Thoughts on difficulty level of new trials (vSO, MOL and soon vHRC and vAA)

jknight201

@Wrobel

The normal trials (nSO and nMOL) seem to be about the right level of difficulty. A random group with little to no experience will struggle to get through the trial, but they can if they keep trying. An experienced group with maybe half random people can get through it with a little difficulty. An experienced group can easy-button through it with little effort. It may not be a whole lot of fun, but at least it's good loot (at least for SO and MOL).

My problem is with the veteran versions. There is a *huge* increase in difficulty from normal to veteran mode. Normal SO is a complete walk-in-the-park but vSO is very challenging. Most experienced groups can't complete it, while the elite groups seem to have little problem. Normal MOL is fairly easy for an experienced group, but in vMOL the same experienced groups can't get past the first boss, or rarely the second. There are only a few elite groups that have been able to even complete vMOL. After trying HRC on the PTS, it looks like Zos is going to do the same thing with AA and HRC.

Is Zos really so out of touch with the player base that they have weekly leaderboard trials (vMOL) that only, maybe 20 people TOTAL are capable of completing? What's even the point? Just mail those people the rewards because nobody else is able to go after them. And veteran hard mode is worse still.

It seems to me that veteran mode should be difficult but not impossible to complete for an experienced group. Veteran hard mode should be difficult for an elite group. I think Zos needs to close the difficulty gap between normal and veteran modes and then adjust (if necessary) veteran hard mode so than only a few elites can complete that. That or put the normal versions on the leaderboards - what's the point of having a trial on the leaderboards that 0.0001% of the player base can even finish?

code65536

What they need is an intermediate difficulty level, as the normal versions are so diluted that they don't help prepare people for the vet versions. This applies to vMA, vMoL, vSO, etc.

The only real sticking point is vMoL, which requires a degree of coordination and raid awareness that far surpasses any other trial, and it's made worse by some dubious mechanics (like the random spawn locations of the adds on the twins boss--hope you have enough DK chains ready!). It requires a degree of commitment that is probably out of the reach of many: I was in a run that got the final boss to 6% last night--so close--and getting to that point was a months-long journey that started on day 1 of the TG PTS, and I'm fortunate to belong to a guild that can do this. For vMoL in particular, I really think there needs to be an intermediate difficulty for the many who faceroll through nMoL with no sense of challenge but for whom vMoL is simply unrealistically out of reach. There's been a lot of threads about three difficultly tiers--Nightmare Modes, etc.--and I think vMoL, more than any other content, needs an additional middle difficulty.

Although I haven't yet tried vAA and vHRC on the PTS, vSO really isn't that bad. It does have a bit of a learning curve as people develop strategies and get the necessary practice. But there are now many groups on NA/PC that have vSO on farm. vSO really isn't that difficult, once you have the right strategies developed. In fact, the final boss fight in vSO HM is in some ways even easier than the pre-DB SO HM. I think vSO is in a good spot in terms of difficulty--well, aside from some dubious mechanics (like the poison now being random instead of being controllable via aggro).

Ep1kMalware

jknight201 wrote: »

@Wrobel

The normal trials (nSO and nMOL) seem to be about the right level of difficulty. A random group with little to no experience will struggle to get through the trial, but they can if they keep trying. An experienced group with maybe half random people can get through it with a little difficulty. An experienced group can easy-button through it with little effort. It may not be a whole lot of fun, but at least it's good loot (at least for SO and MOL).

My problem is with the veteran versions. There is a *huge* increase in difficulty from normal to veteran mode. Normal SO is a complete walk-in-the-park but vSO is very challenging. Most experienced groups can't complete it, while the elite groups seem to have little problem. Normal MOL is fairly easy for an experienced group, but in vMOL the same experienced groups can't get past the first boss, or rarely the second. There are only a few elite groups that have been able to even complete vMOL. After trying HRC on the PTS, it looks like Zos is going to do the same thing with AA and HRC.

Is Zos really so out of touch with the player base that they have weekly leaderboard trials (vMOL) that only, maybe 20 people TOTAL are capable of completing? What's even the point? Just mail those people the rewards because nobody else is able to go after them. And veteran hard mode is worse still.

It seems to me that veteran mode should be difficult but not impossible to complete for an experienced group. Veteran hard mode should be difficult for an elite group. I think Zos needs to close the difficulty gap between normal and veteran modes and then adjust (if necessary) veteran hard mode so than only a few elites can complete that. That or put the normal versions on the leaderboards - what's the point of having a trial on the leaderboards that 0.0001% of the player base can even finish?

there isn't a huge spike in difficulty. -.-

there is a difficultt increase at first, but then it's not so bad, it's exactly like how it used to be before the update. the problem with remodling content is that the new era of qq'ers accidentally bump into it and immediately want nerfs.

I'll tell you point blank: go run he ra and aa now. Learn the mechanics while they're roflestomp easy. Soon as the patch goes live the normal versions won't have these mehanics, so there is no better time to learn than now. Vet mode will be what it is right now, but with bigger life bars.

They're not MoL is the only uber OP content atm.

boggie

I think the big problem with the new veteran trials (and why so few groups complete them) is that they are overly dependent on "dps race" mechanics in the fights. In the original trials, having subpar (in this case meaning not pulling 25k+, or the equivalent to that at the time) dps meant that you had to be better at the mechanics. Low dps made the fights harder, sure, but if your group was on top of their game and could handle the mechanics well, you could still clear the content. Contrast that with the first boss in vet Maw- you don't burn him fast enough, and eventually you don't get a pillar and he 1-shots the entire group, or the Ozara fight- don't burn her down fast enough, and she'll eventually pin the entire group killing everyone. It doesn't matter how "good" your group is at handling mechanics- if you don't meet a set benchmark of dps for the group, you WILL fail. No counterplay, and no way around it. This strikes me as a cheap way to artificially inflate the "difficulty" of content, without having to put any real thought into engaging and challenging mechanics.

jknight201

code65536 wrote: »

What they need is an intermediate difficulty level, as the normal versions are so diluted that they don't help prepare people for the vet versions. This applies to vMA, vMoL, vSO, etc.

The only real sticking point is vMoL, which requires a degree of coordination and raid awareness that far surpasses any other trial, and it's made worse by some dubious mechanics (like the random spawn locations of the adds on the twins boss--hope you have enough DK chains ready!). It requires a degree of commitment that is probably out of the reach of many: I was in a run that got the final boss to 6% last night--so close--and getting to that point was a months-long journey that started on day 1 of the TG PTS, and I'm fortunate to belong to a guild that can do this. For vMoL in particular, I really think there needs to be an intermediate difficulty for the many who faceroll through nMoL with no sense of challenge but for whom vMoL is simply unrealistically out of reach. There's been a lot of threads about three difficultly tiers--Nightmare Modes, etc.--and I think vMoL, more than any other content, needs an additional middle difficulty.

Although I haven't yet tried vAA and vHRC on the PTS, vSO really isn't that bad. It does have a bit of a learning curve as people develop strategies and get the necessary practice. But there are now many groups on NA/PC that have vSO on farm. vSO really isn't that difficult, once you have the right strategies developed. In fact, the final boss fight in vSO HM is in some ways even easier than the pre-DB SO HM. I think vSO is in a good spot in terms of difficulty--well, aside from some dubious mechanics (like the poison now being random instead of being controllable via aggro).

I agree, and I forgot to mention that it is a shame that the normal modes of SO and MOL disable most of the mechanics of veteran mode. That's a shame as there is no way for people to practice those mechanics as they just no longer see them outside of vet mode. With the trials being scaled to CR level, you can't just take your V1 character in and set an easier level so people can see the mechanics while still being able to complete the trial.

I have only tried vHRC on the PTS and it seemed the same as the changes they made to SO - normal mode was about the same (we didn't try hard mode, if it's even still available in normal) but veteran mode was much, much harder - I doubt many groups will be able to complete it.

I can't really speak to vSO difficulty as I haven't played with a group that can complete it. I've played with groups who said they have completed it in the past, but were unable to progress past the Manticora when I was with them. But even with SO, I think there is too large a difference in difficulty between normal and veteran mode. They should have left the mechanics in normal mode, but watered them down to where most groups could still complete the content.

jknight201

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

@Wrobel

The normal trials (nSO and nMOL) seem to be about the right level of difficulty. A random group with little to no experience will struggle to get through the trial, but they can if they keep trying. An experienced group with maybe half random people can get through it with a little difficulty. An experienced group can easy-button through it with little effort. It may not be a whole lot of fun, but at least it's good loot (at least for SO and MOL).

My problem is with the veteran versions. There is a *huge* increase in difficulty from normal to veteran mode. Normal SO is a complete walk-in-the-park but vSO is very challenging. Most experienced groups can't complete it, while the elite groups seem to have little problem. Normal MOL is fairly easy for an experienced group, but in vMOL the same experienced groups can't get past the first boss, or rarely the second. There are only a few elite groups that have been able to even complete vMOL. After trying HRC on the PTS, it looks like Zos is going to do the same thing with AA and HRC.

Is Zos really so out of touch with the player base that they have weekly leaderboard trials (vMOL) that only, maybe 20 people TOTAL are capable of completing? What's even the point? Just mail those people the rewards because nobody else is able to go after them. And veteran hard mode is worse still.

It seems to me that veteran mode should be difficult but not impossible to complete for an experienced group. Veteran hard mode should be difficult for an elite group. I think Zos needs to close the difficulty gap between normal and veteran modes and then adjust (if necessary) veteran hard mode so than only a few elites can complete that. That or put the normal versions on the leaderboards - what's the point of having a trial on the leaderboards that 0.0001% of the player base can even finish?

there isn't a huge spike in difficulty. -.-

there is a difficultt increase at first, but then it's not so bad, it's exactly like how it used to be before the update. the problem with remodling content is that the new era of qq'ers accidentally bump into it and immediately want nerfs.

I'll tell you point blank: go run he ra and aa now. Learn the mechanics while they're roflestomp easy. Soon as the patch goes live the normal versions won't have these mehanics, so there is no better time to learn than now. Vet mode will be what it is right now, but with bigger life bars.

They're not MoL is the only uber OP content atm.

There *is* a huge spike in difficulty. If you don't believe me, go through nMOL and then try vMOL. It's night and day. I'll bet 90% of the players can make it through nMOL with guidance and a little practice. Only about 0.0001% of players can make it through vMOL. Sounds like a spike to me.

We have been running AA and HRC because we know it's going to get nerfed/buffed in the update. And the people who have trouble getting through AA and HRC hard mode will be unable to finish veteran mode. That's what I expect, because Zos seems to want to lock out nearly their entire player base from some content for some reason.

jknight201

boggie wrote: »

I think the big problem with the new veteran trials (and why so few groups complete them) is that they are overly dependent on "dps race" mechanics in the fights. In the original trials, having subpar (in this case meaning not pulling 25k+, or the equivalent to that at the time) dps meant that you had to be better at the mechanics. Low dps made the fights harder, sure, but if your group was on top of their game and could handle the mechanics well, you could still clear the content. Contrast that with the first boss in vet Maw- you don't burn him fast enough, and eventually you don't get a pillar and he 1-shots the entire group, or the Ozara fight- don't burn her down fast enough, and she'll eventually pin the entire group killing everyone. It doesn't matter how "good" your group is at handling mechanics- if you don't meet a set benchmark of dps for the group, you WILL fail. No counterplay, and no way around it. This strikes me as a cheap way to artificially inflate the "difficulty" of content, without having to put any real thought into engaging and challenging mechanics.

Yes, that is a good point. Zos level designers seem to have a problem in understanding what "hard" is supposed to look like. MOL is hard, but it's also fun because the difficulty comes from the mechanics. Well, outside vet mode at least. More HP does not equal a satisfying "more difficult" just more annoying.

I think they tried to play to the low completion rates by removing the mechanics from normal mode - and I think that was a huge mistake. They should have just weakened the mechanics to the point that more people could complete them. That would better prepare people for trying the veteran versions. Problem is, people who can complete the normal version - nearly all of them will fail at the veteran version and won't even keep trying. What point does that prove?

OrphanHelgen

You are kind of right where you say that good and experienced players cant beat vet SO, but if you just push the group alittle bit more to the elite part, we are able to farm V sanct hardmode multiple times a night. With still vitality bonus left.

To be completely honest, I love this, and they made a very good difficult balance in the dungeon. I am not a fan of players beeing carried through it with crap gear and no tactics. Finally people actually have to concentrate and focus, and start tryharding with combinding group buffs and gear together. Finally. Hope this stays.

jknight201

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

You are kind of right where you say that good and experienced players cant beat vet SO, but if you just push the group alittle bit more to the elite part, we are able to farm V sanct hardmode multiple times a night. With still vitality bonus left.

To be completely honest, I love this, and they made a very good difficult balance in the dungeon. I am not a fan of players beeing carried through it with crap gear and no tactics. Finally people actually have to concentrate and focus, and start tryharding with combinding group buffs and gear together. Finally. Hope this stays.

Well, I can't speak from anything but my experience. I'm not an elite player, and don't play with elite players. The groups I generally play with are 20-25K+ dps, end-game players. We haven't been able to get past the vSO Manticora yet. I've been in a couple other groups who said they have done vSO - but we were unable to get past the Manticora there either.

Not doubting some people farm vSO, but I'm talking from an overall game perspective - essentially none of the people playing the game can solve vSO. We're talking maybe a hundred or so people (maybe more...) out of hundreds of thousands (millions, if you believe Zos). That's still essentially none in my book. I'm not saying they shouldn't have very challenging content, but it should be "easy, challenging, hard" not "easy, extremely difficult, impossible".

lolo_01b16_ESO

In my opinion vSO and vMoL are fine in terms of difficulty. Today we even had players who never were in SO before and managed to finish hardmode. Our dps was quite low, considering boss + add hp and fight duration the average dps was around 15k on the last boss.
I guess it's hard to complete those trials if noone knows what they are doing, but if you have a few experienced players and the rest listens to them and follows the fight mechanics it's doable with some practise.

OrphanHelgen

jknight201 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

You are kind of right where you say that good and experienced players cant beat vet SO, but if you just push the group alittle bit more to the elite part, we are able to farm V sanct hardmode multiple times a night. With still vitality bonus left.

To be completely honest, I love this, and they made a very good difficult balance in the dungeon. I am not a fan of players beeing carried through it with crap gear and no tactics. Finally people actually have to concentrate and focus, and start tryharding with combinding group buffs and gear together. Finally. Hope this stays.

Well, I can't speak from anything but my experience. I'm not an elite player, and don't play with elite players. The groups I generally play with are 20-25K+ dps, end-game players. We haven't been able to get past the vSO Manticora yet. I've been in a couple other groups who said they have done vSO - but we were unable to get past the Manticora there either.

Not doubting some people farm vSO, but I'm talking from an overall game perspective - essentially none of the people playing the game can solve vSO. We're talking maybe a hundred or so people (maybe more...) out of hundreds of thousands (millions, if you believe Zos). That's still essentially none in my book. I'm not saying they shouldn't have very challenging content, but it should be "easy, challenging, hard" not "easy, extremely difficult, impossible".

Its not impossible at all
And you can get the same loot in normal sanctum, only lower droprate.
We even pulled first timers through it two days ago. 3 people was dead 24/7, we basicly did vet sanctum hardmode with 9 players. Its far from impossible. But like I said, you actually have to use your brain to complete it

We are'nt even elite players compared to the best one out there, who is able to pull above 50k on mantikora. Our players have around 35k dps. Even that is low ish. So if you say your players are around 20k, that seriously low and consider casual players where no serious group buffs or rotations are involved. Like I said, hard dungeons should be worked for to be completed. People with 20k dps dont work, they are lazy. Sry for hard words but its the truth.

Jaronking

I think the problem is that with the base game being so easy a lot of players are not prepared for the endgame content because of how ZOS handled the game.If it was as difficult as before the game wide Nerf I doubt it would be so difficult the game doesn't prepare you for endgame and so ZOS is force to Nerf content or the player base expected them to,because that's all they done.I been in groups who said we won't run this dungeon until they Nerf it or this trial its ridiculous.They need to change this mindset in the game and I think more people will try and will work On completing the new content.

jknight201

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

You are kind of right where you say that good and experienced players cant beat vet SO, but if you just push the group alittle bit more to the elite part, we are able to farm V sanct hardmode multiple times a night. With still vitality bonus left.

To be completely honest, I love this, and they made a very good difficult balance in the dungeon. I am not a fan of players beeing carried through it with crap gear and no tactics. Finally people actually have to concentrate and focus, and start tryharding with combinding group buffs and gear together. Finally. Hope this stays.

Well, I can't speak from anything but my experience. I'm not an elite player, and don't play with elite players. The groups I generally play with are 20-25K+ dps, end-game players. We haven't been able to get past the vSO Manticora yet. I've been in a couple other groups who said they have done vSO - but we were unable to get past the Manticora there either.

Not doubting some people farm vSO, but I'm talking from an overall game perspective - essentially none of the people playing the game can solve vSO. We're talking maybe a hundred or so people (maybe more...) out of hundreds of thousands (millions, if you believe Zos). That's still essentially none in my book. I'm not saying they shouldn't have very challenging content, but it should be "easy, challenging, hard" not "easy, extremely difficult, impossible".

Its not impossible at all
And you can get the same loot in normal sanctum, only lower droprate.
We even pulled first timers through it two days ago. 3 people was dead 24/7, we basicly did vet sanctum hardmode with 9 players. Its far from impossible. But like I said, you actually have to use your brain to complete it

We are'nt even elite players compared to the best one out there, who is able to pull above 50k on mantikora. Our players have around 35k dps. Even that is low ish. So if you say your players are around 20k, that seriously low and consider casual players where no serious group buffs or rotations are involved. Like I said, hard dungeons should be worked for to be completed. People with 20k dps dont work, they are lazy. Sry for hard words but its the truth.

I didn't say it was impossible, just that I have been in many groups on vSO and not a single one could get past the Manticora. Even groups I know play it fairly frequently. Maybe bad luck or, more likely, just bad difficulty scaling.

I hate to tell you but 35K+ DPS is in the elite group. Most normal players are in the 10-12K range. 20K isn't seriously low for sorcs. It is low for the other classes tho. And 20K isn't lazy, again, it's just bad game design on Zos' part. Most players in the game pull 10-12K. Some pull 20K and only a few pull 35K+. Sorry for the hard words, but that is the real truth.

Function

Jaronking wrote: »

I think the problem is that with the base game being so easy a lot of players are not prepared for the endgame content because of how ZOS handled the game.If it was as difficult as before the game wide Nerf I doubt it would be so difficult the game doesn't prepare you for endgame and so ZOS is force to Nerf content or the player base expected them to,because that's all they done.I been in groups who said we won't run this dungeon until they Nerf it or this trial its ridiculous.They need to change this mindset in the game and I think more people will try and will work On completing the new content.

^ This

ZoS has done a poor job preparing people for hard content. There are no group DPS meters, there are no target dummies, and most content is so easy you can pound your fists repeatedly into your keyboard and still succeed in it.

code65536

jknight201 wrote: »

I didn't say it was impossible, just that I have been in many groups on vSO and not a single one could get past the Manticora.

Manti isn't a DPS race. It requires strategy: with the right strategy, it's actually very easy even if your DPS is mediocre. With the wrong strategy, it's a trainwreck even if you have the highest DPS in the world. And it requires a reasonable amount of mechanical awareness.

The thing about trials is that, yes, good DPS is nice, but DPS doesn't mean squat if you don't have a good strategy and/or don't deal with the mechanics properly.

jknight201

code65536 wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

I didn't say it was impossible, just that I have been in many groups on vSO and not a single one could get past the Manticora.

Manti isn't a DPS race. It requires strategy: with the right strategy, it's actually very easy even if your DPS is mediocre. With the wrong strategy, it's a trainwreck even if you have the highest DPS in the world. And it requires a reasonable amount of mechanical awareness.

The thing about trials is that, yes, good DPS is nice, but DPS doesn't mean squat if you don't have a good strategy and/or don't deal with the mechanics properly.

The manti is also about a random number generator. Group wipe because the portal was placed on the main tank. Group wipe because the portal was placed on the off-group. Group wipe because a couple people lagged out and couldn't block the AOE. Group wipe because the off-tank couldn't get to the portal in time. Group wipe because a healer couldn't get to the portal in time. It goes on and on.

It's the same in HRC HM, actually. I agree if you know the mechanics it's not terribly difficult but most people don't want to try two dozen times before everything lines up and they can get past the boss.

code65536

jknight201 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

I didn't say it was impossible, just that I have been in many groups on vSO and not a single one could get past the Manticora.

Manti isn't a DPS race. It requires strategy: with the right strategy, it's actually very easy even if your DPS is mediocre. With the wrong strategy, it's a trainwreck even if you have the highest DPS in the world. And it requires a reasonable amount of mechanical awareness.

The thing about trials is that, yes, good DPS is nice, but DPS doesn't mean squat if you don't have a good strategy and/or don't deal with the mechanics properly.

The manti is also about a random number generator. Group wipe because the portal was placed on the main tank. Group wipe because the portal was placed on the off-group. Group wipe because a couple people lagged out and couldn't block the AOE. Group wipe because the off-tank couldn't get to the portal in time. Group wipe because a healer couldn't get to the portal in time. It goes on and on.

It's the same in HRC HM, actually. I agree if you know the mechanics it's not terribly difficult but most people don't want to try two dozen times before everything lines up and they can get past the boss.

This is what I mean by having the right strategy. With the right strategy, you shouldn't be suffering RNG wipes.

The best way to do Manti is stack-and-burn with people on the outside to draw spears out of the main group, much like how it was done prior to the DB vet revamp. The main difference now is that you do need people to go down and kill the image. You don't need a designated bottom group--the Serpent Image really isn't that difficult. Instead, the portal just swallows up whoever it lands on, and you roll with it.

If it lands on the off-tank, then great, have some DPS join him downstairs. If it lands on the main tank, then the off-tank should be ready to hold the Manti (the off-tank should be a full tank capable of taking over the main tank's job as needed). If it doesn't land on a tank, then the off-tank should go to the portal and jump in. The only time the portal is a problem is if a tank doesn't make it downstairs, but you have control over that, too. If the group spreads out right before the portal spawns, then the portal usually shouldn't swallow up 4 people at the very outset, so there should be an extra portal slot for the off-tank to quickly get to. The image doesn't hit that hard, and a good tank with some self-heals should be able to survive downstairs without a healer (it's actually better if a healer doesn't go down, so that they can keep healing up top, but if one goes down the portal, that's fine too). And then make sure that people are good about moving and avoiding the popcorns, and you'll find that Manti is actually pretty easy.

OrphanHelgen

jknight201 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

You are kind of right where you say that good and experienced players cant beat vet SO, but if you just push the group alittle bit more to the elite part, we are able to farm V sanct hardmode multiple times a night. With still vitality bonus left.

To be completely honest, I love this, and they made a very good difficult balance in the dungeon. I am not a fan of players beeing carried through it with crap gear and no tactics. Finally people actually have to concentrate and focus, and start tryharding with combinding group buffs and gear together. Finally. Hope this stays.

Well, I can't speak from anything but my experience. I'm not an elite player, and don't play with elite players. The groups I generally play with are 20-25K+ dps, end-game players. We haven't been able to get past the vSO Manticora yet. I've been in a couple other groups who said they have done vSO - but we were unable to get past the Manticora there either.

Not doubting some people farm vSO, but I'm talking from an overall game perspective - essentially none of the people playing the game can solve vSO. We're talking maybe a hundred or so people (maybe more...) out of hundreds of thousands (millions, if you believe Zos). That's still essentially none in my book. I'm not saying they shouldn't have very challenging content, but it should be "easy, challenging, hard" not "easy, extremely difficult, impossible".

Its not impossible at all
And you can get the same loot in normal sanctum, only lower droprate.
We even pulled first timers through it two days ago. 3 people was dead 24/7, we basicly did vet sanctum hardmode with 9 players. Its far from impossible. But like I said, you actually have to use your brain to complete it

We are'nt even elite players compared to the best one out there, who is able to pull above 50k on mantikora. Our players have around 35k dps. Even that is low ish. So if you say your players are around 20k, that seriously low and consider casual players where no serious group buffs or rotations are involved. Like I said, hard dungeons should be worked for to be completed. People with 20k dps dont work, they are lazy. Sry for hard words but its the truth.

I didn't say it was impossible, just that I have been in many groups on vSO and not a single one could get past the Manticora. Even groups I know play it fairly frequently. Maybe bad luck or, more likely, just bad difficulty scaling.

I hate to tell you but 35K+ DPS is in the elite group. Most normal players are in the 10-12K range. 20K isn't seriously low for sorcs. It is low for the other classes tho. And 20K isn't lazy, again, it's just bad game design on Zos' part. Most players in the game pull 10-12K. Some pull 20K and only a few pull 35K+. Sorry for the hard words, but that is the real truth.

Yeah you are maybe right, sorry. I have been playing for too long, never get satisfied by the dps. Always want to push more you know. I guess 35k are pretty good, I just forget it sometimes.

dday3six

Jaronking wrote: »

I think the problem is that with the base game being so easy a lot of players are not prepared for the endgame content because of how ZOS handled the game.If it was as difficult as before the game wide Nerf I doubt it would be so difficult the game doesn't prepare you for endgame and so ZOS is force to Nerf content or the player base expected them to,because that's all they done.I been in groups who said we won't run this dungeon until they Nerf it or this trial its ridiculous.They need to change this mindset in the game and I think more people will try and will work On completing the new content.

I echo this sentiment. Little in the mostly single player game trains players how to tackle group content.

Jaronking

dday3six wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

I think the problem is that with the base game being so easy a lot of players are not prepared for the endgame content because of how ZOS handled the game.If it was as difficult as before the game wide Nerf I doubt it would be so difficult the game doesn't prepare you for endgame and so ZOS is force to Nerf content or the player base expected them to,because that's all they done.I been in groups who said we won't run this dungeon until they Nerf it or this trial its ridiculous.They need to change this mindset in the game and I think more people will try and will work On completing the new content.

I echo this sentiment. Little in the mostly single player game trains players how to tackle group content.

Truthfully it shouldn't be the case the single player portion of the game which used to be smaller should have all the information you need to play the end game group content and what works and will not work.For example a stamina magica hybrid 2 hand restro staffs do not work.The game isn't design for that.Either ZOs need to make a choice prepare players for endgame add mechanics that teaches them how to play the game.

Foxic

Compared to other mmos, the trials in eso are actually not very difficult. The problem is like a few others have said there is no intermediate content in which to train and work your way up. The problem isn't that the content is too hard, it's that the playerbase hasn't had a decent challenge since trials were first released and in turn most of the serious pve players have left the game.

At the end of the day I am happy with the difficulty level if the content. You should strive to get better and complete it, not ask for it to be easier.

Foxic

jknight201 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

You are kind of right where you say that good and experienced players cant beat vet SO, but if you just push the group alittle bit more to the elite part, we are able to farm V sanct hardmode multiple times a night. With still vitality bonus left.

To be completely honest, I love this, and they made a very good difficult balance in the dungeon. I am not a fan of players beeing carried through it with crap gear and no tactics. Finally people actually have to concentrate and focus, and start tryharding with combinding group buffs and gear together. Finally. Hope this stays.

Well, I can't speak from anything but my experience. I'm not an elite player, and don't play with elite players. The groups I generally play with are 20-25K+ dps, end-game players. We haven't been able to get past the vSO Manticora yet. I've been in a couple other groups who said they have done vSO - but we were unable to get past the Manticora there either.

Not doubting some people farm vSO, but I'm talking from an overall game perspective - essentially none of the people playing the game can solve vSO. We're talking maybe a hundred or so people (maybe more...) out of hundreds of thousands (millions, if you believe Zos). That's still essentially none in my book. I'm not saying they shouldn't have very challenging content, but it should be "easy, challenging, hard" not "easy, extremely difficult, impossible".

Its not impossible at all
And you can get the same loot in normal sanctum, only lower droprate.
We even pulled first timers through it two days ago. 3 people was dead 24/7, we basicly did vet sanctum hardmode with 9 players. Its far from impossible. But like I said, you actually have to use your brain to complete it

We are'nt even elite players compared to the best one out there, who is able to pull above 50k on mantikora. Our players have around 35k dps. Even that is low ish. So if you say your players are around 20k, that seriously low and consider casual players where no serious group buffs or rotations are involved. Like I said, hard dungeons should be worked for to be completed. People with 20k dps dont work, they are lazy. Sry for hard words but its the truth.

I didn't say it was impossible, just that I have been in many groups on vSO and not a single one could get past the Manticora. Even groups I know play it fairly frequently. Maybe bad luck or, more likely, just bad difficulty scaling.

I hate to tell you but 35K+ DPS is in the elite group. Most normal players are in the 10-12K range. 20K isn't seriously low for sorcs. It is low for the other classes tho. And 20K isn't lazy, again, it's just bad game design on Zos' part. Most players in the game pull 10-12K. Some pull 20K and only a few pull 35K+. Sorry for the hard words, but that is the real truth.

Endgame content should not be balanced to the lowest common denominator. And how are you still spouting that sorcs pull that low dps when I know that people in another thread helped you completely revamp your build out of the kindness of their heart

jknight201

code65536 wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

I didn't say it was impossible, just that I have been in many groups on vSO and not a single one could get past the Manticora.

Manti isn't a DPS race. It requires strategy: with the right strategy, it's actually very easy even if your DPS is mediocre. With the wrong strategy, it's a trainwreck even if you have the highest DPS in the world. And it requires a reasonable amount of mechanical awareness.

The thing about trials is that, yes, good DPS is nice, but DPS doesn't mean squat if you don't have a good strategy and/or don't deal with the mechanics properly.

The manti is also about a random number generator. Group wipe because the portal was placed on the main tank. Group wipe because the portal was placed on the off-group. Group wipe because a couple people lagged out and couldn't block the AOE. Group wipe because the off-tank couldn't get to the portal in time. Group wipe because a healer couldn't get to the portal in time. It goes on and on.

It's the same in HRC HM, actually. I agree if you know the mechanics it's not terribly difficult but most people don't want to try two dozen times before everything lines up and they can get past the boss.

This is what I mean by having the right strategy. With the right strategy, you shouldn't be suffering RNG wipes.

The best way to do Manti is stack-and-burn with people on the outside to draw spears out of the main group, much like how it was done prior to the DB vet revamp. The main difference now is that you do need people to go down and kill the image. You don't need a designated bottom group--the Serpent Image really isn't that difficult. Instead, the portal just swallows up whoever it lands on, and you roll with it.

If it lands on the off-tank, then great, have some DPS join him downstairs. If it lands on the main tank, then the off-tank should be ready to hold the Manti (the off-tank should be a full tank capable of taking over the main tank's job as needed). If it doesn't land on a tank, then the off-tank should go to the portal and jump in. The only time the portal is a problem is if a tank doesn't make it downstairs, but you have control over that, too. If the group spreads out right before the portal spawns, then the portal usually shouldn't swallow up 4 people at the very outset, so there should be an extra portal slot for the off-tank to quickly get to. The image doesn't hit that hard, and a good tank with some self-heals should be able to survive downstairs without a healer (it's actually better if a healer doesn't go down, so that they can keep healing up top, but if one goes down the portal, that's fine too). And then make sure that people are good about moving and avoiding the popcorns, and you'll find that Manti is actually pretty easy.

Yeah, I know the mechanics of the fight, but it is easy to wipe with bad RNG. Or just bad luck. It is insanely easy to wipe on that fight - it doesn't take much. And it is a fairly long fight for an average or low dps group.

I wouldn't say that the fight is easy - like I said, I've been in many, many groups that can't make it past the manti. Does that mean they are bad? No, it just means that there is a significant RNG component to the fight.

jknight201

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

You are kind of right where you say that good and experienced players cant beat vet SO, but if you just push the group alittle bit more to the elite part, we are able to farm V sanct hardmode multiple times a night. With still vitality bonus left.

To be completely honest, I love this, and they made a very good difficult balance in the dungeon. I am not a fan of players beeing carried through it with crap gear and no tactics. Finally people actually have to concentrate and focus, and start tryharding with combinding group buffs and gear together. Finally. Hope this stays.

Well, I can't speak from anything but my experience. I'm not an elite player, and don't play with elite players. The groups I generally play with are 20-25K+ dps, end-game players. We haven't been able to get past the vSO Manticora yet. I've been in a couple other groups who said they have done vSO - but we were unable to get past the Manticora there either.

Not doubting some people farm vSO, but I'm talking from an overall game perspective - essentially none of the people playing the game can solve vSO. We're talking maybe a hundred or so people (maybe more...) out of hundreds of thousands (millions, if you believe Zos). That's still essentially none in my book. I'm not saying they shouldn't have very challenging content, but it should be "easy, challenging, hard" not "easy, extremely difficult, impossible".

Its not impossible at all
And you can get the same loot in normal sanctum, only lower droprate.
We even pulled first timers through it two days ago. 3 people was dead 24/7, we basicly did vet sanctum hardmode with 9 players. Its far from impossible. But like I said, you actually have to use your brain to complete it

We are'nt even elite players compared to the best one out there, who is able to pull above 50k on mantikora. Our players have around 35k dps. Even that is low ish. So if you say your players are around 20k, that seriously low and consider casual players where no serious group buffs or rotations are involved. Like I said, hard dungeons should be worked for to be completed. People with 20k dps dont work, they are lazy. Sry for hard words but its the truth.

I didn't say it was impossible, just that I have been in many groups on vSO and not a single one could get past the Manticora. Even groups I know play it fairly frequently. Maybe bad luck or, more likely, just bad difficulty scaling.

I hate to tell you but 35K+ DPS is in the elite group. Most normal players are in the 10-12K range. 20K isn't seriously low for sorcs. It is low for the other classes tho. And 20K isn't lazy, again, it's just bad game design on Zos' part. Most players in the game pull 10-12K. Some pull 20K and only a few pull 35K+. Sorry for the hard words, but that is the real truth.

Endgame content should not be balanced to the lowest common denominator. And how are you still spouting that sorcs pull that low dps when I know that people in another thread helped you completely revamp your build out of the kindness of their heart

I'm not saying end-game content should be balanced to the lowest common denominator. I *am* saying that end-game content should be balanced such that more than 0.00001% of the players can complete it. vMOL is a perfect example. We're looking at maybe a couple dozen people who can complete it out of ... couple hundred thousand players maybe? That's just insanely stupid.

Did someone from the forums help me with my sorc dps? Yep, they sure did and I learned from it and improved. I appreciate that. But I'm not backtracking on the claim that sorcs do less dps than the other classes for most players and I'm certainly not backtracking on the fact that most sorc players I play with are lucky to pull 20K dps in a fight. Even with the help I'm just above 25K dps in a sustained fight and that doesn't compare to the Templars and DKs I play with. You can like it or not, but that is the harsh reality of this game.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

Khajiit looks forward to the challenge as this one will enjoy the fight. This one feels that maybe there should be 5 levels overall for each trial though:

Current Normal (CN) is level 1
Between CN and vLevel is 2
vLevel of the Trial is 3
vHard Mode is 4
Nightmare mode is 5

This way every group can find a level of trial which they can run, and they can then work up the levels. Nightmare mode should not just be more health of adds and bosses. There should maybe be an extra mechanic to each boss that makes the group think even more.

Levels 3, 4 and 5 would have leaderboards and rewards weighted more heavily to the higher level because you have be pretty much like Rajhin himself, swift and clever to complete the content.

Contraptions

The main issue that I have with the veteran modes of trials in this game is that they are simply overtuned versions of normal. I don't mind complicated mechanics usually, was in a group that could complete the original SO, but was disappointed to see that normal mode had mechanics cut, while vet mode was made more difficult by simply multiplying the health and damage of mobs up. It's just boring really.

I don't like how most mobs in vet trials are just damage sponges, it just feels tedious to have to cut through 1-3 million worth of health for every. single. bannerman. I want mechanics, I want coordination, not damage sponges, dps races and one shots. The original trials were great. The new ones are ridiculous and unfun.

andy_s

I agree that the difficulty difference between normal and veteran is very huge. Normal is very boring for people who have some experience in game, but veteran is too hard, because, vMoL, for example, requires a very coordinated group, 1 replacement and everything goes wrong. I think the best solution would be to have 3 difficulties: normal, veteran and hardmode, where veteran is easier and hardmode is slightly harder than current veteran for those guilds, who already find veteran easy

DRXHarbinger

Christ everyone stop quoting the 1st post. Rakes forever to scrolls down.

VMoL isn't that hard imo it's just very very boring and people switch off. That fight before the 2nd boss it's just a long slug fest. Wave after wave and it's dull.

Vet sanctum really threw us. Smashed normal and went back to vet...The Mantikora is a different animal all together. Old mechanics too. ZOS it wasn't these mechanics that threw a lot of people it was the popcorn and suckerpunch instakill. Ozara is a lot lot tankier but a good strategy will see you through it. You need 2 tanks for this fight ideally.

Last boss. ..Meh. ..stack and burn as always. Scream the mantikora comes out burn it down and stack back up.

AA though will be interesting. Tanking 5 axes is already very very hard. Adding 200% more damage into it I'm. Not sure how hard mode will work.

Hel Ra. .well zerg bomb all the adds ads, and hope for no nasty changes with the bosses I don't see any issues with it. Last boss is just a dps race. Once he loses the plot and gets angry it may get hard.

Dagoth_Rac

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Our players have around 35k dps. Even that is low ish.

35K DPS is more than probably 99.99% of players in the game. It is not even remotely "low-ish". This is like a .330 career hitter in the baseball hall of fame talking about how his batting average is "low-ish" compared to Ted Williams. Or a hedge fund manager making $100,000,000 talking about his income being "low-ish" because there are some guys in bigger mansions making $250,000,000. These are people so far at the extreme end of the bell curve they have an utterly warped sense of what is "normal".

There is a really uncomfortable and discouraging gap in the PvE for this game. Everything is either easy enough to be completed by almost everyone or it is at the opposite end and is impossible for almost everyone!

Totalitarian

andy.s wrote: »

I think the best solution would be to have 3 difficulties: normal, veteran and hardmode

They could probably implement this by nerfing the Vet mode , and then adding a hardmode button, or similar object right at the beginning of the trial.

Maybe make everyone have to use the hardmode switch to enable hardmode, to prevent trolling on hardmode.

KingArthasMenethil

Totalitarian wrote: »

andy.s wrote: »

I think the best solution would be to have 3 difficulties: normal, veteran and hardmode

They could probably implement this by nerfing the Vet mode , and then adding a hardmode button, or similar object right at the beginning of the trial.

Maybe make everyone have to use the hardmode switch to enable hardmode, to prevent trolling on hardmode.

No switch or button we already have the Hard mode before the end boss. if we wanted something harder then Veteran then add another mode not just something at the start which will probably bug out one day and annoy everyone to hell and back.