Red Mountain new stam dps meta?

SanTii.92

If the cd is 2 secs as intended there is no way it's new Bis.

Trublz

sAnn92 wrote: »

If the cd is 2 secs as intended there is no way it's new Bis.

Why do u say this? the viper set has a 10% chance every 4 seconds. So by definition it can 2x as much dmg...

SanTii.92

Trublz wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

If the cd is 2 secs as intended there is no way it's new Bis.

Why do u say this? the viper set has a 10% chance every 4 seconds. So by definition it can 2x as much dmg...

and viper is a terrible set for pve dps.

STEVIL

Trublz wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

If the cd is 2 secs as intended there is no way it's new Bis.

Why do u say this? the viper set has a 10% chance every 4 seconds. So by definition it can 2x as much dmg...

Viper set is NOT 10%.
Viper set is melee atracks with 4s cool.
If you have FIVE weapon effects going off every second with Red Mtn you have about 50% chance of proc whereas Viper is 100% with one melee attack. Then 2s vs 4s.
Also, i think base dmg is higher for viper.
Also viper POISON benefits from same cp as physical so itsvgonna get boost while for stamina builds fire usually wont.

Net result, no way 2x dmg.

That said, target selection will matter. Poison and fire have different prime vulnerable targets.

leepalmer95

Plus you need to take into account the mountain fire proc will go off spell penetration and spell crit.

DRXHarbinger

STEVIL wrote: »

Trublz wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

If the cd is 2 secs as intended there is no way it's new Bis.

Why do u say this? the viper set has a 10% chance every 4 seconds. So by definition it can 2x as much dmg...

Viper set is NOT 10%.
Viper set is melee atracks with 4s cool.
If you have FIVE weapon effects going off every second with Red Mtn you have about 50% chance of proc whereas Viper is 100% with one melee attack. Then 2s vs 4s.
Also, i think base dmg is higher for viper.
Also viper POISON benefits from same cp as physical so itsvgonna get boost while for stamina builds fire usually wont.

Net result, no way 2x dmg.

That said, target selection will matter. Poison and fire have different prime vulnerable targets.

Viper only hits one. Using an aoe like reverse slice or tornado should give a proc and damage for 8k to all enemies in the area. Far better than viper which will only hit one. Plus the crit on viper is capped. It does not hit for more than 9k on crit. Barely does more than 10% for some reason.

LEGENDARYYY

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Plus you need to take into account the mountain fire proc will go off spell penetration and spell crit.

wrong, my red mountain proc works with wep crit phys pen, about 80% crit chance on my khajit

I just bought viper and gonna run 5x viper 5x red mountain now in gold key and post screens of dmg results.

STEVIL

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Trublz wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

If the cd is 2 secs as intended there is no way it's new Bis.

Why do u say this? the viper set has a 10% chance every 4 seconds. So by definition it can 2x as much dmg...

Viper set is NOT 10%.
Viper set is melee atracks with 4s cool.
If you have FIVE weapon effects going off every second with Red Mtn you have about 50% chance of proc whereas Viper is 100% with one melee attack. Then 2s vs 4s.
Also, i think base dmg is higher for viper.
Also viper POISON benefits from same cp as physical so itsvgonna get boost while for stamina builds fire usually wont.

Net result, no way 2x dmg.

That said, target selection will matter. Poison and fire have different prime vulnerable targets.

Viper only hits one. Using an aoe like reverse slice or tornado should give a proc and damage for 8k to all enemies in the area. Far better than viper which will only hit one. Plus the crit on viper is capped. It does not hit for more than 9k on crit. Barely does more than 10% for some reason.

Uhh.. ok so i have not tested nor seen evidence supporting this claim but usually a proc for "attack" may be proc by any of the hit targets of a valid aoe but that does not usually translate into the proc itsekf acting like an aoe and damaging every target in the original area of effect.

So, i will reserve jydgement until we see evidence of this striking difference.

On another note, i wish aoe dps was figured not on damage output but actual damage lost.idea is doing 11k to hoardes of low health etc is often overkill not effective damage.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Plus you need to take into account the mountain fire proc will go off spell penetration and spell crit.

wrong, my red mountain proc works with wep crit phys pen, about 80% crit chance on my khajit

I just bought viper and gonna run 5x viper 5x red mountain now in gold key and post screens of dmg results.

Throw on meph and go proc the crap outta something!

LEGENDARYYY

Updated post with screens of viper vs red mountain!

LEGENDARYYY

Still testing viper vs red mountain in pink gear with some bad traits.


Look at this on the Warrior boss hel ra normal!

HUGE difference.

Flak

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Still testing viper vs red mountain in pink gear with some bad traits.


Look at this on the Warrior boss hel ra normal!

HUGE difference.

Viper only procs off Light&Heavy Attacks afaik.
I tested Viper in full Gold and I got about 2.5k on Manti.
All in all I think both sets are pretty underwhelming on pure Single Target.
Alkosh, vicious ophidian, TBS, Velidreth or Toxic Defiance should all be better.

LEGENDARYYY

Flak wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Still testing viper vs red mountain in pink gear with some bad traits.


Look at this on the Warrior boss hel ra normal!

HUGE difference.

Viper only procs off Light&Heavy Attacks afaik.
I tested Viper in full Gold and I got about 2.5k on Manti.
All in all I think both sets are pretty underwhelming on pure Single Target.
Alkosh, vicious ophidian, TBS, Velidreth or Toxic Defiance should all be better.

yes but pure single target is like 1% of this game. think about vDSA for example, where this set would probably shine.

I agree on trial bosses alone without any dodging etc its probably a tad weaker than those u mentioned.

Also red mountain set can be used in combination with any of these.

What about 5x vicious ophidian, 5x red mountain, 2x daggers (to compensate for the lost crit boon without tbs) and use shadow boon alone? Has to be tested.

Flak

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Flak wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Still testing viper vs red mountain in pink gear with some bad traits.


Look at this on the Warrior boss hel ra normal!

HUGE difference.

Viper only procs off Light&Heavy Attacks afaik.
I tested Viper in full Gold and I got about 2.5k on Manti.
All in all I think both sets are pretty underwhelming on pure Single Target.
Alkosh, vicious ophidian, TBS, Velidreth or Toxic Defiance should all be better.

yes but pure single target is like 1% of this game. think about vDSA for example, where this set would probably shine.

I agree on trial bosses alone without any dodging etc its probably a tad weaker than those u mentioned.

Also red mountain set can be used in combination with any of these.

What about 5x vicious ophidian, 5x red mountain, 2x daggers (to compensate for the lost crit boon without tbs) and use shadow boon alone? Has to be tested.

Tbh single target DPS is the only thing I care about as AoE DPS can not be compared.
But ofc if you are not into Trials/Dungeons other setups might be better for AoE.
Also I think TBS is BiS if someone else uses Nightmother, but I might have an explanation why your overall DPS was better with RM.. TBS is giving you a boost to your damage in percentage, so the higher your baseDPS is the more effective it becomes. However if you have very low DPS like your Screens show RM will still give you the same flat amount of damage and in that case it might be better than TBS.

peniku8

I made some calculations based on (partly my) test results (I'm only lacking red mountain).
So there is TBS, which lets you have the Shadow in addition to your Thief but doesn't offer anything else.
Then we have Red Mountain, which offers 130WD, 3% crit and the 5pcs bonus.
3% more crit is 1,5% more dps not using TBS, having a warhorn uptime of 100% (not overcasting for higher crit bonus).
130WD is 2% more dps (that is not very accurate, could be less)

So lets say 4pcs red mountain does 3% more dps than 4pcs TBS.
Having the Shadow does somewhere between 7 to 9% more damage, depending on your buffs.
I've seen Red Mountain adding 3,7k dps to a total of 45k dps over 100 seconds (with TBS as second set).
3,7k dps of 41,3k dps means 9% increase. That would theoretically mean that:

Red Mountain=12% dps increase (if you do 45k dps, it's basically 3%+3,5k dps,)
TBS=9% dps increase

If you wanna see my endless lines of calculations, sorry, I won't post em here because I'm too lazy and I'd rather rely on my own testing to get some accurate results, but as far as it looks, Red Mountain should output more dps than TBS, as long as you do less than 50k dps sustained single target. So using RM should be better now, maybe we will see 60k dps single target next patch, which would mean the comeback of TBS, having several sets of TBS is never a bad idea anyways

Edit AOE:
Lets say you have 100k AOE dps:
TBS would add 9k then and
RM would add about 7k dps, thats a 2% loss in AOE but 3% increase for single target

Flak

Hmm interesting @peniku8 but why do you assume 7%-9% DPS from TBS?
On my StamDK I have 82% Crit with a precise dagger and a sharpened axe. With a NB in the group it's buffed to 85%.
Ofc you could even reach more but let's stick with this setup. Shadow gives 18% more Crit Damage multiplied with your chance that is 15.3% Damage Increase in average.
And btw, Stamina also adds to your damage (10.5 Stamina = 1WD).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's a bad set, but I doubt that it's best in slot for single target.
I'd really like to test it myself but I'm on vacation

LEGENDARYYY

Flak wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Flak wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Still testing viper vs red mountain in pink gear with some bad traits.


Look at this on the Warrior boss hel ra normal!

HUGE difference.

Viper only procs off Light&Heavy Attacks afaik.
I tested Viper in full Gold and I got about 2.5k on Manti.
All in all I think both sets are pretty underwhelming on pure Single Target.
Alkosh, vicious ophidian, TBS, Velidreth or Toxic Defiance should all be better.

yes but pure single target is like 1% of this game. think about vDSA for example, where this set would probably shine.

I agree on trial bosses alone without any dodging etc its probably a tad weaker than those u mentioned.

Also red mountain set can be used in combination with any of these.

What about 5x vicious ophidian, 5x red mountain, 2x daggers (to compensate for the lost crit boon without tbs) and use shadow boon alone? Has to be tested.

Tbh single target DPS is the only thing I care about as AoE DPS can not be compared.
But ofc if you are not into Trials/Dungeons other setups might be better for AoE.
Also I think TBS is BiS if someone else uses Nightmother, but I might have an explanation why your overall DPS was better with RM.. TBS is giving you a boost to your damage in percentage, so the higher your baseDPS is the more effective it becomes. However if you have very low DPS like your Screens show RM will still give you the same flat amount of damage and in that case it might be better than TBS.

Flak wrote: »

Hmm interesting @peniku8 but why do you assume 7%-9% DPS from TBS?
On my StamDK I have 82% Crit with a precise dagger and a sharpened axe. With a NB in the group it's buffed to 85%.
Ofc you could even reach more but let's stick with this setup. Shadow gives 18% more Crit Damage multiplied with your chance that is 15.3% Damage Increase in average.
And btw, Stamina also adds to your damage (10.5 Stamina = 1WD).

but both rm and tbs has stam bonus so.

Flak

@LEGENDARYYY
So what? I know that they both have it and it's no game changer, I just said it coz @peniku8 didn't include it in his calculations^^

What I'm seeing is 15.3% vs 4.5% + 1.6-2.2k which equals 4-5.5% so up to 10% in total. That might change if you have a bunch of adds on bosses or on pure AoE, but honestly most of the time I'm not even running Steel Tornado coz trashpacks die so fast.

Toc de Malsvi

Flak wrote: »

@LEGENDARYYY
So what? I know that they both have it and it's no game changer, I just said it coz Peniku didn't include it in his calculations^^

I think he was trying to say that, that is why it was not included because it is a wash between the two. He appeared to focus on the parts of the sets that offered DPS potential and were distinctly different.

peniku8

Flak wrote: »

Hmm interesting @peniku8 but why do you assume 7%-9% DPS from TBS?
On my StamDK I have 82% Crit with a precise dagger and a sharpened axe. With a NB in the group it's buffed to 85%.
Ofc you could even reach more but let's stick with this setup. Shadow gives 18% more Crit Damage multiplied with your chance that is 15.3% Damage Increase in average.
And btw, Stamina also adds to your damage (10.5 Stamina = 1WD).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's a bad set, but I doubt that it's best in slot for single target.
I'd really like to test it myself but I'm on vacation

Crit Dmg = Base Dmg + 50% from flat crit bonus + 10% from trap (average) + 10% from (my) CP + 18% from Shadow + 10% on average from Warhorn (if you have a warhorn every 30s)
correct me if I'm wrong, I heard that wahorn is multiplactive with everything but that wouldn't make sense to me, they also fixed multiplicative values being additive now, they might've corrected that aswell idk
I calculated with a crit value of 85% with the outcome that 91% of your dps comes from critical strikes and the Shadow is increasing your dps by 9,6% if it's being calculated like I said above, if not I can recalculate it ofc but it's not as simple as crit % times shadow.
Also, I didn't mention the stam bonus since both sets have it and I treated these as fixed stats.

In addition to that, fyi: melee attacks (which proc Viper+ Axes Bleed) are:
Light Attack, Heavy Attack, Bash, Rending Slashes (only the initial hit, not the DOT)
seems like melee attacks are all non dot attacks with or below 5m range

vyndral13preub18_ESO

You know i started following this thread because i thought it would be fun to load up with a bunch of sets that proc damage as a lark. And it seemed like a good idea to find out if red mountain was worth the gold people are asking.


Now i dont even know what is going on and im pretty sure after trying to follow the last couple post my nose is bleeding.

I hope ya all are happy with yourselves.

Nifty2g

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

You know i started following this thread because i thought it would be fun to load up with a bunch of sets that proc damage as a lark. And it seemed like a good idea to find out if red mountain was worth the gold people are asking.


Now i dont even know what is going on and im pretty sure after trying to follow the last couple post my nose is bleeding.

I hope ya all are happy with yourselves.

Basically red mountain ain't bis

It isn't stronger than either vicious Ophidian or twice born star

peniku8

Nifty2g wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

You know i started following this thread because i thought it would be fun to load up with a bunch of sets that proc damage as a lark. And it seemed like a good idea to find out if red mountain was worth the gold people are asking.


Now i dont even know what is going on and im pretty sure after trying to follow the last couple post my nose is bleeding.

I hope ya all are happy with yourselves.

Basically red mountain ain't bis

It isn't stronger than either vicious Ophidian or twice born star

I would be thankful if you could post your test results here and what you tested it on, situation and group support etc.
A few Combat Metrics screencaps would be awesome

Flak

@peniku8
The calculation for it goes like this...
If you have a critrate of 85% it means that in average 85% of your attacks will crit and 15% not.
Shadow increases your crit damage by 18%, so now you only have to multiply it with your Critchance to get the average damage increase: 0.18 * 0.85 = 0.153 = 15.3%. So you see the higher your critchance is the more effective it becomes.

LEGENDARYYY

To sum things up so far:

Tests have concluded that Red Mountain > Viper by a huge margin. We are still investigating how RM performs compared to TBS. During dps tests and calculations they seem very similiar, but it seems RM in average is slightly stronger, especially in non-buffed situations. It is hard to measure RM and TBS cause its a proc vs static dmg increase. This also means that RM can proc in situations where TBS would never do as much dmg, say on a target with just poison injection on it, or when you are running for ur life while ur volley alone is still proccing tons of dmg on mobs. Sometimes if ur unlucky RM could have a low proc rate and might not proc at all. That said, no matter the outcome of new calculations, red mountain, tbs and VO are now the best stam sets. Without VO you can run tbs + red mountain which is absolutely lovely.

Will update the main post.

Mettaricana

My question is what drops the RED MOUNTAIN set at cp 160?

LEGENDARYYY

Mettaricana wrote: »

My question is what drops the RED MOUNTAIN set at cp 160?

HRC normal drops purple gear and jewelry

HRC vet drops purple gear and golden jewelry

afaik

Refuse2GrowUp

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

My question is what drops the RED MOUNTAIN set at cp 160?

HRC normal drops purple gear and jewelry

HRC vet drops purple gear and golden jewelry

afaik

I don't have the DLC yet (on console) but if it is like Sanctum Ophidia, then both normal and vet drop purple gear, with the odds for certain sets being dependent upon difficulty - i.e. normal has an 80% drop rate for the Bind on Equip sets and 20% for the Bind on Pick-up sets; vet is reversed with 80% chance for BoP sets and 20% chance for BoE sets. Gold jewelry is awarded for completion on Vet Hard Mode.

triklops79

Just thought I'd drop this here. This is pure single target with 5xRM and 5xTBS plus night mother weapons. No group buffs, only my own. In addition I needed to use surge instead of Evil Hunter on off bar to stay alive. :-D

triklops79

This.