It also scales off elfborn and elemental expert. Also tested traumaturge for the lolz but no effect

Weapon dmg+ spell dmg on enchant on weapons doesnt seem to increase the proc dmg either. (but my srendarr is *** up so I'm not certain)

do u know some place with armored targets that I can easily test penetration on?

noticed something else, when swapping from dw to bow the dmg on proc is decreased by 1k cus it seeminly scales off the base spell dmg or something?

Ya right, Precise Strikes increase the weapon crit damage, not the Critrate, got that mixed up there.
You can try Craglorn, the Crystals (magic anomalies) might have resistance. Also Snekorist should be a good target. And guards in wrothgar have a decent resistance.
RM scales off weaponcrit, which means that should scale with Weapon Damage (if it does, certainly not spelldamage) and maximum stamina. You can easily test that by using it with and without food.
Maaaan I want to test the set too gonna get the pieces I need when I find them for a decent price. I'm so greedy with my money, I don't even know why, even 1m per piece wouldn't be a big deal xD
But I still fear that it might not be BIS. And spending alot of money of gear you'll never use again hurts mehhh

when I removed/slotted dawnbreaker it had no effect on the proc. ill test food tomorrow.

Flak

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

I did some testing and the proc does not scale off precise strikes nor mighty in the cp tree, but it does scale off weapon crit (we already knew). It also scales off elfborn and elemental expert. Also tested traumaturge for the lolz but no effect

Weapon dmg+ spell dmg on enchant on weapons doesnt seem to increase the proc dmg either. (but my srendarr is *** up so I'm not certain)

do u know some place with armored targets that I can easily test penetration on?

noticed something else, when swapping from dw to bow the dmg on proc is decreased by 1k cus it seeminly scales off the base spell dmg or something?

Ya right, Precise Strikes increase the weapon crit damage, not the Critrate, got that mixed up there.
You can try Craglorn, the Crystals (magic anomalies) might have resistance. Also Snekorist should be a good target. And guards in wrothgar have a decent resistance.
RM scales off weaponcrit, which means that should scale with Weapon Damage (if it does, certainly not spelldamage) and maximum stamina. You can easily test that by using it with and without food.
Maaaan I want to test the set too gonna get the pieces I need when I find them for a decent price. I'm so greedy with my money, I don't even know why, even 1m per piece wouldn't be a big deal xD
But I still fear that it might not be BIS. And spending alot of money of gear you'll never use again hurts mehhh

when I removed/slotted dawnbreaker it had no effect on the proc. ill test food tomorrow.

Thanks for your testing, we should all send in a ticket, it shouldn't scale with Elfborn or Spellpenetration since it's a stamina set. Viper was bugged the same way and they fixed it so there's still hope.
Set procs never scale with Weapon Damage, the base damage is static, however it can be increased by CP, Crit Modifier, Penetration and passives.

LEGENDARYYY

OK this is very interesting.

RM proc does not scale off weapon/spell dmg weapon enchants nor any physical CP passives, weapon dmg or stamina. Neither does it scale off spell dmg OR magicka.

The only thing that increases RM proc is spell based CP, and, wait for it... swords.

I got +400 dmg on my 3x purple 2x legendary RM proc tooltip while having two swords equipped.

To sum this up the best choice seem to be sharpened swords (increase proc dmg) or sharpened daggers (increase proc crit rate) with crushing enchants (increased penetration) for max proc output.

That said, what is the best setup for overall better dps?

I'll leave that kind of testing up to u @peniku8

to be frank, I don't think ZOS will patch the set and make this passive scale of weapon dmg or anything because that would make it totally OP.

DeadDealer

so.... this set not for archers?

BruhItsOver9000

You could run red mountain with viper, but you'd lose alot of weapon damage.

DeadDealer

do you guys think Marksman+Archer Mind will be BiS for pvp?
for archers

BruhItsOver9000

DeadDealer wrote: »

do you guys think Marksman+Archer Mind will be BiS for pvp?
for archers

Not in pvp, but for pve yea. I might try to do vma with that setup.

LEGENDARYYY

DeadDealer wrote: »

so.... this set not for archers?

UPDATED!

To me, the proc seems very strong on the bow (considering its bow), its just slightly weaker than swords, and the same as other dual wield weapons.

Allthough archers in general do deal less dmg no matter what set u use cus bow is weak. Best thing is for bow users to just apply dots.

On 2x legendary 3x purple red mountain gear and 5x legendary TBS (shadow+thief) I tested the crit procs now on normal mobs in Gold Coast: 10575 on bow, 10.875 with 1 sword, 11103 with 2 swords. 10575 wtih 2 maces and and 10575 on 2 daggers.

EDIT: With shadow boon, hemorrage passive on NB both bars. UPDATED!

LEGENDARYYY

Archers mind with RM would give the proc 5% more dmg on crit (in my case 3x purple 2x legendary RM thats 11103 dmg instead of 10575 dmg) and 5% on all other abilities.

if that is a better choice in PvP than marksmans 8% dmg on bow abilities against players and reduce stam cost im not sure.

Neither am I sure if red mountain is better than any of those two for players that ONLY use bow in pvp.

Usually id say proc is good in PvP cus it is sudden dmg, it is hard for enemies to calculate the income. Say u play against a DK who is saving his Dragon Blood for when he is low hp to get the best heal gain, and then u proc RM on him for a sudden death

In PVE red mountain is much better than both sets.

peniku8

Flak wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

I did some testing and the proc does not scale off precise strikes nor mighty in the cp tree, but it does scale off weapon crit (we already knew). It also scales off elfborn and elemental expert. Also tested traumaturge for the lolz but no effect

Weapon dmg+ spell dmg on enchant on weapons doesnt seem to increase the proc dmg either. (but my srendarr is *** up so I'm not certain)

do u know some place with armored targets that I can easily test penetration on?

noticed something else, when swapping from dw to bow the dmg on proc is decreased by 1k cus it seeminly scales off the base spell dmg or something?

Ya right, Precise Strikes increase the weapon crit damage, not the Critrate, got that mixed up there.
You can try Craglorn, the Crystals (magic anomalies) might have resistance. Also Snekorist should be a good target. And guards in wrothgar have a decent resistance.
RM scales off weaponcrit, which means that should scale with Weapon Damage (if it does, certainly not spelldamage) and maximum stamina. You can easily test that by using it with and without food.
Maaaan I want to test the set too gonna get the pieces I need when I find them for a decent price. I'm so greedy with my money, I don't even know why, even 1m per piece wouldn't be a big deal xD
But I still fear that it might not be BIS. And spending alot of money of gear you'll never use again hurts mehhh

when I removed/slotted dawnbreaker it had no effect on the proc. ill test food tomorrow.

Thanks for your testing, we should all send in a ticket, it shouldn't scale with Elfborn or Spellpenetration since it's a stamina set. Viper was bugged the same way and they fixed it so there's still hope.
Set procs never scale with Weapon Damage, the base damage is static, however it can be increased by CP, Crit Modifier, Penetration and passives.

They should replace the fire dmg with poison, or at least properly implement the proc

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

That said, what is the best setup for overall better dps?

I'll leave that kind of testing up to u @peniku8

I'm running sharpened Axe+precise Dagger right now, but I'd love to replace the precise Dagger with a sharpened one, these 3,5% crit will have less use wearing RM over TBS so I'd go full sharpened with Axe+Dagger. Not dual Axes since it doesn't nessecarily mean twice the bleed dps output, thx to RNGsus.

Vythri

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

dagonbeer wrote: »

Seems like a decent set in pvp (not as good as viper though, since you won't have 3-4 DoTs running on your opponent at all times) and a viable one in pve.

Can anyone test if merciless charge procs RM? I doubt it, but it is initiated by a weapon attack, even if it's not the source of the DoT.

Dont forget about when u use bow and its dots though many use bow offhand, me included.

I wonder how it would perform on a bow mainhand...

edit: nm, i guess you covered that.

Flak

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

OK this is very interesting.

RM proc does not scale off weapon/spell dmg weapon enchants nor any physical CP passives, weapon dmg or stamina. Neither does it scale off spell dmg OR magicka.

The only thing that increases RM proc is spell based CP, and, wait for it... swords.

Setprocs like RM, Viper, Skoria or Alkosh never scale with Weapon/Spelldamage or Stamina/Magicka. The basedamage only scales on the itemlevel and quality.
However it does get increased by Crit, Critmultiplier, general damage increase (Combat Prayer, Minor Slayer, Swords) and CP passives.

It would be nice if the proc would be Poison, Disease or Physical Damage, but to be honest that would probably make it a bit too op
However it should scale from Precise Strikes and Armorpenetration, so please fix this ZOS!

LEGENDARYYY

*REMOVED*

Flawed testing occured.

Destruent

This 19.6k probably only happened bc you stood in the blue area (+30% dmg)

LEGENDARYYY

Destruent wrote: »

This 19.6k probably only happened bc you stood in the blue area (+30% dmg)

damnit ye ur right..... totally forgot.

So thats 13757 crit then.

Well, thats still good compared to what I used to get.

Vythri

Does the Poison status effect that Lethal Arrow applies proc it?

Also I wonder how well it would work with Acid Spray against zergs. Put down Arrow Barrage on a breach, and spam Acid Spray. There are a lot of Vampires floating around recently I've noticed, so that might work well.

Asmael

I'll feed you data until you all trespass.

Realistically, you won't invest more than a single point in Elemental damage, because using above parse...

6.6% from standard
6.1% from RM
12.7 * 1.01 = 0.1% total damage increase.

So if mighty gives you 0.2% extra damage, it's still worth more than investing a point in it (since it affects over 80% of your total damage).

peniku8

I spent a few hours today doing lots of testing and lots of calculations.
I wanna spare you the calculations and just show you my test results below, which are very accurate, according to the following calculations... ok, no calculations is what I said, here are the pics:

Gold Divines TBS:

Purple Sturdy (!) Red Mountain:

Average of 5 fights:
TBS=50k
RM=49,5k

I took the average dps from the 5 cleanest figths I had, with each of the sets.
Based on several factors, RM is lacking 2,5% dps output (mostly because it's purple and sturdy and has Rekuta enchantments).
Regarding these 2,5%, Red Mountain outputs 2% more dps than TBS in this case (you output 50k dps single target).
Going through some quick calculations, TBS surpasses RM when you deal more than 60k dps single target, but I highly doubt that anybody can sustain such numbers

Refuse2GrowUp

peniku8 wrote: »

I spent a few hours today doing lots of testing and lots of calculations.
I wanna spare you the calculations and just show you my test results below, which are very accurate, according to the following calculations... ok, no calculations is what I said, here are the pics:

Gold Divines TBS:

Purple Sturdy (!) Red Mountain:

Average of 5 fights:
TBS=50k
RM=49,5k

I took the average dps from the 5 cleanest figths I had, with each of the sets.
Based on several factors, RM is lacking 2,5% dps output (mostly because it's purple and sturdy and has Rekuta enchantments).
Regarding these 2,5%, Red Mountain outputs 2% more dps than TBS in this case (you output 50k dps single target).
Going through some quick calculations, TBS surpasses RM when you deal more than 60k dps single target, but I highly doubt that anybody can sustain such numbers

Can you provide details about your class, set-up, CP distribution, and rotation in your tests?

I currently have a Dark Elf Stam DK and think the theory craft would be 5 tbs, 5 RM, with a maelstrom axe/dagger front bar and bow back bar. Tho I would be interested how such a set-up compares against 5 TBS with 5 Morag Tong now that it drops jewelry and all traits.

Edit: How would the same tests compare to a khajit or Redguard?

Alcast

peniku8 wrote: »

I spent a few hours today doing lots of testing and lots of calculations.
I wanna spare you the calculations and just show you my test results below, which are very accurate, according to the following calculations... ok, no calculations is what I said, here are the pics:

Gold Divines TBS:

Purple Sturdy (!) Red Mountain:

Average of 5 fights:
TBS=50k
RM=49,5k

I took the average dps from the 5 cleanest figths I had, with each of the sets.
Based on several factors, RM is lacking 2,5% dps output (mostly because it's purple and sturdy and has Rekuta enchantments).
Regarding these 2,5%, Red Mountain outputs 2% more dps than TBS in this case (you output 50k dps single target).
Going through some quick calculations, TBS surpasses RM when you deal more than 60k dps single target, but I highly doubt that anybody can sustain such numbers

Have you tried this setup?
5x Vicious Serpent
3x Agility
2x Velidreth
2x Maelstrom (1x Axe Sharp, 1x Dagger Precise)

LEGENDARYYY

Alcast wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

I spent a few hours today doing lots of testing and lots of calculations.
I wanna spare you the calculations and just show you my test results below, which are very accurate, according to the following calculations... ok, no calculations is what I said, here are the pics:

Gold Divines TBS:

Purple Sturdy (!) Red Mountain:

Average of 5 fights:
TBS=50k
RM=49,5k

I took the average dps from the 5 cleanest figths I had, with each of the sets.
Based on several factors, RM is lacking 2,5% dps output (mostly because it's purple and sturdy and has Rekuta enchantments).
Regarding these 2,5%, Red Mountain outputs 2% more dps than TBS in this case (you output 50k dps single target).
Going through some quick calculations, TBS surpasses RM when you deal more than 60k dps single target, but I highly doubt that anybody can sustain such numbers

Have you tried this setup?
5x Vicious Serpent
3x Agility
2x Velidreth
2x Maelstrom (1x Axe Sharp, 1x Dagger Precise)

even with a lot of passives up wouldn't velidreth proc for just 1.5k dps maximum in long fights, and even worse in unbuffed situations? could u post a few screens maybe?

velidreth + agility gives 322 wep dmg, 1400 stam with a max proc of ~1.5k dps

rm gives 129 wep dmg, 967 stam, 3% crit and a max proc of ~3.7k dps

ur setup is then +193 wep dmg, +433 stam, -3% crit and -2.2k dps proc ( @peniku8 put this into ur calcs pls?:D)

We also have to consider that the less amount of procs u get from velidreth cus its 10 sec cooldown the more random the crit of the proc is. Since RM procs all the time, 5 times more, in a long fight ur looking at pretty stable dps numbers and crit rate. But if Velidreth procs only once per 10, RNG from crit or not is higher.

Flak

I only played with Velidreth on PTS a couple weeks ago but it gave me around 2.7k single target on StamDK.
Would be nice to combine it with RM.

LEGENDARYYY

Flak wrote: »

I only played with Velidreth on PTS a couple weeks ago but it gave me around 2.7k single target on StamDK.
Would be nice to combine it with RM.

2.7k ?

but but, the base is 10300/10 = 1k dps, with 100% crit thats 1.5k dps. How can u boost it to 2.7k from passives? And it also has worse RNG than RM cus less procs. To me thats 1.5k dps ish even with passives? (< rough estimates from me, @peniku8 should calculate it more accurately)

I'm talking about the proc only here.

DeadDealer

you must watch there was a topic about 3 sorcs with Velidreth killed Skoria on vet in 30 seconds

with video

peniku8

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Can you provide details about your class, set-up, CP distribution, and rotation in your tests?

I currently have a Dark Elf Stam DK and think the theory craft would be 5 tbs, 5 RM, with a maelstrom axe/dagger front bar and bow back bar. Tho I would be interested how such a set-up compares against 5 TBS with 5 Morag Tong now that it drops jewelry and all traits.

Edit: How would the same tests compare to a khajit or Redguard?

I'm running Khajit StamSorc


Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEnxlqiC3t8

CP:

Althou I changed my CP to 10 points into Precise Strikes and all leftovers into Thaumaturge after some more calculations
(after these tests). Oh and that was pre-patch, so add 30CP.


Gear:

And replace TBS with my purple sturdy Red Mountain
According to these tests (RM), one Axe adds 2,2% dps, a Dagger adds 2,45% dps and a Sword adds 2,5% dps (fyi).
Axe bleed is quite random thou, I don't weave all my skills so I'm missing a bit on that because I have a horribly high ping+fps.

Alcast wrote: »

Have you tried this setup?
5x Vicious Serpent
3x Agility
2x Velidreth
2x Maelstrom (1x Axe Sharp, 1x Dagger Precise)

I don't have Velindreth yet, I only ran the dungeon twice and gave the helmet to a friend.
Your setup looks like it's optimized for AOE (sustain), I'd personally run 5xRed Mountain (or TBS) with 3xVO + 2xVelidreth for single target if you can sustain that, you'd lose 600 Stam and 190 WD over your setup, but gain the RM 5pcs bonus.
Thats about 2,5%-3% dps loss but thats just 1,5k dps (at 50k), which is nowhere close to RM.
If you wanna farm Velindreth drop me a message in game, I've been planning to test it anyways

Oh I've just read @Flak 's post, where he basically describes the same setup.
@LEGENDARYYY , you said that it procs for 10k base damage, how many CP do you have in Mighty?
Velindreth does poison (or disease?) damage, which is properly implemented and buffed. That means it can do 10k normal procs and can crit for 25k, if you're running TBS with a Warhorn up (in the first 10s).