Thoughts on difficulty level of new trials (vSO, MOL and soon vHRC and vAA)

jknight201 · July 2016

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

You need less than 20k DPS per DD for first boss MoL. So you should be fine with your 25k+.

Also there has to be Endgame-content for endgame-players. Why is it unacceptable, that there is content which is simply too hard for you?
Maybe ask for advice how to do better, alll progress-players i've met are happy to share their experience and help others.
But i agree, normal modes (or: the whole game) doesn't prepare you for vet-modes, you have to push yourself to the limit in easy-dungeons to practice things needed in hardmode. This is bad design, but i don't think ZOS is going to change this.
Also for AA/HM and HRC-HM there is nearly no RNG involved.
Your numbers are completely off btw...there are far more people completing vMoL and vSO...just take a look at the leaderboards.

You would think but my good progression group can't get past the second damage shield. Or we wipe because of the overall dps check with the pillar phase.

I agree there has to be endgame content for endgame players. But I think Zos needs to scale it so there is a range from easy (for the majority of ESO players) to impossibly hard for the elite players. Again the problem is the HUGE jump from normal mode to veteran mode.

All the trials have RNG components. AA HM, for example, if you get meteors stacked followed by an atro drop - someone is going to die. If that's the healer, that's a problem. Then there's the mines. And at the execute phase, if you get meteored when rolling into the center - you die. That's pure RNG. HRC has RNG components as well - all the trials do. You use a strategy to minimize or avoid RNG, but it can't be completely avoided.

And I just looked on the NA server and only 51 people have completed vMOL. Ever. Sounds like a "few dozen" to me.

I'm not trying to be mean, but how can you consider your group good if you can't beat the first boss of maw? My group cleared it on day 2 of the pts missing 3 of our core members

It depends on how you define "good". Remember the bar is set very low for this game - if you don't believe me, queue up for dungeon with random people. Our group is better than probably 90%+ of all ESO players. Our dps average is above 25K, which is probably in the 1% of ESO players. Not bragging here, just calling it like it is.

I don't know anything about you or the other people that were in your group, so I don't know what to make of your claim. Fact is that there are a lot of progression groups out there, and none of them has finished vMOL yet. Most still can't make it past the first boss. What was on the PTS is not what is on Live, so if you can 9-person vMOL past the first boss then I would be more impressed.

code65536 · July 2016

Destruent wrote: »

there are far more people completing vMoL and vSO...just take a look at the leaderboards.

That's a bit misleading, as many names on the leaderboards are alts. The raiding scene is more robust on PC/EU, too. On PC/NA, only three guilds have ever completed vMoL. vSO, on the other hand, isn't that difficult to complete, once you have the right strategy down. We wiped horribly in our early attempts at vSO because we didn't have a good strategy, but now that we do, it's easy. The vSO board hasn't filled yet on PC/NA, but I expect it to fill soon, esp. if it becomes the weekly and people try to run their alts through it.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

What the heck kind of weapons these folks have?! Sheesh.. I have gold greatsword with 3200 weapon damage and a lots of CPs into my increase damages slot, but the most I've seen my character put out was only in the lower 20K and that's not charging in stealth for an attack from behind.

Same here.
The explanation lies in two words : animation-cut, aka animation-cancel.

These people have the same min-maxed gear and build as you and me. They don't have a better situational awareness than you and me. They are not more team-working than you or me. But they have spent hours upon hours practicing a rotation and use of their fingers to save many significant milliseconds between each attack, allowing them in fine to attack 30-50% more often than you and me.
That's the difference.

(and also, they belong to really organised group where buffing/unbuffing abilities are coordinated : never missing, never wasted/duplicated. That makes a huge difference too).

While I like coordinated groups myself, for the rest I'm simply not willing to do the effort. I won't farm a dungeon 1000 more times to get a divines instead of the infused I already have. And I won't spend hours fighting mammoths or whatever like piano exercise to get the perfect animation cuts. (I would if we had training dummies though).

There is a global cooldown on abilities that cannot be bypassed. The main way in which animation cancelling helps is through weaving basic attacks into the ability cooldown periods. High DPS relies a lot on DoTs, since the amount of damage done per cooldown is much higher with a DoT than with an instant-damage spammable. The trade-off, of course, is that the damage is gradual and you can't spam it, thus necessitating a good rotation that keeps your DoTs ticking optimally. And on top of that, group buffs/debuffs are important to hit the really high numbers. To pin high DPS on animation cancelling is a common misunderstanding of how high DPS is actually attained.

idk · July 2016

I respectfully disagree with OP.

Yes, nMaw and nSO are at nice difficultly level that most any group should be able to complete though some will find it very challenging.

I disagree that vSO and vMoL require elite groups. They do require a strong group that have put effort into developing strong builds and learn to work well together.

The reality is vMoL is mostly about mechanics. First boss, if the group is spreading the curse or doesn't place so columns well then people will die to many times to get the boss down in time.

VMoL is so much about mechanics. It pushes us to step up our game and become stronger players.

No, I've not cleared the dungeon though have cleared first boss a few times. It's great to have a challenge in the game. Please don't need this dungeon.

Foxic · July 2016

jknight201 wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

You need less than 20k DPS per DD for first boss MoL. So you should be fine with your 25k+.

Also there has to be Endgame-content for endgame-players. Why is it unacceptable, that there is content which is simply too hard for you?
Maybe ask for advice how to do better, alll progress-players i've met are happy to share their experience and help others.
But i agree, normal modes (or: the whole game) doesn't prepare you for vet-modes, you have to push yourself to the limit in easy-dungeons to practice things needed in hardmode. This is bad design, but i don't think ZOS is going to change this.
Also for AA/HM and HRC-HM there is nearly no RNG involved.
Your numbers are completely off btw...there are far more people completing vMoL and vSO...just take a look at the leaderboards.

You would think but my good progression group can't get past the second damage shield. Or we wipe because of the overall dps check with the pillar phase.

I agree there has to be endgame content for endgame players. But I think Zos needs to scale it so there is a range from easy (for the majority of ESO players) to impossibly hard for the elite players. Again the problem is the HUGE jump from normal mode to veteran mode.

All the trials have RNG components. AA HM, for example, if you get meteors stacked followed by an atro drop - someone is going to die. If that's the healer, that's a problem. Then there's the mines. And at the execute phase, if you get meteored when rolling into the center - you die. That's pure RNG. HRC has RNG components as well - all the trials do. You use a strategy to minimize or avoid RNG, but it can't be completely avoided.

And I just looked on the NA server and only 51 people have completed vMOL. Ever. Sounds like a "few dozen" to me.

I'm not trying to be mean, but how can you consider your group good if you can't beat the first boss of maw? My group cleared it on day 2 of the pts missing 3 of our core members

It depends on how you define "good". Remember the bar is set very low for this game - if you don't believe me, queue up for dungeon with random people. Our group is better than probably 90%+ of all ESO players. Our dps average is above 25K, which is probably in the 1% of ESO players. Not bragging here, just calling it like it is.

I don't know anything about you or the other people that were in your group, so I don't know what to make of your claim. Fact is that there are a lot of progression groups out there, and none of them has finished vMOL yet. Most still can't make it past the first boss. What was on the PTS is not what is on Live, so if you can 9-person vMOL past the first boss then I would be more impressed.

I meant we brought 3 people along who were not our core.

You keep bringing up randoms as If that matters, raids are not designed for the average casual player, they have more than enough content to keep them satisfied.

Hardcore players or the "elite" as you call them only have 2 soon to be 5 group content worth playing, let us have something.

The only thing I agree with you on is that there needs to be some intermediate difficulty for which to train on because as a whole the eso pve community is miles behind raiders from other games

Dagoth_Rac · July 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

You don't need to do the vet version. Just farm normal. You can get the same gear from normal just no yellows.

I don't think gear is the issue here. Challenge is. There is tons and tons of easy content in the game and then a few pieces of soul-crushingly difficult content. And nothing in between! It would be like if baseball consisted of nothing but little league and then, boom, Major League Baseball. Or if soccer was a bunch of youth teams and then, boom, World Cup.

There is this binary view of players, that everyone is either a "casual" who casts AoE magicka skills on bosses while in random green gear and wielding a bow, or is an "elitist" who has 14 spreadsheets of theory crafting, does 23 Blood Spawn tests per day, has every Maelstrom weapon in every trait, has 12 characters in every class/race combo so they are ready to jump on latest flavor-of-the-month build, etc.

But the player base is much more varied. You have awful players, bad players, OK players, average players, good players, great players, elite players, etc. But content only seems aimed at the extreme ends of that.

timidobserver · July 2016

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

You don't need to do the vet version. Just farm normal. You can get the same gear from normal just no yellows.

But content only seems aimed at the extreme ends of that.

vSO and vMoL have very different difficulty levels. Ozara is annoying depending on whether you are cheesing it or not, but any group of okay players should be able to get through it.

Foxic · July 2016

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

You don't need to do the vet version. Just farm normal. You can get the same gear from normal just no yellows.

I don't think gear is the issue here. Challenge is. There is tons and tons of easy content in the game and then a few pieces of soul-crushingly difficult content. And nothing in between! It would be like if baseball consisted of nothing but little league and then, boom, Major League Baseball. Or if soccer was a bunch of youth teams and then, boom, World Cup.

There is this binary view of players, that everyone is either a "casual" who casts AoE magicka skills on bosses while in random green gear and wielding a bow, or is an "elitist" who has 14 spreadsheets of theory crafting, does 23 Blood Spawn tests per day, has every Maelstrom weapon in every trait, has 12 characters in every class/race combo so they are ready to jump on latest flavor-of-the-month build, etc.

But the player base is much more varied. You have awful players, bad players, OK players, average players, good players, great players, elite players, etc. But content only seems aimed at the extreme ends of that.

Well said. But I think no matter what does get added. People will always complain that there is content that is too hard for them under the mantra of "I paid for the game so I should be able to finish all content" . At the end of the day the playerbase will never be satisfied with what gets added

code65536 · July 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

The reality is vMoL is mostly about mechanics. First boss, if the group is spreading the curse or doesn't place so columns well then people will die to many times to get the boss down in time.

VMoL is so much about mechanics. It pushes us to step up our game and become stronger players.

While vMoL is very heavy on mechanics/coordination, it is also very DPS-centric. Wait till you get further into the 2nd boss and you'll see why...

jknight201 · July 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

The reality is vMoL is mostly about mechanics. First boss, if the group is spreading the curse or doesn't place so columns well then people will die to many times to get the boss down in time.

VMoL is so much about mechanics. It pushes us to step up our game and become stronger players.

While vMoL is very heavy on mechanics/coordination, it is also very DPS-centric. Wait till you get further into the 2nd boss and you'll see why...

Even the first boss is DPS centric. The columns are 5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1, 0. Hello DPS check. If you can't finish the boss by the last 1 column phase, it's a wipe. And that TOTALLY depends on DPS. I know, we've been there many times.

jknight201 · July 2016

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

You need less than 20k DPS per DD for first boss MoL. So you should be fine with your 25k+.

Also there has to be Endgame-content for endgame-players. Why is it unacceptable, that there is content which is simply too hard for you?
Maybe ask for advice how to do better, alll progress-players i've met are happy to share their experience and help others.
But i agree, normal modes (or: the whole game) doesn't prepare you for vet-modes, you have to push yourself to the limit in easy-dungeons to practice things needed in hardmode. This is bad design, but i don't think ZOS is going to change this.
Also for AA/HM and HRC-HM there is nearly no RNG involved.
Your numbers are completely off btw...there are far more people completing vMoL and vSO...just take a look at the leaderboards.

You would think but my good progression group can't get past the second damage shield. Or we wipe because of the overall dps check with the pillar phase.

I agree there has to be endgame content for endgame players. But I think Zos needs to scale it so there is a range from easy (for the majority of ESO players) to impossibly hard for the elite players. Again the problem is the HUGE jump from normal mode to veteran mode.

All the trials have RNG components. AA HM, for example, if you get meteors stacked followed by an atro drop - someone is going to die. If that's the healer, that's a problem. Then there's the mines. And at the execute phase, if you get meteored when rolling into the center - you die. That's pure RNG. HRC has RNG components as well - all the trials do. You use a strategy to minimize or avoid RNG, but it can't be completely avoided.

And I just looked on the NA server and only 51 people have completed vMOL. Ever. Sounds like a "few dozen" to me.

I'm not trying to be mean, but how can you consider your group good if you can't beat the first boss of maw? My group cleared it on day 2 of the pts missing 3 of our core members

It depends on how you define "good". Remember the bar is set very low for this game - if you don't believe me, queue up for dungeon with random people. Our group is better than probably 90%+ of all ESO players. Our dps average is above 25K, which is probably in the 1% of ESO players. Not bragging here, just calling it like it is.

I don't know anything about you or the other people that were in your group, so I don't know what to make of your claim. Fact is that there are a lot of progression groups out there, and none of them has finished vMOL yet. Most still can't make it past the first boss. What was on the PTS is not what is on Live, so if you can 9-person vMOL past the first boss then I would be more impressed.

I meant we brought 3 people along who were not our core.

You keep bringing up randoms as If that matters, raids are not designed for the average casual player, they have more than enough content to keep them satisfied.

Hardcore players or the "elite" as you call them only have 2 soon to be 5 group content worth playing, let us have something.

The only thing I agree with you on is that there needs to be some intermediate difficulty for which to train on because as a whole the eso pve community is miles behind raiders from other games

Yes, I keep bringing up randoms because those *are* the bread-and-butter of this game. Those are the people who vastly outnumber the hardcore players and whose subscriptions keep funding content for everyone. So they are relevant. If they aren't happy, then nobody gets new content - simple as that.

What I am saying is that with the current trial scaling, there is a large number of people caught between the randoms and the elite. People who think SO, nMOL, etc. are all too easy but who also cannot finish vSO, vMOL, etc. There needs to be something in-between. That something seems to me to be the veteran scaled dungeons, with hard mode veteran dungeons for the 0.0001% of players. Right now it's more like the veteran dungeons are for the 0.0001% and that's not going to hold anyone's interest for long.

Woeler · July 2016

Can we please stop asking to nerf every piece of content for good players? The problem is not that trials are too difficult, the problem is that people thing they are entitled to competing a veteran trial with a semi-random group that never played together in 2 hours.

Calandrae · July 2016

I'm one of the many many people who find nSO and nMoL pretty easy, AA and HelRa at their current state no challenge at all. But vMoL and vSO are far above my skill level, and there really isn't anything in between.

I really don't ask any nerfs, in fact I'm opposed to it - people need challenge, and I don't care at all if some content will remain too difficult for me to finish. It's totally fine, because I am a casual player and don't even want to stress myself too much over a game. I know the limits of my ambition and determination.

BUT I really hope there was some in-between content. A third difficulty level sounds a great idea. Something that would be challenging but not out of reach. Something aimed at "moderately skilled or experienced casuals" so to speak.

I kinda liked how the "old" SO was. That was pretty difficult for me and the group I played with, but it was also something we managed to tackle and learn by just patiently practicing the mechanics.

And oh yes, I don't really care much for the loot. Sometimes I try to farm a set, but mostly I just settle for the crafted ones. So to me it's all about the content and the people I play with.

jknight201 · July 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Can we please stop asking to nerf every piece of content for good players? The problem is not that trials are too difficult, the problem is that people thing they are entitled to competing a veteran trial with a semi-random group that never played together in 2 hours.

No. The problem is that you have good groups who walk all over the normal trials like a cheap carpet but can't complete the veteran versions. Hard mode is impossibly hard for nearly every player of the game. What we want is a smaller difficulty increase from normal to veteran mode and we want to see the mechanics functional in normal mode, but just toned down so "average" players can still get past them.

Trials should be challenging. Not cake-walk easy. Not impossibly difficult. What we have now is too much at those extremes with nothing in the middle.

Attackopsn · July 2016

Not being able to complete the veteran versions should be your motivation to improve as a player. The problem is that everyone thinks that they can take an intermediate group into vmol, and when they fail instead of seeking to improve as a team they call for nerfs.

Ryuuhime · July 2016

They are trials. At the current state, AA and HRC are way too easy for what's supposed to be end game content. Isn't the point of trials to provide 12-man challenging content, with good rewards? Is end game supposed to be so easy that a group with half randoms can complete it easily?

I know that vMoL being part of the weekly trials means only a couple of groups will even have it done as weekly and it becomes a bit unfair for the groups that like to get weeklies done but can't do it that week due to that. But hey, it also gives the groups who haven't completed it yet an incentive to do it.

I like how the current difficulties are. Normal modes, that can be done by everyone and where all gear can drop, so you can farm them even if you don't do the veteran versions. And then veteran modes, harder versions that can't be completed so easily, and that drop yellow jewelry as reward for completion.

We need end game content to be more challenging, like the way it's being done right now.

anitajoneb17_ESO · July 2016

Ryuuhime wrote: »

We need I want end game content to be more challenging, like the way it's being done right now.

Fixed it for you

anitajoneb17_ESO · July 2016

Attackopsn wrote: »

Not being able to complete the veteran versions should be your motivation to improve as a player. The problem is that everyone thinks that they can take an intermediate group into vmol, and when they fail instead of seeking to improve as a team they call for nerfs.

Now put that in your head once and for all :
- Not everybody WANTS to put effort to get better, people sometimes just want to have fun.
- Even if everybody WANTED to put effort, not everybody would get good. Some people just can't get very good, for plenty of reasons (lack of time, ability to focus, eye-hand coordination, reaction time, 3D positioning, just to name a few.)

Also please put another thing in your head once and for all :
We're not worried because an intermediate group cannot do vMOL. We're worried because there's nothing to do for intermediate groups.
As GM of an "intermediate guild" I must say that I feel sometimes a bit bitter because we take time and effort for newbies, to make them feel comfortable with the guild and with the game, explain the basics over and over, run the basic dungeons with them, teach, explain, make them feel secure, and so on. But when they reach "intermediate" level, since there is nothing for us to do (either boring-easy or undoable-hard) these people either leave the game or leave us to join progression high-level guilds.

Hodor-like guilds should keep in mind that the people they recruit meet their initial requirements (knowledge of the game, 501+ CP, 25K DPS, whatever) because they have been taken care of by guilds like ours.
It's OK and I have nothing against these progression guilds. It's not their fault and I'm glad they exist for the players who enjoy the game this way.
But I am angry if no new content is ever designed for us "intermediate". Why should every new content be either a dead-easy solo zone or an expert-only super-hard dungeon ?

Izaki · July 2016

I like it the way it is, you actually gotta lose your mind to get this stuff done. [quote="jThe groups I generally play with are 20-25K+ dps, end-game players. We haven't been able to get past the vSO Manticora yet.[/quote]
My guildies on Xbox completed this thing with 25k+DPS, only a few were over 30k so you just gotta practice

Izaki · July 2016

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Christ everyone stop quoting the 1st post. Rakes forever to scrolls down.

VMoL isn't that hard imo it's just very very boring and people switch off. That fight before the 2nd boss it's just a long slug fest. Wave after wave and it's dull.

Vet sanctum really threw us. Smashed normal and went back to vet...The Mantikora is a different animal all together. Old mechanics too. ZOS it wasn't these mechanics that threw a lot of people it was the popcorn and suckerpunch instakill. Ozara is a lot lot tankier but a good strategy will see you through it. You need 2 tanks for this fight ideally.

Last boss. ..Meh. ..stack and burn as always. Scream the mantikora comes out burn it down and stack back up.

AA though will be interesting. Tanking 5 axes is already very very hard. Adding 200% more damage into it I'm. Not sure how hard mode will work.

Hel Ra. .well zerg bomb all the adds ads, and hope for no nasty changes with the bosses I don't see any issues with it. Last boss is just a dps race. Once he loses the plot and gets angry it may get hard.

Yeah, didn't you guys get vSO done like a couple of days ago ? Nice nice nice

Ep1kMalware · July 2016

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

@Wrobel

The normal trials (nSO and nMOL) seem to be about the right level of difficulty. A random group with little to no experience will struggle to get through the trial, but they can if they keep trying. An experienced group with maybe half random people can get through it with a little difficulty. An experienced group can easy-button through it with little effort. It may not be a whole lot of fun, but at least it's good loot (at least for SO and MOL).

My problem is with the veteran versions. There is a *huge* increase in difficulty from normal to veteran mode. Normal SO is a complete walk-in-the-park but vSO is very challenging. Most experienced groups can't complete it, while the elite groups seem to have little problem. Normal MOL is fairly easy for an experienced group, but in vMOL the same experienced groups can't get past the first boss, or rarely the second. There are only a few elite groups that have been able to even complete vMOL. After trying HRC on the PTS, it looks like Zos is going to do the same thing with AA and HRC.

Is Zos really so out of touch with the player base that they have weekly leaderboard trials (vMOL) that only, maybe 20 people TOTAL are capable of completing? What's even the point? Just mail those people the rewards because nobody else is able to go after them. And veteran hard mode is worse still.

It seems to me that veteran mode should be difficult but not impossible to complete for an experienced group. Veteran hard mode should be difficult for an elite group. I think Zos needs to close the difficulty gap between normal and veteran modes and then adjust (if necessary) veteran hard mode so than only a few elites can complete that. That or put the normal versions on the leaderboards - what's the point of having a trial on the leaderboards that 0.0001% of the player base can even finish?

there isn't a huge spike in difficulty. -.-

there is a difficultt increase at first, but then it's not so bad, it's exactly like how it used to be before the update. the problem with remodling content is that the new era of qq'ers accidentally bump into it and immediately want nerfs.

I'll tell you point blank: go run he ra and aa now. Learn the mechanics while they're roflestomp easy. Soon as the patch goes live the normal versions won't have these mehanics, so there is no better time to learn than now. Vet mode will be what it is right now, but with bigger life bars.

They're not MoL is the only uber OP content atm.

There *is* a huge spike in difficulty. If you don't believe me, go through nMOL and then try vMOL. It's night and day. I'll bet 90% of the players can make it through nMOL with guidance and a little practice. Only about 0.0001% of players can make it through vMOL. Sounds like a spike to me.

We have been running AA and HRC because we know it's going to get nerfed/buffed in the update. And the people who have trouble getting through AA and HRC hard mode will be unable to finish veteran mode. That's what I expect, because Zos seems to want to lock out nearly their entire player base from some content for some reason.

so then you have normal mode where you complete the exact same content trollolol easy amd get the ezact same loot. I think they added vetmode to tide 1% players over for a while since they're trying to ,ake dungrons ,ore facepalm easy. so was equally as hard back in the v14 days, if anythinf they're keeping it consistent without denying anybody anything/

jknight201 · July 2016

Attackopsn wrote: »

Not being able to complete the veteran versions should be your motivation to improve as a player. The problem is that everyone thinks that they can take an intermediate group into vmol, and when they fail instead of seeking to improve as a team they call for nerfs.

No, what happens is that vMOL is so much harder than nMOL that progression groups keep going in and rather quickly get to a point where they just stop improving. Then they get frustrated and then they break up, stop playing, lose members, etc. Been there, done that. Motivation to improve does *not* come from beating your head against an immovable object.

And it's not calling for nerfs. It's calling for the trials to be balanced so there is an actual progression from easy (normal) to medium (veteran) to seriously hard (veteran hard mode).

LadyNalcarya · July 2016

Jaronking wrote: »

I think the problem is that with the base game being so easy a lot of players are not prepared for the endgame content because of how ZOS handled the game.If it was as difficult as before the game wide Nerf I doubt it would be so difficult the game doesn't prepare you for endgame and so ZOS is force to Nerf content or the player base expected them to,because that's all they done.I been in groups who said we won't run this dungeon until they Nerf it or this trial its ridiculous.They need to change this mindset in the game and I think more people will try and will work On completing the new content.

So much this!
Imo a game should provide a wide spectre of challenges, not just 99% of dumbed down content and 1% of contents that is too hard for people who are taught by said 99% that they can ignore everything and do random things.
Ignoring mechanics is a bane of the game. Like, in many nMoL pugs 2nd boss is much harder that its supposed to be because people just wont listen about auras and colors. They would just rush in, explode the tank, die in prayer phase and cause chaos. Yes, even after explanations. Why would they need to think even a little bit if they can get their loot just by leeroying?
2 dungeons that have more or less strict mechanics, WGT and ICP were dumbed down multiple times because of it. And of course, people are still wiping there, because spamming attacks at planar inhibitor is much more "comfortable" than taking a pinion.
I honestly dont know why adult people have much lazier approach to games than little children. Nowadays quests made for children are harder than AAA games with M rating, this is absolutely insane.

ishilb14_ESO · July 2016

All of them should be easy since ZOS allows the use of cheat engine.

Ep1kMalware · July 2016

jknight201 wrote: »

Attackopsn wrote: »

Not being able to complete the veteran versions should be your motivation to improve as a player. The problem is that everyone thinks that they can take an intermediate group into vmol, and when they fail instead of seeking to improve as a team they call for nerfs.

No, what happens is that vMOL is so much harder than nMOL that progression groups keep going in and rather quickly get to a point where they just stop improving. Then they get frustrated and then they break up, stop playing, lose members, etc. Been there, done that. Motivation to improve does *not* come from beating your head against an immovable object.

And it's not calling for nerfs. It's calling for the trials to be balanced so there is an actual progression from easy (normal) to medium (veteran) to seriously hard (veteran hard mode).

yeah but most "progression" teams suck , never sthu, and refusw to follow direction, then magically wonder why they've been on the boss for 6hre and voe never to go back/

I'm ranked in a few good guilds, where 'good' players ask me tk help them out often with trials.

I can say with absolute certainty that 9/10 progression stops because of the people in the trial, not the trial itself. if tou tell your group to avoid the blue balls on first boss vet maw hands down you will notice what appears to he half your grouo running to them on purpose.

you help a group run hm helra for their weekly, explain the mechanics in great detail, and still get a couple people who keep blowing rhe group up and calling rhe team bad players.

^this is ce of group content in this game where you actuallt have to follow directions.hy they're hard. And they should be. there should be at least 1 piece of content in this game where you have to follow directions and not be rewarded for just showing up. even though that's exactly what normal is.

ffs you are getting full stupid mode where you press 1 button and get the same gear. why the selfish qq?

edit: I'm talking about actual progression groups, not trader guild rando runs. vso for example is exactly the same as nso before db, except mobs are vr160 now and have some buffed life.

anitajoneb17_ESO · July 2016

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

I can say with absolute certainty that 9/10 progression stops because of the people in the trial, not the trial itself. if tou tell your group to avoid the blue balls on first boss vet maw hands down you will notice what appears to he half your grouo running to them on purpose.

A few examples I've been through on EU :

- Leader thinks he speaks english but what he speaks is actually some sort of curious sounds and non-existing words put together with a strange accent from the moon ;
- Leader speaks continously and throws important directions in the middle of non-important chit-chat
- Leader doesn't ensure that everyone in the group understands english
- People in the group don't say that they don't understand english, for fear of being kicked. Also, they think they can understand everything by themselves just by following visuals.
- People keep chatting / joking about anything and everything and raid leader doesn't tell them to please stfu. Some people (like me) need silence to focus and understand.
- Many raid leaders tell people "what to do" but don't explain the actual mechanics (why people have to do what they have to do)
- etc.

Summary : a good raid leader is a VERY RARE jewel, raid leading is very hard. It's not enough to be a good player to be a good leader. That's one of the big hurdles that prevents otherwise good groups to complete hard content.

That said, in my "intermediate" case, what prevents me (and my guild) from achieving those trials isn't lack of understanding mechanics. It's a lack of DPS.

If ZOS insists on many encounters involving an enrage phase or any other DPS-check, please give us training dummies to practice our rotations.

BlackEar · July 2016

Destruent wrote: »

Problem is (atleast i think so) you mess up with cleanses, have to ress and therefore loose dps.
Meteor drop: there are positions where no meteor drops and you can avoid most damage by blocking. You can clear those mines in a right moment while blocking if this is neccessary without any risk. You can also use harness magicka or things like this to reduce inc-dmg even further. Why do you roll into the midle...just get near the center before boss drops to 20% and walk there as soon as neccessary, you can even stack the whole raid in the middle.
The only RNG in HRC is the warriors move which petrifies someone, but that's not that hard to handle.

on EU-PC there are 251 on vMoL rankings, vSO is full (80k+ is the lowest score)

But in the end i have to agree, the difference between vet and normal mode is too huge, pls buff normal mode.

There is a rank 251 not 251 players who have completed it...

Ep1kMalware · July 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

I can say with absolute certainty that 9/10 progression stops because of the people in the trial, not the trial itself. if tou tell your group to avoid the blue balls on first boss vet maw hands down you will notice what appears to he half your grouo running to them on purpose.

A few examples I've been through on EU :

- Leader thinks he speaks english but what he speaks is actually some sort of curious sounds and non-existing words put together with a strange accent from the moon ;
- Leader speaks continously and throws important directions in the middle of non-important chit-chat
- Leader doesn't ensure that everyone in the group understands english
- People in the group don't say that they don't understand english, for fear of being kicked. Also, they think they can understand everything by themselves just by following visuals.
- People keep chatting / joking about anything and everything and raid leader doesn't tell them to please stfu. Some people (like me) need silence to focus and understand.
- Many raid leaders tell people "what to do" but don't explain the actual mechanics (why people have to do what they have to do)
- etc.

Summary : a good raid leader is a VERY RARE jewel, raid leading is very hard. It's not enough to be a good player to be a good leader. That's one of the big hurdles that prevents otherwise good groups to complete hard content.

That said, in my "intermediate" case, what prevents me (and my guild) from achieving those trials isn't lack of understanding mechanics. It's a lack of DPS.

If ZOS insists on many encounters involving an enrage phase or any other DPS-check, please give us training dummies to practice our rotations.

you only need to sustain a [constant] of 14k dps for 8 dd in ver maw. but you have to do this while following mechanics. when you don't have to you can run 50k dps, (it helps, a ton), people can't just be running around the room or dying because they failed the mechanics. This is where alot of people fail the dps checks. Not becai]use they can't pull the numbers shey need to, but because they aren't

14k dps is achievab;e with every single player in the game, (unless you're missing hands/fingers)

hedna123b14_ESO · July 2016

jknight201 wrote: »

@Wrobel

The normal trials (nSO and nMOL) seem to be about the right level of difficulty. A random group with little to no experience will struggle to get through the trial, but they can if they keep trying. An experienced group with maybe half random people can get through it with a little difficulty. An experienced group can easy-button through it with little effort. It may not be a whole lot of fun, but at least it's good loot (at least for SO and MOL).

My problem is with the veteran versions. There is a *huge* increase in difficulty from normal to veteran mode. Normal SO is a complete walk-in-the-park but vSO is very challenging. Most experienced groups can't complete it, while the elite groups seem to have little problem. Normal MOL is fairly easy for an experienced group, but in vMOL the same experienced groups can't get past the first boss, or rarely the second. There are only a few elite groups that have been able to even complete vMOL. After trying HRC on the PTS, it looks like Zos is going to do the same thing with AA and HRC.

Is Zos really so out of touch with the player base that they have weekly leaderboard trials (vMOL) that only, maybe 20 people TOTAL are capable of completing? What's even the point? Just mail those people the rewards because nobody else is able to go after them. And veteran hard mode is worse still.

It seems to me that veteran mode should be difficult but not impossible to complete for an experienced group. Veteran hard mode should be difficult for an elite group. I think Zos needs to close the difficulty gap between normal and veteran modes and then adjust (if necessary) veteran hard mode so than only a few elites can complete that. That or put the normal versions on the leaderboards - what's the point of having a trial on the leaderboards that 0.0001% of the player base can even finish?

All group of 3 people went into vAA and killed the atro in 15-20 minutes....what difficulty are you talking about? Got Rakotu to 8% but tornados killed us..

Ep1kMalware · July 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

@Wrobel

The normal trials (nSO and nMOL) seem to be about the right level of difficulty. A random group with little to no experience will struggle to get through the trial, but they can if they keep trying. An experienced group with maybe half random people can get through it with a little difficulty. An experienced group can easy-button through it with little effort. It may not be a whole lot of fun, but at least it's good loot (at least for SO and MOL).

My problem is with the veteran versions. There is a *huge* increase in difficulty from normal to veteran mode. Normal SO is a complete walk-in-the-park but vSO is very challenging. Most experienced groups can't complete it, while the elite groups seem to have little problem. Normal MOL is fairly easy for an experienced group, but in vMOL the same experienced groups can't get past the first boss, or rarely the second. There are only a few elite groups that have been able to even complete vMOL. After trying HRC on the PTS, it looks like Zos is going to do the same thing with AA and HRC.

Is Zos really so out of touch with the player base that they have weekly leaderboard trials (vMOL) that only, maybe 20 people TOTAL are capable of completing? What's even the point? Just mail those people the rewards because nobody else is able to go after them. And veteran hard mode is worse still.

It seems to me that veteran mode should be difficult but not impossible to complete for an experienced group. Veteran hard mode should be difficult for an elite group. I think Zos needs to close the difficulty gap between normal and veteran modes and then adjust (if necessary) veteran hard mode so than only a few elites can complete that. That or put the normal versions on the leaderboards - what's the point of having a trial on the leaderboards that 0.0001% of the player base can even finish?

All group of 3 people went into vAA and killed the atro in 15-20 minutes....what difficulty are you talking about? Got Rakotu to 8% but tornados killed us..

to expand:

boo,hoo,hoo...
vet sanctum is just sanctum ohpidia from before the update. it's just scaled. But upda trial means lazies will hear about it and immediately demand it be redi]esigned specifically for them, cuz *** everybody else.

At least zos thought ahead and made a boohoohoo version for boohoohoo'ers. Normal is susposed to be easy, amd atm ir]t;s the most profitable because of all the decently priced gear.

then they have an updated old version with no distinct advantages other than the droo table being flipped (less muneh foe many), amd a leaderboard to show other players thhow leet they are.

the massive difference is pure;y to give 'work for nothing' boohoohoo'ers something as well. This was probably inspired by everyone demanding maelstrom weapi=ons form nmsa becai=use a few people are compotent enough to light attack a couple adds and bosses.

They did it right this time.Hell, you basically get showered with loot foe just showing up. vso = old so, mechanics are the same.

Destruent · July 2016

Seems like people mostly agree, that we need more medium difficulty content ingame and not only extremely easy and really hard content

Lets just hope, ZOS is listening to us....