Auction House

grom1024 · July 2016

ScottK1994 wrote: »

Fine. In what way does a shop sell one item per 100 hundred costumers? Even in petrol stations they're selling an item 100% of the time lol(the petrol but I shouldn't have to say that)

Pertol stations in my country have kiosks with some goods like simple snacks, water or other drinks, pens, journals, etc. Not everyone buys it, but some buy. Overall such sales are profitable. Maybe your country forbids it, I do not know.

jedtb16_ESO · July 2016

grom1024 wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

grom1024 wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

ScottK1994 wrote: »

Stealthbr wrote: »

Here's an idea: keep the Guild Traders and the entire system as it is, but introduce an NPC in every major city that, when interacted with, allows a player to search for the item they want and that NPC, perhaps for a fee, tells the player where to find it. The NPC does not tell how much of said item is available at the location(s) or how much it costs, only where the player can find it. An Item Scout.

It can't be complicated. Complicated and the buying and selling of goods isn't amicable.

You guys wouldn't be wanting this system in real life anyway. Need to find toilet roll. The shop down the road only has Lamborghini parts and candy. The next store you find has worn shoes and clown dolls. The next again store sells poison and food right next to eachither. Well guess what. You've *** your pants by the next shop but it does have toilet roll. Now you need detergent.

Except that is not how it is in this game. In any major hub you can find the same exact items. All this going on about can't find what you need is crazy. Either you want it dirt cheap and refuse to just pay for it or you want some obscure item that nobody else has a use for. And I think the market is doing fine on consoles as I pull in 100k+ in sales daily. Might miss a day here or there but it most definitely is not dieing as you are claiming. The market in this game is probably more realistic than most others. It is all supply and demand if you can't find an item there is obviously no demand for it so this problem couldn't be wise spread and effecting as many people a you think our a market for said items would emerge

If we take real word analogy, currently we have kiosks at gas stations. There are a lot of them, but choice is limited. Because only few people visit each of them. So only very generic goods could be offered.

---snip---

The larger the market the more diversity it could afford. This is 101 of economics.

we call them petrol stations here but the reason they are stocked the way they are is down to careful market research - specifically what is someone likely to impulse buy when they are getting petrol.

i think you need to resit the course

You could impulse buy anything, even micro-wave oven. It might have given out smokes 5 min ago. But diversity set of offers is not free to maintain (cost of shelve space, cost of contracts, etc.). So petrol station could not afford to offer you microwave oven for impulse buy. But bigger shops could, because more people visit.

And you snipped out the core argument: comparison with mega-marts, considering that you left all quotes above, that looks strange.

Let say 0.01% of visitors will buy certain position.

If shop have 100 visitors per day, you will sell 0.01 item per day. So you will sell about 3.5 items per year.
if shop have 100000 visitors per day, will sell 10 items per day. So you will sell about 3500 items per year.

But seller will have to pay the similar cost of maintaining positions in both cases. AH is the place with a lot of visitors. So it would make sense to post greater diversity of items there and they will sell unlike current situation with guild stores.

Production would come from loot for most items, if price of loot on AH - taxes will be lower than NPC price, people will not just sale it. For crafted items, few will sell below component cost+30% .

i snipped the bit i did because i did not want to comment on it.

i don't think you understand the concept of impulse buying. if my microwave stops i will go to a specialized trader - because i will get a better deal. this is not an impulse purchase. on the other hand i am filling my car up with petrol because i'm going on a long journey - look there is a cd from a band i like i'll get that to listen to on the journey - that is an impulse buy.

grom1024 · July 2016

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

i don't think you understand the concept of impulse buying. if my microwave stops i will go to a specialized trader - because i will get a better deal. this is not an impulse purchase. on the other hand i am filling my car up with petrol because i'm going on a long journey - look there is a cd from a band i like i'll get that to listen to on the journey - that is an impulse buy.

Impulse bying is a feature of buyer rather than of good. Weak ago I seen couple at 50s impulse bought 56" 3D TV while they were looking for frying pan. Normal shops promote impulse buying as much as other places. Especially at sales events.

Motivation of buyer is completely irrelevant to my argument. Important is exposure of items to buyers and cost of maintaining
this is exposure. For petrol stations kiosks due to low exposure they could only keep very popular items, impulse buying or not. Mega-marts have high exposure and could sell niche items with profit.

ScottK1994 · July 2016

grom1024 wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

i don't think you understand the concept of impulse buying. if my microwave stops i will go to a specialized trader - because i will get a better deal. this is not an impulse purchase. on the other hand i am filling my car up with petrol because i'm going on a long journey - look there is a cd from a band i like i'll get that to listen to on the journey - that is an impulse buy.

Impulse bying is a feature of buyer rather than of good. Weak ago I seen couple at 50s impulse bought 56" 3D TV while they were looking for frying pan. Normal shops promote impulse buying as much as other places. Especially at sales events.

Motivation of buyer is completely irrelevant to my argument. Important is exposure of items to buyers and cost of maintaining
this is exposure. For petrol stations kiosks due to low exposure they could only keep very popular items, impulse buying or not. Mega-marts have high exposure and could sell niche items with profit.

But they're selling oil every time? If someone goes to a shop they're usually looking for an item. Just like every person who visits your guild trader wants something

grom1024 · July 2016

ScottK1994 wrote: »

But they're selling oil every time? If someone goes to a shop they're usually looking for an item. Just like every person who visits your guild trader wants something

You are going into irrelevant direction. You would sell jute at 8g w/o problem, but anything more niche-specific is not going to sell with current system. For selling niche goods (for example, level 20 chest item sets), there should be high amount of visitors and you need to gather all pieces in your guild. This is just not going to happen.

The larger economy size, the greater diversity. The current economics has very poor diversity and boring, unless you just like to move few goods around. Mats, recipes, cp160 items sets. Almost all other items sells bad not because of lack of potential customers, but because they are not aware of sale position or purchasing and coordinating sale require too much efforts. Set items require buying all pieces at the same time. I would have bought some just look how set bonus works if not for other reason.

ScottK1994 · July 2016

grom1024 wrote: »

ScottK1994 wrote: »

But they're selling oil every time? If someone goes to a shop they're usually looking for an item. Just like every person who visits your guild trader wants something

You are going into irrelevant direction. You would sell jute at 8g w/o problem, but anything more niche-specific is not going to sell with current system. For selling niche goods (for example, level 20 chest item sets), there should be high amount of visitors and you need to gather all pieces in your guild. This is just not going to happen.

The larger economy size, the greater diversity. The current economics has very poor diversity and boring, unless you just like to move few goods around. Mats, recipes, cp160 items sets. Almost all other items sells bad not because of lack of potential customers, but because they are not aware of sale position or purchasing and coordinating sale require too much efforts. Set items require buying all pieces at the same time. I would have bought some just look how set bonus works if not for other reason.

I agree. I think if the guild trader system is going to stick there has to be some kind of noticeboard where you search items and it gives a list of traders and where with those items. Obviously not showing the price. If people are so worried about competition then make it by zone

grom1024 · July 2016

ScottK1994 wrote: »

I agree. I think if the guild trader system is going to stick there has to be some kind of noticeboard where you search items and it gives a list of traders and where with those items. Obviously not showing the price. If people are so worried about competition then make it by zone

The smaller market partition, the poorer diversity. No way around it. I would rather make global index. And I do not understand argument against prices.

ScottK1994 · July 2016

Me either, if things are cheaper that means your money is worth more

Conquistador · July 2016

I have grown tired of spending all day to find something. I just do without now. It's exhausting and stupid to have to zone everywhere to find an item.

Elsonso · July 2016

.

grom1024 wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

ScottK1994 wrote: »

Stealthbr wrote: »

Here's an idea: keep the Guild Traders and the entire system as it is, but introduce an NPC in every major city that, when interacted with, allows a player to search for the item they want and that NPC, perhaps for a fee, tells the player where to find it. The NPC does not tell how much of said item is available at the location(s) or how much it costs, only where the player can find it. An Item Scout.

It can't be complicated. Complicated and the buying and selling of goods isn't amicable.

You guys wouldn't be wanting this system in real life anyway. Need to find toilet roll. The shop down the road only has Lamborghini parts and candy. The next store you find has worn shoes and clown dolls. The next again store sells poison and food right next to eachither. Well guess what. You've *** your pants by the next shop but it does have toilet roll. Now you need detergent.

Except that is not how it is in this game. In any major hub you can find the same exact items. All this going on about can't find what you need is crazy. Either you want it dirt cheap and refuse to just pay for it or you want some obscure item that nobody else has a use for. And I think the market is doing fine on consoles as I pull in 100k+ in sales daily. Might miss a day here or there but it most definitely is not dieing as you are claiming. The market in this game is probably more realistic than most others. It is all supply and demand if you can't find an item there is obviously no demand for it so this problem couldn't be wise spread and effecting as many people a you think our a market for said items would emerge

If we take real word analogy, currently we have kiosks at gas stations. There are a lot of them, but choice is limited. Because only few people visit each of them. So only very generic goods could be offered.

With AH will have mega-mart which more people visit, so it has huge selection of goods as it could carter very specific needs.

You insists that everything that could not be found by browsing gas station kiosks is not actually needed. But mega-marts prove otherwise. There is a demand for goods that are not economical to sell at gas station kiosk. You just need to increase amount visitors.

The larger the market the more diversity it could afford. This is 101 of economics.

This is one case where real world analogies like this fall apart. In the real world, the people who own the gas station kiosks don't strip Walmart bare and resell the stuff at a higher price. In the game, they would strip Walmart bare and offer it back to Walmart at a higher price.

Korah_Eaglecry · July 2016

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

The more these threads are made the more people grow tiresome looking at an entire page of the same topic.

There's like 3 trading threads on the first page. God forbid you think this idea goes unseen or forgotten about.

Speak for yourself. The more these threads are seen the more people are reminded that not everyone agrees with the current system for the player economy.

ScottK1994 · July 2016

The fact that it comes up often at all is a big thing

Averya_Teira · July 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

ScottK1994 wrote: »

Above are some people with hundreds of thousands of gold and are worried that they'll seem less rich in a working system.

People say this a lot and it's nonsense. I'm in a good trade guild with a prime spot and I don't see any collusion or exploiting the system, just weekly raffles and such like any other guild.

What supporters of the global auction house overlook is that people like me will game the holy hell out of a global store front. I've done it in other MMOs and I'd do it here as well. I wouldn't need a guild or raffles or any of that nonsense, just me and a couple hours hacking some LUA and boom, your markets belong to me. The current system makes such market domination infeasible for the solo individual and difficult for large guilds. A global auction house would make it trivial for everyone.

Your cure is worse than the disease.

Wouldn't that get you a ban though ? Well, with ZOS, a 3 day suspension I guess....

Grao · July 2016

Averya_Teira wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

ScottK1994 wrote: »

Above are some people with hundreds of thousands of gold and are worried that they'll seem less rich in a working system.

People say this a lot and it's nonsense. I'm in a good trade guild with a prime spot and I don't see any collusion or exploiting the system, just weekly raffles and such like any other guild.

What supporters of the global auction house overlook is that people like me will game the holy hell out of a global store front. I've done it in other MMOs and I'd do it here as well. I wouldn't need a guild or raffles or any of that nonsense, just me and a couple hours hacking some LUA and boom, your markets belong to me. The current system makes such market domination infeasible for the solo individual and difficult for large guilds. A global auction house would make it trivial for everyone.

Your cure is worse than the disease.

Wouldn't that get you a ban though ? Well, with ZOS, a 3 day suspension I guess....

No, it wouldn't. He didn't really meant hacking, just creating an add - on to help manage the auction house. And taking control over the market is definitely not a ban worthy offense, I had a really tight hold over the gem market in WoW with a couple of friends, for years.

ScottK1994 · July 2016

I dunno how tight hold over gem markets in WoW equates to market control. In WoW it was really easy to just ask a guild mate to do it for you if you werent right financially.

I just don't understand the lack of interest in change, just because there's vast profit in terms of numbers. But the gold is worth far less

xilfxlegion · July 2016

Conquistador wrote: »

I have grown tired of spending all day to find something. I just do without now. It's exhausting and stupid to have to zone everywhere to find an item.

i love that attitude. i especially love that attitude when the sellers in the outlying spots price their stuff lower. i get some amazing deals that way.

you could probably visit every single trader in the game in about an hour, depending on what youre searching for. i have done this every day for over a year now, it isnt that hard.

jedtb16_ESO · July 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

.

grom1024 wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

ScottK1994 wrote: »

Stealthbr wrote: »

Here's an idea: keep the Guild Traders and the entire system as it is, but introduce an NPC in every major city that, when interacted with, allows a player to search for the item they want and that NPC, perhaps for a fee, tells the player where to find it. The NPC does not tell how much of said item is available at the location(s) or how much it costs, only where the player can find it. An Item Scout.

It can't be complicated. Complicated and the buying and selling of goods isn't amicable.

You guys wouldn't be wanting this system in real life anyway. Need to find toilet roll. The shop down the road only has Lamborghini parts and candy. The next store you find has worn shoes and clown dolls. The next again store sells poison and food right next to eachither. Well guess what. You've *** your pants by the next shop but it does have toilet roll. Now you need detergent.

Except that is not how it is in this game. In any major hub you can find the same exact items. All this going on about can't find what you need is crazy. Either you want it dirt cheap and refuse to just pay for it or you want some obscure item that nobody else has a use for. And I think the market is doing fine on consoles as I pull in 100k+ in sales daily. Might miss a day here or there but it most definitely is not dieing as you are claiming. The market in this game is probably more realistic than most others. It is all supply and demand if you can't find an item there is obviously no demand for it so this problem couldn't be wise spread and effecting as many people a you think our a market for said items would emerge

If we take real word analogy, currently we have kiosks at gas stations. There are a lot of them, but choice is limited. Because only few people visit each of them. So only very generic goods could be offered.

With AH will have mega-mart which more people visit, so it has huge selection of goods as it could carter very specific needs.

You insists that everything that could not be found by browsing gas station kiosks is not actually needed. But mega-marts prove otherwise. There is a demand for goods that are not economical to sell at gas station kiosk. You just need to increase amount visitors.

The larger the market the more diversity it could afford. This is 101 of economics.

This is one case where real world analogies like this fall apart. In the real world, the people who own the gas station kiosks don't strip Walmart bare and resell the stuff at a higher price. In the game, they would strip Walmart bare and offer it back to Walmart at a higher price.

exactly this...

xilfxlegion · July 2016

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

The more these threads are made the more people grow tiresome looking at an entire page of the same topic.

There's like 3 trading threads on the first page. God forbid you think this idea goes unseen or forgotten about.

Speak for yourself. The more these threads are seen the more people are reminded that not everyone agrees with the current system for the player economy.

and there have been posts on this from the beginning. have they changed the trading system yet ? no. so 50 more threads about the same thing arent going to change it.

jedtb16_ESO · July 2016

ScottK1994 wrote: »

The fact that it comes up often at all is a big thing

not really because its the same few people every time...

ScottK1994 · July 2016

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

ScottK1994 wrote: »

The fact that it comes up often at all is a big thing

not really because its the same few people every time...

I doubt that.

Korah_Eaglecry · July 2016

xilfxlegion wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

The more these threads are made the more people grow tiresome looking at an entire page of the same topic.

There's like 3 trading threads on the first page. God forbid you think this idea goes unseen or forgotten about.

Speak for yourself. The more these threads are seen the more people are reminded that not everyone agrees with the current system for the player economy.

and there have been posts on this from the beginning. have they changed the trading system yet ? no. so 50 more threads about the same thing arent going to change it.

By that logic the people asking for Text Chat on Console should of given up. The players asking for Small Scale PvP should of given up and those asking for the removal of Veteran Ranks should of given up.

Considering youre not a ZOS employee and have absolutely no means of speaking on behalf of them. To say this will never change is laughable.

grom1024 · July 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

This is one case where real world analogies like this fall apart. In the real world, the people who own the gas station kiosks don't strip Walmart bare and resell the stuff at a higher price. In the game, they would strip Walmart bare and offer it back to Walmart at a higher price.

Because you just could not even in this game. You could only target certain narrow categories of goods and even on those goods you could not maintain absolute monopoly. None of those goods that you have mentioned earlier is absolutely critical to gameplay, and most of them could be farmed with some efforts even by casual players. It is just nice to have.

Also, you will be able to pull this trick only one or two times. After you pull it first time, the price will stabilize at level you put it back. People are not idiots and if something has high price on AH, they will not offer it cheap. If you interfere too much with sales by undercutting, they will just start selling this specific category on chat. And even undercutting cannot be absolute because you will just not able to check AH every millisecond. Developers will have to add some defence just for performance reasons.

Also, AH does not have to be carbon copy of AH from other games. Simple preventive measures like limiting buys and sells to 100 positions per day from AH for account will significantly reduce your ability to play the market. Developers could think more of such measures to reduce risks that you have outlined. But instead you are insisting on that AH would be broken independently of implementation.

The problem with current scheme is the lack of diversity on the market. And that is natural result of idea of a lot of small markets. Only big markets could sustain diversity. Also there is major usability problems for buyers and sellers. Anything that stays between buyer and seller is just bad user experience.

From what I see, only few pro traders benefit from the current the scheme as it allows them to speculate due to price difference in isolated markets while spending a lot of time on it. All others and especially casual players will benefit from AH. Your eloquent defence of the current system just shows that how greatly you benefit from its defects.

Glyntt · July 2016

I can think of few things that would cause me to unsub and/or lose interest in ESO right now but an Auction House would do it.

One of the best things about this game is (if you enjoy trading) the trader system. You actually have to work to find items, join the right guilds to sell them, etc. It requires effort. It's a game unto itself. And that's the problem for some folks I guess. They'd like a zero-effort gimme system that destroys what we have now, devalues literally every item in the game, all while making market manipulation 1000% easier. Just. so. they. don't. have. to. search.

I will NOT support an Auction House in ESO. Keep our system unique please.

grom1024 · July 2016

Glyntt wrote: »

I can think of few things that would cause me to unsub and/or lose interest in ESO right now but an Auction House would do it.

One of the best things about this game is (if you enjoy trading) the trader system. You actually have to work to find items, join the right guilds to sell them, etc. It requires effort. It's a game unto itself. And that's the problem for some folks I guess. They'd like a zero-effort gimme system that destroys what we have now, devalues literally every item in the game, all while making market manipulation 1000% easier. Just. so. they. don't. have. to. search.

I will NOT support an Auction House in ESO. Keep our system unique please.

There is no challenge in the efforts to find item in guild stores for casual player like me. It is just repeating the same extremely simple and boring operations time and time again: a time wasting grind in its worst form. And I'm not against keeping guild stores like they are for those who like it. AH could additional selling place for players that do not want to waste their time on boring and tedious guild store checking activities. Currently, I'm just checking stores for my guilds, and looking for other guilds only if there is no needed mats in mine. Or if I feel lazy, just skip crafting writs for that days until mats will be up for acceptable price. Later happens more and more often.

Update: If you have fun searching guild stores, good luck to you. However, not everyone finds it interesting to role-play SQL query. Some like me have too much of it at work anyway. Why do you want reducing fun for others that want just usable place to trade and get done with it?

snakester320 · July 2016

Glyntt wrote: »

I can think of few things that would cause me to unsub and/or lose interest in ESO right now but an Auction House would do it.

One of the best things about this game is (if you enjoy trading) the trader system. You actually have to work to find items, join the right guilds to sell them, etc. It requires effort. It's a game unto itself. And that's the problem for some folks I guess. They'd like a zero-effort gimme system that destroys what we have now, devalues literally every item in the game, all while making market manipulation 1000% easier. Just. so. they. don't. have. to. search.

I will NOT support an Auction House in ESO. Keep our system unique please.

sorry but the im going to unsub from the game is like 100 years old .. by my understanding ZOS must make most of there profit off the kiddies wanting mounts and costumes blah blah so even if 1000 ppl unsubed beacuse of a GLOBAL AH which in my opinion should be introduced to stop rich guilds controling the markets and making it easier for EVERYONE to sell and find stuff.. its really not going to hurt much look at EA they spit out crap regularly but still make money!!

wayfarerx · July 2016

Averya_Teira wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

ScottK1994 wrote: »

Above are some people with hundreds of thousands of gold and are worried that they'll seem less rich in a working system.

People say this a lot and it's nonsense. I'm in a good trade guild with a prime spot and I don't see any collusion or exploiting the system, just weekly raffles and such like any other guild.

What supporters of the global auction house overlook is that people like me will game the holy hell out of a global store front. I've done it in other MMOs and I'd do it here as well. I wouldn't need a guild or raffles or any of that nonsense, just me and a couple hours hacking some LUA and boom, your markets belong to me. The current system makes such market domination infeasible for the solo individual and difficult for large guilds. A global auction house would make it trivial for everyone.

Your cure is worse than the disease.

Wouldn't that get you a ban though ? Well, with ZOS, a 3 day suspension I guess....

You could fully automate the process and yes, that would be a TOS violation... but it's not necessary to do so. I was thinking of a modified Master Merchant addon to scan the AH and an extension to AwesomeGuildStore that would automatically surface the best deals. I'd keep a laptop running ESO around and every half hour or so run a scan of the AH, buy up any good deals and immediately realist them for higher prices.

And it would not just be me, hundreds of people would do this. Many of them wouldn't just play the buy-low-sell-high game either, they would actively seek to control entire chunks of the market. And as long as people were not automating the process there would not be a single suspension or ban.

exeeter702 · July 2016

Interesting..... have none of you ever stopped to think for a second that the reason they opted for this system over an auction house is due to server limitations?

jedtb16_ESO · July 2016

snakester320 wrote: »

Glyntt wrote: »

I can think of few things that would cause me to unsub and/or lose interest in ESO right now but an Auction House would do it.

One of the best things about this game is (if you enjoy trading) the trader system. You actually have to work to find items, join the right guilds to sell them, etc. It requires effort. It's a game unto itself. And that's the problem for some folks I guess. They'd like a zero-effort gimme system that destroys what we have now, devalues literally every item in the game, all while making market manipulation 1000% easier. Just. so. they. don't. have. to. search.

I will NOT support an Auction House in ESO. Keep our system unique please.

sorry but the im going to unsub from the game is like 100 years old .. by my understanding ZOS must make most of there profit off the kiddies wanting mounts and costumes blah blah so even if 1000 ppl unsubed beacuse of a GLOBAL AH which in my opinion should be introduced to stop rich guilds controling the markets and making it easier for EVERYONE to sell and find stuff.. its really not going to hurt much look at EA they spit out crap regularly but still make money!!

another specious argument..... rich guilds do not control the markets.

snakester320 · July 2016

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

snakester320 wrote: »

Glyntt wrote: »

I can think of few things that would cause me to unsub and/or lose interest in ESO right now but an Auction House would do it.

One of the best things about this game is (if you enjoy trading) the trader system. You actually have to work to find items, join the right guilds to sell them, etc. It requires effort. It's a game unto itself. And that's the problem for some folks I guess. They'd like a zero-effort gimme system that destroys what we have now, devalues literally every item in the game, all while making market manipulation 1000% easier. Just. so. they. don't. have. to. search.

I will NOT support an Auction House in ESO. Keep our system unique please.

sorry but the im going to unsub from the game is like 100 years old .. by my understanding ZOS must make most of there profit off the kiddies wanting mounts and costumes blah blah so even if 1000 ppl unsubed beacuse of a GLOBAL AH which in my opinion should be introduced to stop rich guilds controling the markets and making it easier for EVERYONE to sell and find stuff.. its really not going to hurt much look at EA they spit out crap regularly but still make money!!

another specious argument..... rich guilds do not control the markets.

how so you have to bid on guild traders to my understanding so if you can afford to out bid another guild for the right to have a guild trader then you richer than the other guild so you get to sell your goods to the population where as other guilds dont!! thus being able to control the market as such..where as if there was a AH it would allow everyone to have a fair go at selling in the markets not just guilds with more money than others!! haters only hate because they stand to lose there market and it worries them!!

Iluvrien · July 2016

ScottK1994 wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

ScottK1994 wrote: »

The fact that it comes up often at all is a big thing

not really because its the same few people every time...

I doubt that.

I don't. I've been here since PC early access.

What we usually get is a newbie who either hasn't seen the previous threads, or has decided that their one will make all the difference, who starts a new thread on the topic... and then comparatively quickly the same old names pile in. Occasionally even to the point of arguing around the OP.