Thoughts on difficulty level of new trials (vSO, MOL and soon vHRC and vAA)

jknight201

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

lololol this is so much qq. you know how to beat hm helra? block. how you know when to block? you're standing in red. I can't even xD haha damn.

manticora is hard? why does the 3 second wind up for it's overcharge jot clue you in? how about the 2 popcorn phases, then red aoe you block, oops here comes a portal! if your raid leader can't recall the mechanics, then k=maybe the huge ass ghost floating around will clue you in.

this is 100% qq from bad playing. and nothing else.

edit:

most players are incredibly dumb with mehanics and refuse to learn them, no matter how a=simple they are. Planar inhibitor anybody?

this is why you have a good raid leader that tells you exactly where to stand, exactly when to ,move forward, exactly when to block, and kicks you from the group when you talk more than you listen.

The secret to HRC HM is blocking? Wow, speaking of people who don't understand the mechanics... So you think most non-tanks can block all the shield throws? Or the leap mechanic? While adds are out or you're already low health or stam? Just block starfall? Or the cleave? And of course the red telegraph is always in the right place, is never a little off where the damage actually falls, is never not shown because of settings or graphics bugs, is never obscured by other things on screen and is clearly visible at all times and never appears late? If you think HRC HM mechanics = block then it's *you* who clearly doesn't understand.

Block on the manti charge ... really? Because it's not like anyone's game has ever lagged out or just not been responsive to a block. And of course nobody has ever run out of stamina trying to move away from popcorn, or accidentally dodgerolled to get away and brought it to someone else. And if you have some way of knowing in advance where the portal will land then please let the rest of the player base know.

Sounds like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Sometimes things happen and even good groups wipe because of randomness in the mechanics. Is that QQ as well? You've never been in a group that wiped? And when you were, then that must have been a L2P issue, right?

The problem we're discussing is that there isn't a gradual increase in difficulty. The fact that some of the trials have random mechanics that can cause *any* group to wipe if RNG luck isn't with them is another issue entirely.

Destruent

jknight201 wrote: »

The secret to HRC HM is blocking? Wow, speaking of people who don't understand the mechanics... So you think most non-tanks can block all the shield throws? Or the leap mechanic? While adds are out or you're already low health or stam? Just block starfall? Or the cleave? And of course the red telegraph is always in the right place, is never a little off where the damage actually falls, is never not shown because of settings or graphics bugs, is never obscured by other things on screen and is clearly visible at all times and never appears late? If you think HRC HM mechanics = block then it's *you* who clearly doesn't understand.

Everyone can survive Red AoEs in HRC-HM with blocking, even our 7/7 light armor 17k HP healer. When Adds are up it can be dangerous (those twohander-guys deal lots of dmg) but it can be avoided completely...just walk out of red aoes (or chain the add while he is charging his attack, this will interrupt it)...
The Red telegraph works, as long as you don't dodge. The game doesn't register your position while dodging, only start and endposition. So while odging you get still hit from aoes on your old position.

jknight201 wrote: »

Block on the manti charge ... really? Because it's not like anyone's game has ever lagged out or just not been responsive to a block. And of course nobody has ever run out of stamina trying to move away from popcorn, or accidentally dodgerolled to get away and brought it to someone else. And if you have some way of knowing in advance where the portal will land then please let the rest of the player base know.

Simple l2play issue...you have to manage your stamina so you can block the stomp. That's not the mechanics fault. Noone knows where the portal lands, but you can make sure that either only one (spread out) or noone (run away) gets charged into it. This is common knowledge and shown in youtube videos.

Even good groups are wiping, but know what? We are not qq-ing on the forums, but trying to understand the mechanics and finding ways how to deal with it. And yes, that's what we call l2p. When something is going extremely wrong, someone/the group did a fault and will get tips how to avid this. That's part of the improving and getting better.

lolo_01b16_ESO

jknight201 wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

While I'm glad you were able to complete all that content, the VAST majority of ESO players ... simply can't.

Sorry but vMOL *is* very hard. Maybe a couple dozen people in the whole game can complete it? And it's not hard? No, just no. People switch off because they can't even get past the first damage shield of the first boss and then they stop trying. If they can even get to the first boss.

vSO - great, take the hardest trial in the game, one in which 99%+ of players can't get past the first boss and ... make it even harder! With a bunch of insta-kill mechanics! Great job Zos. Same thing, the vast majority of even somewhat good players can't get past the Manti. Totally agree that normal SO is a joke it's so easy. vSO ... is a joke because it's so hard. Not difficult (which would imply good mechanics and good gameplay) just ... hard.

Hel Ra HM is another that most players can't get past. Combine a bunch of 1-shot insta-kills with a HUGE add pull you have to have everyone up for AND perfect timing on mits ... and then they go and make it even harder? Again, wtf is Zos thinking? 100M+ health?

AA HM is arguably the easiest of the trials, but add in the 3rd boss causing crashing for a LOT of players and suddenly it gets hard. Combine that with, again, an end-game that the majority of players can't finish and, yet again, what is Zos thinking?

You need less than 10k dps to get through the first shield in vMoL which every class can get by just spamming a single skill. Depending on your cp and gear you can probably even get that by using nothing but light and heavy attacks.

In your opinion what's the difference between hard and difficult? From what I see if you have good movement the fights are easy and just take a while to complete. If you have issues it's most likely because you either don't know what to do (then just ask for help, most experienced players are happy to help new people to learn how to beat trials) or you need to practise your movement.

Another example of you not knowing the proper tactic but only the way how people used to do it when they had enough dps to ignore the mechanics. You can destroy most of the gargoyles before they engage the fight, it just requires good positioning from every group member.

Crashing has nothing to do with difficulty. If you can't complete content because of crashes, then you should write a bug report to fix crashes and not argue about reducing the difficulty so you can comlete it even if half your group is offline. (btw it seems to be the case that if anyone in your group uses the "travel to player" option to enter a trial, crashes happen much more frequently)

I got a good laugh at your "you need 10K dps to get past the first vMOL boss shield phase". I'm sorry, but if you believe that then you haven't actually gotten to the first boss in vMOL. Or you haven't played with a group that does 10K dps. We have a group average DPS of 25K+ and it's enough only if everything goes perfectly and is questionable if it's enough to get past the overall dps check with the pillar phase.

The difference between normal and veteran? Nearly all the mechanics from veteran are disabled in normal (big mistake) - so every fight becomes stack-and-burn. In veteran mode everything has much higher health and does much higher damage - often insanely so.

And we know the proper tactics, but that won't save you in vMOL. It won't even let you get past the first boss, which *is* largely stack-and-burn. Same with AA hard mode. Same with vSO (with small exception for the outer and portal groups).

I've been with experienced players and we weren't able to complete some content because of RNG. Namely AA hard mode, HRC hard mode and vSO manti. Was it because one or two people weren't pulling their weight? Maybe, but all the players were good and sometimes it just happens that way. That is a big part of the problem.

The first shield has 1.6mio hp and you can outheal the damage for at least 20 sec.
So 1 600 000 hp / 9 dds = 177 777
177 777 / 20sec = 8889 dps
The second shield has 2.4 mio hp, so
2 400 000 / 9 = 266 666
266 666 / 20 sec = 13.3k dps
The boss has 45mio hp if you include both shields and you have about 8min to kill him, so
45 000 000 / 9 = 5 000 000
5 000 000 / 480 sec = 10.5k dps

So if everyone does 11k dps on the boss on average and can spike for 13.5k dps during the second shield phase you shouldn't have a problem with the fight as long as people know how to move and stay alive. The cats should mostly die to aoe damage from your ultimates, endless hail, wall of elements, erruption, lightning splash, biting jabs, ... so I didn't include them in my calculation.
If you can't do this boss and people claim to do 25k dps on average your tactic and movement are either very bad or people are telling lies about their dps.

Seri

It seems there's a standoff between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' here, which has been interesting read.

As has been pointed out, being told to simply get better / learn mechanics, because they're easy is not going to help as it comes across as condescending. Meanwhile there are those who want to improve but have nowhere to improve on. vMoL is not a decent training ground as you need 12 people together, but there really isn't very much else that can help refine a group. vICP and vWGT got nerfed too far to be useful, vMA isn't really suitable, and normal version trials don't take much group discipline and coordination.

Normal modes are so ridiculously easy to roflstomp for the mid-tier groups and players can come out of that thinking 'hey, that wasn't too bad', think they're ready for vet only to find both new mechanics to learn and adjust to, as well as the extra boss HP and damage and get wiped before the first boss is even at 50%

This is partly due to the game itself - most of it is a single player game in open world and ZOS wants the tanks or healers of the world to still be able to do things. Lower level dungeons need to handle the lower skill access of players but the vet/CP ranked ones should be harder to provide a base point. I remember the first time going into vet Fungal and the entire group wiping at the first trash pull (we were all around VR6). None of us stayed long but I certainly left that thinking about what gear I should be wearing to complete it and paying a bit more attention to sets I was wearing.

Gradual nerfs have resulted in an easy base game then cliff face to reach vMoL. I don't consider myself top tier (and don't have a top tier end game PvE guild yet), yet can see I'm vastly ahead of much of the population. I dreaded the random vet dungeon finder (at least until the ICP/WGT/CoA nerfs in DB). I've argued with people in Wrothgar that the world bosses there really don't need 12+ people to complete, and our group of 4 is more than enough (in b4 'I've solo'd those' posts - I have too). Ultimately beyond being told that 'oh, that's end game' there is nothing to prepare or practice to reach a 'serious' end game level, nor any reason to expect that jump.

</walloftext>

TL;DR: WTB middle-tier content, but please ZOS don't add it by nerfing the top stuff. One day I strive to beat the current vMoL, not a watered down version.

Ep1kMalware

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

lololol this is so much qq. you know how to beat hm helra? block. how you know when to block? you're standing in red. I can't even xD haha damn.

manticora is hard? why does the 3 second wind up for it's overcharge jot clue you in? how about the 2 popcorn phases, then red aoe you block, oops here comes a portal! if your raid leader can't recall the mechanics, then k=maybe the huge ass ghost floating around will clue you in.

this is 100% qq from bad playing. and nothing else.

edit:

most players are incredibly dumb with mehanics and refuse to learn them, no matter how a=simple they are. Planar inhibitor anybody?

this is why you have a good raid leader that tells you exactly where to stand, exactly when to ,move forward, exactly when to block, and kicks you from the group when you talk more than you listen.

The secret to HRC HM is blocking? Wow, speaking of people who don't understand the mechanics... So you think most non-tanks can block all the shield throws? Or the leap mechanic? While adds are out or you're already low health or stam? Just block starfall? Or the cleave? And of course the red telegraph is always in the right place, is never a little off where the damage actually falls, is never not shown because of settings or graphics bugs, is never obscured by other things on screen and is clearly visible at all times and never appears late? If you think HRC HM mechanics = block then it's *you* who clearly doesn't understand.

Block on the manti charge ... really? Because it's not like anyone's game has ever lagged out or just not been responsive to a block. And of course nobody has ever run out of stamina trying to move away from popcorn, or accidentally dodgerolled to get away and brought it to someone else. And if you have some way of knowing in advance where the portal will land then please let the rest of the player base know.

Sounds like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Sometimes things happen and even good groups wipe because of randomness in the mechanics. Is that QQ as well? You've never been in a group that wiped? And when you were, then that must have been a L2P issue, right?

The problem we're discussing is that there isn't a gradual increase in difficulty. The fact that some of the trials have random mechanics that can cause *any* group to wipe if RNG luck isn't with them is another issue entirely.

just got #6 score for hel ra. nobody died, we blocked. looks like it's YOU who's part of the problem. blaming failing mechanics on the game. heh

(btw we blocked, workes well)

Shadesofkin

Seri wrote: »

It seems there's a standoff between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' here, which has been interesting read.

The problem is that in many ways, the have nots aren't willing to accept that they're have nots. They refuse to admit they just aren't as good as other players and think they're entitled to the best when they aren't putting in the same level of skill and effort as the guys who are beating it regularly. Sorry, but wasting your time wiping isn't the same as completing it, you don't get to have a trophy. Just because you spent three hours wiping on Mantikora and maybe the Troll boss, doesn't mean you put the same effort in as I did in completing it in an hour (in fact I'd argue you put in a lot less since you can't do it).

I completed Veteran Maelstrom on a Magicka DK without any maelstrom weapons, right before it was changed to a save mechanic, it took me three hours. I did it without ever learning it on any other class (all 8 toons are dks) I completed Veteran Sanctum after the change and I completed it on Hm before the change by taking time and learning the mechanics, learning to see the signs of the quake on me, knowing where the shards were, knowing that I shouldn't be attacking a boss if half my darn group is dead. Pulling pins, listening to the tank count down the world shaper and moving when he said to move.

I will do the same with Vet Maw. Get over yourselves and admit that there's a really good chance that if you don't stink, someone in your trial group does and is dragging all of you down.

hedna123b14_ESO

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

While I'm glad you were able to complete all that content, the VAST majority of ESO players ... simply can't.

Sorry but vMOL *is* very hard. Maybe a couple dozen people in the whole game can complete it? And it's not hard? No, just no. People switch off because they can't even get past the first damage shield of the first boss and then they stop trying. If they can even get to the first boss.

vSO - great, take the hardest trial in the game, one in which 99%+ of players can't get past the first boss and ... make it even harder! With a bunch of insta-kill mechanics! Great job Zos. Same thing, the vast majority of even somewhat good players can't get past the Manti. Totally agree that normal SO is a joke it's so easy. vSO ... is a joke because it's so hard. Not difficult (which would imply good mechanics and good gameplay) just ... hard.

Hel Ra HM is another that most players can't get past. Combine a bunch of 1-shot insta-kills with a HUGE add pull you have to have everyone up for AND perfect timing on mits ... and then they go and make it even harder? Again, wtf is Zos thinking? 100M+ health?

AA HM is arguably the easiest of the trials, but add in the 3rd boss causing crashing for a LOT of players and suddenly it gets hard. Combine that with, again, an end-game that the majority of players can't finish and, yet again, what is Zos thinking?

You need less than 10k dps to get through the first shield in vMoL which every class can get by just spamming a single skill. Depending on your cp and gear you can probably even get that by using nothing but light and heavy attacks.

In your opinion what's the difference between hard and difficult? From what I see if you have good movement the fights are easy and just take a while to complete. If you have issues it's most likely because you either don't know what to do (then just ask for help, most experienced players are happy to help new people to learn how to beat trials) or you need to practise your movement.

Another example of you not knowing the proper tactic but only the way how people used to do it when they had enough dps to ignore the mechanics. You can destroy most of the gargoyles before they engage the fight, it just requires good positioning from every group member.

Crashing has nothing to do with difficulty. If you can't complete content because of crashes, then you should write a bug report to fix crashes and not argue about reducing the difficulty so you can comlete it even if half your group is offline. (btw it seems to be the case that if anyone in your group uses the "travel to player" option to enter a trial, crashes happen much more frequently)

I got a good laugh at your "you need 10K dps to get past the first vMOL boss shield phase". I'm sorry, but if you believe that then you haven't actually gotten to the first boss in vMOL. Or you haven't played with a group that does 10K dps. We have a group average DPS of 25K+ and it's enough only if everything goes perfectly and is questionable if it's enough to get past the overall dps check with the pillar phase.

The difference between normal and veteran? Nearly all the mechanics from veteran are disabled in normal (big mistake) - so every fight becomes stack-and-burn. In veteran mode everything has much higher health and does much higher damage - often insanely so.

And we know the proper tactics, but that won't save you in vMOL. It won't even let you get past the first boss, which *is* largely stack-and-burn. Same with AA hard mode. Same with vSO (with small exception for the outer and portal groups).

I've been with experienced players and we weren't able to complete some content because of RNG. Namely AA hard mode, HRC hard mode and vSO manti. Was it because one or two people weren't pulling their weight? Maybe, but all the players were good and sometimes it just happens that way. That is a big part of the problem.

The first shield has 1.6mio hp and you can outheal the damage for at least 20 sec.
So 1 600 000 hp / 9 dds = 177 777
177 777 / 20sec = 8889 dps
The second shield has 2.4 mio hp, so
2 400 000 / 9 = 266 666
266 666 / 20 sec = 13.3k dps
The boss has 45mio hp if you include both shields and you have about 8min to kill him, so
45 000 000 / 9 = 5 000 000
5 000 000 / 480 sec = 10.5k dps

So if everyone does 11k dps on the boss on average and can spike for 13.5k dps during the second shield phase you shouldn't have a problem with the fight as long as people know how to move and stay alive. The cats should mostly die to aoe damage from your ultimates, endless hail, wall of elements, erruption, lightning splash, biting jabs, ... so I didn't include them in my calculation.
If you can't do this boss and people claim to do 25k dps on average your tactic and movement are either very bad or people are telling lies about their dps.

Damm! That math don't lie though:)

Wolfkeks

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

While I'm glad you were able to complete all that content, the VAST majority of ESO players ... simply can't.

Sorry but vMOL *is* very hard. Maybe a couple dozen people in the whole game can complete it? And it's not hard? No, just no. People switch off because they can't even get past the first damage shield of the first boss and then they stop trying. If they can even get to the first boss.

vSO - great, take the hardest trial in the game, one in which 99%+ of players can't get past the first boss and ... make it even harder! With a bunch of insta-kill mechanics! Great job Zos. Same thing, the vast majority of even somewhat good players can't get past the Manti. Totally agree that normal SO is a joke it's so easy. vSO ... is a joke because it's so hard. Not difficult (which would imply good mechanics and good gameplay) just ... hard.

Hel Ra HM is another that most players can't get past. Combine a bunch of 1-shot insta-kills with a HUGE add pull you have to have everyone up for AND perfect timing on mits ... and then they go and make it even harder? Again, wtf is Zos thinking? 100M+ health?

AA HM is arguably the easiest of the trials, but add in the 3rd boss causing crashing for a LOT of players and suddenly it gets hard. Combine that with, again, an end-game that the majority of players can't finish and, yet again, what is Zos thinking?

You need less than 10k dps to get through the first shield in vMoL which every class can get by just spamming a single skill. Depending on your cp and gear you can probably even get that by using nothing but light and heavy attacks.

In your opinion what's the difference between hard and difficult? From what I see if you have good movement the fights are easy and just take a while to complete. If you have issues it's most likely because you either don't know what to do (then just ask for help, most experienced players are happy to help new people to learn how to beat trials) or you need to practise your movement.

Another example of you not knowing the proper tactic but only the way how people used to do it when they had enough dps to ignore the mechanics. You can destroy most of the gargoyles before they engage the fight, it just requires good positioning from every group member.

Crashing has nothing to do with difficulty. If you can't complete content because of crashes, then you should write a bug report to fix crashes and not argue about reducing the difficulty so you can comlete it even if half your group is offline. (btw it seems to be the case that if anyone in your group uses the "travel to player" option to enter a trial, crashes happen much more frequently)

I got a good laugh at your "you need 10K dps to get past the first vMOL boss shield phase". I'm sorry, but if you believe that then you haven't actually gotten to the first boss in vMOL. Or you haven't played with a group that does 10K dps. We have a group average DPS of 25K+ and it's enough only if everything goes perfectly and is questionable if it's enough to get past the overall dps check with the pillar phase.

The difference between normal and veteran? Nearly all the mechanics from veteran are disabled in normal (big mistake) - so every fight becomes stack-and-burn. In veteran mode everything has much higher health and does much higher damage - often insanely so.

And we know the proper tactics, but that won't save you in vMOL. It won't even let you get past the first boss, which *is* largely stack-and-burn. Same with AA hard mode. Same with vSO (with small exception for the outer and portal groups).

I've been with experienced players and we weren't able to complete some content because of RNG. Namely AA hard mode, HRC hard mode and vSO manti. Was it because one or two people weren't pulling their weight? Maybe, but all the players were good and sometimes it just happens that way. That is a big part of the problem.

The first shield has 1.6mio hp and you can outheal the damage for at least 20 sec.
So 1 600 000 hp / 9 dds = 177 777
177 777 / 20sec = 8889 dps
The second shield has 2.4 mio hp, so
2 400 000 / 9 = 266 666
266 666 / 20 sec = 13.3k dps
The boss has 45mio hp if you include both shields and you have about 8min to kill him, so
45 000 000 / 9 = 5 000 000
5 000 000 / 480 sec = 10.5k dps

So if everyone does 11k dps on the boss on average and can spike for 13.5k dps during the second shield phase you shouldn't have a problem with the fight as long as people know how to move and stay alive. The cats should mostly die to aoe damage from your ultimates, endless hail, wall of elements, erruption, lightning splash, biting jabs, ... so I didn't include them in my calculation.
If you can't do this boss and people claim to do 25k dps on average your tactic and movement are either very bad or people are telling lies about their dps.

You wanna do my math exam
Yep, this is really helpful mate!

code65536

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

It seems there's a standoff between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' here, which has been interesting read.

The problem is that in many ways, the have nots aren't willing to accept that they're have nots. They refuse to admit they just aren't as good as other players and think they're entitled to the best when they aren't putting in the same level of skill and effort as the guys who are beating it regularly. Sorry, but wasting your time wiping isn't the same as completing it, you don't get to have a trophy. Just because you spent three hours wiping on Mantikora and maybe the Troll boss, doesn't mean you put the same effort in as I did in completing it in an hour (in fact I'd argue you put in a lot less since you can't do it).

I completed Veteran Maelstrom on a Magicka DK without any maelstrom weapons, right before it was changed to a save mechanic, it took me three hours. I did it without ever learning it on any other class (all 8 toons are dks) I completed Veteran Sanctum after the change and I completed it on Hm before the change by taking time and learning the mechanics, learning to see the signs of the quake on me, knowing where the shards were, knowing that I shouldn't be attacking a boss if half my darn group is dead. Pulling pins, listening to the tank count down the world shaper and moving when he said to move.

I will do the same with Vet Maw. Get over yourselves and admit that there's a really good chance that if you don't stink, someone in your trial group does and is dragging all of you down.

Every time a thread like this pops up, it seems like people just talk over each other and devolve it into a childish us-vs-them thing.

1. There is a wide chasm between normal and veteran for a number of pieces of content. Additionally, "veteran" is very inconsistent, meaning very different things depending on whether you're talking about MoL or Wayrest Sewers. This, I think we can all agree with, no?
2. It's easier for people to "get good" if they have a series of steps to climb, instead of expecting everyone to scale a sheer cliff. The overall difficulty balancing of this game, where the easy content does little to prepare people and a lack of middle-ground content makes it difficult--not impossible, of course--for people to "get good". This, I think we can all agree with, no?
3. Different people have different ideas of what's enjoyable. I spent hours each week, for many weeks, to get my vMoL clear. I'm okay with doing that, and the exhilaration of getting that clear was worth it. But that's me. I'm fully aware that the vast majority of people would look at that and think that I'm insane to have gone through that. For many people, that sort of thing just isn't fun/relaxing/entertaining. Step into their shoes and remember that this is, first and foremost, a game. It's supposed to be entertaining, and there is a point where a challenge turns from "enjoyable" into "laborious", from "fun" into "work". Different people have different tipping points, and it would do people well to remember that. Just because I can still find vMoL fun after weeks of wiping and learning doesn't mean that people who don't are somehow lazy or inferior, and I do not have the arrogance to dictate to them how they should have their fun. At the same time, though, I would like for them to respect our desire for a challenge as much as I respect and am sympathetic to their notion that too extreme of a challenge saps the fun out of a game.

Ultimately, the game needs a wider spectrum of difficulty. So that it's possible to have more consistent modes. So that there's a better path for "get good" progression, and so that the game caters to a large majority of players who are competent, but who also don't put in that extra effort, not because they are lazy bums, but because they don't want a game to feel like work.

Ep1kMalware

code65536 wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

It seems there's a standoff between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' here, which has been interesting read.

The problem is that in many ways, the have nots aren't willing to accept that they're have nots. They refuse to admit they just aren't as good as other players and think they're entitled to the best when they aren't putting in the same level of skill and effort as the guys who are beating it regularly. Sorry, but wasting your time wiping isn't the same as completing it, you don't get to have a trophy. Just because you spent three hours wiping on Mantikora and maybe the Troll boss, doesn't mean you put the same effort in as I did in completing it in an hour (in fact I'd argue you put in a lot less since you can't do it).

I completed Veteran Maelstrom on a Magicka DK without any maelstrom weapons, right before it was changed to a save mechanic, it took me three hours. I did it without ever learning it on any other class (all 8 toons are dks) I completed Veteran Sanctum after the change and I completed it on Hm before the change by taking time and learning the mechanics, learning to see the signs of the quake on me, knowing where the shards were, knowing that I shouldn't be attacking a boss if half my darn group is dead. Pulling pins, listening to the tank count down the world shaper and moving when he said to move.

I will do the same with Vet Maw. Get over yourselves and admit that there's a really good chance that if you don't stink, someone in your trial group does and is dragging all of you down.

Every time a thread like this pops up, it seems like people just talk over each other and devolve it into a childish us-vs-them thing.

1. There is a wide chasm between normal and veteran for a number of pieces of content. Additionally, "veteran" is very inconsistent, meaning very different things depending on whether you're talking about MoL or Wayrest Sewers. This, I think we can all agree with, no?
2. It's easier for people to "get good" if they have a series of steps to climb, instead of expecting everyone to scale a sheer cliff. The overall difficulty balancing of this game, where the easy content does little to prepare people and a lack of middle-ground content makes it difficult--not impossible, of course--for people to "get good". This, I think we can all agree with, no?
3. Different people have different ideas of what's enjoyable. I spent hours each week, for many weeks, to get my vMoL clear. I'm okay with doing that, and the exhilaration of getting that clear was worth it. But that's me. I'm fully aware that the vast majority of people would look at that and think that I'm insane to have gone through that. For many people, that sort of thing just isn't fun/relaxing/entertaining. Step into their shoes and remember that this is, first and foremost, a game. It's supposed to be entertaining, and there is a point where a challenge turns from "enjoyable" into "laborious", from "fun" into "work". Different people have different tipping points, and it would do people well to remember that. Just because I can still find vMoL fun after weeks of wiping and learning doesn't mean that people who don't are somehow lazy or inferior, and I do not have the arrogance to dictate to them how they should have their fun. At the same time, though, I would like for them to respect our desire for a challenge as much as I respect and am sympathetic to their notion that too extreme of a challenge saps the fun out of a game.

Ultimately, the game needs a wider spectrum of difficulty. So that it's possible to have more consistent modes. So that there's a better path for "get good" progression, and so that the game caters to a large majority of players who are competent, but who also don't put in that extra effort, not because they are lazy bums, but because they don't want a game to feel like work.

we have that now. There's no huge advantagw to clearinf vet modes besides shiny titles saying 'look what I can do!'. Some people want that for free. Only problem.

otherwise there's lots of content for everybody, and lots motere comming. SO has been around for a very, very lonf time, and so have these other trials. They havent changed, many heard about rhe change and never bothered getr=tinf the practice in. thwy apperantlt have forum access if they can come here to cry about it. Why can't they gor play the other 99% of the game (and that includes the normal versions for those wanting the gear)

hedna123b14_ESO

code65536 wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

It seems there's a standoff between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' here, which has been interesting read.

The problem is that in many ways, the have nots aren't willing to accept that they're have nots. They refuse to admit they just aren't as good as other players and think they're entitled to the best when they aren't putting in the same level of skill and effort as the guys who are beating it regularly. Sorry, but wasting your time wiping isn't the same as completing it, you don't get to have a trophy. Just because you spent three hours wiping on Mantikora and maybe the Troll boss, doesn't mean you put the same effort in as I did in completing it in an hour (in fact I'd argue you put in a lot less since you can't do it).

I completed Veteran Maelstrom on a Magicka DK without any maelstrom weapons, right before it was changed to a save mechanic, it took me three hours. I did it without ever learning it on any other class (all 8 toons are dks) I completed Veteran Sanctum after the change and I completed it on Hm before the change by taking time and learning the mechanics, learning to see the signs of the quake on me, knowing where the shards were, knowing that I shouldn't be attacking a boss if half my darn group is dead. Pulling pins, listening to the tank count down the world shaper and moving when he said to move.

I will do the same with Vet Maw. Get over yourselves and admit that there's a really good chance that if you don't stink, someone in your trial group does and is dragging all of you down.

Every time a thread like this pops up, it seems like people just talk over each other and devolve it into a childish us-vs-them thing.

1. There is a wide chasm between normal and veteran for a number of pieces of content. Additionally, "veteran" is very inconsistent, meaning very different things depending on whether you're talking about MoL or Wayrest Sewers. This, I think we can all agree with, no?
2. It's easier for people to "get good" if they have a series of steps to climb, instead of expecting everyone to scale a sheer cliff. The overall difficulty balancing of this game, where the easy content does little to prepare people and a lack of middle-ground content makes it difficult--not impossible, of course--for people to "get good". This, I think we can all agree with, no?
3. Different people have different ideas of what's enjoyable. I spent hours each week, for many weeks, to get my vMoL clear. I'm okay with doing that, and the exhilaration of getting that clear was worth it. But that's me. I'm fully aware that the vast majority of people would look at that and think that I'm insane to have gone through that. For many people, that sort of thing just isn't fun/relaxing/entertaining. Step into their shoes and remember that this is, first and foremost, a game. It's supposed to be entertaining, and there is a point where a challenge turns from "enjoyable" into "laborious", from "fun" into "work". Different people have different tipping points, and it would do people well to remember that. Just because I can still find vMoL fun after weeks of wiping and learning doesn't mean that people who don't are somehow lazy or inferior, and I do not have the arrogance to dictate to them how they should have their fun. At the same time, though, I would like for them to respect our desire for a challenge as much as I respect and am sympathetic to their notion that too extreme of a challenge saps the fun out of a game.

Ultimately, the game needs a wider spectrum of difficulty. So that it's possible to have more consistent modes. So that there's a better path for "get good" progression, and so that the game caters to a large majority of players who are competent, but who also don't put in that extra effort, not because they are lazy bums, but because they don't want a game to feel like work.

Very well put.

code65536

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

we have that now. There's no huge advantagw to clearinf vet modes besides shiny titles saying 'look what I can do!'. Some people want that for free. Only problem.

otherwise there's lots of content for everybody, and lots motere comming. SO has been around for a very, very lonf time, and so have these other trials. They havent changed, many heard about rhe change and never bothered getr=tinf the practice in. thwy apperantlt have forum access if they can come here to cry about it. Why can't they gor play the other 99% of the game (and that includes the normal versions for those wanting the gear)

No, we don't have that. And it would do you well to not assume so much about what people want. Yes, sometimes I run content for gear. But most of the time, I run content for fun. And I suspect a lot of people do too. Many want a challenge, but not one so extreme that they cannot complete it or that the work needed to complete it turns a game into a job.

And, no, there is very little middle ground. It really shouldn't be that hard to make an intermediate difficulty of MoL for the people who are tired of stroll through normal in 20 minutes with no regards to mechanics but who can't devote weeks of time to learn vet.

The game desperately needs an intermediate difficulty, and it astounds me there are people who are so self-absorbed that they are in denial of this. I absolutely don't want nerfs--and the best way to protect content from nerfing is to have a more robust difficulty spectrum that caters to the large "middle class" in this game so that there won't be any reason or justification for nerfs at the top end.

hedna123b14_ESO

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

It seems there's a standoff between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' here, which has been interesting read.

The problem is that in many ways, the have nots aren't willing to accept that they're have nots. They refuse to admit they just aren't as good as other players and think they're entitled to the best when they aren't putting in the same level of skill and effort as the guys who are beating it regularly. Sorry, but wasting your time wiping isn't the same as completing it, you don't get to have a trophy. Just because you spent three hours wiping on Mantikora and maybe the Troll boss, doesn't mean you put the same effort in as I did in completing it in an hour (in fact I'd argue you put in a lot less since you can't do it).

I completed Veteran Maelstrom on a Magicka DK without any maelstrom weapons, right before it was changed to a save mechanic, it took me three hours. I did it without ever learning it on any other class (all 8 toons are dks) I completed Veteran Sanctum after the change and I completed it on Hm before the change by taking time and learning the mechanics, learning to see the signs of the quake on me, knowing where the shards were, knowing that I shouldn't be attacking a boss if half my darn group is dead. Pulling pins, listening to the tank count down the world shaper and moving when he said to move.

I will do the same with Vet Maw. Get over yourselves and admit that there's a really good chance that if you don't stink, someone in your trial group does and is dragging all of you down.

Every time a thread like this pops up, it seems like people just talk over each other and devolve it into a childish us-vs-them thing.

1. There is a wide chasm between normal and veteran for a number of pieces of content. Additionally, "veteran" is very inconsistent, meaning very different things depending on whether you're talking about MoL or Wayrest Sewers. This, I think we can all agree with, no?
2. It's easier for people to "get good" if they have a series of steps to climb, instead of expecting everyone to scale a sheer cliff. The overall difficulty balancing of this game, where the easy content does little to prepare people and a lack of middle-ground content makes it difficult--not impossible, of course--for people to "get good". This, I think we can all agree with, no?
3. Different people have different ideas of what's enjoyable. I spent hours each week, for many weeks, to get my vMoL clear. I'm okay with doing that, and the exhilaration of getting that clear was worth it. But that's me. I'm fully aware that the vast majority of people would look at that and think that I'm insane to have gone through that. For many people, that sort of thing just isn't fun/relaxing/entertaining. Step into their shoes and remember that this is, first and foremost, a game. It's supposed to be entertaining, and there is a point where a challenge turns from "enjoyable" into "laborious", from "fun" into "work". Different people have different tipping points, and it would do people well to remember that. Just because I can still find vMoL fun after weeks of wiping and learning doesn't mean that people who don't are somehow lazy or inferior, and I do not have the arrogance to dictate to them how they should have their fun. At the same time, though, I would like for them to respect our desire for a challenge as much as I respect and am sympathetic to their notion that too extreme of a challenge saps the fun out of a game.

Ultimately, the game needs a wider spectrum of difficulty. So that it's possible to have more consistent modes. So that there's a better path for "get good" progression, and so that the game caters to a large majority of players who are competent, but who also don't put in that extra effort, not because they are lazy bums, but because they don't want a game to feel like work.

we have that now. There's no huge advantagw to clearinf vet modes besides shiny titles saying 'look what I can do!'. Some people want that for free. Only problem.

otherwise there's lots of content for everybody, and lots motere comming. SO has been around for a very, very lonf time, and so have these other trials. They havent changed, many heard about rhe change and never bothered getr=tinf the practice in. thwy apperantlt have forum access if they can come here to cry about it. Why can't they gor play the other 99% of the game (and that includes the normal versions for those wanting the gear)

While some trials are in fact easier than others gear sets are tied to specific trials. I think that there should be more difficulty options to have players build up your the actual content. For example if have never been in the normal version of Maelstrom Arena, because of the stigma associated with how easy the normalast mode is in this game. I went straight to vet.

jknight201

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

lololol this is so much qq. you know how to beat hm helra? block. how you know when to block? you're standing in red. I can't even xD haha damn.

manticora is hard? why does the 3 second wind up for it's overcharge jot clue you in? how about the 2 popcorn phases, then red aoe you block, oops here comes a portal! if your raid leader can't recall the mechanics, then k=maybe the huge ass ghost floating around will clue you in.

this is 100% qq from bad playing. and nothing else.

edit:

most players are incredibly dumb with mehanics and refuse to learn them, no matter how a=simple they are. Planar inhibitor anybody?

this is why you have a good raid leader that tells you exactly where to stand, exactly when to ,move forward, exactly when to block, and kicks you from the group when you talk more than you listen.

The secret to HRC HM is blocking? Wow, speaking of people who don't understand the mechanics... So you think most non-tanks can block all the shield throws? Or the leap mechanic? While adds are out or you're already low health or stam? Just block starfall? Or the cleave? And of course the red telegraph is always in the right place, is never a little off where the damage actually falls, is never not shown because of settings or graphics bugs, is never obscured by other things on screen and is clearly visible at all times and never appears late? If you think HRC HM mechanics = block then it's *you* who clearly doesn't understand.

Block on the manti charge ... really? Because it's not like anyone's game has ever lagged out or just not been responsive to a block. And of course nobody has ever run out of stamina trying to move away from popcorn, or accidentally dodgerolled to get away and brought it to someone else. And if you have some way of knowing in advance where the portal will land then please let the rest of the player base know.

Sounds like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Sometimes things happen and even good groups wipe because of randomness in the mechanics. Is that QQ as well? You've never been in a group that wiped? And when you were, then that must have been a L2P issue, right?

The problem we're discussing is that there isn't a gradual increase in difficulty. The fact that some of the trials have random mechanics that can cause *any* group to wipe if RNG luck isn't with them is another issue entirely.

just got #6 score for hel ra. nobody died, we blocked. looks like it's YOU who's part of the problem. blaming failing mechanics on the game. heh

(btw we blocked, workes well)

No, it's people like YOU who are the problem. You think that, because a specific method works for you, it therefore should work for everyone and if it doesn't, it's a L2P issue. I don't know if you're being honest about constant blocking working for you in HRC HM, if you're lying just to create drama or what - but I can tell you that in my 5-1-1 armor and with 17K health, if I have anything less than 100% health and 100% stam, I get killed when blocking the shield throw and the outer ring of the leap attack. So do several of our other dps and our healer.

We beat our heads against HRC HM for some time until we realized that idiots who say "just block through everything" are wrong - and when we tried dodging out of the attacks, we were finally able to solve it.

jknight201

code65536 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

we have that now. There's no huge advantagw to clearinf vet modes besides shiny titles saying 'look what I can do!'. Some people want that for free. Only problem.

otherwise there's lots of content for everybody, and lots motere comming. SO has been around for a very, very lonf time, and so have these other trials. They havent changed, many heard about rhe change and never bothered getr=tinf the practice in. thwy apperantlt have forum access if they can come here to cry about it. Why can't they gor play the other 99% of the game (and that includes the normal versions for those wanting the gear)

No, we don't have that. And it would do you well to not assume so much about what people want. Yes, sometimes I run content for gear. But most of the time, I run content for fun. And I suspect a lot of people do too. Many want a challenge, but not one so extreme that they cannot complete it or that the work needed to complete it turns a game into a job.

And, no, there is very little middle ground. It really shouldn't be that hard to make an intermediate difficulty of MoL for the people who are tired of stroll through normal in 20 minutes with no regards to mechanics but who can't devote weeks of time to learn vet.

The game desperately needs an intermediate difficulty, and it astounds me there are people who are so self-absorbed that they are in denial of this. I absolutely don't want nerfs--and the best way to protect content from nerfing is to have a more robust difficulty spectrum that caters to the large "middle class" in this game so that there won't be any reason or justification for nerfs at the top end.

Yes, thank you.

This was the whole point of my OP - that we need a continuous spectrum of difficulty from "easy" to "impossible" and that the current scaling has too large a jump between normal and veteran levels (for trials at least).

hedna123b14_ESO

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

lololol this is so much qq. you know how to beat hm helra? block. how you know when to block? you're standing in red. I can't even xD haha damn.

manticora is hard? why does the 3 second wind up for it's overcharge jot clue you in? how about the 2 popcorn phases, then red aoe you block, oops here comes a portal! if your raid leader can't recall the mechanics, then k=maybe the huge ass ghost floating around will clue you in.

this is 100% qq from bad playing. and nothing else.

edit:

most players are incredibly dumb with mehanics and refuse to learn them, no matter how a=simple they are. Planar inhibitor anybody?

this is why you have a good raid leader that tells you exactly where to stand, exactly when to ,move forward, exactly when to block, and kicks you from the group when you talk more than you listen.

The secret to HRC HM is blocking? Wow, speaking of people who don't understand the mechanics... So you think most non-tanks can block all the shield throws? Or the leap mechanic? While adds are out or you're already low health or stam? Just block starfall? Or the cleave? And of course the red telegraph is always in the right place, is never a little off where the damage actually falls, is never not shown because of settings or graphics bugs, is never obscured by other things on screen and is clearly visible at all times and never appears late? If you think HRC HM mechanics = block then it's *you* who clearly doesn't understand.

Block on the manti charge ... really? Because it's not like anyone's game has ever lagged out or just not been responsive to a block. And of course nobody has ever run out of stamina trying to move away from popcorn, or accidentally dodgerolled to get away and brought it to someone else. And if you have some way of knowing in advance where the portal will land then please let the rest of the player base know.

Sounds like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Sometimes things happen and even good groups wipe because of randomness in the mechanics. Is that QQ as well? You've never been in a group that wiped? And when you were, then that must have been a L2P issue, right?

The problem we're discussing is that there isn't a gradual increase in difficulty. The fact that some of the trials have random mechanics that can cause *any* group to wipe if RNG luck isn't with them is another issue entirely.

just got #6 score for hel ra. nobody died, we blocked. looks like it's YOU who's part of the problem. blaming failing mechanics on the game. heh

(btw we blocked, workes well)

No, it's people like YOU who are the problem. You think that, because a specific method works for you, it therefore should work for everyone and if it doesn't, it's a L2P issue. I don't know if you're being honest about constant blocking working for you in HRC HM, if you're lying just to create drama or what - but I can tell you that in my 5-1-1 armor and with 17K health, if I have anything less than 100% health and 100% stam, I get killed when blocking the shield throw and the outer ring of the leap attack. So do several of our other dps and our healer.

We beat our heads against HRC HM for some time until we realized that idiots who say "just block through everything" are wrong - and when we tried dodging out of the attacks, we were finally able to solve it.

Ivery done HRC over to 100 times if you die while blocking it's usually to 2 reasons:
1. You had no stam (shouldn't be the case)
2. You blocked too late and it didn't register.

jknight201

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

While I'm glad you were able to complete all that content, the VAST majority of ESO players ... simply can't.

Sorry but vMOL *is* very hard. Maybe a couple dozen people in the whole game can complete it? And it's not hard? No, just no. People switch off because they can't even get past the first damage shield of the first boss and then they stop trying. If they can even get to the first boss.

vSO - great, take the hardest trial in the game, one in which 99%+ of players can't get past the first boss and ... make it even harder! With a bunch of insta-kill mechanics! Great job Zos. Same thing, the vast majority of even somewhat good players can't get past the Manti. Totally agree that normal SO is a joke it's so easy. vSO ... is a joke because it's so hard. Not difficult (which would imply good mechanics and good gameplay) just ... hard.

Hel Ra HM is another that most players can't get past. Combine a bunch of 1-shot insta-kills with a HUGE add pull you have to have everyone up for AND perfect timing on mits ... and then they go and make it even harder? Again, wtf is Zos thinking? 100M+ health?

AA HM is arguably the easiest of the trials, but add in the 3rd boss causing crashing for a LOT of players and suddenly it gets hard. Combine that with, again, an end-game that the majority of players can't finish and, yet again, what is Zos thinking?

You need less than 10k dps to get through the first shield in vMoL which every class can get by just spamming a single skill. Depending on your cp and gear you can probably even get that by using nothing but light and heavy attacks.

In your opinion what's the difference between hard and difficult? From what I see if you have good movement the fights are easy and just take a while to complete. If you have issues it's most likely because you either don't know what to do (then just ask for help, most experienced players are happy to help new people to learn how to beat trials) or you need to practise your movement.

Another example of you not knowing the proper tactic but only the way how people used to do it when they had enough dps to ignore the mechanics. You can destroy most of the gargoyles before they engage the fight, it just requires good positioning from every group member.

Crashing has nothing to do with difficulty. If you can't complete content because of crashes, then you should write a bug report to fix crashes and not argue about reducing the difficulty so you can comlete it even if half your group is offline. (btw it seems to be the case that if anyone in your group uses the "travel to player" option to enter a trial, crashes happen much more frequently)

I got a good laugh at your "you need 10K dps to get past the first vMOL boss shield phase". I'm sorry, but if you believe that then you haven't actually gotten to the first boss in vMOL. Or you haven't played with a group that does 10K dps. We have a group average DPS of 25K+ and it's enough only if everything goes perfectly and is questionable if it's enough to get past the overall dps check with the pillar phase.

The difference between normal and veteran? Nearly all the mechanics from veteran are disabled in normal (big mistake) - so every fight becomes stack-and-burn. In veteran mode everything has much higher health and does much higher damage - often insanely so.

And we know the proper tactics, but that won't save you in vMOL. It won't even let you get past the first boss, which *is* largely stack-and-burn. Same with AA hard mode. Same with vSO (with small exception for the outer and portal groups).

I've been with experienced players and we weren't able to complete some content because of RNG. Namely AA hard mode, HRC hard mode and vSO manti. Was it because one or two people weren't pulling their weight? Maybe, but all the players were good and sometimes it just happens that way. That is a big part of the problem.

The first shield has 1.6mio hp and you can outheal the damage for at least 20 sec.
So 1 600 000 hp / 9 dds = 177 777
177 777 / 20sec = 8889 dps
The second shield has 2.4 mio hp, so
2 400 000 / 9 = 266 666
266 666 / 20 sec = 13.3k dps
The boss has 45mio hp if you include both shields and you have about 8min to kill him, so
45 000 000 / 9 = 5 000 000
5 000 000 / 480 sec = 10.5k dps

So if everyone does 11k dps on the boss on average and can spike for 13.5k dps during the second shield phase you shouldn't have a problem with the fight as long as people know how to move and stay alive. The cats should mostly die to aoe damage from your ultimates, endless hail, wall of elements, erruption, lightning splash, biting jabs, ... so I didn't include them in my calculation.
If you can't do this boss and people claim to do 25k dps on average your tactic and movement are either very bad or people are telling lies about their dps.

Damm! That math don't lie though:)

Actually his math does lie (but maybe not by much) because he's ignoring a few details:

- Add to the dps the time that people are cursed and have to cleanse
- Add to the dps the attacks that accidentally (or intentionally) go to the cats
- Add to the dps the fact that there might be one (or more) people dead and waiting on res because ... things happen.
- I don't think 20 seconds is a reasonable assumption for all the dps being up during the shield phase. In vMOL, you can count on at least 1-2 dps going down right at the start. And don't even start with the L2P crap - if you had to move out of position to cleanse or bring a cat to the tank and got caught out... it happens.
- It's more like 8 dps because your off-tank is going to do less damage that a full dps (maybe 8.5 dps)

Not saying his numbers are too far off, but there are a bunch of details left out - so it's not quite as simple as it appears in this post.

jknight201

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

It seems there's a standoff between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' here, which has been interesting read.

The problem is that in many ways, the have nots aren't willing to accept that they're have nots. They refuse to admit they just aren't as good as other players and think they're entitled to the best when they aren't putting in the same level of skill and effort as the guys who are beating it regularly. Sorry, but wasting your time wiping isn't the same as completing it, you don't get to have a trophy. Just because you spent three hours wiping on Mantikora and maybe the Troll boss, doesn't mean you put the same effort in as I did in completing it in an hour (in fact I'd argue you put in a lot less since you can't do it).

I completed Veteran Maelstrom on a Magicka DK without any maelstrom weapons, right before it was changed to a save mechanic, it took me three hours. I did it without ever learning it on any other class (all 8 toons are dks) I completed Veteran Sanctum after the change and I completed it on Hm before the change by taking time and learning the mechanics, learning to see the signs of the quake on me, knowing where the shards were, knowing that I shouldn't be attacking a boss if half my darn group is dead. Pulling pins, listening to the tank count down the world shaper and moving when he said to move.

I will do the same with Vet Maw. Get over yourselves and admit that there's a really good chance that if you don't stink, someone in your trial group does and is dragging all of you down.

You're the only one talking about entitlement. I do think people are entitled to have a range of content for a game they paid for, yes. If you want to go home at night and stroke your ego about how good you are, go right ahead. But many people want some challenging content because normal modes are too easy and veteran modes are too hard.

Just because a group can't get past vMOL doesn't mean "they stink". I guess you're such an awesome player you've never wiped in a trial or been killed in a dungeon before right? Or if you did then it must have been someone else's fault? Riiight. Even good players can't get past some content - maybe it's RNG, maybe it's because they aren't familiar with the mechanics, maybe it's because they work for a living and are tired when they play at night. Point is, just because people want a difficulty level between normal and veteran doesn't make them "entitled". It makes them want to have challenging content to play. Get over it.

hedna123b14_ESO

jknight201 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

While I'm glad you were able to complete all that content, the VAST majority of ESO players ... simply can't.

Sorry but vMOL *is* very hard. Maybe a couple dozen people in the whole game can complete it? And it's not hard? No, just no. People switch off because they can't even get past the first damage shield of the first boss and then they stop trying. If they can even get to the first boss.

vSO - great, take the hardest trial in the game, one in which 99%+ of players can't get past the first boss and ... make it even harder! With a bunch of insta-kill mechanics! Great job Zos. Same thing, the vast majority of even somewhat good players can't get past the Manti. Totally agree that normal SO is a joke it's so easy. vSO ... is a joke because it's so hard. Not difficult (which would imply good mechanics and good gameplay) just ... hard.

Hel Ra HM is another that most players can't get past. Combine a bunch of 1-shot insta-kills with a HUGE add pull you have to have everyone up for AND perfect timing on mits ... and then they go and make it even harder? Again, wtf is Zos thinking? 100M+ health?

AA HM is arguably the easiest of the trials, but add in the 3rd boss causing crashing for a LOT of players and suddenly it gets hard. Combine that with, again, an end-game that the majority of players can't finish and, yet again, what is Zos thinking?

You need less than 10k dps to get through the first shield in vMoL which every class can get by just spamming a single skill. Depending on your cp and gear you can probably even get that by using nothing but light and heavy attacks.

In your opinion what's the difference between hard and difficult? From what I see if you have good movement the fights are easy and just take a while to complete. If you have issues it's most likely because you either don't know what to do (then just ask for help, most experienced players are happy to help new people to learn how to beat trials) or you need to practise your movement.

Another example of you not knowing the proper tactic but only the way how people used to do it when they had enough dps to ignore the mechanics. You can destroy most of the gargoyles before they engage the fight, it just requires good positioning from every group member.

Crashing has nothing to do with difficulty. If you can't complete content because of crashes, then you should write a bug report to fix crashes and not argue about reducing the difficulty so you can comlete it even if half your group is offline. (btw it seems to be the case that if anyone in your group uses the "travel to player" option to enter a trial, crashes happen much more frequently)

I got a good laugh at your "you need 10K dps to get past the first vMOL boss shield phase". I'm sorry, but if you believe that then you haven't actually gotten to the first boss in vMOL. Or you haven't played with a group that does 10K dps. We have a group average DPS of 25K+ and it's enough only if everything goes perfectly and is questionable if it's enough to get past the overall dps check with the pillar phase.

The difference between normal and veteran? Nearly all the mechanics from veteran are disabled in normal (big mistake) - so every fight becomes stack-and-burn. In veteran mode everything has much higher health and does much higher damage - often insanely so.

And we know the proper tactics, but that won't save you in vMOL. It won't even let you get past the first boss, which *is* largely stack-and-burn. Same with AA hard mode. Same with vSO (with small exception for the outer and portal groups).

I've been with experienced players and we weren't able to complete some content because of RNG. Namely AA hard mode, HRC hard mode and vSO manti. Was it because one or two people weren't pulling their weight? Maybe, but all the players were good and sometimes it just happens that way. That is a big part of the problem.

The first shield has 1.6mio hp and you can outheal the damage for at least 20 sec.
So 1 600 000 hp / 9 dds = 177 777
177 777 / 20sec = 8889 dps
The second shield has 2.4 mio hp, so
2 400 000 / 9 = 266 666
266 666 / 20 sec = 13.3k dps
The boss has 45mio hp if you include both shields and you have about 8min to kill him, so
45 000 000 / 9 = 5 000 000
5 000 000 / 480 sec = 10.5k dps

So if everyone does 11k dps on the boss on average and can spike for 13.5k dps during the second shield phase you shouldn't have a problem with the fight as long as people know how to move and stay alive. The cats should mostly die to aoe damage from your ultimates, endless hail, wall of elements, erruption, lightning splash, biting jabs, ... so I didn't include them in my calculation.
If you can't do this boss and people claim to do 25k dps on average your tactic and movement are either very bad or people are telling lies about their dps.

Damm! That math don't lie though:)

Actually his math does lie (but maybe not by much) because he's ignoring a few details:

- Add to the dps the time that people are cursed and have to cleanse
- Add to the dps the attacks that accidentally (or intentionally) go to the cats
- Add to the dps the fact that there might be one (or more) people dead and waiting on res because ... things happen.
- I don't think 20 seconds is a reasonable assumption for all the dps being up during the shield phase. In vMOL, you can count on at least 1-2 dps going down right at the start. And don't even start with the L2P crap - if you had to move out of position to cleanse or bring a cat to the tank and got caught out... it happens.
- It's more like 8 dps because your off-tank is going to do less damage that a full dps (maybe 8.5 dps)

Not saying his numbers are too far off, but there are a bunch of details left out - so it's not quite as simple as it appears in this post.

The fact remains that even all the things you've mentioned are added on, it still comes way shy of the 25k you're talking about. Here is what I can tell you, when this trial was first on the pts, our guild went in and cleared it. Our average dps for that fight (we had no idea what we were doing) was 18k

jknight201

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

lololol this is so much qq. you know how to beat hm helra? block. how you know when to block? you're standing in red. I can't even xD haha damn.

manticora is hard? why does the 3 second wind up for it's overcharge jot clue you in? how about the 2 popcorn phases, then red aoe you block, oops here comes a portal! if your raid leader can't recall the mechanics, then k=maybe the huge ass ghost floating around will clue you in.

this is 100% qq from bad playing. and nothing else.

edit:

most players are incredibly dumb with mehanics and refuse to learn them, no matter how a=simple they are. Planar inhibitor anybody?

this is why you have a good raid leader that tells you exactly where to stand, exactly when to ,move forward, exactly when to block, and kicks you from the group when you talk more than you listen.

The secret to HRC HM is blocking? Wow, speaking of people who don't understand the mechanics... So you think most non-tanks can block all the shield throws? Or the leap mechanic? While adds are out or you're already low health or stam? Just block starfall? Or the cleave? And of course the red telegraph is always in the right place, is never a little off where the damage actually falls, is never not shown because of settings or graphics bugs, is never obscured by other things on screen and is clearly visible at all times and never appears late? If you think HRC HM mechanics = block then it's *you* who clearly doesn't understand.

Block on the manti charge ... really? Because it's not like anyone's game has ever lagged out or just not been responsive to a block. And of course nobody has ever run out of stamina trying to move away from popcorn, or accidentally dodgerolled to get away and brought it to someone else. And if you have some way of knowing in advance where the portal will land then please let the rest of the player base know.

Sounds like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Sometimes things happen and even good groups wipe because of randomness in the mechanics. Is that QQ as well? You've never been in a group that wiped? And when you were, then that must have been a L2P issue, right?

The problem we're discussing is that there isn't a gradual increase in difficulty. The fact that some of the trials have random mechanics that can cause *any* group to wipe if RNG luck isn't with them is another issue entirely.

just got #6 score for hel ra. nobody died, we blocked. looks like it's YOU who's part of the problem. blaming failing mechanics on the game. heh

(btw we blocked, workes well)

No, it's people like YOU who are the problem. You think that, because a specific method works for you, it therefore should work for everyone and if it doesn't, it's a L2P issue. I don't know if you're being honest about constant blocking working for you in HRC HM, if you're lying just to create drama or what - but I can tell you that in my 5-1-1 armor and with 17K health, if I have anything less than 100% health and 100% stam, I get killed when blocking the shield throw and the outer ring of the leap attack. So do several of our other dps and our healer.

We beat our heads against HRC HM for some time until we realized that idiots who say "just block through everything" are wrong - and when we tried dodging out of the attacks, we were finally able to solve it.

Ivery done HRC over to 100 times if you die while blocking it's usually to 2 reasons:
1. You had no stam (shouldn't be the case)
2. You blocked too late and it didn't register.

I don't know what the cause is, tbh. If I did, we'd have done something different a long time ago. It's not just me, it's me, our healers and several other dps. Once we gave up on the block strategy and just dodged out of the way, we were able to clear it. The only deaths we had the last time we ran through it were from not having stam or that bug where you dodge out of an attack and get killed anyway (or stupid stuff like not being able to see the cleave).

I've been trying to get a HRC HM clear with several different groups and it is a real problem and no, most people can't block through it. Every single group I've played with who has tried the stack-and-block strategy has wiped and not been able to finish. I'm not trying to create an argument here, I'm just saying that's what I've seen over the last ... 3 months with many groups on many, many attempts to clear it.

hedna123b14_ESO

jknight201 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

lololol this is so much qq. you know how to beat hm helra? block. how you know when to block? you're standing in red. I can't even xD haha damn.

manticora is hard? why does the 3 second wind up for it's overcharge jot clue you in? how about the 2 popcorn phases, then red aoe you block, oops here comes a portal! if your raid leader can't recall the mechanics, then k=maybe the huge ass ghost floating around will clue you in.

this is 100% qq from bad playing. and nothing else.

edit:

most players are incredibly dumb with mehanics and refuse to learn them, no matter how a=simple they are. Planar inhibitor anybody?

this is why you have a good raid leader that tells you exactly where to stand, exactly when to ,move forward, exactly when to block, and kicks you from the group when you talk more than you listen.

The secret to HRC HM is blocking? Wow, speaking of people who don't understand the mechanics... So you think most non-tanks can block all the shield throws? Or the leap mechanic? While adds are out or you're already low health or stam? Just block starfall? Or the cleave? And of course the red telegraph is always in the right place, is never a little off where the damage actually falls, is never not shown because of settings or graphics bugs, is never obscured by other things on screen and is clearly visible at all times and never appears late? If you think HRC HM mechanics = block then it's *you* who clearly doesn't understand.

Block on the manti charge ... really? Because it's not like anyone's game has ever lagged out or just not been responsive to a block. And of course nobody has ever run out of stamina trying to move away from popcorn, or accidentally dodgerolled to get away and brought it to someone else. And if you have some way of knowing in advance where the portal will land then please let the rest of the player base know.

Sounds like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Sometimes things happen and even good groups wipe because of randomness in the mechanics. Is that QQ as well? You've never been in a group that wiped? And when you were, then that must have been a L2P issue, right?

The problem we're discussing is that there isn't a gradual increase in difficulty. The fact that some of the trials have random mechanics that can cause *any* group to wipe if RNG luck isn't with them is another issue entirely.

just got #6 score for hel ra. nobody died, we blocked. looks like it's YOU who's part of the problem. blaming failing mechanics on the game. heh

(btw we blocked, workes well)

No, it's people like YOU who are the problem. You think that, because a specific method works for you, it therefore should work for everyone and if it doesn't, it's a L2P issue. I don't know if you're being honest about constant blocking working for you in HRC HM, if you're lying just to create drama or what - but I can tell you that in my 5-1-1 armor and with 17K health, if I have anything less than 100% health and 100% stam, I get killed when blocking the shield throw and the outer ring of the leap attack. So do several of our other dps and our healer.

We beat our heads against HRC HM for some time until we realized that idiots who say "just block through everything" are wrong - and when we tried dodging out of the attacks, we were finally able to solve it.

Ivery done HRC over to 100 times if you die while blocking it's usually to 2 reasons:
1. You had no stam (shouldn't be the case)
2. You blocked too late and it didn't register.

I don't know what the cause is, tbh. If I did, we'd have done something different a long time ago. It's not just me, it's me, our healers and several other dps. Once we gave up on the block strategy and just dodged out of the way, we were able to clear it. The only deaths we had the last time we ran through it were from not having stam or that bug where you dodge out of an attack and get killed anyway (or stupid stuff like not being able to see the cleave).

I've been trying to get a HRC HM clear with several different groups and it is a real problem and no, most people can't block through it. Every single group I've played with who has tried the stack-and-block strategy has wiped and not been able to finish. I'm not trying to create an argument here, I'm just saying that's what I've seen over the last ... 3 months with many groups on many, many attempts to clear it.

And from my experience it's the exact opposite

hedna123b14_ESO

@jknight201 to be frank in that sorc thread when we spoke you were saying that you are wearing all the same armor, have all the same skills and are doing 18k on a character that should be pulling 27k. You assured me that youve tried all the builds and did everything you were supposed to and that it is just impossible to get such higj numbers. Then we get down to discussing the details and we find out that your magsorc is not an Altmer or breton, points in attributes other than magicka, no Inner Light and bound aegis double slotted, light attack weaving every skill, no frags on a kena build, applying dots out of order. So clearly you said that you were doing everything you were supposed to but that was clearly not the case. After I learned that it is hard to trust you when you say that you indeed blocked the shield throw correctly.

code65536

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Here is what I can tell you, when this trial was first on the pts, our guild went in and cleared it. Our average dps for that fight (we had no idea what we were doing) was 18k

Ah, I still remember that night--day one of my vMoL journey. You did leave out the part about how it took us 3 hours and we finally got that boss down on the this-is-our-last-try-for-the-night pull. But, yes, it was mostly about cleaning up the fight, because all that time spent running, rezzing, and doing damage-control was time not spend doing DPS on the boss. The DPS doesn't need to be very high if the mechanical part is perfectly clean.

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

You blocked too late and it didn't register.

Yea, that's how I normally die on that fight. Depending on how the lag is, sometimes I'll mash down that RMB and it just won't register until a second later, which is sometimes too late. Blocking early--or even taking a DPS hit by block-casting--will help if someone is missing the blocks too much due to timing.

hedna123b14_ESO

code65536 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Here is what I can tell you, when this trial was first on the pts, our guild went in and cleared it. Our average dps for that fight (we had no idea what we were doing) was 18k

Ah, I still remember that night--day one of my vMoL journey. You did leave out the part about how it took us 3 hours and we finally got that boss down on the this-is-our-last-try-for-the-night pull. But, yes, it was mostly about cleaning up the fight, because all that time spent running, rezzing, and doing damage-control was time not spend doing DPS on the boss. The DPS doesn't need to be very high if the mechanical part is perfectly clean.

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

You blocked too late and it didn't register.

Yea, that's how I normally die on that fight. Depending on how the lag is, sometimes I'll mash down that RMB and it just won't register until a second later, which is sometimes too late. Blocking early--or even taking a DPS hit by block-casting--will help if someone is missing the blocks too much due to timing.

I also noticed that on the toons that use jabs or rapid strikes it's much more likely to die because the animation cancel is delayed

jknight201

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

@jknight201 to be frank in that sorc thread when we spoke you were saying that you are wearing all the same armor, have all the same skills and are doing 18k on a character that should be pulling 27k. You assured me that youve tried all the builds and did everything you were supposed to and that it is just impossible to get such higj numbers. Then we get down to discussing the details and we find out that your magsorc is not an Altmer or breton, points in attributes other than magicka, no Inner Light and bound aegis double slotted, light attack weaving every skill, no frags on a kena build, applying dots out of order. So clearly you said that you were doing everything you were supposed to but that was clearly not the case. After I learned that it is hard to trust you when you say that you indeed blocked the shield throw correctly.

I really didn't want to take this discussion off the difficulty scaling of trials but since we're talking about trust - let me just clear the air:

- I never said it was impossible, I said that I couldn't get 27K using the same gear and abilities
- Yes, I play a Khajiit sorc. Never said otherwise. If anyone thinks that reason alone is why I've had problems clearing vSO, vMOL and HRC HM they can go pound sand.
- Yes, I used to have 15 points in health because of things like getting 1-shotted by the shield throw and not always playing with good healers
- I've always had Inner Light and Aegis double-barred, not sure where that's coming from
- I weave light attacks when I need to proc 2 pc Kena. Wearing 2 pc Kena and not using light attacks would be the problem here, not the other way around.
- I have Ward instead of Frags because see previous comment about getting 1-shotted all the time and playing with bad healers
- Similar to the Khajiit comment, if anyone thinks I can't clear vSO or vMOL because I put Liquid Lightning down before Elemental Blockade in my rotation... I don't even know how to respond to that.

What *any* of that has to do with trying to block boss attacks in a trial... I have no idea.

jknight201

(Sorry, double posted for some reason)

Shadesofkin

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

lololol this is so much qq. you know how to beat hm helra? block. how you know when to block? you're standing in red. I can't even xD haha damn.

manticora is hard? why does the 3 second wind up for it's overcharge jot clue you in? how about the 2 popcorn phases, then red aoe you block, oops here comes a portal! if your raid leader can't recall the mechanics, then k=maybe the huge ass ghost floating around will clue you in.

this is 100% qq from bad playing. and nothing else.

edit:

most players are incredibly dumb with mehanics and refuse to learn them, no matter how a=simple they are. Planar inhibitor anybody?

this is why you have a good raid leader that tells you exactly where to stand, exactly when to ,move forward, exactly when to block, and kicks you from the group when you talk more than you listen.

The secret to HRC HM is blocking? Wow, speaking of people who don't understand the mechanics... So you think most non-tanks can block all the shield throws? Or the leap mechanic? While adds are out or you're already low health or stam? Just block starfall? Or the cleave? And of course the red telegraph is always in the right place, is never a little off where the damage actually falls, is never not shown because of settings or graphics bugs, is never obscured by other things on screen and is clearly visible at all times and never appears late? If you think HRC HM mechanics = block then it's *you* who clearly doesn't understand.

Block on the manti charge ... really? Because it's not like anyone's game has ever lagged out or just not been responsive to a block. And of course nobody has ever run out of stamina trying to move away from popcorn, or accidentally dodgerolled to get away and brought it to someone else. And if you have some way of knowing in advance where the portal will land then please let the rest of the player base know.

Sounds like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Sometimes things happen and even good groups wipe because of randomness in the mechanics. Is that QQ as well? You've never been in a group that wiped? And when you were, then that must have been a L2P issue, right?

The problem we're discussing is that there isn't a gradual increase in difficulty. The fact that some of the trials have random mechanics that can cause *any* group to wipe if RNG luck isn't with them is another issue entirely.

just got #6 score for hel ra. nobody died, we blocked. looks like it's YOU who's part of the problem. blaming failing mechanics on the game. heh

(btw we blocked, workes well)

No, it's people like YOU who are the problem. You think that, because a specific method works for you, it therefore should work for everyone and if it doesn't, it's a L2P issue. I don't know if you're being honest about constant blocking working for you in HRC HM, if you're lying just to create drama or what - but I can tell you that in my 5-1-1 armor and with 17K health, if I have anything less than 100% health and 100% stam, I get killed when blocking the shield throw and the outer ring of the leap attack. So do several of our other dps and our healer.

We beat our heads against HRC HM for some time until we realized that idiots who say "just block through everything" are wrong - and when we tried dodging out of the attacks, we were finally able to solve it.

Your healers are bad then. Or your cp are allocated incorrectly, or you're not really blocking (thats happened to me) you're not wearing a Heavy Chest piece to ensure your phys resist is higher, or your tank never held aggro (because you shouldn't be taking damage outside of shield and jump until Gargoyle).

These are all issues. I said before, if you really believe it's not you, then it's your fellow teammembers.

jknight201

Shadesofkin wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

lololol this is so much qq. you know how to beat hm helra? block. how you know when to block? you're standing in red. I can't even xD haha damn.

manticora is hard? why does the 3 second wind up for it's overcharge jot clue you in? how about the 2 popcorn phases, then red aoe you block, oops here comes a portal! if your raid leader can't recall the mechanics, then k=maybe the huge ass ghost floating around will clue you in.

this is 100% qq from bad playing. and nothing else.

edit:

most players are incredibly dumb with mehanics and refuse to learn them, no matter how a=simple they are. Planar inhibitor anybody?

this is why you have a good raid leader that tells you exactly where to stand, exactly when to ,move forward, exactly when to block, and kicks you from the group when you talk more than you listen.

The secret to HRC HM is blocking? Wow, speaking of people who don't understand the mechanics... So you think most non-tanks can block all the shield throws? Or the leap mechanic? While adds are out or you're already low health or stam? Just block starfall? Or the cleave? And of course the red telegraph is always in the right place, is never a little off where the damage actually falls, is never not shown because of settings or graphics bugs, is never obscured by other things on screen and is clearly visible at all times and never appears late? If you think HRC HM mechanics = block then it's *you* who clearly doesn't understand.

Block on the manti charge ... really? Because it's not like anyone's game has ever lagged out or just not been responsive to a block. And of course nobody has ever run out of stamina trying to move away from popcorn, or accidentally dodgerolled to get away and brought it to someone else. And if you have some way of knowing in advance where the portal will land then please let the rest of the player base know.

Sounds like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Sometimes things happen and even good groups wipe because of randomness in the mechanics. Is that QQ as well? You've never been in a group that wiped? And when you were, then that must have been a L2P issue, right?

The problem we're discussing is that there isn't a gradual increase in difficulty. The fact that some of the trials have random mechanics that can cause *any* group to wipe if RNG luck isn't with them is another issue entirely.

just got #6 score for hel ra. nobody died, we blocked. looks like it's YOU who's part of the problem. blaming failing mechanics on the game. heh

(btw we blocked, workes well)

No, it's people like YOU who are the problem. You think that, because a specific method works for you, it therefore should work for everyone and if it doesn't, it's a L2P issue. I don't know if you're being honest about constant blocking working for you in HRC HM, if you're lying just to create drama or what - but I can tell you that in my 5-1-1 armor and with 17K health, if I have anything less than 100% health and 100% stam, I get killed when blocking the shield throw and the outer ring of the leap attack. So do several of our other dps and our healer.

We beat our heads against HRC HM for some time until we realized that idiots who say "just block through everything" are wrong - and when we tried dodging out of the attacks, we were finally able to solve it.

Your healers are bad then.

Can't block if you don't have the stamina to do it, and that's not the healer's fault.

Shadesofkin wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

lololol this is so much qq. you know how to beat hm helra? block. how you know when to block? you're standing in red. I can't even xD haha damn.

manticora is hard? why does the 3 second wind up for it's overcharge jot clue you in? how about the 2 popcorn phases, then red aoe you block, oops here comes a portal! if your raid leader can't recall the mechanics, then k=maybe the huge ass ghost floating around will clue you in.

this is 100% qq from bad playing. and nothing else.

edit:

most players are incredibly dumb with mehanics and refuse to learn them, no matter how a=simple they are. Planar inhibitor anybody?

this is why you have a good raid leader that tells you exactly where to stand, exactly when to ,move forward, exactly when to block, and kicks you from the group when you talk more than you listen.

The secret to HRC HM is blocking? Wow, speaking of people who don't understand the mechanics... So you think most non-tanks can block all the shield throws? Or the leap mechanic? While adds are out or you're already low health or stam? Just block starfall? Or the cleave? And of course the red telegraph is always in the right place, is never a little off where the damage actually falls, is never not shown because of settings or graphics bugs, is never obscured by other things on screen and is clearly visible at all times and never appears late? If you think HRC HM mechanics = block then it's *you* who clearly doesn't understand.

Block on the manti charge ... really? Because it's not like anyone's game has ever lagged out or just not been responsive to a block. And of course nobody has ever run out of stamina trying to move away from popcorn, or accidentally dodgerolled to get away and brought it to someone else. And if you have some way of knowing in advance where the portal will land then please let the rest of the player base know.

Sounds like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Sometimes things happen and even good groups wipe because of randomness in the mechanics. Is that QQ as well? You've never been in a group that wiped? And when you were, then that must have been a L2P issue, right?

The problem we're discussing is that there isn't a gradual increase in difficulty. The fact that some of the trials have random mechanics that can cause *any* group to wipe if RNG luck isn't with them is another issue entirely.

just got #6 score for hel ra. nobody died, we blocked. looks like it's YOU who's part of the problem. blaming failing mechanics on the game. heh

(btw we blocked, workes well)

No, it's people like YOU who are the problem. You think that, because a specific method works for you, it therefore should work for everyone and if it doesn't, it's a L2P issue. I don't know if you're being honest about constant blocking working for you in HRC HM, if you're lying just to create drama or what - but I can tell you that in my 5-1-1 armor and with 17K health, if I have anything less than 100% health and 100% stam, I get killed when blocking the shield throw and the outer ring of the leap attack. So do several of our other dps and our healer.

We beat our heads against HRC HM for some time until we realized that idiots who say "just block through everything" are wrong - and when we tried dodging out of the attacks, we were finally able to solve it.

Your healers are bad then. Or your cp are allocated incorrectly, or you're not really blocking (thats happened to me) you're not wearing a Heavy Chest piece to ensure your phys resist is higher, or your tank never held aggro (because you shouldn't be taking damage outside of shield and jump until Gargoyle).

These are all issues. I said before, if you really believe it's not you, then it's your fellow teammembers.

I don't know. If I knew, I'd fix it. CP split between mag and phys resist. It might be that the block isn't registering, but I can block the first throw and have the damage to prove it, but then have no stam to block the second attack. I have a heavy chest piece, yes. I can't blame it on the tank - many of the adds are ranged and he can't agro all of them. Getting killed by adds is A problem but not THE problem - it's trying to block through the Warrior's attacks that was getting 1/4 to 1/3 of the group killed.

I'm not blaming the team either - what I am blaming are people who say "blocking ftw" as the only strategy to get past HRC HM and if it doesn't work for you then it's an L2P issue.

hedna123b14_ESO

jknight201 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

@jknight201 to be frank in that sorc thread when we spoke you were saying that you are wearing all the same armor, have all the same skills and are doing 18k on a character that should be pulling 27k. You assured me that youve tried all the builds and did everything you were supposed to and that it is just impossible to get such higj numbers. Then we get down to discussing the details and we find out that your magsorc is not an Altmer or breton, points in attributes other than magicka, no Inner Light and bound aegis double slotted, light attack weaving every skill, no frags on a kena build, applying dots out of order. So clearly you said that you were doing everything you were supposed to but that was clearly not the case. After I learned that it is hard to trust you when you say that you indeed blocked the shield throw correctly.

I really didn't want to take this discussion off the difficulty scaling of trials but since we're talking about trust - let me just clear the air:

- I never said it was impossible, I said that I couldn't get 27K using the same gear and abilities
- Yes, I play a Khajiit sorc. Never said otherwise. If anyone thinks that reason alone is why I've had problems clearing vSO, vMOL and HRC HM they can go pound sand.
- Yes, I used to have 15 points in health because of things like getting 1-shotted by the shield throw and not always playing with good healers
- I've always had Inner Light and Aegis double-barred, not sure where that's coming from
- I weave light attacks when I need to proc 2 pc Kena. Wearing 2 pc Kena and not using light attacks would be the problem here, not the other way around.
- I have Ward instead of Frags because see previous comment about getting 1-shotted all the time and playing with bad healers
- Similar to the Khajiit comment, if anyone thinks I can't clear vSO or vMOL because I put Liquid Lightning down before Elemental Blockade in my rotation... I don't even know how to respond to that.

What *any* of that has to do with trying to block boss attacks in a trial... I have no idea.

The point was that you stated that you are running the builds that are posted online exactly as they are supposed to be run and not getting the same results. The issue was that you were NOT doing what you said. Drawing from that example it's hard to believe you when you say you are blocking and dying. I wager youre either forgetting to block or blocking too late.

hedna123b14_ESO

jknight201 wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

lololol this is so much qq. you know how to beat hm helra? block. how you know when to block? you're standing in red. I can't even xD haha damn.

manticora is hard? why does the 3 second wind up for it's overcharge jot clue you in? how about the 2 popcorn phases, then red aoe you block, oops here comes a portal! if your raid leader can't recall the mechanics, then k=maybe the huge ass ghost floating around will clue you in.

this is 100% qq from bad playing. and nothing else.

edit:

most players are incredibly dumb with mehanics and refuse to learn them, no matter how a=simple they are. Planar inhibitor anybody?

this is why you have a good raid leader that tells you exactly where to stand, exactly when to ,move forward, exactly when to block, and kicks you from the group when you talk more than you listen.

The secret to HRC HM is blocking? Wow, speaking of people who don't understand the mechanics... So you think most non-tanks can block all the shield throws? Or the leap mechanic? While adds are out or you're already low health or stam? Just block starfall? Or the cleave? And of course the red telegraph is always in the right place, is never a little off where the damage actually falls, is never not shown because of settings or graphics bugs, is never obscured by other things on screen and is clearly visible at all times and never appears late? If you think HRC HM mechanics = block then it's *you* who clearly doesn't understand.

Block on the manti charge ... really? Because it's not like anyone's game has ever lagged out or just not been responsive to a block. And of course nobody has ever run out of stamina trying to move away from popcorn, or accidentally dodgerolled to get away and brought it to someone else. And if you have some way of knowing in advance where the portal will land then please let the rest of the player base know.

Sounds like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Sometimes things happen and even good groups wipe because of randomness in the mechanics. Is that QQ as well? You've never been in a group that wiped? And when you were, then that must have been a L2P issue, right?

The problem we're discussing is that there isn't a gradual increase in difficulty. The fact that some of the trials have random mechanics that can cause *any* group to wipe if RNG luck isn't with them is another issue entirely.

just got #6 score for hel ra. nobody died, we blocked. looks like it's YOU who's part of the problem. blaming failing mechanics on the game. heh

(btw we blocked, workes well)

No, it's people like YOU who are the problem. You think that, because a specific method works for you, it therefore should work for everyone and if it doesn't, it's a L2P issue. I don't know if you're being honest about constant blocking working for you in HRC HM, if you're lying just to create drama or what - but I can tell you that in my 5-1-1 armor and with 17K health, if I have anything less than 100% health and 100% stam, I get killed when blocking the shield throw and the outer ring of the leap attack. So do several of our other dps and our healer.

We beat our heads against HRC HM for some time until we realized that idiots who say "just block through everything" are wrong - and when we tried dodging out of the attacks, we were finally able to solve it.

Your healers are bad then.

Can't block if you don't have the stamina to do it, and that's not the healer's fault.

Shadesofkin wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

lololol this is so much qq. you know how to beat hm helra? block. how you know when to block? you're standing in red. I can't even xD haha damn.

manticora is hard? why does the 3 second wind up for it's overcharge jot clue you in? how about the 2 popcorn phases, then red aoe you block, oops here comes a portal! if your raid leader can't recall the mechanics, then k=maybe the huge ass ghost floating around will clue you in.

this is 100% qq from bad playing. and nothing else.

edit:

most players are incredibly dumb with mehanics and refuse to learn them, no matter how a=simple they are. Planar inhibitor anybody?

this is why you have a good raid leader that tells you exactly where to stand, exactly when to ,move forward, exactly when to block, and kicks you from the group when you talk more than you listen.

The secret to HRC HM is blocking? Wow, speaking of people who don't understand the mechanics... So you think most non-tanks can block all the shield throws? Or the leap mechanic? While adds are out or you're already low health or stam? Just block starfall? Or the cleave? And of course the red telegraph is always in the right place, is never a little off where the damage actually falls, is never not shown because of settings or graphics bugs, is never obscured by other things on screen and is clearly visible at all times and never appears late? If you think HRC HM mechanics = block then it's *you* who clearly doesn't understand.

Block on the manti charge ... really? Because it's not like anyone's game has ever lagged out or just not been responsive to a block. And of course nobody has ever run out of stamina trying to move away from popcorn, or accidentally dodgerolled to get away and brought it to someone else. And if you have some way of knowing in advance where the portal will land then please let the rest of the player base know.

Sounds like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Sometimes things happen and even good groups wipe because of randomness in the mechanics. Is that QQ as well? You've never been in a group that wiped? And when you were, then that must have been a L2P issue, right?

The problem we're discussing is that there isn't a gradual increase in difficulty. The fact that some of the trials have random mechanics that can cause *any* group to wipe if RNG luck isn't with them is another issue entirely.

just got #6 score for hel ra. nobody died, we blocked. looks like it's YOU who's part of the problem. blaming failing mechanics on the game. heh

(btw we blocked, workes well)

No, it's people like YOU who are the problem. You think that, because a specific method works for you, it therefore should work for everyone and if it doesn't, it's a L2P issue. I don't know if you're being honest about constant blocking working for you in HRC HM, if you're lying just to create drama or what - but I can tell you that in my 5-1-1 armor and with 17K health, if I have anything less than 100% health and 100% stam, I get killed when blocking the shield throw and the outer ring of the leap attack. So do several of our other dps and our healer.

We beat our heads against HRC HM for some time until we realized that idiots who say "just block through everything" are wrong - and when we tried dodging out of the attacks, we were finally able to solve it.

Your healers are bad then. Or your cp are allocated incorrectly, or you're not really blocking (thats happened to me) you're not wearing a Heavy Chest piece to ensure your phys resist is higher, or your tank never held aggro (because you shouldn't be taking damage outside of shield and jump until Gargoyle).

These are all issues. I said before, if you really believe it's not you, then it's your fellow teammembers.

I don't know. If I knew, I'd fix it. CP split between mag and phys resist. It might be that the block isn't registering, but I can block the first throw and have the damage to prove it, but then have no stam to block the second attack. I have a heavy chest piece, yes. I can't blame it on the tank - many of the adds are ranged and he can't agro all of them. Getting killed by adds is A problem but not THE problem - it's trying to block through the Warrior's attacks that was getting 1/4 to 1/3 of the group killed.

I'm not blaming the team either - what I am blaming are people who say "blocking ftw" as the only strategy to get past HRC HM and if it doesn't work for you then it's an L2P issue.

There are other strategies, but blocking is the easiest and the most efficlient. Blocking will guarantee you survival. Out of any damage in that place you should only be blocking that shield throw and the gargoyle stomp. As a magicka user you should definitely have enough stam to block all of the Warriors shield throws, since you shouldn't be block casting at any other point during the encounter (against except the gargoyle phase).