Red Mountain new stam dps meta?

Asmael · August 2016

DeadDealer wrote: »

you must watch there was a topic about 3 sorcs with Velidreth killed Skoria on vet in 30 seconds

with video

Already seen it, but a video without mathematical data cannot be exploited properly. As far as I'm concerned, I can already kill Skoria within 30 seconds without Veli or RM. If the actual DPS gain compared to another set is just a few %, it won't be really visible. Plus we need to know the exact setup used, knowing someone is using Veli says nothing about the rest.

Reevster · August 2016

So basically, dont bother buying RM set since ZOS is watching this thread and income nerf soon.....

Nifty2g · August 2016

peniku8 wrote: »

Flak wrote: »

@LEGENDARYYY : I think you got me wrong there, I'm not talking about your overall DPS, solely about the DPS by RM.

And I totally agree on the burst capabilities, just trying to find ways to make it more effective.

To be fair, the screenshots posted by @LEGENDARYYY are on Stamblade using Surprise Attack and @Asmael got a StamDK, which uses many class skills along the weapon skills (thanks for the screens btw!).
Only @triklops79 posted Stamsorc screens, which would be the perfect class for RedMountain since your only active class dps skill is Hurricane there, and he got by far the best results.

If you have a look at my video, testing Stamsorc on the same guard (Abah's Watch, great for testing since he stands still, doesn't stun you and you can easily outheal his attacks over a longer period).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP1eQrowQxg

You can see that my dps is around 45k when the guard hits 0%, Minor Aegis doesn't work on guard, otherwise the situation would've been pretty much the same as fighting a trial boss in a buffed group, so this guard is a really good dps dummy IMO, even if the dps rises after 0% (ofc), it's still great for comparing sets because that won't matter as long as you're fighting the same target.
Triklops got 3,7k dps out of RM+TBS, thats why I'm quite sure that the set will output at least 3,5k in boss fights.
Also, keep in mind that it will proc even if you only have a few dots on the boss, which means that it should become more effective on dynamic fights (say the warrior fight, when he runs away and jumps etc).
In addition to that cool bonus, the set still offers the 3% crit+130WD which is roughly 3% dps increase.
Thats why I'm positive here, that RM could dominate many fights.

oh and fyi:
RM scales with armor penetration+weapon crit
and to the other guy asking: it can't proc with merciless resolve, thats a class skill
and I doubt that it has an animation

I really highly doubt that RM will dominate in a raid setting.
Especially when we have Major Force with 80% uptime in raids for TBS. Here is a picture for reference.

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

peniku8 wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Can you provide details about your class, set-up, CP distribution, and rotation in your tests?

I currently have a Dark Elf Stam DK and think the theory craft would be 5 tbs, 5 RM, with a maelstrom axe/dagger front bar and bow back bar. Tho I would be interested how such a set-up compares against 5 TBS with 5 Morag Tong now that it drops jewelry and all traits.

Edit: How would the same tests compare to a khajit or Redguard?

I'm running Khajit StamSorc

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEnxlqiC3t8

CP:

Althou I changed my CP to 10 points into Precise Strikes and all leftovers into Thaumaturge after some more calculations
(after these tests). Oh and that was pre-patch, so add 30CP.

Gear:

And replace TBS with my purple sturdy Red Mountain
According to these tests (RM), one Axe adds 2,2% dps, a Dagger adds 2,45% dps and a Sword adds 2,5% dps (fyi).
Axe bleed is quite random thou, I don't weave all my skills so I'm missing a bit on that because I have a horribly high ping+fps.

Alcast wrote: »

Have you tried this setup?
5x Vicious Serpent
3x Agility
2x Velidreth
2x Maelstrom (1x Axe Sharp, 1x Dagger Precise)

I don't have Velindreth yet, I only ran the dungeon twice and gave the helmet to a friend.
Your setup looks like it's optimized for AOE (sustain), I'd personally run 5xRed Mountain (or TBS) with 3xVO + 2xVelidreth for single target if you can sustain that, you'd lose 600 Stam and 190 WD over your setup, but gain the RM 5pcs bonus.
Thats about 2,5%-3% dps loss but thats just 1,5k dps (at 50k), which is nowhere close to RM.
If you wanna farm Velindreth drop me a message in game, I've been planning to test it anyways

Oh I've just read @Flak 's post, where he basically describes the same setup.
@LEGENDARYYY , you said that it procs for 10k base damage, how many CP do you have in Mighty?
Velindreth does poison (or disease?) damage, which is properly implemented and buffed. That means it can do 10k normal procs and can crit for 25k, if you're running TBS with a Warhorn up (in the first 10s).

When I said base I meant the set tooltip.

peniku8 · August 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

I really highly doubt that RM will dominate in a raid setting.
Especially when we have Major Force with 80% uptime in raids for TBS. Here is a picture for reference.

The fun thing is that Major Force isn't affecting TBS like you think.
You may think 'the 30% from Warhorn also make the Shadow more effective'.
Yea, thats true, here is the dps gain with your said 80% uptime: 0,3%.
Yea it really is 0,3%, how TBS actually works is that it buffs your dps by 10%, which means the dps gain by Warhorn gets another 10% buff from TBS, which is actually quite good ofc.
According to my tests RM would to 2,5% more dps at 50k. You did 55k, means 10% more, so TBS gains 1% over RM.
So RM should still be 1,5% better

Nifty2g · August 2016

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I really highly doubt that RM will dominate in a raid setting.
Especially when we have Major Force with 80% uptime in raids for TBS. Here is a picture for reference.

The fun thing is that Major Force isn't affecting TBS like you think.
You may think 'the 30% from Warhorn also make the Shadow more effective'.
Yea, thats true, here is the dps gain with your said 80% uptime: 0,3%.
Yea it really is 0,3%, how TBS actually works is that it buffs your dps by 10%, which means the dps gain by Warhorn gets another 10% buff from TBS, which is actually quite good ofc.
According to my tests RM would to 2,5% more dps at 50k. You did 55k, means 10% more, so TBS gains 1% over RM.
So RM should still be 1,5% better

Hold up where are you getting 0.3% from?

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I really highly doubt that RM will dominate in a raid setting.
Especially when we have Major Force with 80% uptime in raids for TBS. Here is a picture for reference.

The fun thing is that Major Force isn't affecting TBS like you think.
You may think 'the 30% from Warhorn also make the Shadow more effective'.
Yea, thats true, here is the dps gain with your said 80% uptime: 0,3%.
Yea it really is 0,3%, how TBS actually works is that it buffs your dps by 10%, which means the dps gain by Warhorn gets another 10% buff from TBS, which is actually quite good ofc.
According to my tests RM would to 2,5% more dps at 50k. You did 55k, means 10% more, so TBS gains 1% over RM.
So RM should still be 1,5% better

Hold up where are you getting 0.3% from?

Warhorn gives u 30% more critical dmg, TBS boosts that by 10%, leading to a 33% critical dmg with TBS instead of 30% with RM, warhorn up.

3% more critical damage during 80% of a fight with 55k single target dps is probably a 0,3% dps gain according to his calculations, which I haven't seen tought.

Am I on to something here peniku?:D

juhasman · August 2016

Derra wrote: »

I love how this guy tries to create a hype around a mediocre set while having bought all the cheap pieces and relisted them for absurd prices.

Way to go mate - advanced marketing techniques

This.

I dont say that RM is bad but i tested it and it still cant beat TBS+VO+malestorms especially in group runs , where TBS get much more profits than RM and VO is masterpiece itself so no chance to change VO to RM. Also @LEGENDARYYY You posted lot of pictures how good proccing You have during 5-10 seconds fight but i can also show pics that during same time i had no proc sometimes I think You also had similar sutuations. And that 124 sec fight is little faked comparing to real fight where You get 30k dps+ and RM is not at the top of dmg list but at the end. If You've deal only 20 supprise attacks during 2 minutes fight something is fake.

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2016

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Flak wrote: »

I only played with Velidreth on PTS a couple weeks ago but it gave me around 2.7k single target on StamDK.
Would be nice to combine it with RM.

2.7k ?

but but, the base is 10300/10 = 1k dps, with 100% crit thats 1.5k dps. How can u boost it to 2.7k from passives? And it also has worse RNG than RM cus less procs. To me thats 1.5k dps ish even with passives? (< rough estimates from me, @peniku8 should calculate it more accurately)

I'm talking about the proc only here.

It crits for 32k+ with warhorn...

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Flak wrote: »

I only played with Velidreth on PTS a couple weeks ago but it gave me around 2.7k single target on StamDK.
Would be nice to combine it with RM.

2.7k ?

but but, the base is 10300/10 = 1k dps, with 100% crit thats 1.5k dps. How can u boost it to 2.7k from passives? And it also has worse RNG than RM cus less procs. To me thats 1.5k dps ish even with passives? (< rough estimates from me, @peniku8 should calculate it more accurately)

I'm talking about the proc only here.

It crits for 32k+ with warhorn...

roger that. then its better than I thought and has to be tested.

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

juhasman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I love how this guy tries to create a hype around a mediocre set while having bought all the cheap pieces and relisted them for absurd prices.

Way to go mate - advanced marketing techniques

This.

I dont say that RM is bad but i tested it and it still cant beat TBS+VO+malestorms especially in group runs , where TBS get much more profits than RM and VO is masterpiece itself so no chance to change VO to RM. Also @LEGENDARYYY You posted lot of pictures how good proccing You have during 5-10 seconds fight but i can also show pics that during same time i had no proc sometimes I think You also had similar sutuations. And that 124 sec fight is little faked comparing to real fight where You get 30k dps+ and RM is not at the top of dmg list but at the end. If You've deal only 20 supprise attacks during 2 minutes fight something is fake.

those screens of short fights are to test max proc and cooldown, not to show DPS... cmon

if u tested this set and didnt proc often then u didn't endless hail and other dots.

Flak · August 2016

I've sent a ticket now and encouraging everyone to do the same, they have to make it scale of Armorpenetration.
They'll send you an auto-response first that got nothing to do with the problem so make sure to send in another line, only then it will be forwarded to the devs.

peniku8 · August 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I really highly doubt that RM will dominate in a raid setting.
Especially when we have Major Force with 80% uptime in raids for TBS. Here is a picture for reference.

The fun thing is that Major Force isn't affecting TBS like you think.
You may think 'the 30% from Warhorn also make the Shadow more effective'.
Yea, thats true, here is the dps gain with your said 80% uptime: 0,3%.
Yea it really is 0,3%, how TBS actually works is that it buffs your dps by 10%, which means the dps gain by Warhorn gets another 10% buff from TBS, which is actually quite good ofc.
According to my tests RM would to 2,5% more dps at 50k. You did 55k, means 10% more, so TBS gains 1% over RM.
So RM should still be 1,5% better

Hold up where are you getting 0.3% from?

Warhorn makes the Shadow itself 0,3% more effective
It is the difference between:
-The difference between non Shadow non Warhorn - Warhorn
-Shadow non Warhorn - Warhorn
Since the Shadow buffs Warhorn, and Warhorn buffs the Shadow.
I've been theorycrafting for hours and did alot of maths and tests to confirm this but keep in mind that it compares two comparisons based on a 30% buff of a 18% buff, it gets smaller and smaller with every step and is close to nothing in the end.

The Shadow buffs Warhorn by about 10% on the other hand, just on top with all the other dps.
I just wanna make clear that this "Hoax" between Warhorn and the Shadow going along so well because they both buff critical damage is false, it's just because TBS is an all dynamic buff. If you output 1 million dps, TBS will buff it by 100k.
Maybe I was just the only person confused by this, if so ignore me

So we can say, all your attacks profit from Shadow indirectly through Warhorn, and in comparison only RM profits directly from Warhorn as 5pcs bonus. But it does, and another 30% dps on top of the 3,5k is more than the 30% dps through the 10% buff from TBS to all attacks (warhorn buffs RM by 1k dps, it buffs all your TBS affected Shadow attacks by 3% which is 1,5k at 50k dps, so slightly more than RM).
So, we have the same output as before. RM outputs 2,5% more dps without warhorn and 1,5% more dps with warhorn up.
It's incredibly close in perfect situations, but the worse the situation, the more effective RM

Flak wrote: »

I've sent a ticket now and encouraging everyone to do the same, they have to make it scale of Armorpenetration.
They'll send you an auto-response first that got nothing to do with the problem so make sure to send in another line, only then it will be forwarded to the devs.

Sounds good, I'll do the same, hope they fix it and buff it

Nifty2g · August 2016

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I really highly doubt that RM will dominate in a raid setting.
Especially when we have Major Force with 80% uptime in raids for TBS. Here is a picture for reference.

The fun thing is that Major Force isn't affecting TBS like you think.
You may think 'the 30% from Warhorn also make the Shadow more effective'.
Yea, thats true, here is the dps gain with your said 80% uptime: 0,3%.
Yea it really is 0,3%, how TBS actually works is that it buffs your dps by 10%, which means the dps gain by Warhorn gets another 10% buff from TBS, which is actually quite good ofc.
According to my tests RM would to 2,5% more dps at 50k. You did 55k, means 10% more, so TBS gains 1% over RM.
So RM should still be 1,5% better

Hold up where are you getting 0.3% from?

Warhorn makes the Shadow itself 0,3% more effective
It is the difference between:
-The difference between non Shadow non Warhorn - Warhorn
-Shadow non Warhorn - Warhorn
Since the Shadow buffs Warhorn, and Warhorn buffs the Shadow.
I've been theorycrafting for hours and did alot of maths and tests to confirm this but keep in mind that it compares two comparisons based on a 30% buff of a 18% buff, it gets smaller and smaller with every step and is close to nothing in the end.

The Shadow buffs Warhorn by about 10% on the other hand, just on top with all the other dps.
I just wanna make clear that this "Hoax" between Warhorn and the Shadow going along so well because they both buff critical damage is false, it's just because TBS is an all dynamic buff. If you output 1 million dps, TBS will buff it by 100k.
Maybe I was just the only person confused by this, if so ignore me

So we can say, all your attacks profit from Shadow indirectly through Warhorn, and in comparison only RM profits directly from Warhorn as 5pcs bonus. But it does, and another 30% dps on top of the 3,5k is more than the 30% dps through the 10% buff from TBS to all attacks (warhorn buffs RM by 1k dps, it buffs all your TBS affected Shadow attacks by 3% which is 1,5k at 50k dps, so slightly more than RM).
So, we have the same output as before. RM outputs 2,5% more dps without warhorn and 1,5% more dps with warhorn up.
It's incredibly close in perfect situations, but the worse the situation, the more effective RM

Flak wrote: »

I've sent a ticket now and encouraging everyone to do the same, they have to make it scale of Armorpenetration.
They'll send you an auto-response first that got nothing to do with the problem so make sure to send in another line, only then it will be forwarded to the devs.

Sounds good, I'll do the same, hope they fix it and buff it

@peniku8 Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

But RM perfectly balanced as it is now? its better than TBS even with bad luck on procs. Average 2% better or more. It often gives 5% more total dps in fights than TBS, and extremely rarely less. RM procs in combat situations that TBS wouldn't aswell, so RM has a kind of hidden extra 1-10% dmg on top of our calculations.
Wouldn't make sense to change a balanced new meta.

This set is gonna be BIS until ppl get 60k+ single target dps, and even then it might be better than TBS in every combat situation that is a tad dynamic.

I'll post some stats screenies from my vDSA run with RM. We already know that it outperforms TBS single target by 2% ish on the guard in Hews Bane from Penikus tests.

But first I gotta go through my build etc to keep things accurate

Build:
Nightblade
-5x legendary divine TBS medium armor
-2x legendary divine Red Mountain medium armor
-3x purple Red Mountain jewelry
-2x legendary sharpened lekis swords.

With this build my TBS boosts Red Mountains proc. This means we have to calculate how much TBS boosts RM in comparison to VO before I start spamming screenshots of my RM proc stats and compare RM/TBS:

So, here is when I gotta do maths....

Peniku had max RM proc crit of 12500 on his VO+RM setup on the Hews Bane guard. In a dungeon (like vDSA he would get +5% dmg from VO) 12500x1.05 = 13125 dmg max proc.

I have TBS+RM setup and I RM proc crit 13789 dmg on the same guard. But I'm wearing 2x swords, he is on 1x axe 1x dagger. 2x swords give me a 5% dmg increase on the proc. That means if I'm gonna compare this to peniku I gotta remove 5% from my proc (13789x0.95 = 13100 dmg).

But then, VO also boosts the RM procs that does not crit. This means if I had run vDSA with VO instead of tbs my RM would be 5% stronger on normal procs.

So, in reality RM+VO and RM+TBS give almost the same proc dmg, if anything, VO gives RM a marginally better proc than TBS does.

SO, we can now look at screenies from my vDSA run, how much dmg this proc actually does in fights, and by that compare TBS vs RM properly in these situations.

Example 1:

Fighting marcaud and his minions. The proc alone did 9% of the total dmg. The set bonuses on RM give all my other dmg a 3% buff in comparison to TBS set bonuses. (Extra weapon dmg and weapon crit)

Thats a total of 12% dmg (9% from proc 3% from passives) from Red Mountain here. We all know TBS increases ur dmg by ~10%. This means swapping my RM set with TBS wouldave given me at least 2% less dmg in this fight.

(I say at least, because I know that RM procs all the time in situations where I have a bad rotation, roll dodging, healing myself, etc. I'll actually calculate that hidden dmg on a more fitting screenshot below)

Example 2

I chose this screenie because that was the worst result I got in vDSA when it comes to RM proc. I only got 6 hits within 45 seconds. Thats only 1 proc per 7.5 second. And RM proc was just 7% of my total damage

I had trash dps too, so there mustave been a lot of trouble that round.

But, wait, 7% + 3% = 10%. Red Mountain with crazy low proc rate performed just as well as TBS in this fight, probably better!

Example 3

Nice, an area where mobs are vulnerable to fire. Sweet. Far as I could tell this fight got me the highest % from RM proc in my vDSA run.

13.7% + 3% = 16.7% dmg from Red Mountain. 6.7% better than TBS. And I only crit 60% of the time, bad luck.

This is a good screenshot to do rough estimates on how much more hidden dmg RM does.

I hit 20 Red Mountain procs in a fight where I was constantly moving around, dealing almost no dmg with bloodthirst etc. This means that Red Mountain proc gave me, say, 5 procs from just poison injection. Probably much more, but I will not exaggerate. That is extra dmg that TBS would never ever do. 5 procs of 10k average is 50k dmg extra. My total dmg that fight was 1 415 265 dmg.

50 000/1 415 265 = 0.035, thats 3.5%.

I'd say I got 10% more damage with Red Mountain this fight than I would with TBS, don't u agree?

I'll just say TY ZOS for giving us a set that is fun as hell to use and better than the boring TBS.

Please guys if any calculations of mine are off let me know and I'll fix it.

Refuse2GrowUp · August 2016

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

But RM perfectly balanced as it is now? its better than TBS even with bad luck on procs. Average 2% better or more. It often gives 5% more total dps in fights than TBS, and extremely rarely less. RM procs in combat situations that TBS wouldn't aswell, so RM has a kind of hidden extra 1-10% dmg on top of our calculations.
Wouldn't make sense to change a balanced new meta.

This set is gonna be BIS until ppl get 60k+ single target dps, and even then it might be better than TBS in every combat situation that is a tad dynamic.

I'll post some stats screenies from my vDSA run with RM. We already know that it outperforms TBS single target by 2% ish on the guard in Hews Bane from Penikus tests.

But first I gotta go through my build etc to keep things accurate

Build:
Nightblade
-5x legendary divine TBS medium armor
-2x legendary divine Red Mountain medium armor
-3x purple Red Mountain jewelry
-2x legendary sharpened lekis swords.

With this build my TBS boosts Red Mountains proc. This means we have to calculate how much TBS boosts RM in comparison to VO before I start spamming screenshots of my RM proc stats and compare RM/TBS:

So, here is when I gotta do maths....

Peniku had max RM proc crit of 12500 on his VO+RM setup on the Hews Bane guard. In a dungeon (like vDSA he would get +5% dmg from VO) 12500x1.05 = 13125 dmg max proc.

I have with TBS+RM setup and i RM proc crit 13789 dmg on the same guard. But I'm wearing 2x swords, he is on 1x axe 1x dagger. 2x swords give me a 5% dmg increase on the proc. That means if I'm gonna compare this to peniku I gotta remove 5% from my proc (13789x0.95 = 13100 dmg).

But then, VO also boosts the RM procs that does not crit. This means if I had run vDSA with VO instead of tbs my RM would be 5% stronger on normal procs.

So, in reality RM+VO and RM+TBS give almost the same proc dmg, if anything, VO gives RM a marginally better proc than TBS does.

SO, we can now look at screenies from my vDSA run, how much dmg this proc actually does in fights, and by that compare TBS vs RM properly in these situations.

Example 1:

Fighting marcaud and his minions. The proc alone did 9% of the total dmg. The set bonuses on RM give all my other dmg a 3% buff in comparison to TBS set bonuses. (Extra weapon dmg and weapon crit)

Thats a total of 12% dmg (9% from proc 3% from passives) from Red Mountain here. We all know TBS increases ur dmg by ~10%. This means swapping my RM set with TBS wouldave given me at least 2% less dmg in this fight.

(I say at least, because I know that RM procs all the time in situations where I have a bad rotation, roll dodging, healing myself, etc. I'll actually calculate that hidden dmg on a more fitting screenshot below)

Example 2

I chose this screenie because that was the worst result I got in vDSA when it comes to RM proc. I only got 6 hits within 45 seconds. Thats only 1 proc per 7.5 second. And RM proc was just 7% of my total damage I had trash dps too, so there mustave been a lot of trouble that round.

But, wait, 7% + 3% = 10%. Red Mountain with crazy low proc rate performed just as well as TBS in this fight, probably better!

Example 3

Nice, an area where mobs are vulnerable to fire. Sweet. Far as I could tell this fight got me the highest % from RM proc in my vDSA run.

13.7% + 3% = 16.7% dmg from Red Mountain. 6.7% better than TBS. And I only crit 60% of the time, bad luck.

This is a good screenshot to do rough estimates on how much more hidden dmg RM does.

I hit 20 Red Mountain procs in a fight where I was constantly moving around, dealing almost no dmg with bloodthirst etc. This means that Red Mountain proc gave me, say, 5 procs from just poison injection. Probably much more, but I will not exaggerate. That is extra dmg that TBS would never ever do. 5 procs of 10k average is 50k dmg extra. My total dmg that fight was 1 415 265 dmg.

50 000/1 415 265 = 0.035, thats 3.5%.

I'd say I got 10% more damage with Red Mountain this fight than I would with TBS, don't u agree?

I'll just say TY ZOS for giving us a set that is fun as hell to use and better than the boring TBS.

Please guys if any calculations of mine are off let me know and I'll fix it.

With all due respects to your build, you do not have maelstrom weapons and are therefore not testing things as an end-game set-up. And I do not mean this to bash on you. Simply, the maelstrom dagger/axe have extremely powerful enchants. The DoTs hit MUCH harder and therefore benefit much more from single target attacks.

RM may still be viable, but someone with a maelstrom bow and dagger/axe need to show a few parses from a vet mode trials boss.

And yes, I understand that your subpar parses are there to demonstrate proc rate. However, you cannot compare TBS with RM without it being a prolonged fight and without a min/max build parse.

peniku8 · August 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

But RM perfectly balanced as it is now? its better than TBS even with bad luck on procs. Average 2% better or more. It often gives 5% more total dps in fights than TBS, and extremely rarely less. RM procs in combat situations that TBS wouldn't aswell, so RM has a kind of hidden extra 1-10% dmg on top of our calculations.
Wouldn't make sense to change a balanced new meta.

This set is gonna be BIS until ppl get 60k+ single target dps, and even then it might be better than TBS in every combat situation that is a tad dynamic.

I'll post some stats screenies from my vDSA run with RM. We already know that it outperforms TBS single target by 2% ish on the guard in Hews Bane from Penikus tests.

But first I gotta go through my build etc to keep things accurate

Build:
Nightblade
-5x legendary divine TBS medium armor
-2x legendary divine Red Mountain medium armor
-3x purple Red Mountain jewelry
-2x legendary sharpened lekis swords.

With this build my TBS boosts Red Mountains proc. This means we have to calculate how much TBS boosts RM in comparison to VO before I start spamming screenshots of my RM proc stats and compare RM/TBS:

So, here is when I gotta do maths....

Peniku had max RM proc crit of 12500 on his VO+RM setup on the Hews Bane guard. In a dungeon (like vDSA he would get +5% dmg from VO) 12500x1.05 = 13125 dmg max proc.

I have with TBS+RM setup and i RM proc crit 13789 dmg on the same guard. But I'm wearing 2x swords, he is on 1x axe 1x dagger. 2x swords give me a 5% dmg increase on the proc. That means if I'm gonna compare this to peniku I gotta remove 5% from my proc (13789x0.95 = 13100 dmg).

But then, VO also boosts the RM procs that does not crit. This means if I had run vDSA with VO instead of tbs my RM would be 5% stronger on normal procs.

So, in reality RM+VO and RM+TBS give almost the same proc dmg, if anything, VO gives RM a marginally better proc than TBS does.

SO, we can now look at screenies from my vDSA run, how much dmg this proc actually does in fights, and by that compare TBS vs RM properly in these situations.

Example 1:

Fighting marcaud and his minions. The proc alone did 9% of the total dmg. The set bonuses on RM give all my other dmg a 3% buff in comparison to TBS set bonuses. (Extra weapon dmg and weapon crit)

Thats a total of 12% dmg (9% from proc 3% from passives) from Red Mountain here. We all know TBS increases ur dmg by ~10%. This means swapping my RM set with TBS wouldave given me at least 2% less dmg in this fight.

(I say at least, because I know that RM procs all the time in situations where I have a bad rotation, roll dodging, healing myself, etc. I'll actually calculate that hidden dmg on a more fitting screenshot below)

Example 2

I chose this screenie because that was the worst result I got in vDSA when it comes to RM proc. I only got 6 hits within 45 seconds. Thats only 1 proc per 7.5 second. And RM proc was just 7% of my total damage I had trash dps too, so there mustave been a lot of trouble that round.

But, wait, 7% + 3% = 10%. Red Mountain with crazy low proc rate performed just as well as TBS in this fight, probably better!

Example 3

Nice, an area where mobs are vulnerable to fire. Sweet. Far as I could tell this fight got me the highest % from RM proc in my vDSA run.

13.7% + 3% = 16.7% dmg from Red Mountain. 6.7% better than TBS. And I only crit 60% of the time, bad luck.

This is a good screenshot to do rough estimates on how much more hidden dmg RM does.

I hit 20 Red Mountain procs in a fight where I was constantly moving around, dealing almost no dmg with bloodthirst etc. This means that Red Mountain proc gave me, say, 5 procs from just poison injection. Probably much more, but I will not exaggerate. That is extra dmg that TBS would never ever do. 5 procs of 10k average is 50k dmg extra. My total dmg that fight was 1 415 265 dmg.

50 000/1 415 265 = 0.035, thats 3.5%.

I'd say I got 10% more damage with Red Mountain this fight than I would with TBS, don't u agree?

I'll just say TY ZOS for giving us a set that is fun as hell to use and better than the boring TBS.

Please guys if any calculations of mine are off let me know and I'll fix it.

With all due respects to your build, you do not have maelstrom weapons and are therefore not testing things as an end-game set-up. And I do not mean this to bash on you. Simply, the maelstrom dagger/axe have extremely powerful enchants. The DoTs hit MUCH harder and therefore benefit much more from single target attacks.

RM may still be viable, but someone with a maelstrom bow and dagger/axe need to show a few parses from a vet mode trials boss.

And yes, I understand that your subpar parses are there to demonstrate proc rate. However, you cannot compare TBS with RM without it being a prolonged fight and without a min/max build parse.

We have handed u tons of calculations on the matter, calculations that include warhorn and every aspect of end game. We have tested performance in both dynamic fights and single target , the CPs, the cooldown, the enchants, the average proc rate, the different weapon types. Both with and without maelstrom weapons, with VO+RM, TBS+RM, TBS+VO.

There is no indication that TBS beats RM that we can find. So, until you pull something from your sleeve that can counter our results then RM > TBS for sure.

Nifty2g · August 2016

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

I will try get @Asayre in here
but from my discussions with him, major force is multiplicative which is why it is strong with shadow, same with minor force. But with recent changes for things being taken out that are multiplicative and changed I am leaning towards this is probably a bug.
Almost every set I have shown him, he has told me TBS will beat them all in a raid setting with strong major force uptime.

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

Thread updated with latest info. Keep testing guys and if you find something just post it here and ill update thread.

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2016

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

Leon119 · August 2016

After reading most of the posts here ( lost interest after a bit ) im concluding that im better of using TBS or HR since they are crafted than a set which is a bit better in specific situations. Most time in trials its better to ST anw mobs like the suneaters and the overchargers so aoe isnt that important

Would personally go with 5 TBS 5 VO (weapons), 2 velindreth on stamplar and still 5 tbs 5 vo and maelstrom on the rest.

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

Alcast · August 2016

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

UPDATED 11.08.16

We have tested performance in both dynamic fights and single target , the CPs, the cooldown, the enchants, the average proc rate, the different weapon types +++. Both with and without maelstrom weapons, with Red Mountain + Vicious Ophidian, Red Mountain + Twice Born Star, Twice Born Star + VO. We have also calculated how RM will perform in comparison to TBS in trials with warhorn uptime

For now, the results are pretty clear. Red Mountain is better than Twice Born Star. 2% more single target dps, and way better in various combat situations, up to ~10% (rare, but can happen).

This is peniku dealing 50390 dps with Purple Red Mountain Sturdy trait.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEnxlqiC3t8

To see all calculations and discussions you can browse through this thread.

If you have any evidence conflicting with our results, please let us know and we will look into it and update the thread.

You are testing dps on a guard. TBS vs RM

You do realize that TBS gets strong in a raid environment with Aggressive Warhorn Major Force? >.>

TBS>RM in Raids by miles.

LEGENDARYYY · August 2016

Alcast wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

UPDATED 11.08.16

We have tested performance in both dynamic fights and single target , the CPs, the cooldown, the enchants, the average proc rate, the different weapon types +++. Both with and without maelstrom weapons, with Red Mountain + Vicious Ophidian, Red Mountain + Twice Born Star, Twice Born Star + VO. We have also calculated how RM will perform in comparison to TBS in trials with warhorn uptime

For now, the results are pretty clear. Red Mountain is better than Twice Born Star. 2% more single target dps, and way better in various combat situations, up to ~10% (rare, but can happen).

This is peniku dealing 50390 dps with Purple Red Mountain Sturdy trait.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEnxlqiC3t8

To see all calculations and discussions you can browse through this thread.

If you have any evidence conflicting with our results, please let us know and we will look into it and update the thread.

You are testing dps on a guard. TBS vs RM

You do realize that TBS gets strong in a raid environment with Aggressive Warhorn Major Force? >.>

TBS>RM in Raids by miles.

We already calculated RM vs TBS with major force several times in this thread. So unless those calculations are wrong, RM is still sronger than TBS by ~2% with warhorn up.

We are looking into it though cause there is a slight disagreement with how major force affects tbs.

Post will be updated regarding that when we have a conclusion.

Nifty2g · August 2016

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

UPDATED 11.08.16

We have tested performance in both dynamic fights and single target , the CPs, the cooldown, the enchants, the average proc rate, the different weapon types +++. Both with and without maelstrom weapons, with Red Mountain + Vicious Ophidian, Red Mountain + Twice Born Star, Twice Born Star + VO. We have also calculated how RM will perform in comparison to TBS in trials with warhorn uptime

For now, the results are pretty clear. Red Mountain is better than Twice Born Star. 2% more single target dps, and way better in various combat situations, up to ~10% (rare, but can happen).

This is peniku dealing 50390 dps with Purple Red Mountain Sturdy trait.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEnxlqiC3t8

To see all calculations and discussions you can browse through this thread.

If you have any evidence conflicting with our results, please let us know and we will look into it and update the thread.

You are testing dps on a guard. TBS vs RM

You do realize that TBS gets strong in a raid environment with Aggressive Warhorn Major Force? >.>

TBS>RM in Raids by miles.

We already calculated RM vs TBS with major force several times in this thread. So unless those calculations are wrong, RM is still sronger than TBS by ~2% with warhorn up.

We are looking into it though cause there is a slight disagreement with how major force affects tbs.

Post will be updated regarding that when we have a conclusion.

You realise major force was calculated wrongly here and not with multiplicative?
Come on dude, let it go, theres no way this set will be stronger.

juhasman · August 2016

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I love how this guy tries to create a hype around a mediocre set while having bought all the cheap pieces and relisted them for absurd prices.

Way to go mate - advanced marketing techniques

This.

I dont say that RM is bad but i tested it and it still cant beat TBS+VO+malestorms especially in group runs , where TBS get much more profits than RM and VO is masterpiece itself so no chance to change VO to RM. Also @LEGENDARYYY You posted lot of pictures how good proccing You have during 5-10 seconds fight but i can also show pics that during same time i had no proc sometimes I think You also had similar sutuations. And that 124 sec fight is little faked comparing to real fight where You get 30k dps+ and RM is not at the top of dmg list but at the end. If You've deal only 20 supprise attacks during 2 minutes fight something is fake.

those screens of short fights are to test max proc and cooldown, not to show DPS... cmon

if u tested this set and didnt proc often then u didn't endless hail and other dots.

I had endless hail and poison injection all the time, also i was using rapid strikes as main spammable ability(classic stam sorc rotation). It's just 10% chance and not always it'll proc each 2 seconds sometimes it'll create 5-7 seconds gaps. Longer fight last more gaps You have less percentage of DPS set create.

juhasman · August 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

UPDATED 11.08.16

We have tested performance in both dynamic fights and single target , the CPs, the cooldown, the enchants, the average proc rate, the different weapon types +++. Both with and without maelstrom weapons, with Red Mountain + Vicious Ophidian, Red Mountain + Twice Born Star, Twice Born Star + VO. We have also calculated how RM will perform in comparison to TBS in trials with warhorn uptime

For now, the results are pretty clear. Red Mountain is better than Twice Born Star. 2% more single target dps, and way better in various combat situations, up to ~10% (rare, but can happen).

This is peniku dealing 50390 dps with Purple Red Mountain Sturdy trait.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEnxlqiC3t8

To see all calculations and discussions you can browse through this thread.

If you have any evidence conflicting with our results, please let us know and we will look into it and update the thread.

You are testing dps on a guard. TBS vs RM

You do realize that TBS gets strong in a raid environment with Aggressive Warhorn Major Force? >.>

TBS>RM in Raids by miles.

We already calculated RM vs TBS with major force several times in this thread. So unless those calculations are wrong, RM is still sronger than TBS by ~2% with warhorn up.

We are looking into it though cause there is a slight disagreement with how major force affects tbs.

Post will be updated regarding that when we have a conclusion.

You realise major force was calculated wrongly here and not with multiplicative?
Come on dude, let it go, theres no way this set will be stronger.

Quiet. He bought all pices that was in guild stores few days ago for 10-20k and now selling it for 100-200k

Hype needs to be maded.

Alcast · August 2016

TBS>RM

L2Pissue · August 2016

this is the next generation of advertisement for sales and market monopoly
if you really want to test red mountain, why dont you post a video of trial of 12 people's raid with yellow red mountain armor and jewelry.. oh wait a minute, getting yellow red mountain jewelry will have you to pay money from your pocket, it goes against the plan XD